Optimized Skillmonkey.

[D4rkh0rus]

Im probably assuming everyone will say choose factotum. And I agree, Adding Dark template too.

but wouldn't going factotum 3/cloistered cleric 1/rogue 13/uncanny trickster
with able learner be a tad better?


Whats GitP's opinion on stacking Iaijutsu focus with Sneak attack (Gnomish Quickrazor) for full attacks (TWF). craven thrown in too.
What else can be added?

Do note that I want to primarily make a skill monkey, (Im thinking of maxing at least 12 skills and having a few ranks (5+ in at least 1) in knowledge skills for devotion).

Other than starting as a Human with 18 Int and getting the first 2 lvl up points in int... what can I do to get more skills? (Exalted feats are out. DM doesn't like them, other than that pretty much every other book is allowed, dragon comp. is only allowed for feats, acfs/classes/etc and anything that isnt a feat is not allowed from dragon mag.)

I don't need to deal lots of dmg, but the more the merrier, only one caveat though... TWF. I want to use TWF.


What suggestions do you guys have?
(I would also like to add that I hate classes that have 1 lvl in diff classes, Id put a max amount of classes to 5 or 6 in total, including dips)

[OldTrees1]

Maybe add
Totemist 1 (2 Soulmelds: Lamia Belt & Krenshar Mask or Kruthik Claws & Shadow Mantle) / Umbral Disciple 3

Totemist gives you +4 to 1-2 skills and +6 to 2 skills
Jump & Move Silently, Bluff & Hide or Listen, Hide & Move Silently
Umbral Disciple gives you 20% concealment and Hide in Plain Sight (that works even when the dark template doesn't)

Alternatively you can enter Umbral Disciple by taking 1 of the Incarum feats that grants essentia. In that case it is 30% concealment but lacks the skill boosts Totemist would grant.

[Gwendol]

Why not go daring outlaw? Easy on the swash, heavy on the rogue. You get Int to damage and don't lose out on the SA damage.

I like your build though; go for it!

[Zovc]

Why not go daring outlaw? Easy on the swash, heavy on the rogue. You get Int to damage and don't lose out on the SA damage.

I like your build though; go for it!

That probably is a good way to get more mileage out of rogue levels, and with a quick glance, doesn't look like it would cost much.

[sideswipe]

If you want skills and nothing more..... and you don't care about the potential power you could have lost. take 2 flaws, 2 from start human, 6 from levels up..... and take open minded 10 times for 50 skill points. That's the equivalent to (on average) 4 extra levels of skill points from your build :smallbiggrin:

... totally worth it...

[D4rkh0rus]

If you want skills and nothing more..... and you don't care about the potential power you could have lost. take 2 flaws, 2 from start human, 6 from levels up..... and take open minded 10 times for 50 skill points. That's the equivalent to (on average) 4 extra levels of skill points from your build :smallbiggrin:

... totally worth it...

Open minded is a curse upon the world of feats. no. I won't be doing that.
Between TWF, weapon finesse, craven, and stuff... I probably wont have the feats.

[D4rkh0rus]

Maybe add
Totemist 1 (2 Soulmelds: Lamia Belt & Krenshar Mask or Kruthik Claws & Shadow Mantle) / Umbral Disciple 3

Totemist gives you +4 to 1-2 skills and +6 to 2 skills
Jump & Move Silently, Bluff & Hide or Listen, Hide & Move Silently
Umbral Disciple gives you 20% concealment and Hide in Plain Sight (that works even when the dark template doesn't)

Alternatively you can enter Umbral Disciple by taking 1 of the Incarum feats that grants essentia. In that case it is 30% concealment but lacks the skill boosts Totemist would grant.

I like that.
is incarnum ex or su? (Im wanting to make a skillmonkey that can do his job inside a city thats sourrounded by a ginormous antimagic field. (ie the whole city is covered, and if something that was magical leaves the city, a small number of mages know. from exactly where it left).

So basically a Skillmonkey that can be a skill monkey in an antimagic field.

[OldTrees1]

I like that.
is incarnum ex or su? (Im wanting to make a skillmonkey that can do his job inside a city thats sourrounded by a ginormous antimagic field. (ie the whole city is covered, and if something that was magical leaves the city, a small number of mages know. from exactly where it left).

So basically a Skillmonkey that can be a skill monkey in an antimagic field.

SU unfortunately. Ex Hide in Plain Sight is harder to get. It takes a high level Ranger or 2 Wilderness Rogue Special Abilities (13th level Wilderness Rogue)

[D4rkh0rus]

SU unfortunately. Ex Hide in Plain Sight is harder to get. It takes a high level Ranger or 2 Wilderness Rogue Special Abilities (13th level Wilderness Rogue)

dark template gives HipS (ex)

[OldTrees1]

dark template gives HipS (ex)

But it is foiled by mere daylight.
Also if you have the Tome of Magic version, it still requires cover/concealment.

[prufock]

Are you just going for max skill points or what?

Nymph's Kiss gives you 1 bonus skill point from the level you take it onwards. Best taken at level 1. Also gives you +2 to all charisma-based skills.

Changeling Rogue substitution level gives you 10+int instead of 8+int at level 1, 3, and 8. Better than human if you're grabbing 13 levels of rogue anyway. Better than human up to level 9, parity at 10, worse than human after that. Has some nifty social skill abilities as well, but you lose the bonus feat.

One level of factotum + Able Learner makes all skills class skills.

And Item Familiar, of course!

[sideswipe]

Are you just going for max skill points or what?

Nymph's Kiss gives you 1 bonus skill point from the level you take it onwards. Best taken at level 1. Also gives you +2 to all charisma-based skills.

Changeling Rogue substitution level gives you 10+int instead of 8+int at level 1, 3, and 8. Better than human if you're grabbing 13 levels of rogue anyway. Better than human up to level 9, parity at 10, worse than human after that. Has some nifty social skill abilities as well, but you lose the bonus feat.

One level of factotum + Able Learner makes all skills class skills.

And Item Familiar, of course!

unfortunately, he already said exalted feats are out. so no nymphs kiss.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

With that much Rogue, Changeling should end up with more skill points than human.

[OldTrees1]

With that much Rogue, Changeling should end up with more skill points than human.

Racial Substituitions only affect the level they are taken. Changling Rogues (1st, 3rd and 8th level subs) get a net of 12 skill points over a Dwarf. A 13th level Human Rogue has more skillpoints than a 13th level Changeling Rogue

[Chronos]

Skillmonkey optimization does often involve stacking lots of dips together. If you're going to use incarnum, though (it's a good idea, since most places aren't in an antimagic field), incarnate is much better than totemist. Incarnate gives you a wider selection of useful skills, and incarnate melds are insight bonuses, as opposed to the totemist's competence bonuses. Competence bonuses can be easily gotten from items or spells, but insight bonuses are much rarer, and thus more valuable.

[Piggy Knowles]

I agree re: incarnates versus totemists, with one exception: Spot checks. Totemists get three separate and stacking soulmelds that boost Spot without interfering significantly with items. They can get absolutely outrageous Spot checks when built for it.

[OldTrees1]

RE Totemist 1 dip vs Incarnate 1 dip

Why did they have to print the Incarnate soulmelds in 2 tables?

Incarnate
Thefts Gloves
+2 bonus on Disable Device, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand checks
Truthseeker Goggles
+2 bonus on Gather Information, Search, and Sense Motive checks
1 Essentia
+2 bonus to one soulmeld

Totemist
Krenshar Mask
+4 Jump, +4 Move Silently
Lamia Belt
+4 Bluff, +4 Hide
1 Essentia
+2 bonus to one soulmeld

Total Bonus: +18 Incarnate vs +20 Totemist

[Fouredged Sword]

Cleric 20. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar make skill checks a joke.

[OldTrees1]

Cleric 20. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar make skill checks a joke.

Yeah, only if you burn 2 2nd level slots per relevant skill check. I doubt you have the slots as a Cleric 20 unless you are the backup skillmonky.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Illumian (Krau/anything), Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ Ultimate Magus 10/ full casting 5, with Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, and Versatile Spellcaster.

It's a 19/20 Wizard that gets the Beguiler class skill list. You're Int-SAD so even with only two base skill points/level you can still be a respectable skillmonkey. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and can take Able Learner. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you've learned of one level higher, giving you spontaneous access to up to 5th level Wizard spells, as well as up to 5th level Beguiler spells. Between spells and skills, this character will almost always have a solution to anything he runs into. Those last five levels can include a fifth Wizard level for Spontaneous Divination, and four Incantatrix levels for persistent spell shenanigans. You can even prohibit Necromancy from Beguiler when taking Incantatrix, even though it will advance your Wizard casting.


Barring that, a Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 is probably the best dedicated skillmonkey you can get. The Beguiler spell list is the biggest toolbox of solutions to difficult situations, and it's Int-SAD with a respectable number of base skill points/level.


Cloistered Cleric 20 with the Kobold and Trickery domains is another amazing skillmonkey, especially with the Whispered Secrets initiate feat. Get a Wand of Guidance of the Avatar, at only 90 gp per charge for +20 to a skill check you can't really go wrong.

[Person_Man]

Many different combinations of Beguiler, Bard, Factotum, Totemist, Incarnate, and/or Binder will result in very high Skill check bonuses. (There are also some other more somewhat more limited or obscure options you might want to consider, like Urban Druid from the Dungeon Compendium or Wildshape Ranger from Unearthed Arcana or Psychic Rogue from online. But I'll try and stick to what has already mentioned). Specific things you may wish to keep in mind:


If you're playing a mid-high level campaign, you'll want to enter a prestige class that progresses your chakra binds, vestiges, or spells. Otherwise, you'll just have a jumble of low level abilities when your fellow party members have superior high level abilities/spells/etc. For Totemist and/or Incarnate, that means Ironsoul Forgemaster, Necrocarnate, Soulcaster, Soul Manifester, or Totem Rager. For Binder, it would mean Anima Mage, Knight of the Sacred Seal, Scion of or Dantalion. For Bard, it usually means Sublime Chord. What combination of classes and prestige classes you use should generally be dictated by what Skills you want to use the most.


Factotum is best at low-mid levels with Str and Dex based Skills, when the bonus from Str or Dex + Int is most useful. At higher levels you'll end up facing MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) issues, as it's difficult/expensive to keep more then one attribute maxed out.


Bard is best for Cha based Skills (especially Bluff, thanks to the Glibness spell) and can cover any Skill at high levels thanks to Bardic Knack (PHBII variant) and Improvisation (Bard 1 spell from Spell Compendium, gives a large floating Luck bonus to Skills based on your caster level).


Totemist is best at buffing Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Handle Animal, and Wild Empathy. So he's really good at ambushing enemies or interacting with animals and magical beasts. His most notable Skill Moneky-ish related soulmelds are Shadow Mantle (which when bound to your Shoulders chakra provides a really cool/weird Sphere of Darkness which basically provides continuous Greater Invisibility), Phase Cloak (which when bound to your Shoulders makes your movement Ethereal, which lets you move through walls, avoid attacks of opportunity, and fly), Shedu Crown (when bound to Crown chakra it gives you Telepathy), and Disenchanter Mask (at-will Detect Magic).


Incarnate can buff most Skills, with the notable exceptions of not being able to buff Disguise, Survival, and most Knowledge Skills. His most notable Skill Monkey-ish related soulmelds are Silvertongue Mask (when bound to your Throat chakra it gives you at-will Suggestion), Theft Gloves (bound to Hands chakra provides Trapfinding), Enigma Helm (provides Non-Detection), and Necrocarnum Circlet (Detect Undead, and when bound to Crown chakra you can create no cost Necrocarnum Zombies from any recently dead creature, which allows you to use any Skill that the creature possessed - particularly useful if you reanimate something with a high Spot/Listen bonus.


Binder can also buff most Skills, though the bonuses usually don't scale well. Most notable Skill Monkey-ish related vestiges are Andromalius (Locate Object, See Invisibility, Sense Trickery), Balam (at-will re-rolls, which basically works out to a +4ish bonus any check), Dantalion (Knowledge bonus, Read Thoughts, teleportation, Halphax (massive Knowledge bonus, but very late in his progression), Haures (Incorporeal movement, Major Image), Malphas (infinite raven scout, at-will Invisibility, Naberius (massive Disguise Self and massively reduces the rushed Diplomacy penalty), Tenebrous (Deeper Darkness provides poorly worded concealment which you can Hide in), and Zceryll (at-will Summons, which by itself pushes Binder up to Tier 2).


Beguilers are excellent Skill Monkeys, but they don't get any particularly big bonuses to any specific Skill. They're mostly useful for easy access to Illusions and Dominate magic, which also having a good Skill list.


Chosen of Evil Feat from Elder Evils: As an Immediate Action take a point of Constitution damage to gain an Insight bonus equal to the number of Vile feats you have (including this one) to any attack, Save, ability check, or Skill check. There are actually a lot of potent Vile feats, so you could just load up them, and gain a great floating Insight bonus to pretty much anything. You can prevent ability score damage with Strongheart Vest Incarnate soulmeld, or heal it every round with 1 level of Binder for the Naberius vestige, or just get access to the Restoration spell and use the Feat more sparingly. But note that many soulmelds provide an Insight bonus, so be careful about stacking issues.


Item Familiar Feat from Unearthed Arcana can give you a large scaled bonus to any 1 Skill.


I personally would not suggest using Iaijutsu Focus or the Dark template in a real game. Both options are very high cheese, and it's a lot of resources to get them to work well, for a mediocre damage output. Honestly, any Tier 3 build is going to have much better things to do with it's actions.

[Chronos]

Keep in mind that most skillmonkey classes get UMD, and wands are cheap and easy to activate, so if you want any particular spell (like Guidance of the Avatar), you can generally get it even without being a full caster.

[Soranar]

Personally I hate relying on sneak attack in general , even for a rogue. In ranged too many things are immune to it and it's difficult to make it work.

In close combat you can use the ACF to make half your SA damage vs a flanked opponent which has its own set of problems

your build is so fragile that if you miss (or your opponent survives the first round of attack) you are now very close to a dangerous foe

Which is why I prefer using the martial rogue ACF (can be found on SRD) and make a mounted combattant out of my character

the bonus fighter feats make it very easy to pull off the combo by level 1 (with room to spare for wild cohort with a strongheart halfling, in that case I strongly recommend a riding dog)

combine this with the slow trait (which grants you an extra hp at basically no cost since you ride everywhere on your medium dog) and you have a fairly sturdy skillmonkey with no need for hide and move silently.

An ubercharger also works against anything and stays relatively safe in combat with ride by attack

with x8 skillpoints and no need for hide or move silently you have a walking lockpick/trapmonkey/face on the cheap with little need for emphasis on INT.