Cerebremancer Optimization

[alaalba_123]

In the tier system (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0l) Cebremancers are listed as -1. Why? What would you do to improve one? I saw it, and without ever playing with one would have listed it as +1. I'm interested in using it and it seems to me the best way to do it would be to play a wizard specialize in something, then, multiclass Psion and choose the Psionic equivalent of the more useful of your barred schools. Are the Bonus Feats you lose just that important? What race would be the best for a build like this? Is the increased Powers/Spells too many to actually use all of them in most scenarios? I'm actually considering doing this, and would like to know if I'm making an awful mistake ahead of time.

[vhfforever]

It, like most theurge classes, just doesn't get much else over what you could have acquired by sticking with a single class; and, unless something is just completely slipping my mind...without early entry or fast progression, there's no dual-9's possibility after you finish the class.

Yes, your options will be near limitless, but no more so than single-classing with either of the component parts.

[Psyren]

I disagree, it has several potent advantages over most theurges. And it certainly can benefit wizards, such as by getting them Time Stop 3 levels early. It just tends to be overshadowed/discounted because StP Erudite exists.

- It is SAD with its logical entry classes.
- It gives wizards the one thing they can't get enough of (more actions - in addition to time stop, there is also synchronicity/schism/anticipatory strike etc.)
- At high levels, you can become a full-powered ML 20 Psion at any time (Mental Pinnacle.)
- Even without early entry you will not lag behind the party in power (just use Practiced Manifester/Overchannel and rely on augmentable powers while you level your Wizard side.)
- Psionics is better at some things than magic (unobtrusive telepathy, clairsentience, space/time travel, self-healing in survival campaigns.)
- You can more easily ban schools like enchantment and evocation.

[SaintNick]

I once ran a 1 wizard(conjuration)/3 psion(telepath) /1 cerebremancer/1 mindbender/X cerebremancer Tibbit. I thought the idea of a telepathic cat would be entertaining.

Feats included Precocious Apprentice, Practiced Spellcasting, Surrogate Spellcasting, Psicrystal Affinity, and Mindsight for starters. I think it also grabbed Abrupt Jaunt and Improved Initiative via a couple alternative class features as well.

It's not as strong as a full caster/manifester, but it was fun and didn't overshadow the rest of the group since I focused mainly on stealth/scouting and crowd control.

[(Un)Inspired]

Its actually possible to get level 9 powers and spells using cerebremancer without that much trouble. Wizard/Ardent/Cerebremancer is probably the easiest way.

[Psyren]

More importantly, 9th-level powers don't mean as much as 9th-level spells do thanks to augmentation. There's no game-changer like Gate or Shapechange at the end of that road. (Well, there's GM, but only if you're an egoist.) There's Reality Revision, but that's too expensive to cast regularly and it's redundant with Wish besides.

So a Cerebremancer has a pretty easy choice ahead of him - barring Dragon material, he can only cap the power level of one of his entry classes, and a wizard's power depends more on hitting that top end than a psion's does.

[Rubik]

Its actually possible to get level 9 powers and spells using cerebremancer without that much trouble. Wizard/Ardent/Cerebremancer is probably the easiest way.Yeah, but then you have to play an ardent, and one without Dominant Ideal.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm just saying it's possible

[alaalba_123]

Currently I'm working with OGC, but will be acquiring all three Core books (DMG, PHB, and MM), plus CP and XPH, all before this Campaign starts, and can acquire anything else necessary. Starting at ECL 5 and using the Flaws and LA buyoff(Assume enough XP to buyoff LA +1 at level 3, and still start at level 5) rules from Unearthed Arcana what should my starting build look like, and what should my progression from there look like. Homebrew from dandwiki is allowed, but must all be run past DM, and should be seriously limited. I'm looking for the most effective build possible, as the other players in this campaign are into heavy optimization, and like Tier 1/Tier 2 classes. I like the concept of a Cerebremancer, and would like to play it, and this is the only group I play in where the DM wouldn't immediately go, "Too broken. No."

[Amphetryon]

The main problem with most theurge Classes is that, outside of a few specific exceptions, the action economy still acts as a hard limiter on what you're actually doing in the Round. Even if you choose Powers that don't directly mimic Spells you've taken on the Wizard side, you generally have to delve into Synchronicity/Schism (ab)use to wind up with a net positive return in the action economy over what you'd get playing, for example, a straight Summoner-type.

[Xar Zarath]

Would the OP want to try PF Cerebremancer? Its got feasible class features and still has full casting. IMO it at least does not have dead levels.

[Segev]

Warning: incoming Velveeta.

This isn't the cheesiest way to achieve the main part of the build, but the main part is so cheesy that most Italian restaurants would never use it up in a decade.

Elan Psion 5 with Metamorphic Transfer. Pay a wizard to PAO you into a Beholder. Beholder Mage 2 for levels 6 and 7. Level 8 through 15, Cerebremancer: advance Beholder Mage 3-10 and Psion 6-13. You're now level 15, have level 9 spells, level 7 powers, can cast 10 spells (one of each level 0-9) and manifest one power (that you know, of course) every round.

[alaalba_123]

Would the OP want to try PF Cerebremancer? Its got feasible class features and still has full casting. IMO it at least does not have dead levels.

I would definitely like to try that, seeing as it's only drawback compared to 3.5 is save bonuses (or am I missing something?), and this DM will definitely allow it.

[alaalba_123]

Warning: incoming Velveeta.

This isn't the cheesiest way to achieve the main part of the build, but the main part is so cheesy that most Italian restaurants would never use it up in a decade.

Elan Psion 5 with Metamorphic Transfer. Pay a wizard to PAO you into a Beholder. Beholder Mage 2 for levels 6 and 7. Level 8 through 15, Cerebremancer: advance Beholder Mage 3-10 and Psion 6-13. You're now level 15, have level 9 spells, level 7 powers, can cast 10 spells (one of each level 0-9) and manifest one power (that you know, of course) every round.

No. I'm not willing to break things this much even if DM would allow it, which I doubt.

So, with this disallowed, and base available stats of 15,15,13,16,14,17

I'm thinking

STR-13
CON-15
DEX-14
WIS-16
INT-18
CHA-15

With class levels in Wizard/Psion

Psion-Seer(Clairsentience)
Wizard-Evocation, barring Divination and Enchantment

Probably an Elan, so that would drop CHA to 13
Flaws: Feeble, Frail

Feats:Spell Focus(Evocation), Overchannel, Quicken Power, Magical Aptitude,Scribe Tattoo

Traits:Quick, Focused

Familiar: Toad

And probably, Wizard 3/Psion 2

[Psyren]

I'd swap the Wis and Dex personally. (Your stats are really high, did you guys roll or just get that array to assign?)

[Divide by Zero]

Are you determined to be an Evoker? Psionics are pretty good at blasting already, it'd make more sense to specialize in something they can't do well like Illusion or Necromancy (or just go for the standard Conjuration or Transmutation because they're good regardless). Also, you can't drop Divination.

[Craft (Cheese)]

More importantly, 9th-level powers don't mean as much as 9th-level spells do thanks to augmentation. There's no game-changer like Gate or Shapechange at the end of that road. (Well, there's GM, but only if you're an egoist.) There's Reality Revision, but that's too expensive to cast regularly and it's redundant with Wish besides.

Even if by this you meant there are no game-changers that the wizard does not also possess, this still isn't true. Psychic Chirurgery, True Mind Switch, Astral Seed, Fusion... There are plenty of great high-level powers that can't be easily emulated by wizard spells.