Most powerful build..... What have i done......

[sideswipe]

Okay. I may have just started a fire.

What in your opinion is the most powerful build in 3.5. Keep in mind that being an accepted build would strengthen your answer. very few/ usually only stupid DM's would allow 9th level spells at level 1.

Limitations -

No gestalt.

Only official material, no homebrew (This includes no dragon magazine).

Anything that requires very sketchy RAW interpretations is not allowed. But RAW that reasonably clearly can be used for that purpose are fine.

Only races that are pre-informed player races are allowed. yes you can reverse engineer a Nymph from the monster manual, but it was not intended as such because there is no Nymph as a character section. Whereas there is an entire section on making a pixie character in the MM.

3.0 material is allowed unless there has been an updated version in 3.5. if 3.0 exploits a mechanic that no longer exists or was changed it is not allowed.

SO... what is the most powerful 3.5 build.

Feel free to give answers at levels 5, 10 and 20. though if your build stops before or just after those levels it is fine. its just low level mid level and high level.

NOTE: try to explain why your build is so powerful. mechanics, math, exploits. and possibly what each class brings to the build (as multiclassing is a obvious thing).
Also, if there is a weakness in the build, point it out, and see if it can be strengthened by another.

Edit - no PUN-PUN. Cicciograna thanks, it was obvious
No builds which require the assistance of an NPC gained through any means, even if directly controlled. thanks Yukitsu
OK no infinite loops and no infinite time control.
no dark chaos shuffle. once you are built you are built.
no crafting items with contingent spells, and you only have character level funds.
also, using items to call anything else or any other entity to give you a thing is not allowed. no summons, no other pc's no other living/dead/construct of anything to aid in any way.
no epic or epic abilities or spells

[Cicciograna]

Hello sir, do you have a moment to talk about Pun-Pun (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29)?

Edit: I noticed that this is the old method of ascension, the one requiring 5 levels.I remember seeing a version of him ascending at 1st level but the only one I could find is this horribily-formatted one (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486). If anybody has a link to a more readable post regarding the Almighty Kobold, please post it.

I stand edited :smallwink:

[Kazyan]

Also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240522) is basically Pun-Pun without Manipulate Form.

[Yukitsu]

The most powerful I've ever made was the exalted bombardier. Went around with tons of explosive rune sheets with consecrate spell on them, had an improved, literate familiar running around with them in each hand, reading them in combat to deal damage. I believe he needed consecrate spell, improved familiar and metamagic school focus.

He and his holy suicide bomber familiar could run up to enemies, deal out 6d8x2 damage per round that doesn't hurt good aligned people. If things got hairy, he could have his familiar draw and drop a book of them.

[sideswipe]

Edit, no pun puns, they are not playable, DM's will either beat you with a stick or new DM's will cry as you say "and now i kill the whole pantheon of your gods and sit on a throne i make from their skulls".

[Kazyan]

Edit, no pun puns, they are not playable, DM's will either beat you with a stick or new DM's will cry as you say "and now i kill the whole pantheon of your gods and sit on a throne i make from their skulls".

Are you asking for the most powerful "playable" build? Because "playable" depends highly on the DM; it's not quantifiable. Tippy once played a planet with arbitrarily high HP that was also an epic-level wizard and his DM was cool with it.

[Kazyan]

Also, a personal favorite of mine: Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365). Comprehensive list of buffs she doesn't have:

[Xuldarinar]

If only Old Blood wasn't 3rd party.

[sideswipe]

Are you asking for the most powerful "playable" build? Because "playable" depends highly on the DM; it's not quantifiable. Tippy once played a planet with arbitrarily high HP that was also an epic-level wizard and his DM was cool with it.

yes but that is tippys dm, he has to let him do that occasionally.

I'M relying on the fact that most people on the playground have at least some common sense and relative intelligence. they can tell the difference between really high op and stupid levels of cheese.
Though if anyone cant split the two. then this rule of thumb should be enough. no epic levels or epic level type abilities. in the first rules set I put out a planet is not playable. if it is pre stated in an official rule book AND has a player character entry, then I will eat those words.

[Kazyan]

The nature of the spectrum of powerful builds is that they transition smoothly from high OP to cheese; I'm not sure your question can actually be answered unless we just throw a ton of builds at you and then you pick which ones do and do not count as cheesy.

[sideswipe]

The nature of the spectrum of powerful builds is that they transition smoothly from high OP to cheese; I'm not sure your question can actually be answered unless we just throw a ton of builds at you and then you pick which ones do and do not count as cheesy.

fair point, ok ober chargers, not cheese. as they don't abuse rules, they stack them.

using a combination of classes to gain tri 9th casting at level 20. not cheese. just very high op.

using 3 feats to gain 3 sets of 9th level spells by level 5. parmasan. not allowed.

having 5d6 sneak attack by level 5 due to stacking abilities, not cheese.

gaining divine ranks.... i'm not going to dignify it with a response.

hopefully better. if you want to put up an uber powerful build, be my guest. and then the rest of the class can say if its too much.

[Yukitsu]

Do you want to know what fixes a huge swath of problems? No builds which require the assistance of an NPC gained through any means, even if directly controlled.

[sideswipe]

Do you want to know what fixes a huge swath of problems? No builds which require the assistance of an NPC gained through any means, even if directly controlled.

OP edited, thanks.

[Kazyan]

hopefully better. if you want to put up an uber powerful build, be my guest. and then the rest of the class can say if its too much.

I think the most powerful builds that are usually allowed are Persist-o-Wizard type deals. See Priya, above, for the extreme version.

[Snowbluff]

Also, a personal favorite of mine: Priya the Prismatic Priestess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280365). Comprehensive list of buffs she doesn't have:

I really should put that much time into a build sometime. :smalltongue:

[Phelix-Mu]

I agree with the above concern that this matter can't be ironed out because there are too many variables to consider.

1.) RAW: Well, would that it were complete, but there are huge gaps in many things, call them exploits or loopholes or whatever, and beyond these gaps lies an Astral ocean full of cosmic power.
-Do astral seed suicide chains work?
-Can I really shapechange zodar wish-chain?
-Are the epic feats available to any monster above 21hd?
-Dark Chaos Shuffle?

The exploits range from "yeah, that probably works that way *sigh*" to "OMFG, GET THE FIRE EXTINGUISHER, I THINK THE BOOKS ARE ON FIRE." The more rules they printed, the bigger the unintended consequences and the more unforeseen interactions. Read anything by Tippy, and you will quickly have to readjust your view of how borked the RAW is.

2.) TO: Some stuff really works on paper, but probably can't exist in a game. Pun Pun is a good example. There are others, though. The Terminator was a good build in this vein, designed to go back and kill Pun Pun before he was Pun Pun. Don't know if the plan would have worked, but the RAW acrobatics involved were breathtaking.

3.) Time Traits Abuse: Action economy is king. Quite the truism. Are we allowed access to time-bending stuff? Are you ruling out genesis with variable time traits (which you should)? How about borked linked power synchronicity loops, infinite action loops, arcane fusion celerity loops, and so forth? Cause any build that can get one of those on line pretty much hops to the front of the rocket tag rankings.

EDIT: The problem is that npcs are the only ways to get custom items aside from crafting them oneself, the spell casting services in phb, prcs involving membership in an organization, and a whole number of other factors that are normally assumed to be in-game resources. I agree that exploiting this too much becomes hyperbolic in a hurry, but you need to refine how you are drawing the line.

[Segev]

How do you feel about paying an NPC wizard to cast PAO on your Elan Psion with Metamorphic Transfer to turn into a Beholder Mage?

PAO says you "become" the creature. Not that you gain the form of, but become it.

The duration is calculated based on similarity (aberration to aberration) and on having lower intelligence (make sure your Elan has an 18, so the 17 of the beholder is lower).

Metamorphic Transfer gives you Eye Rays and the Anti-Magic Eye. Only 3 uses of each, but still, you have them.

I would term this "cheese," but it fits your rules for being things that have firm rules: you start as an Elan and get polymorphed into the beholder.

The class you're aiming for is Beholder Mage, of course. Not meant for PCs, as it has that requirement of being a beholder...but through chaining rules from a PC-ok starting point, you've become one.

[Yukitsu]

How do you feel about paying an NPC wizard to cast PAO on your Elan Psion with Metamorphic Transfer to turn into a Beholder Mage?

PAO says you "become" the creature. Not that you gain the form of, but become it.

Now illegal thanks to me. :D

the build is also risky, as if someone targeted dispels/disjunctions you, you lose all your class features including caster levels last I recall.

[sideswipe]

Yeah, she looks a bit cheesy, but still she seems to not exploit too much, I wouldn't allow it in a game, but still its a legal character who is very optimised.

[Phelix-Mu]

Now illegal thanks to me. :D

the build is also risky, as if someone targeted dispels/disjunctions you, you lose all your class features including caster levels last I recall.

But I think you could probably Craft Contingent a number of fixes that say "when dispelled into natural form, trigger pao into beholder." Once the build in question is a beholder again, its levels in Beholder Mage should be valid again.

@OP:You should probably also ban Craft Contingent Spell. It allows a lot of the stuff you might want to be eliminating with your "no cooperation" ruling.

[Yukitsu]

EDIT: The problem is that npcs are the only ways to get custom items aside from crafting them oneself, the spell casting services in phb, prcs involving membership in an organization, and a whole number of other factors that are normally assumed to be in-game resources. I agree that exploiting this too much becomes hyperbolic in a hurry, but you need to refine how you are drawing the line.

Custom magic items and spell services are the entire reason the exercise breaks down when you're allowing NPCs.

[sideswipe]

further edits.

[Phelix-Mu]

Custom magic items and spell services are the entire reason the exercise breaks down when you're allowing NPCs.

Ergo no thought bottle, which is essentially infinite crafting for the caster (or infinite wishing if we are bothering with efficiency). Your ban of no npcs is going to swiftly cascade into a whole extra series of implications, as there is cheese to cover for that.

For example, simulacra farms that have been psyreformed. They aren't quite npcs. They are copies of the build that are absolutely loyal.

Are we banning gate to get an npc (that solar is an npc)? Are summoned creatures npcs? Where is this line being drawn?

To be clear, I don't object to the ban. Just that it's going to be rather complicated (just like the whole exercise).

[Snowbluff]

The more rules they printed, the bigger the unintended consequences and the more unforeseen interactions.
This is the best thing about 3.5. :smallbiggrin:

I don't think RAW is really "borked" because of what Tippy does, though. That would imply "borked" means "imba."

Yeah, she looks a bit cheesy, but still she seems to not exploit too much, I wouldn't allow it in a game, but still its a legal character who is very optimised.

Um, that's a ninth level spell engine. Like what I was doing with infinite 3rd (and 5th) level spells earlier.

[sideswipe]

Ergo no thought bottle, which is essentially infinite crafting for the caster (or infinite wishing if we are bothering with efficiency). Your ban of no npcs is going to swiftly cascade into a whole extra series of implications, as there is cheese to cover for that.

For example, simulacra farms that have been psyreformed. They aren't quite npcs. They are copies of the build that are absolutely loyal.

Are we banning gate to get an npc (that solar is an npc)? Are summoned creatures npcs? Where is this line being drawn?

To be clear, I don't object to the ban. Just that it's going to be rather complicated (just like the whole exercise).

edited. no outside help

[Fax Celestis]

I'm a big fan of the Omniscificier (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596) and the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1007491).

[Phelix-Mu]

Is miracle outside help? Cause now we are looking pretty solid at an arcane caster or manifester.

No Leadership, I take it, and by extension, no Thrall?

How about those suicide chains I mentioned earlier, a common method of cherrypicking immunities?

EDIT: I almost linked the Twice-Betrayer of Shar earlier. That is one darn effective build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Most powerful" is a relative term, because certain builds are stronger or weaker depending on the setting, type of adventure, and various other situational considerations.

With that said, an Illithid Savant is pretty high on the list. He can permanently acquire feats, skill ranks, racial abilities, and class features from creatures by eating their brains. He can eat a Simulacrum or Ice Assassin copy of a creature to gain whatever that creature has without having to fight it. He can eat a copy of another Illithid Savant (even himself) and spend one use of his acquire class feature ability to gain three uses of acquire class feature. He can spend one use of acquire class feature to gain 20th+ level spellcasting or manifesting from one class. It's basically the 3.0 Pun-Pun.

[Yukitsu]

Ergo no thought bottle, which is essentially infinite crafting for the caster (or infinite wishing if we are bothering with efficiency). Your ban of no npcs is going to swiftly cascade into a whole extra series of implications, as there is cheese to cover for that.

For example, simulacra farms that have been psyreformed. They aren't quite npcs. They are copies of the build that are absolutely loyal.

To be fair, I don't actually mind them, I tend to feel that their power for the cost, vulnerability to disjunction and dispel, and downtime to do that makes it pretty "meh" all around. The only real problem is in conjunction with infinite wealth schemes which probably need to be dealt with as well.


Are we banning gate to get an npc (that solar is an npc)? Are summoned creatures npcs? Where is this line being drawn?

Gate would be using an actual, other real creature that you're giving commands to, but summons are spell effects, they aren't real creatures.

[sideswipe]

I'm a big fan of the Omniscificier (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1481596) and the Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1007491).

omniscifcier is not allowed. i stopped reading as soon as it said hirelings.

the other looks fine, seems he is just an unkillable character but no real offensive abilities.

[Gemini476]

Does no NPC assistance extend to PrC requirments as well?

Also, for a slightly lower-op build, Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10.

[sideswipe]

Is miracle outside help? Cause now we are looking pretty solid at an arcane caster or manifester.

No Leadership, I take it, and by extension, no Thrall?

How about those suicide chains I mentioned earlier, a common method of cherrypicking immunities?

EDIT: I almost linked the Twice-Betrayer of Shar earlier. That is one darn effective build.

miracle is not outside help. unless you use it to summon e.t.c. or bring your deity personally.

im not familiar with suicide chains. at least in the respect you are mentioning.

[sideswipe]

Does no NPC assistance extend to PrC requirments as well?

as in being trained by an ur priest? yes you are allowed. but if you had a commoner to do a thing so you can chain a thing. no

[Segev]

How do you feel about magic items purchased that you, yourself, use, but did not make?

[sideswipe]

How do you feel about magic items purchased that you, yourself, use, but did not make?

that is allowed as you have character level gold. you may buy an item and use it. though it really has to be an item that exists in some way or another.

[Gemini476]

How do you feel about magic items purchased that you, yourself, use, but did not make?

How about non-magical and/or alchemical items?

Also psionic tattoos.

[sideswipe]

How about non-magical and/or alchemical items?

Also psionic tattoos.

can you buy them? do they have a listed price? then yes. you can buy them.

[Telonius]

There's always the classic Necropolitan Tainted Scholar cheese. If you're an undead, you do not have any of the penalties for Taint, but you do reap the benefits. Since there's no maximum amount, you can theoretically get as many spells per day as you want, with saving throws of LOLNope.

[Phelix-Mu]

Suicide chains, as I understand it, involve mind switching or fusioning with another creature to acquire a favorable/advantageous body. While in the other body, manifest astral seed. This makes you a backup copy of yourself, and the RAW indicates it's a perfect copy of your body at the time you manifest astral seed. Well, if I mind switch with the tarrasque and manifest astral seed, it makes a copy of the tarrasque body.

Now I go back to my original body, kill myself. The astral seed takes some time, but eventually my soul, now in the astral seed, grows into a new tarrasque body.

I think you can see how this is problematic. Typically, repeating this process can net one immunity to almost everything, though the acrobatics involved are pretty time consuming and expensive. Also they rely on you meeting monsters you can target (but this whole exercise requires you to level up, which requires monsters).

The normal RAW debate involves whether body-swapping/combining effects with a duration still have their duration carried over into the new body. The RAW is terribly unclear, and it's largely a DM call. Unfortunately, permanent body-swapping methods still exist.

FOOTNOTE: I could use some help with a conceptual build I am designing that uses baleful polymorph to create an army of super-powered kittens. No idea if it works, but it's the kind of image that lodges in the crevices of the mind where the Far Realm spiders normally hide. PM me if you are interested in helping me iron it out.

[sideswipe]

Suicide chains, as I understand it, involve mind switching or fusioning with another creature to acquire a favorable/advantageous body. While in the other body, manifest astral seed. This makes you a backup copy of yourself, and the RAW indicates it's a perfect copy of your body at the time you manifest astral seed. Well, if I mind switch with the tarrasque and manifest astral seed, it makes a copy of the tarrasque body.

this requires an extra thing to help so no.

[JaronK]

The most powerful I've played was Binder 1/Archivist 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage. The DM just couldn't keep up. Nothing he threw at it could even make a dent. Everything died instantly. At level 12 he was throwing Great Wyrms at it... they went down in one round and never got a shot off. It was just too much.

JaronK

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, I think we are down to an arcane caster or manifester at this point, ideally one that has picked up alternate list powers through ACFs and such.

How about Leadership? That sounds like outside help, but it's not really a normal npc under many interpretations.

[Yukitsu]

Well, I think we are down to an arcane caster or manifester at this point, ideally one that has picked up alternate list powers through ACFs and such.

How about Leadership? That sounds like outside help, but it's not really a normal npc under many interpretations.

I think followers and cohorts were explicitly supposed to be NPCs, but I can't recall off hand. It's certainly considered problematic in its own right.

[sideswipe]

How about Leadership? That sounds like outside help, but it's not really a normal npc under many interpretations.

no leadership or thralls

[Segev]

There might be more sure-fire ways to achieve it, but a scroll of PAO is only 3000 gp. You'd need a DC 35 UMD check to use it successfully. If you spend 8 skill points on UMD (cross class), that's +4. You need +30 more in order to guarantee success.

I don't have my MIC around, so I don't know how many gp it is for one-shot skill shards. At 5th level, you have 10,500 gp. No other items are needed to achieve this build, so you can spend 7,500 gp on things to give you a one-shot skill boost to try to guarantee it.

There might be other ways. In fact, by item creation guidelines, a one-shot use-activated 8th level spell item (which is what PAO is) would be 6000 gp, which you could afford.

That doesn't require any UMD at all. Might count as "custom" magic item, though, depending on your view there. It is a straight-forward following of the guidelines for magic item creation, though.

[Yukitsu]

Typically, you need two castings of PaO to get any value from it, as otherwise the duration is too small. Even then, two castings for permanent duration requires shaky RAW interpretation.

[Segev]

Typically, you need two castings of PaO to get any value from it, as otherwise the duration is too small. Even then, two castings for permanent duration requires shaky RAW interpretation.

Two castings doesn't work as far as I'm concerned.

That's why I use an Elan with 18 Int as the starting point:

Same Kingdom (animal) +4
Same Class (Aberrations) +2
Same or lower Int (The beholder's 17 Int is lower than the PC's 18) +2

Total is +9, which is what is needed for Permanent duration.

[Phelix-Mu]

So now, ice assassin!

I'm pretty sure I can, without outside help and only items bought, get a psion that can manifest all spells and all powers. Thought bottle is needed, and a bunch of power stones, but I think it's possible. This is largely down to inspiration from Tippy, who I'm sure could make improvements, but alternate list stuff should be available on the same premise that normal power stones are available. Not sure it can be done without conceptual access to an actual stp erudite, though.

Hmm, I will need to think on this. Supposedly, if it's possible, it's a step up from stp erudite. Anyway, this would be stacked on top of some mind-switch shenanigans, ice assassin to taste, then combo it with psicrystal chains to get access to a bunch of feats that can be feat-leeched when convenient, in addition to normal hp and pp recharge schemes.

[sideswipe]

Two castings doesn't work as far as I'm concerned.

That's why I use an Elan with 18 Int as the starting point:

Same Kingdom (animal) +4
Same Class (Aberrations) +2
Same or lower Int (The beholder's 17 Int is lower than the PC's 18) +2

Total is +9, which is what is needed for Permanent duration.

the math in the spell is correct but yours is not. i believe you ment 5 for same kingdom

[Fax Celestis]

omniscifcier is not allowed. i stopped reading as soon as it said hirelings.

We're not talking leadership cheese, we're talking hired skilled laborers as outlined in the PHB. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#hirelingTrained)


the other looks fine, seems he is just an unkillable character but no real offensive abilities.
You mean aside from your standard clericzilla offensive capabilities.

[Segev]

the math in the spell is correct but yours is not. i believe you ment 5 for same kingdom

I did, indeed.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, the Twice-Betrayer can easily accommodate a huge number of self-buffs. And being difficult to harm at all pretty much increases your options for how you deal with enemies, as now you have some time to get the job done (as opposed to the more typical rocket tag, race-to-go-first-or-die).

[ShurikVch]

How about applying "Petitioner" template to playable [epic] monsters?
Epic Spellcasting at ECL 2. Classless.

[sideswipe]

How about applying "Petitioner" template to playable [epic] monsters?
Epic Spellcasting at ECL 2. Classless.

i swear i edited no epic level anything. must have been a post.

[ShurikVch]

i swear i edited no epic level anything. must have been a post.
OK, I was inaccurate.
Not actual Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting)
(My position is: [epic] feats needs epic character to work)
But it still allow to get CL 29-33 with appropriate spells-per-day and spells-known.
To elaborate, this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) are playable LA +0 creatures in the book. "Petitioner" drops them to 2 HD, but keeps spellcasting.

[Somensjev]

scroll of shapechange = a few thousand gold pieces

shapechange into a zodar

wish for a ring of three wishes

use three wishes to get three more rings (nine wishes remaining)

each wish grants a ring (total 27 wishes)

use 2 wishes, one for an item of +<arbitrarily high number> to UMD and another of +<arbitrarily high number> to UPD

using transparency rules, use two wishes for a powerstone of fusion, and a powerstone of astral seed

use a wish to get a scroll of ice assassin

total wishes remaining = 22

use scroll of ice assassin to create an ice assassin of any creature you like
use powerstone of fusion to combine the two of you
use powerstone of astral seed while in combined state
wait for fusion to wear off
command ice assassin to kill you
wait for your crystal body to reform
you come back as the fused body, and still have your ice assassin
repeat if you want


edit: no infinite loops, i must've missed that, or it came up while i was typing..

would it be ok if i managed to do this and only use each wish giving thing once? since that's not technically infinite, there is a limit to how many things can give you a wish

[Yukitsu]

Lack of level adjustment on a non-player character race doesn't actually mean level adjustment of 0, it just means players can't by the rules use it.

[OldTrees1]

OK, I was inaccurate.
Not actual Epic Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSpellcasting)
(My position is: [epic] feats needs epic character to work)
But it still allow to get CL 29-33 with appropriate spells-per-day and spells-known.
To elaborate, this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) are playable LA +0 creatures in the book. "Petitioner" drops them to 2 HD, but keeps spellcasting.
no LA =/= LA +0
ninja'd

[ShurikVch]

Lack of level adjustment on a non-player character race doesn't actually mean level adjustment of 0, it just means players can't by the rules use it.
If it's for me, I'm answer:
SRD is just a convenient reference.
Primary source for epic monsters is Epic Level Handbook.
On the page 156 table "MONSTERS BY CHALLENGE RATING" give them playable, if very high, ECL (61 for dragon and 70 for titan). It's completely coincide with amount of their RHD, thus LA +0.

[Yukitsu]

If it's for me, I'm answer:
SRD is just a convenient reference.
Primary source for epic monsters is Epic Level Handbook.
On the page 156 table "MONSTERS BY CHALLENGE RATING" give them playable, if very high, ECL (61 for dragon and 70 for titan). It's completely coincide with amount of their RHD, thus LA +0.

"The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters."

As from the level adjustment - template petitioner.

[sideswipe]

scroll of shapechange = a few thousand gold pieces

shapechange into a zodar

wish for a ring of three wishes

use three wishes to get three more rings (nine wishes remaining)

each wish grants a ring (total 27 wishes)

use 2 wishes, one for an item of +<arbitrarily high number> to UMD and another of +<arbitrarily high number> to UPD

using transparency rules, use two wishes for a powerstone of fusion, and a powerstone of astral seed

use a wish to get a scroll of ice assassin

total wishes remaining = 22

use scroll of ice assassin to create an ice assassin of any creature you like
use powerstone of fusion to combine the two of you
use powerstone of astral seed while in combined state
wait for fusion to wear off
command ice assassin to kill you
wait for your crystal body to reform
you come back as the fused body, and still have your ice assassin
repeat if you want


edit: no infinite loops, i must've missed that, or it came up while i was typing..

would it be ok if i managed to do this and only use each wish giving thing once? since that's not technically infinite, there is a limit to how many things can give you a wish

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
wish. ring of 3 wishes costs more than 25000 gold.
you receive a ring of 3 wishes with all 3 wishes used. you have a ring of three wishes. literal filamentary as you asked for more than given limits. i stand corrected

[Somensjev]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
wish. ring of 3 wishes costs more than 25000 gold.
you receive a ring of 3 wishes with all 3 wishes used. you have a ring of three wishes. literal filamentary as you asked for more than given limits.

the SRD says this

Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.


there's no price limitation on magical items, only nonmagical, so wishing for another ring of three wishes is fair game

it's in the link you used

[ShurikVch]

"The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters."

As from the level adjustment - template petitioner.
What's the book and page?

[Yukitsu]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
wish. ring of 3 wishes costs more than 25000 gold.
you receive a ring of 3 wishes with all 3 wishes used. you have a ring of three wishes. literal filamentary as you asked for more than given limits.

As he said, legal, but is a loop, regardless of whether you opt to terminate it or not.


What's the book and page?

It's right in the text for petitioners. You can get it right from wizards at www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/divineminions.rtf, which is also in the system reference documents.

[ShurikVch]

It's right in the text for petitioners.
Nope.
Nor Manual of the Planes, nor Errata to it, nor 3.5 update booklet have such phrase
Source, please. Or I will cast Detect BS.

[Somensjev]

Nope.
Nor Manual of the Planes, nor Errata to it, nor 3.5 update booklet have such phrase
Source, please. Or I will cast Detect BS.

go to "petitioners" it's the very last paragraph under that heading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm)

[Yukitsu]

Nope.
Nor Manual of the Planes, nor Errata to it, nor 3.5 update booklet have such phrase
Source, please. Or I will cast Detect BS.

I literally sent a link that has it directly from wizards of the coast. :smallannoyed:

[sideswipe]

Nope.
Nor Manual of the Planes, nor Errata to it, nor 3.5 update booklet have such phrase
Source, please. Or I will cast Detect BS.

page 312 monster manual in the glossary for level adjustment.

you detect no bull****.

[ShurikVch]

go to "petitioners" it's the very last paragraph under that heading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm)

I literally sent a link that has it directly from wizards of the coast. :smallannoyed:
SRD is not primary source
Primary source for 'Petitioner' template is Manual of the Planes (because it's not appeared in any other book), Errata to MotP, and 3.5 update booklet

EDIT:

page 312 monster manual in the glossary for level adjustment.

you detect no bull****.
312?
Native Subtype ?
Natural Weapons ?
Nonabilities ?
What?

[sideswipe]

312?
Native Subtype ?
Natural Weapons ?
Nonabilities ?
What?

sorry 311. my pdf viewer adds a page. and i said level adjustment, you could have flipped the page back one as its alphabetical order lol

[Fax Celestis]

SRD is not primary source
Primary source for 'Petitioner' template is Manual of the Planes (because it's not appeared in any other book), Errata to MotP, and 3.5 update booklet

...which would be applicable, if the SRD weren't a transliteration of the aforementioned material.

[ShurikVch]

sorry 311. my pdf viewer adds a page. and i said level adjustment, you could have flipped the page back one as its alphabetical order lol
There is a huge difference between LA for creatures and templates.
If creature have no LA listed, it cannot be played (until DM give it some)
If template have no LA listed, it mean LA +0, because
MotP, pg. 199
It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

[Yukitsu]

Except Petitioner from all 3 sources has no LA. And is mentioned as not being for player characters in all 3 sources.



If template have no LA listed, it mean LA +0, because

I'm sorry, but I'm really confused as to how you came to that conclusion.

[sideswipe]

petitioner says any creature. any at all. you can make anything a 2hd version of itself.

however. this does not explicitly make it playable.
if you apply it to a LA - creature you have a LA - creature that is still unplayable. as per the definition of LA on page 311 in the monster manual index. and since monster manual is the most core material considering monsters i believe i am correct when i say it is the primary source?

[ShurikVch]

petitioner says any creature. any at all. you can make anything a 2hd version of itself.

however. this does not explicitly make it playable.
if you apply it to a LA - creature you have a LA - creature that is still unplayable. as per the definition of LA on page 311 in the monster manual index. and since monster manual is the most core material considering monsters i believe i am correct when i say it is the primary source?
This is not a "LA -" creature.
Show me, where is listed "LA -"?
SRD is not a valid source


Except Petitioner from all 3 sources has no LA. And is mentioned as not being for player characters in all 3 sources. Exact quote, please. And not from SRD

[Yukitsu]

In the line under "petitioner" in the divine minions from the file given by wizards of the coast, the same line in the SRD, and the same paragraph in the manual of the planes.

[sideswipe]

This is not a "LA -" creature.
Show me, where is listed "LA -"?
SRD is not a valid source

Exact quote, please. And not from SRD

the point is there is no exact quote. in a normal creature entry it always has a LA entry.

in the template it does not mention changing level adjustment. it says in MOTP" It uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here."

meaning that the base creatures abilities and statistics are used and unchanged except from where the template defines it should be changed. then it goes through specific changes. none of which change the LA. meaning you use the base creature LA.

otherwise your 2HD no ability titan still has CR 30.
and no creature with the template can initiate combat as they no longer have an initiative entry (although still having dex).
they would also take up 0 space.

this is what your interpretation suggests.

[sideswipe]

ps. i am reading from the manual of the planes copy i have, the errata i also have and teh monster manual i also have.

[ShurikVch]

In the line under "petitioner" in the divine minions from the file given by wizards of the coast, the same line in the SRD, and the same paragraph in the manual of the planes.

"Divine minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a)"?

Ah, SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineMinions.htm#petitioners) one?

Not a valid source, as I already said.
Neither book mentioned them as non-playable.

Manual of the Planes
pg. 199
in most cases this template is for nonplayer characters.
See the difference! :smalltongue:

[Yukitsu]

And as I've also said, that's also from the wizards of the coast directly. I am not certain if it was intended as errata to be honest, but it does exist as a separate, direct from company source. Stating one or the other is definitely primary source doesn't seem sensible in this case, and in any event, it's pretty clear you're not meant to play one.

[Darkz0r]

Also, for a slightly lower-op build, Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10.

If you use the "time stop" trick it's a pretty RAW friendly build I think, and quite strong.

Sure, casting cheese can reach CL 100 and other BS, but a Dru/PS might be allowed in the game.

[sideswipe]

If you use the "time stop" trick it's a pretty RAW friendly build I think, and quite strong.

Sure, casting cheese can reach CL 100 and other BS, but a Dru/PS might be allowed in the game.

druid planar shepherd is powerful yes, but its intended as such. i would allow it in a high level campaign.

[ShurikVch]

And as I've also said, that's also from the wizards of the coast directly. I am not certain if it was intended as errata to be honest, but it does exist as a separate, direct from company source. Stating one or the other is definitely primary source doesn't seem sensible in this case, and in any event, it's pretty clear you're not meant to play one.
MotP: "In terms of game play, petitioners are usually not central figures. While it may be useful to have the player characters occasionally encounter familiar, now-dead individuals, in most cases this template is for nonplayer characters."
SRD: "The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters."
"In most cases"=/="always"
SRD<Books, period

[Yukitsu]

Why do you keep thinking I'm directly quoting the SRD?

[sideswipe]

MotP: "In terms of game play, petitioners are usually not central figures. While it may be useful to have the player characters occasionally encounter familiar, now-dead individuals, in most cases this template is for nonplayer characters."
SRD: "The template presented below is for NPCs, not player characters."
"In most cases"=/="always"
SRD<Books, period

whether he is or is not using the SRD and it is right/ wrong i am using source material and the officially published books. and you have ignored my post which explains exactly why we are correct.

are you just ignoring it because you have no re-buddle? and are continuing for arguments sake?

[ShurikVch]

Why do you keep thinking I'm directly quoting the SRD?
Because you are.
EDIT:

and are continuing for arguments sake?
Partially.
Which post? I apparently missed it.

[Yukitsu]

Re-buddle sounds like the sort of thing you would do when you've made up after a fight with a buddy and are giving out bro hugs. Someone needs to make that a real word.


Because you are.

That link I sent wasn't to the SRD.

[sideswipe]

Re-buddle sounds like the sort of thing you would do when you've made up after a fight with a buddy and are giving out bro hugs. Someone needs to make that a real word.

I believe it is, I have heard it used in debating as proxy to the word reply. so it must be jargon for reply. I have not confirmed this officially though.

[ShurikVch]

Re-buddle sounds like the sort of thing you would do when you've made up after a fight with a buddy and are giving out bro hugs. Someone needs to make that a real word.



That link I sent wasn't to the SRD.
Dude, it IS SRD!
Please, open your one link and look to the left up angle.
See those three letters?

P. S. What is "Re-buddle"? My English is not good enough, and no dictionary or e-translator can translate it.

[Yukitsu]

I believe it is, I have heard it used in debating as proxy to the word reply. so it must be jargon for reply. I have not confirmed this officially though.

The real word is rebuttal, but I think the other word would be awesome as well.

Edit: Apparently a buddle is a type of bowl. Re-bowling is less awesome than making up with friends.


Dude, it IS SRD!
Please, open your one link and look to the left up angle.
See those three letters?

That's the link someone else put up. The top three letters in the one I sent are "Thi"

[sideswipe]

Because you are.
EDIT:

Partially.
Which post? I apparently missed it.

post http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16758286&postcount=77 and the post after says that i am using MotP source books as well as all official books and official errata's as my source not SRD.

[OldTrees1]

I believe it is, I have heard it used in debating as proxy to the word reply. so it must be jargon for reply. I have not confirmed this officially though.

Rebuttal:

While it may be useful to have the player characters occasionally encounter familiar, now-dead individuals, in most cases this template is for nonplayer characters. Dead PCs may be restored to life, but in that case they forget any of their experiences as petitioners.

In most cases LA - templates are not for PC characters. A DM can decide to give a PC a LA - template but it is not something to assume when a players is designing a character.

[Vhaidara]

Clearly the most powerful build is Monk 20. Monks have a hidden class feature (it's coded in the pictures throughout the PHB) that a 20th level monk can drop kick Pun-Pun out of the universe.

[sideswipe]

Rebuttal:

While it may be useful to have the player characters occasionally encounter familiar, now-dead individuals, in most cases this template is for nonplayer characters. Dead PCs may be restored to life, but in that case they forget any of their experiences as petitioners.

In most cases LA - templates are not for PC characters. A DM can decide to give a PC a LA - template but it is not something to assume when a players is designing a character.

the template itself is fine. i said this.
the problem is he was putting it on creatures that have LA - and saying they are now playable. it keeps the old race and its LA which if it is LA- is unplayable.

you could put this on ogres and they would be playable. (with dm permission)

[sideswipe]

Clearly the most powerful build is Monk 20. Monks have a hidden class feature (it's coded in the pictures throughout the PHB) that a 20th level monk can drop kick Pun-Pun out of the universe.

very true.

[ShurikVch]

post http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16758286&postcount=77 and the post after says that i am using MotP source books as well as all official books and official errata's as my source not SRD.
I'm sorry.
I seen it, but what's you attempt to tell me?
As far as I see, your (horribly formatted) post support my position against treating templates without listed LA as "LA -"
Was there some other point?


In most cases LA - templates are not for PC characters. A DM can decide to give a PC a LA - template but it is not something to assume when a players is designing a character. It is not "LA -" unless you prove otherwise

[sideswipe]

I'm sorry.
I seen it, but what's you attempt to tell me?
As far as I see, your (horribly formatted) post support my position against treating templates without listed LA as "LA -"
Was there some other point?

yes an even earlier post when i stated the LA rules from the MM which is confirmed primary source for all Monster related issues.

page 311 of the monster manual, in the index, it confirms that LA- creatures cannot be played as playable characters.

the template keeps the old LA as it expressly states so when it " uses all the statistics and abilities of the base creature except as noted here"

it does not note a change to level adjustment.

therefore you use the LA of the base creature, you have confirmed the eldar titan to have LA - and in the rules i have referenced in the monster manual it is unplayable.

there is no disputing this.

[ShurikVch]

yes an even earlier post when i stated the LA rules from the MM which is confirmed primary source for all Monster related issues.

page 311 of the monster manual, in the index, it confirms that LA- creatures cannot be played as playable characters.

the template keeps the old LA as it expressly states so when it " uses all the statistics and abilities of the base creature except as noted here"

it does not note a change to level adjustment.

therefore you use the LA of the base creature, you have confirmed the eldar titan to have LA - and in the rules i have referenced in the monster manual it is unplayable.

there is no disputing this.

But it's not "LA -" creature.

Template without listed LA is LA +0

Mentioned creatures from ELH all have playable ECL

Page 311 have nothing to do with it, because it speak about creatures, not about templates

[TriForce]

But it's not "LA -" creature.

Template without listed LA is LA +0



for arguements sake, please tell me what page from what book tells you this

[OldTrees1]

the template itself is fine. i said this.
Sorry I missaimed my rebuttal. It was meant to show that the template was implicitly LA- in order to support your argument against 2HD Eldar Titan PCs.



Mentioned creatures from ELH all have playable ECL

Sorry, but either ELH has dysfunctional ECL rules or ELH templates are not LA+0 despite not listing an LA. You do not get to call it dysfunctional only when it supports your position.

[sideswipe]

But it's not "LA -" creature.

Template without listed LA is LA +0

Mentioned creatures from ELH all have playable ECL

Page 311 have nothing to do with it, because it speak about creatures, not about templates

like i said. ad have said in other posts. i was never, ever talking about the template. i always stated that it uses the LA of the base creature. if the LA of the base creature is LA-
then you cannot play it. and like i said, if you put the template on an ogre or something like that it would be playable. but you would need your DM's permission. i never stated once that the template itself had LA-. that was an idea you put inside your own head.

again, since you don't seem to have read a single post that i have put up i will re itterate everything. nice and simple.

the template uses the LA of the base creature

if the base creature LA is LA- then it is an unplayable race as per the MM

if the base creature has LA x then it will be playable. but, because it is not intended as a player template you would need your DM's permission to use the template.

i have said each of these things at least 5 times each and i am getting tired of you saying the same response which does not acknowledge any of the things i have said, or any of the source material i have given as evidence. this conversation is over.

[molten_dragon]

What in your opinion is the most powerful build in 3.5.

Edit - no PUN-PUN. Cicciograna thanks, it was obvious
No builds which require the assistance of an NPC gained through any means, even if directly controlled. thanks Yukitsu
OK no infinite loops and no infinite time control.
no dark chaos shuffle. once you are built you are built.
no crafting items with contingent spells, and you only have character level funds.
also, using items to call anything else or any other entity to give you a thing is not allowed. no summons, no other pc's no other living/dead/construct of anything to aid in any way.
no epic or epic abilities or spells

I don't really understand the point of this thread. You're asking for the most powerful build in 3.5, then discounting all of the most powerful 3.5 builds.

[sideswipe]

I don't really understand the point of this thread. You're asking for the most powerful build in 3.5, then discounting all of the most powerful 3.5 builds.

i'm asking for a powerful build that is playable, that would be accepted and does not stand on shaky interpretation. most power builds rely on "if you interoperate this rule as this it can combine with this miss spelling to give me I AM GOD".

i am essentially looking for something legitimate that someone would actually play and be accepted to play. without using rules exploitation which some others would just look at and think "your being pedantic" i want one where you look at it and go. "wow nice build. nothing in it looks broken. yet its powerful". some people have put their own builds up and they look good.

[OldTrees1]

@sideswipe.
This thread is like a deduce the number game where the goal is to deduce what your DM defines as powerful but not overpowered.

The best way to get the answer is to flat out ask for the answer.

The second best way is to guess something in the middle and ask for a "high" or "low" clue.


So
ECL 2-18
Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian (Mountain Rage, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2, Fighter 2 / Swordsage 1 / Rogue (Feat) 2/ Warhulk 1 / Warblade 1 / Warhulk +9
Each normal attack/iteriative attack/attack of opporunity is a whirlwind attack which triggers Trip and Knockback(Bullrush without you moving). Anyone hit twice makes a save vs nausea.

How much lower is this than that powerful/overpowered line your DM is using?

[Fax Celestis]

Template without listed LA is LA +0

No it is not, per the Monster Manual (which is, by the way, primary source for monster stat blocks and how level adjustment works):


Level Adjustment
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs). Add this number to the creature’s total Hit Dice, including class levels, to get the creature’s effective character level (ECL). A character’s ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equipment.
Since the inclusion of the line with a value indicates that the monster is suitable for a player to play, the exclusion of one would indicate that the monster is not suitable for a player to play.

EDIT: In addition:

From page 172 of the Dungeon Master's Guide:

Add a monster's level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature's effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass characters when they take class levels. Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four. Use ECL instead of character level when referring to Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player's Handbook to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL with Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their Monster Manual entry as class skills.

LA: --, like Con --, is a null value (Ø), not zero.

Like a golem not gaining a Constitution score when it puts on an amulet of vitality +2, a creature with LA: -- does not gain a level adjustment when altered.

0 + 1 = 1
Ø + 1 = Ø

[sideswipe]

@sideswipe.
This thread is like a deduce the number game where the goal is to deduce what your DM defines as powerful but not overpowered.

The best way to get the answer is to flat out ask for the answer.

The second best way is to guess something in the middle and ask for a "high" or "low" clue.


So
ECL 2-18
Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian (Mountain Rage, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 1, Fighter 2 / Rogue (Feat) 1/ Swordsage 1 / Rogue (Feat) +1/ Warhulk 1 / Warblade 1 / Warhulk +9
Each normal attack/iteriative attack/attack of opporunity is a whirlwind attack which triggers Trip and Knockback(Bullrush without you moving). Anyone hit twice makes a save vs nausea.

How much lower is this than that powerful/overpowered line your DM is using?

honestly we usually play lower levels in my DM'S games (<12).

to me that looks quite good. not overpowered but a very good build.

this is what i was hoping for at the beginning, a build :smallbiggrin: YAY!

[OldTrees1]

honestly we usually play lower levels in my DM'S games (<12).

to me that looks quite good. not overpowered but a very good build.

this is what i was hoping for at the beginning, a build :smallbiggrin: YAY!

You're welcome.
Since you usually play in low level games, I would recommend

ECL 2-10
Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian (Mountain Rage, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2, Fighter 2 / Swordsage 1 / Warblade 4

[ShurikVch]

...
You say, base creatures have "LA -", but you are wrong
Base creatures have LA +0
Epic Level Handbook have table at pg. 156 "MONSTERS BY CHALLENGE RATING"
Besides CR, it also listed monster's ECL
Many of them are "n/a", which obviously mean "LA -"
Let's check - what's it listed for dragon and titan?
Titan, elder (right column, 15th from above) ECL 70. Playable
Dragon, advanced great wyrm (same column, 6th from below) ECL 61. Playable


Sorry, but either ELH has dysfunctional ECL rules or ELH templates are not LA+0 despite not listing an LA. You do not get to call it dysfunctional only when it supports your position. It's not dysfunctional by itself
Only application of 'Petitioner' make them broken by RAW
Also, none of ELH templates are "LA +0"
Demilich is LA +8, Paragon is LA +11, Pseudonatural is LA +13, and Worm that walks is LA +4.
(The last may be broken at early levels)

[Kelb_Panthera]

The most powerful build I can think of that's not even a little questionable is

wizard 5/ incantatrix 10/ archmage 5

Make sure you get uncanny forethought. If you're okay with a -little- questionable content also pick up the spontaneous divination ACF and versatile spellcaster.

Proceed to crush the world beneath your boot.

[OldTrees1]

It's not dysfunctional by itself
Only application of 'Petitioner' make them broken by RAW
Also, none of ELH templates are "LA +0"
Demilich is LA +8, Paragon is LA +11, Pseudonatural is LA +13, and Worm that walks is LA +4.
(The last may be broken at early levels)

None of the 4 ELH templates list an LA in the template. Therefore by previous argument of yours(see below), they all are LA+0.


There is a huge difference between LA for creatures and templates.
If creature have no LA listed, it cannot be played (until DM give it some)
If template have no LA listed, it mean LA +0, because

Quote:MotP, pg. 199
It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.


So either ELH has dysfunctional ECL rules or you have not shown Petitioner to have LA+0.

[sideswipe]

You say, base creatures have "LA -"

no. no i never did. i used the word IF. IF. IF the creature has LA-

stop trying to seem right when you have lost. your making a fool of yourself. now can we get back on topic?

[ShurikVch]

no. no i never did. i used the word IF. IF. IF the creature has LA-

stop trying to seem right when you have lost. your making a fool of yourself. now can we get back on topic?
If LA is not "-", then I win


None of the 4 ELH templates list an LA in the template. Therefore by previous argument of yours(see below), they all are LA+0.

So either ELH has dysfunctional ECL rules or you have not shown Petitioner to have LA+0. ELH was 3.0 book
How many 3.0 materials have listed LA?
But, fortunately, table have ECL for templated creatures
Lich, Mind Flayer, Troll and Human - original ECL for them all well known

[sideswipe]

The most powerful build I can think of that's not even a little questionable is

wizard 5/ incantatrix 10/ archmage 5

Make sure you get uncanny forethought. If you're okay with a -little- questionable content also pick up the spontaneous divination ACF and versatile spellcaster.

Proceed to crush the world beneath your boot.

nice build. though i dislike versatile spellcaster because one interpretation in RAW require you to know spells of the level you are trying to make a slot of that level.

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher"

though if you are using it for its intended purpose as i know a lvl 5th spell so i can use 2 4th's not the cheese "i can cast 2 1st level spells so i prepare a 9th i gain" then i fully accept your build. its solid.

[sideswipe]

If LA is not "-", then I win

NO because i said that from the start! i always said "the base creature" and i always said if its LA is a number its fine to use as a PC. if it is LA- then you cannot.

you have this idea in your mind that the base creature has no effect and somehow the template. with no LA ever written has LA+0

i am tired of talking to someone who does not listen and cannot read posts. i am bored. think what you want. i have said the correct thing and everyone else agrees what i have said to be true. you have not backed your claim with any written evidence. just that the lack of a sentence means it says what you want it to.

[Seer_of_Heart]

A very powerful mid level build would be a wizard 5/red mage 5/human paragon 2 assuming simulacrums of yourself are legal because they literally are you (just a duplicate) to use circle magic. Heighten a spell up to 20th level and then with your human paragon bonus feat take extra slot to gain a 19th level spell slot. With your level 12 feat take Innate spell (complete arcane version) and sacrifice your 19th level spell slot to get any specific 9th level spell once a round as an sla (I recommend miracle).

Alternatively a lower OP idea any psion build usually can benefit from picking up a staff of body outside body and casting it with UMD to gain clones with your manifesting ability. Plus if combat ends before the spell expires you can get 2/3s of the left over power points your clones have.

[Tysis]

If LA is not "-", then I win


Not really


“Petitioner” is a template that may be added to any creature
as determined by the nature of the campaign


Who, on an individual basis, becomes a petitioner
depends on the cosmology.

Both quotes from page 199 of Manual of the Planes.

Acquiring the Petitioner template requires divine intervention and dm fiat.

Regardless of whether you are right or wrong about the LA of the template acquiring it requires help from an npc, which is prohibited in this discussion. Otherwise, pun-pun exists and curb stomps the petitioner into oblivion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

nice build. though i dislike versatile spellcaster because one interpretation in RAW require you to know spells of the level you are trying to make a slot of that level.

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher"

though if you are using it for its intended purpose as i know a lvl 5th spell so i can use 2 4th's not the cheese "i can cast 2 1st level spells so i prepare a 9th i gain" then i fully accept your build. its solid.

You don't have to be able to cast a spell to put it in your spellbook. You just have to make the necessary checks to understand and scribe it. A first level wizard can, with a bit of luck, scribe at least a 6th level spell and maybe up to a 9th depending on intelligence. It's a long-shot but technically doable. A wizard's spells known is the contents of his spellbook(s).

[ShurikVch]

Acquiring the Petitioner template requires divine intervention and dm fiat. Acquiring any template requires DM fiat.
Divine intervention? Hardly.
Petitioner can be servant of some deity, but it's just possibility, not a mandatory.


Regardless of whether you are right or wrong about the LA of the template acquiring it requires help from an npc, which is prohibited in this discussion. Otherwise, pun-pun exists and curb stomps the petitioner into oblivion. Which NPC? Deity? Optional.

[sideswipe]

You don't have to be able to cast a spell to put it in your spellbook. You just have to make the necessary checks to understand and scribe it. A first level wizard can, with a bit of luck, scribe at least a 6th level spell and maybe up to a 9th depending on intelligence. It's a long-shot but technically doable. A wizard's spells known is the contents of his spellbook(s).

This is true, and a way that makes versatile spellcaster actually work now with heighten spell and all the other chains.

its just most people forget that part of the feat and think of it as "you can use 2 lower spell slots to make a higher one".

[Tysis]

Acquiring any template requires DM fiat.
Divine intervention? Hardly.
Petitioner can be servant of some deity, but it's just possibility, not a mandatory.

Which NPC? Deity? Optional.

Who becomes a petitioner is determined by the cosmology. We aren't using homebrew, which means you get to choose from official wotc cosmologies. AFAIK none of them have petitioners that spring into existence of their own free will. The only way to become a petitioner is through dm fiat presumably in the form of divine intervention.

[molten_dragon]

i'm asking for a powerful build that is playable, that would be accepted and does not stand on shaky interpretation.

This is impossible to answer without knowing who is doing the interpreting and who is deciding on what is playable. Every DM is going to have a different line that separates acceptable optimization from cheese he should ban.

For example, the most powerful character I ever played in an actual game was a gnome Wizard/Master Specialist/Shadowcraft Mage/Archmage who could emulate 9th level conjuration/evocation spells in 7th level slots and permanently turned himself into a Sarrukh so he could have an INT in the 60s. He also had a personal demiplane with a cleric cohort that did nothing but cast divine metamagic persisted buffs on him every morning.

I've known and played with a lot of DMs who would ban the character for being too powerful.

Compared to the kinds of things people like Tippy come up with on a regular basis, it's rather tame.

[Phelix-Mu]

The most powerful character I had was back in 3.0, where I managed to land a druid PrC that gave a druid spontaneous casting. Spent the rest of that campaign eating the retconned LA after everyone realized that spontaneous access to the whole druid spell list blew the op-level of that campaign way out of the water. Not that I minded, as I was DM half the time, not having to track spells prepared while running a six person party was a big relief.

By contrast, I've recently realized that an fairly highly optimized psion(shaper)/ constructor/thrallherd with a telepath thrall can really rip the game wide apart at 20th level. The same duo could do it better with the telepath at the head, but I like shaper flavor better.

I'm trying to find a way within the rules given by the op to guarantee that a psion can get all powers on his/her powers known list. Pretty sure it's possible with a combo of psyreform and psychic chirurgery, but it may also require simulacra-type shenanigans or ice assassin.

Ideally I'd also like to allow my psion to pick up all spells via stp erudite's power. Copy them off the erudite with psychirurgery, now they are powers known. Proving a little tricky to get this to work without the erudite, though.

[Somensjev]

@op: how do you feel about an stp erudite? :smallwink: (i'm assuming it's banned, until told otherwise)

[Phelix-Mu]

Was going to ask about Psiotheurgist, but then I recalled the ban on Dragon Magazine material. Which is actually a pretty sensible ban, in the broad scope of things.

[lunar2]

since everyone in the titan discussion is arguing past each other, let me clarify.

the proponent of the titan petitioner is making 2 claims.

1. since there is a table in the epic level handbook that lists an ECL for the elder titan that is equal to the number of RHD it has, the elder titan is a playable, LA +0 race. this claim is correct. assuming all the information is correct. i'm AFB, so can't check. most 3.0 materials did not include an LA line in the statblock of the monster, you had to look elsewhere for that information. that does not make the information any less valid, if it was printed in that book.

2. since the petitioner template is not excluded for PCs in the text of the book itself, its errata, or its 3.5 update, it is available to PCs. since it does not mention any change to LA in the template, you simply use the LA of the base creature. this is also correct. anything a template does not explicitly change is not changed from the base creature.

however, the elder titan petitioner is an illegal build for this challenge, because the OP states that only monsters with X as character entries can be used, and the elder titan lacks such an entry, iirc (i'm AFB).

[Somensjev]

-snip-

dont let them resolve the argument, i was enjoying my popcorn :smallamused:

anyway, i'm 100% certain that elder titans dont have the "x as character" sections (although, it's been a while since i read the book)

[Gabe the Bard]

The most powerful 3.5 character I built and played was a bard/sublime chord. He was a diplomancer with a bunch of feats, spells, and items that boosted diplomacy, bluff, and perform, so he could talk or sing his way into or out of most situations. He also had a pretty varied spell list which included a lot of healing and utility spells. Aside from the usual fun stuff like Glibness, he could also cast Mass Fly, Mass Heal, Greater Dispel, and Summon Elemental Monolith. The sublime chord's Song of Timelessness basically lets you shut down a single powerful threat like Maze or Forcecage, while a harmonizing rapier plus the Greater Harmonize spell from Races of Stone lets you do this to multiple targets. But the main reason he was powerful wasn't so much that he was personally strong, but he supercharged the rest of the party, using all the Inspire Courage boosters from the various splatbooks (except for dragonfire inspiration). My DM said this was the best 3.5 build he had seen in the whole group and that it was the reason he had to bump the CR of the encounters way up. We were seeing epic level monsters way before we were epic ourselves.

[ShurikVch]

since everyone in the titan discussion is arguing past each other, let me clarify.

the proponent of the titan petitioner is making 2 claims.

1. since there is a table in the epic level handbook that lists an ECL for the elder titan that is equal to the number of RHD it has, the elder titan is a playable, LA +0 race. this claim is correct. assuming all the information is correct. i'm AFB, so can't check. most 3.0 materials did not include an LA line in the statblock of the monster, you had to look elsewhere for that information. that does not make the information any less valid, if it was printed in that book.

2. since the petitioner template is not excluded for PCs in the text of the book itself, its errata, or its 3.5 update, it is available to PCs. since it does not mention any change to LA in the template, you simply use the LA of the base creature. this is also correct. anything a template does not explicitly change is not changed from the base creature.

however, the elder titan petitioner is an illegal build for this challenge, because the OP states that only monsters with X as character entries can be used, and the elder titan lacks such an entry, iirc (i'm AFB).
Glad you support my core points
Honestly, I'm completely missed "X as character" requirement. Was it added later?
OP's logic is flawed, because, say, all fiends in the game (except some half-fiends) notably lacks this entry, so even such classical (if suboptimal) build as succubus bard, suddenly became illegal. Fiendish Codex 2 have 9 (Nine) playable Level Adjustments, but not a single "X as character"
Celestials not fare much better. For all listed LA - not a single "X as character" (except Half-Celestial template), and BoED also completely without it
This way cut out the most low-ECL creature with Teleport at-will (Hound Archon) and constant True Seen (Erinyes)
All 3 (three) creatures from Tome of Battle also lack this entry despite having valid LA
Also, templates seldom possess such entry. Farewell, Lolth-Touched... :smallfrown:
And, of course, this entry completely absent for such notable creatures as Dwarf, Gnome, Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc and Halfling :smallbiggrin:
On the other hand, several creatures with "LA -" have this entry. For example, Abeil Queen, Ocean Strider, Draegloth and Death Slaad

[Vortenger]

In my opinion, for a practical optimization game, the most powerful build would be an Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Incantatrix 10. Druid 10/ Planar Shepherd 10 would be a close second.

[OldTrees1]

In my opinion, for a practical optimization game, the most powerful build would be an Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Incantatrix 10. Druid 10/ Planar Shepherd 10 would be a close second.

Listing your personal limit between Practical and Theoretical optimization is a clever way to answer this question. By giving examples of the different PO caps that different groups have.

My Personal PO limit
With spellcasters my PO limit is Red Wizard (More powerful prestige classes require my approval and nerfing) and abusive spells (polymorph) can be used but not abused (If there is no non abusive usage, then the spell is banned).

With warriors my PO limit is 1 Full Attack per round (supplemented with as many AoOs as you can get via Combat Reflexes) and each non minion enemy should be able to survive 1 blow from the warrior.

With skillmonkeys my PO limit is that they can be uncontested in their skills of choice (except Iaijutsu Focus?). However an undetectable skillmonkey is still in danger against Int 14 enemies.

[Aegis013]

In my opinion, for a practical optimization game, the most powerful build would be an Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Incantatrix 10. ...

This is the most powerful build I've ever used in a real game. I focused entirely on buffing, battlefield control, and support/utility, except when I was alone and relied on polymorph.

I helped most of the other players make characters, so nobody felt overshadowed (the druid did fine, because druid, the warblade got most of my buffs, so he was fine). Only the rogue who came in late in the game, and at which point I handed over things like my wand of knock, since I was being a faux rogue, until he joined, since whisper gnome with collar of umbral metamorphosis made it pretty easy.

As an aside, what page is the table that lists the Eldar Titan's ECL on? I'm not seeing it in my ELH.
Edit: Nevermind, just found it. Don't know what DM would allow you to play an ECL 70 race though.