Master Spellthief and Chameleon interpretation

[Taklinn]

Hey fellas,
Long-time lurker, first time poster here. I had a couple rules-as-written interpretation question that I am finding to be a headscratcher.

The feat Master Spellthief is written as follows:
"Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal."

Now enter Chameleon. While using the arcane focus variety of aptitude focus, would this allow you to stack for stealing spells? The levels do appear to grant arcane spellcasting from where I am sitting.

To take this one step further -
The ability to steal a spell gives you the ability to cast a spell based on the following:

"After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell imself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell. Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell). A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away."

Does that mean that I would therefore qualify to gain an 8th level spell slot with Extra Slot, which is worded as follows:
You gain one extra spell slot in your daily allotment, at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.

[Diarmuid]

As written, Master Spellthief advances what level of spell you can Steal, but it does not advance the level of spell you can Store.

Storing spells is solely based off your Spellthief level.

A ST 4 / Arcane Caster 8 with Master Spellthief could certainly Steal up to 6th level spells, but would not be able to Store more than 4th level spells for purposes of casting them (as if the person stolen from had cast them) or using the slots to fuel Spellthief spells he knows of the same level or lower.

[Taklinn]

As written, Master Spellthief advances what level of spell you can Steal, but it does not advance the level of spell you can Store.

Storing spells is solely based off your Spellthief level.

A ST 4 / Arcane Caster 8 with Master Spellthief could certainly Steal up to 6th level spells, but would not be able to Store more than 4th level spells for purposes of casting them (as if the person stolen from had cast them) or using the slots to fuel Spellthief spells he knows of the same level or lower.

However, a spellthief 9/chameleon 10 - would they qualify for the Extra Slot feat as I presented it?

[Diarmuid]

You would only qualify for the feat to grant an 8th level spell slot while you had a 9th level spell "stolen".

Any other time, you would not be "able to cast" a 9th level spell and thus the feat would become inactive.

[Taklinn]

You would only qualify for the feat to grant an 8th level spell slot while you had a 9th level spell "stolen".

Any other time, you would not be "able to cast" a 9th level spell and thus the feat would become inactive.

I don't know if I agree with that. What are you basing that on? The only pre-requisite for the feat is spellcaster 4th.

[Diarmuid]

When you pick the feat, you pick which slot you're going to gain and the slot you gain is based on "one lower than the highest level spell you can cast".

You couldnt say "I could buy a 9th level scroll" to justify taking an 8th level slot with the feat. If you currently cannot cast a 9th level spell, then you cannot gain an 8th level slot.

Much like if you have an 11 Strength, but have a +2 item. You can take Power Attack as a feat, but if you lose the item then you can no longer benefit from the feat. There is verbiage in one of the completes about losing prerequisites for feats and/or PrC's.

Even if you could get a permament 8th level spell slot from the feat...you wouldnt know any 8th level spells to memorize in it.

[Taklinn]

However, you are not losing a prerequisite. The only prerequisite is spellcaster 4th.

Edit: Also, you could prepare spells in the eighth level slot because you can also use the slot with divine focus and divine focus prepares spells as a cleric.

Edit 2: Using a scroll is not casting a spell. It is "basically like casting a spell."

[cerin616]

So, since you are taking the feat using a spellthief spell, I would think you can only apply this "gained slot" to your spellthief class. Would you agree?

[Taklinn]

So, since you are taking the feat using a spellthief spell, I would think you can only apply this "gained slot" to your spellthief class. Would you agree?

The feat does not specify that.

[Diarmuid]

Ok, I'll grant that by RAW I guess that's true. You would have to have a 9th level spell stored when you took the feat (or whenever you wanted to swap into it via the Chameleon bonus feat ability).

I would say that the extra slot stays only through a very strict reading of RAW, and by that same strict reading of RAW the spells you can choose to prepare for the day are the ones listed in the Chameleon class table. There is no allotment for spells over 6th level so I would say you could metamagic something 1-6 into that 8th level slot, but not actually prepare an 8th level spell in that slot, even if you had a spellbook with the spell in it. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.

You certainly wouldnt know any Spellthief spells to memorize in that slot (again, unless you're going to metamagic the heck out of one).

As a DM, I would not allow this as I would consider having the spell slot 1 level higher than the slot gained part of the requirement. I realise that's not what you're asking, just wanted to put it out there.

Edit - The feat does not indeed specify what to do if you have multple casting classes. Is there errata on that somewhere?

[Taklinn]

It was interesting to me that the hang up in your mind was whether the feat would deactivate. I thought surely the hang up would be whether casting a stolen spell truly counted as casting.

Btw, the chameleon arcane spell list: "You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class."

Edit: Thanks for the response! :smallsmile:

[cerin616]

It probably does work by RAW, but I agree, since Table supersedes text, chameleon has no ability to prepare spells over level 6, you can't prepare 8th level spells as a chameleon. Although, I might even rule as a DM that "You get one extra slot in your daily allotment" rules chameleon out entirely. Chameleons don't have a daily allotment, and have an at-will allotment.

[Taklinn]

It probably does work by RAW, but I agree, since Table supersedes text, chameleon has no ability to prepare spells over level 6, you can't prepare 8th level spells as a chameleon. Although, I might even rule as a DM that "You get one extra slot in your daily allotment" rules chameleon out entirely. Chameleons don't have a daily allotment, and have an at-will allotment.

1) Text supercedes tables unless I have teleported the the bizzaro plane.
2) Chameleons have a daily allotment regardless of whether they choose the focus or not. They just can't cast from it without the focus.

[Diarmuid]

If you have a 9th level spell stolen, technically you can cast a 9th level spell. Strictly by RAW that works. As I said, I wouldnt let it fly if I were running the game, but I can discuss RAW I dont necessarily agree with =).

Your quote is fine, but you need to keep reading: "Your spells per day are noted on table 5-2..."

I will admit I'm using the dndtools version of the class so if it's different in the actual book I can accept that.

There does not appear to be any mechanic for learning spells or spells known so that's why I'm saying the table dictates what spells you have available to "prepare".

Edit - I would disagree that they have the allotment when not using the ability that grants it. Though they do get it for 24 hours when they use the ability, so that would give them enough time to rest and prepare the spells.

Would you also say they have a caster level when not utilizing the arcane focus?

[cerin616]

Edit - I would disagree that they have the allotment when not using the ability that grants it. Though they do get it for 24 hours when they use the ability, so that would give them enough time to rest and prepare the spells.

Would you also say they have a caster level when not utilizing the arcane focus?

You can also refocus it half way through the day by switching to marshal and then back, which should theoretically give you a reset on your spells.

[Diarmuid]

But then also requiring you to rest again and prepare again. Isnt there also some verbiage somewhere about spells cast in the last 12 or 24 hours counting against what you can memorize to avoid wizards getting multiple compliments of spells available per day, especially in the case of short "rest" shenanigans?

And if you went divine with it, then you'd only be able to prepare spells at sunrise (I think, or maybe it was sunset).

[Taklinn]

If you have a 9th level spell stolen, technically you can cast a 9th level spell. Strictly by RAW that works. As I said, I wouldnt let it fly if I were running the game, but I can discuss RAW I dont necessarily agree with =).

Your quote is fine, but you need to keep reading: "Your spells per day are noted on table 5-2..."

I will admit I'm using the dndtools version of the class so if it's different in the actual book I can accept that.

There does not appear to be any mechanic for learning spells or spells known so that's why I'm saying the table dictates what spells you have available to "prepare".
That is an interesting twist. I would have just assumed that, since you had a slot, you could add spells to your spellbook as a wizard would.


Edit - I would disagree that they have the allotment when not using the ability that grants it. Though they do get it for 24 hours when they use the ability, so that would give them enough time to rest and prepare the spells.

Would you also say they have a caster level when not utilizing the arcane focus?

I would not suggest they have a caster level without taking the arcane or divine focus. And maybe they don't have the allotment when not using the ability that grants it. But how I interpret this is that the spells per day are there, you just can't prepare or cast arcane spells without the ability.

"You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class. You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook (chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks; see page 178 of the Player's Handbook for details). Your spells per day are noted on Table 5—2: The Chameleon."

edit: the resetting/short rest shenanigans had never occured to me. I may have to investigate this further.

edit 2: from d20srd
"Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

[bekeleven]

I can't speak to Master Spellthief - the feat is broken all to high heaven - but Chameleon can cast 9s with the proper feat layout. The common technique is Planar Touchstone (Catalogs of Enlightenment) granting the ability to cast 9s, then extra spell slot getting 7s and 8s. Due to when feats are gained, you only gain 8s before 20 without DCFS, but try to get heighten spell. Then you floating feat earth spell when you level up to 21, meaning on that day you have the ability to cast 10s, then take Extra Spell Slot for a 9th level chameleon slot. When you swap your feat off, you don't actually lose the feat prerequisites due to the way Extra Slot is worded, so you retain 9s with CL 20.

Speaking of CL20, Chameleon double CLs is another reason Master Spellthief is broken.

[Diarmuid]

By strict RAW, I won't argue the chameleon can't get this spell slots, I just say they could only use them to memorize metamagiced spells level 1-6.

They have no ability to learn new spells so the only spells they can prepare are dictated by what the class specifies.

[bekeleven]

By strict RAW, I won't argue the chameleon can't get this spell slots, I just say they could only use them to memorize metamagiced spells level 1-6.

They have no ability to learn new spells so the only spells they can prepare are dictated by what the class specifies.

They have no ability to "learn" any spells. They buy a blessed book and copy spells from wizards, or fill it in by taking Extra Spell and writing it down every day.

And their divine spells are prepared normally: Metaphysically picking god's pocket. Nowhere in the chameleon class does it place some limit on preparing spells, arcane or divine, up to level 6. You fill the slots you have. If there are caster level issues, then relax because Chameleon 10 has CL 20.

[Taklinn]

The Chameleon doesn't have a spell list though... There are no specified known spells - it is literally whatever I can get into my spellbook. Greater Dispel Magic in a third level slot? done. Haste in a first level slot? Thanks.

[Diarmuid]

I think this thread is cementing the Chameleon prc in the banned list for any games I run :-).

Just far too much room for abuse.

[Taklinn]

Hehe. We haven't even touched the earth spell shenanigans to get 9/9 of whatever spell you can find on paper at CL 40-something all day persisted by spell dancer! let the abuse commence! Collossus of war, look out - here we come.

[bekeleven]

I think this thread is cementing the Chameleon prc in the banned list for any games I run :-).

Just far too much room for abuse.

Chameleon is a lot of fun, and very flexible, but its money-saving tricks take a lot of time (1 spell per day, and you're probably using that feat slot for something else if adventuring) and it's still getting all spell levels significantly later than a full caster (at least two levels, barring worse cheese than I just gave).

Worse cheese would include things like Illumian sigils to get 9s before epic.

[Skevvix]

Now enter Chameleon. While using the arcane focus variety of aptitude focus, would this allow you to stack for stealing spells? The levels do appear to grant arcane spellcasting from where I am sitting.



One thing that many people miss about the Chameleon is that they cannot use any of the features gained from their apptitude focus to qualify for a feat, prestige class or other option.

Specific trumps general, so if this was attempted in a game I was running, I would say no.

[Taklinn]

You could almost make a case of that being specific versus specific, however.

Master Spellthief says: "Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal."

Specifically, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting, which chameleon does via aptitude focus.

vs.

Chameleon says: "You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option."

They are both equally specific. Or that is what I would contend if I wanted to steal spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would err of the side of this not working due to Chameleon not counting as an arcane casting class. It is a class that can, through arcane focus, cast arcane spells, but nothing about the class inherently has arcane spellcasting.

One can spend your whole career in divine focus and never be able to cast an arcane spell.

[Diarmuid]

The wording on MS is specific in that it calls out "any class that grants acrane spellcasting".

I just dont know if Chameleon counts or not. It does have an ability that "grants arcane spellcasting" but I know the intention on what it means, but we've been discussing this as purely RAW to this point.

[cerin616]

Good spot on the qualifications through a focus.

I would rule not, as the arcane spell casting is granted via a focus, and since it is granted via a focus, it cannot be used to qualify for anything.