Let's fix Efreet! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 01:59 PM

Many people think Planar Binding is broken because you can use it to call an Efreeti. However, the real problem is the Efreeti itself. An Efreeti is CR 8 monster. That means an 8th level party is supposed to be able to defeat an Efreeti should they meet one, only losing about 25% of their daily resources in the process. Remember, defeating an encounter doesn't just mean killing it. All it means is that the challenge is overcome, and the creatures involved do what you want them to, whether that means getting out of your way via death, or helping you out if you defeated them through social means. That creates a problem: the CR 8 of an Efreeti means that an 8th level party should be able to convince it to grant its 3 Wishes without major resource expenditure on their part. That's what CR 8 means. Furthermore, it's part of the mythology anyway: you defeat a genie, you get it's wishes. That's perhaps half of how wishes are granted in stories.

You can restrict when the party meets Efreet for any given campaign, but that's not particularly relevant to game balance as a whole: the game should be able to tell the story of your party's adventures in the City of Brass with just as much balance as on the Material. Similarly, you can pervert the Wishes in some manner, but doing so is still unbalanced: the players shouldn't have access to Wish-level ways of modifying the world, whether those modifications result in screwing themselves over or screwing others over.

Now, mythological genies should grant wishes, I'm not disputing that. They don't need to grant Wishes, though. There was no need to model a genie's ability to grant what you ask it for by a 9th level spell, and I'd be shocked that the game designers thought that was reasonable were it not already clear that they're some sort of aliens with inhuman moral systems.

What we need is some way to grant wishes without granting Wishes. So I turn to the playground: suppose we want an effect that is balanced for 25% of the daily resources of an 8th level party. We want something doable by a few 4th level spells, 5th level tops. What is a good way to model a genie's ability to grant wishes, staying within that power curve?

Fouredged Sword

2014-01-09, 02:05 PM

I like them granting wishes, but I make it so their wishes are part of the reward for beating them. I give them no treasure for the encounter and cap the wish at 3400 gp of value (or more if the encounter has a higher CR due to other creatures or such).

Any enhancement bonus to stats is a permanent duration, not an instantaneous effect. (when they wish for stat increases, I give one to each player, they really are not gamebreaking that way).

It is a little metagamy, but it fixes the problem.

Psyren

2014-01-09, 02:07 PM

That creates a problem: the CR 8 of an Efreet means that an 8th level party should be able to convince it to grant its 3 Wishes without major resource expenditure on their part. That's what CR 8 means.

This doesn't follow, to me. Just because you can kill me doesn't mean I'm going to give you anything you ask for - or even if I do, I or my proud clan will probably still set things up to bite you in the posterior down the line.

CR 8 means you can defeat them in a fight, or overcome them in some way if they are an obstacle. It doesn't mean the efreet becomes your loyal cohort/minion/confidante.

For your question, FC2 specifies that when fiends (like glabrezus) grant wishes, they do so with the minimum resource expenditure possible. If someone asks a glabrezu to become stronger for instance, they'll likely get a wish mimicking a bull's strength rather than an inherent bonus unless they're careful about the wording. I could see that being extended to efreeti easily, so just because they're using the Wish SLA doesn't mean they have to use it to its full potential.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 02:18 PM

Horrible nitpicker: efreeti (and djinni) are singular, efreet and djinn are plural... Arabic is not Latin.

Remember, defeating an encounter doesn't just mean killing it. All it means is that the challenge is overcome, and the creatures involved do what you want them to, whether that means getting out of your way via death, or helping you out if you defeated them through social means.

Where do you get this from?

the CR 8 of an Efreet means that an 8th level party should be able to convince it to grant its 3 Wishes without major resource expenditure on their part.

Faulty premise, faulty conclusion.

What is a good way to model a genie's ability to grant wishes, staying within that power curve?

Yeah, the actual problem is wishing. That's honestly easily fixed by adjudication at the table, but if we're talking rules-fixes...

Generally, the wish-granting is creating material things. At-will true creation is still exceedinly powerful, but catches most of that pretty well. Other wishes can be carried out physically by the efreeti (carrying the wisher to where they want to go, slaying their enemies, etc.). Major creation could be more appropriate, since the theme of "impermanent riches" is pretty common; it would also be more balanced, and nicely in keeping with the efreet's evil alignment ("I did what you told me to, not what you wanted me to" is very LE).

And, of course, "3 wishes every day" is horrible in itself. "Every 101 days" wouldn't be so bad; "per person, ever" wouldn't be so bad, either. Both would still be extremely powerful, though.

I'm not entirely convinced that efreet need to be able to grant wishes anyway; that's usually djinn (but, then, noble djinn are also relative weaklings). Efreet would pretty much just have general spell-like abilities, particularly polymorph self or shapechange, and baleful polymorph.

Also, you correctly point out another big problem:

CR 8

The power-scale of D&D 3.5 is such that an efreeti, capable of granting wishes, should have a much higher CR. 16, maybe? Increase HD, add spell-like abilities, etc.

It's also completely unclear why efreet can only use their greatest powers for others... pretty arbitrary.

Ultimately, the problem is that D&D 3.5 was written with the assumption of competent human adjudication, though.

Red Fel

2014-01-09, 02:25 PM

Since we're using the word "wish" in the ordinary parlance, instead of the spell, let's look at what it actually means.

According to an online dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wish?s=t), the noun form of a wish means: an act or instance of wishing. a request or command: I was never forgiven for disregarding my father's wishes. an expression of a wish, often one of a kindly or courteous nature: to send one's best wishes. something wished or desired: He got his wish—a new car.
Let's focus on the first one - a request or command.

Well, that's easy, then. Best an Efreeti in an encounter, and it must obey three commands, pursuant to the usual rules (won't do anything in blatant violation of its alignment or inherently self-destructive), to the best of its ability. Not wishes, just commands. And it may be free to interpret those commands liberally, or even infer commands where there are none. For example, a character mentions he's thirsty. The Efreeti can go to the saloon, punch a tough-looking guy, grab the bottle he's nursing, and bring it back to the character. "Your wish, my command!" And now the character has wasted a wish, and has an angry drunk bearing down on him.

As an aside, I thought Noble Djinn were the ones who could grant Wishes, not Efreet, and that you had only a 1% chance to summon one. Was I mistaken?

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-09, 02:29 PM

I'd add a bit of other mythology to add a hard-counter to the resource gain. Give some amount of something that is clearly valuable and a boon. But now attach at curse (I'd probably use geas, but curse fits the OP's level restriction better). The idea is that you get what you want, plus a little something you don't want.

The idea is akin to Fafnir. You get your heart's desire, but you get warped through a combo of "I got something for nothing, now everything else seems hard" and "I got what I wanted, now I'm never letting it go." Implementing this as a mechanic will be challenging, but aside from making a unique mechanic (Curse of the Efreet or some such), I think bestow curse is probably good enough. Put some fluff on the curse, such that "your character is unreasonably possessive about the x, and this affects your judgement, applying [penalty to x stat]."

The real issue is what can the wish/curse grant. Well, 4th level wbl-breaking stuff is pretty boring, from what I recall. I'll have to give it some thought.

There are some guidelines in Fiend of Corruption in Fiend Folio that I found helpful, but I think it's still stronger than intended.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 02:31 PM

As an aside, I thought Noble Djinn were the ones who could grant Wishes, not Efreet, and that you had only a 1% chance to summon one. Was I mistaken?

Dude, come on, that's an SRD lookup away. :smallamused:

Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)
"Spell-Like Abilities [...] 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only) [...]"

Incidentally, defeating a monster actually just means that the monster is defeated... and in the case of a creature with plane shift at will, that can easily mean "fled to where you'll not find it." (That plane shift is also a great way to fulfill "take me to X" wishes.)

Red Fel

2014-01-09, 02:37 PM

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 02:43 PM

@Rhynn: Whoops! Looked right past it, my bad. Although the SRD also says "up to three," which doesn't always mean "three," or even "one."

The SRD doesn't say that the efreeti grants those wishes to anyone to begin with, but it can grant up to three of them. (The intent and meaning being obvious: it can grant wishes, and once it has granted three, it can't grant any until the next day.) The problem is that a CR 8 creature who is (regardless of how you interpret "defeat") factually trivial to summon and compel can grant wishes.

As an aside: nevermind what an 8th-level party can do, a 16th-level party can pretty much milk efreet for wishes they can't cast yet (with no XP cost, too), excepting DM adjudication (which we've ruled out as a solution as a premise, basically).

killem2

2014-01-09, 02:44 PM

@Rhynn: Whoops! Looked right past it, my bad. Although the SRD also says "up to three," which doesn't always mean "three," or even "one."

/thread

Seriously, this is where the dm gets to decide if there is a wish able to be granted. Maybe the creature doesn't feel the group is mature enough to handle it, and sees them as novices.

Who knows what ever you want to make up, raw supports upto three. :smallcool:

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 02:50 PM

Horrible nitpicker: efreeti (and djinni) are singular, efreet and djinn are plural... Arabic is not Latin.

Ah yes, I should have noticed that.

This doesn't follow, to me. Just because you can kill me doesn't mean I'm going to give you anything you ask for - or even if I do, I or my proud clan will probably still set things up to bite you in the posterior down the line.

CR 8 means you can defeat them in a fight, or overcome them in some way if they are an obstacle. It doesn't mean the efreet becomes your loyal cohort/minion/confidante.

Where do you get this from?

Faulty premise, faulty conclusion.

Let me put it this way: you have a social encounter. Your goal is to convince an Efreeti to give you its three wishes for the day. Is that not an EL 8 encounter? If not, why? In general, to determine the EL of a social encounter, you use the CRs of the beings you are trying to overcome.

For your question, FC2 specifies that when fiends (like glabrezus) grant wishes, they do so with the minimum resource expenditure possible. If someone asks a glabrezu to become stronger for instance, they'll likely get a wish mimicking a bull's strength rather than an inherent bonus unless they're careful about the wording. I could see that being extended to efreeti easily, so just because they're using the Wish SLA doesn't mean they have to use it to its full potential.

Then it's dependent on how good your wording is, which has nothing to do with your character's capabilities and is thoroughly unbalanced. Not really a solution.

Yeah, the actual problem is wishing. That's honestly easily fixed by adjudication at the table, but if we're talking rules-fixes...

Generally, the wish-granting is creating material things. At-will true creation is still exceedinly powerful, but catches most of that pretty well. Other wishes can be carried out physically by the efreeti (carrying the wisher to where they want to go, slaying their enemies, etc.). Major creation could be more appropriate, since the theme of "impermanent riches" is pretty common; it would also be more balanced, and nicely in keeping with the efreet's evil alignment ("I did what you told me to, not what you wanted me to" is very LE).

And, of course, "3 wishes every day" is horrible in itself. "Every 101 days" wouldn't be so bad; "per person, ever" wouldn't be so bad, either. Both would still be extremely powerful, though.

I'm not entirely convinced that efreet need to be able to grant wishes anyway; that's usually djinn (but, then, noble djinn are also relative weaklings). Efreet would pretty much just have general spell-like abilities, particularly polymorph self or shapechange, and baleful polymorph.

Also, you correctly point out another big problem:

The power-scale of D&D 3.5 is such that an efreeti, capable of granting wishes, should have a much higher CR. 16, maybe? Increase HD, add spell-like abilities, etc.

It's also completely unclear why efreet can only use their greatest powers for others... pretty arbitrary.

Ultimately, the problem is that D&D 3.5 was written with the assumption of competent human adjudication, though.

The timespan isn't an issue for balance reasons, since you're only encountering a given Efreeti once anyway.

Major Creation seems appropriate. Maybe give it a longer duration, depending on what makes sense for the resource expenditure. I should crunch some numbers on that. And there definitely is a tradition of the Efreeti performing tasks personally.

Since we're using the word "wish" in the ordinary parlance, instead of the spell, let's look at what it actually means.

According to an online dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wish?s=t), the noun form of a wish means: an act or instance of wishing. a request or command: I was never forgiven for disregarding my father's wishes. an expression of a wish, often one of a kindly or courteous nature: to send one's best wishes. something wished or desired: He got his wish—a new car.
Let's focus on the first one - a request or command.

Well, that's easy, then. Best an Efreeti in an encounter, and it must obey three commands, pursuant to the usual rules (won't do anything in blatant violation of its alignment or inherently self-destructive), to the best of its ability. Not wishes, just commands. And it may be free to interpret those commands liberally, or even infer commands where there are none. For example, a character mentions he's thirsty. The Efreeti can go to the saloon, punch a tough-looking guy, grab the bottle he's nursing, and bring it back to the character. "Your wish, my command!" And now the character has wasted a wish, and has an angry drunk bearing down on him.

As an aside, I thought Noble Djinn were the ones who could grant Wishes, not Efreet, and that you had only a 1% chance to summon one. Was I mistaken?

In 3.5, Efreet grant Wishes. PF is a bit different, and earlier editions are a bit different yet. The whole "you have 1% chance to summon a noble" whatever is something that hasn't been in the game since 2e, for obvious reasons.

As I mentioned above, there are definitely things an Efreeti could just do in person, but I do think that there is something of a mythological precedent for magical wishes, specifically.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 02:51 PM

Seriously, this is where the dm gets to decide if there is a wish able to be granted. Maybe the creature doesn't feel the group is mature enough to handle it, and sees them as novices.

You're not seeing the issue.

Planar binding / planar ally (6th level spell) plus charm monster (4th level spell) gets you an efreeti who perceives you in the best light possible, and if that's not enough, you can actually compel it. And then there's countless methods to force the efreeti to bargain for its continued existence.

And all of that is basically how it should work (well, with djinn, not efreet).

Urpriest also ruled out "the DM can fix it in play" as a solution, since it's the obvious one, and he's interested in the rules.

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-09, 02:56 PM

Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)
"Spell-Like Abilities [...] 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only) [...]"

Arguably, if the efreeti grants zero wishes, it hasn't done anything. Thus, it didn't use it's power "grant up to three wishes." To have actually used that power, it may have to take an action and grant something.

Severe levels of RAW splicing here, it just occurred to me that that specific wording might not encompass doing nothing. I could be wrong, but the action "efreeti grants no wish" sounds invalid. Actions are defined by doing something, not by not doing something, in general.

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 02:58 PM

Another option is to promptly put players into a situation where they need to use their wishes just to escape. A classic, for example - the players defeat an Efreeti, and then...

Efreeti: Teleports the party into the middle of a desert.
Master: "Why did you do that?"
Efreeti: "So that you can decide on your wishes, free of distractions."
Master: "But we'll die of dehydration out here!"
Efreeti: Conjures a few flasks of water. "That's number one."
Master: "That wasn't a wish! Anyway, we need a way to get out of this desert!"
Efreeti: Conjures a wagon. "That's two."
Master: "That's not what I meant! And how are we supposed to transport the whole party in that?"
Efreeti: Conjures a very small goat to pull the wagon. "That's three. Good luck."

Eventually, the players will fear Efreet, not because they're afraid of the danger of the monster, but because they're afraid of winning and getting those horrible wishes.

@Rhynn: Whoops! Looked right past it, my bad. Although the SRD also says "up to three," which doesn't always mean "three," or even "one."

Screwing up the plot with Wish-level magic is just as unbalanced as benefiting the players with Wish-level magic.

/thread

Seriously, this is where the dm gets to decide if there is a wish able to be granted. Maybe the creature doesn't feel the group is mature enough to handle it, and sees them as novices.

Who knows what ever you want to make up, raw supports upto three. :smallcool:

The DM's job is to make the game suitable for the players. Balance is what the rules are supposed to accomplish.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 03:00 PM

Let me put it this way: you have a social encounter. Your goal is to convince an Efreeti to give you its three wishes for the day. Is that not an EL 8 encounter? If not, why? In general, to determine the EL of a social encounter, you use the CRs of the beings you are trying to overcome.

Is there anything in the rules to support the idea that purely social encounters have EL? CR and EL are pretty much just about combat, in practice.

The difficulty of a social encounter is only very indirectly dependent on the CR of a creature, and CRs are calculated purely from primarily combat-related attributes. The HD of a creature affects its saves and skills, but a CR 20 HD 40 creature can be easier to lie to, cheat, swindle, or persuade than a CR 5 HD 5 creature, simply by virtue of ability scores and skill ranks. (Although some social skills do account for HD and Will, but that's mostly Intimidate.)

Major Creation seems appropriate. Maybe give it a longer duration, depending on what makes sense for the resource expenditure. I should crunch some numbers on that. And there definitely is a tradition of the Efreeti performing tasks personally.

Yeah, I think that between an efreeti's plane shift, permanent image, and personal power (relative to mundanes, if not high-level PCs/NPCs; the actual power of efreet in a setting depends on how common and how powerful those are), adding major creation should make them capable of performing most tasks. There's no reason efreet should be able to successfully perform all tasks, anyway - "I tried, master, but capturing a 20th-level wizard is beyond me" is a perfectly fine result... a 20th-level wizard is more powerful than an efreeti, after all.

Severe levels of RAW splicing here, it just occurred to me that that specific wording might not encompass doing nothing. I could be wrong, but the action "efreeti grants no wish" sounds invalid. Actions are defined by doing something, not by not doing something, in general.

So you're saying that efreet must use invisibility and wall of fire three times a day? Okay. What order must they use their abilities in? What about the at-will abilities? Do they have to use each one of those once a day, or a random one every round that they're not using some other spell-like ability?

That's not even being clever with RAW, that's just being intentionally bizarre.

Psyren

2014-01-09, 03:01 PM

Let me put it this way: you have a social encounter. Your goal is to convince an Efreeti to give you its three wishes for the day. Is that not an EL 8 encounter? If not, why? In general, to determine the EL of a social encounter, you use the CRs of the beings you are trying to overcome.

I'm not necessarily disputing this part (though Rhynn raises some very salient objections to your premise.) What I am disputing is that there is a need to "fix" anything. Because you are apparently assuming that the party's interaction with this ancient being of law and evil ends once the wishes have been obtained. That's not really the right way to look at Efreet. They are basically walking plothooks; they can be BBEGs in their own right, or at least the Dragon to someone stronger still. If you're looking at them as "DC 24 {persuasion} check - nice roll, you got the wishes, here is your XP" then you're really selling them rather short.

If you're playing them right, even a party that succeeds - even if they get the wishes and the Efreet seems totally, almost obsequiously eager to assist - they should be so paranoid that they will wish for exactly what they need to get the plot to continue moving and not a smidge more. And even wishing for that very obvious thing that has no personal benefits to them, they will agonize over the wording, who should do the talking etc. And if they aren't being that paranoid, your job is to put that fear into them, because these are entities that resent mortals with every fiber of their being.

Then it's dependent on how good your wording is, which has nothing to do with your character's capabilities and is thoroughly unbalanced. Not really a solution.

You mean requesting wishes from immortal beings of Evil and Law is dangerous? I'm shocked and apalled!

Also, the PF ones grant wishes exactly the same as the 3.5 ones do. It's the other genie types where you need a "noble" (Vizier Djinn and Pasha Shaitan.) Marids can also grant wishes, and notably can do so to other genies - they are the most powerful of geniekind.

Kennisiou

2014-01-09, 03:11 PM

The party gets three greater anyspells OR one of them gains 1 more inherent bonus to a stat than they currently have (not the same as +1 inherent bonus, this stacks with other bonuses). The latter's probably a tad strong, but it's a question of making the character better in a permanent way and getting an effect shaped to the party's current story needs.

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 03:11 PM

Is there anything in the rules to support the idea that purely social encounters have EL? CR and EL are pretty much just about combat, in practice.

The difficulty of a social encounter is only very indirectly dependent on the CR of a creature, and CRs are calculated purely from primarily combat-related attributes. The HD of a creature affects its saves and skills, but a CR 20 HD 40 creature can be easier to lie to, cheat, swindle, or persuade than a CR 5 HD 5 creature, simply by virtue of ability scores and skill ranks. (Although some social skills do account for HD and Will, but that's mostly Intimidate.)

If you want to get technical, the DMG suggests on page 41 that such encounters should have a CR equal to the level of the party, maybe lower, but never higher. So convincing an Efreeti to help you out is potentially easier than just killing them.

More generally, the same defenses that apply in combat apply out of combat. Charm Monster has already been mentioned, various other spells fill the same role.

Edit:

I'm not necessarily disputing this part (though Rhynn raises some very salient objections to your premise.) What I am disputing is that there is a need to "fix" anything. Because you are apparently assuming that the party's interaction with this ancient being of law and evil ends once the wishes have been obtained. That's not really the right way to look at Efreet. They are basically walking plothooks; they can be BBEGs in their own right, or at least the Dragon to someone stronger still. If you're looking at them as "DC 24 {persuasion} check - nice roll, you got the wishes, here is your XP" then you're really selling them rather short.

If you're playing them right, even a party that succeeds - even if they get the wishes and the Efreet seems totally, almost obsequiously eager to assist - they should be so paranoid that they will wish for exactly what they need to get the plot to continue moving and not a smidge more. And even wishing for that very obvious thing that has no personal benefits to them, they will agonize over the wording, who should do the talking etc. And if they aren't being that paranoid, your job is to put that fear into them, because these are entities that resent mortals with every fiber of their being.

You mean requesting wishes from immortal beings of Evil and Law is dangerous? I'm shocked and apalled!

Also, the PF ones grant wishes exactly the same as the 3.5 ones do. It's the other genie types where you need a "noble" (Vizier Djinn and Pasha Shaitan.) Marids can also grant wishes, and notably can do so to other genies - they are the most powerful of geniekind.

Psyren, the Efreeti's ability to screw with the plot and make the players sweat doesn't change the balance level of what they're giving access to. A rod that grants a free casting of Apocalypse from the Sky has tons of plot implications and is something a party has to be very smart to apply in an intelligent way and not bring down terrible consequences. It's also not something appropriate to give an 8th level party.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 03:14 PM

More generally, the same defenses that apply in combat apply out of combat. Charm Monster has already been mentioned, various other spells fill the same role.

Not really; AC and hp are irrelevant. Sense Motive is the single most important "defense" in social situations, with Will as a distant second. And as borked as Diplomacy is, there's no defenses there (excepting DM adjudication): a hostile efreeti will become helpful on a DC 50 Diplomacy check, that's it. (And the efreeti's probably not even hostile if you're able to use Diplomacy to begin with...)

Flickerdart

2014-01-09, 03:17 PM

If you want to get technical, the DMG suggests on page 41 that such encounters should have a CR equal to the level of the party, maybe lower, but never higher.
That's probably because it's really easy to pump social skills, so a party convincing a creature more powerful than themselves to do stuff for them is more likely, and should be avoided, while giving them weaker guys to argue with is fine because they can't do anything the PCs couldn't also.

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 03:21 PM

Not really; AC and hp are irrelevant. Sense Motive is the single most important "defense" in social situations, with Will as a distant second. And as borked as Diplomacy is, there's no defenses there (excepting DM adjudication): a hostile efreeti will become helpful on a DC 50 Diplomacy check, that's it. (And the efreeti's probably not even hostile if you're able to use Diplomacy to begin with...)

AC and hp are also irrelevant if you're fighting an SOD-optimized caster, which is presumably the same guy who's handling his social encounters with spells in the first place. If CR means anything, all defenses have to scale.

And while I agree that Bluff's level-scaling is dubious, and Diplomacy's nonexistent, all that means is you can convince an Efreet to help you at a lower level. The risk, though, is still commensurate with the creature's capabilities, since you might have to fight it. So I still think it makes sense to peg the reward to the creature's CR.

Edit:

That's probably because it's really easy to pump social skills, so a party convincing a creature more powerful than themselves to do stuff for them is more likely, and should be avoided, while giving them weaker guys to argue with is fine because they can't do anything the PCs couldn't also.

No, you misunderstand. That passage is setting the encounter's CR, independent of the CR of the creature. Convincing a more powerful creature is still a CR-your-level-or-lower encounter, by those guidelines.

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-09, 03:25 PM

So you're saying that efreet must use invisibility and wall of fire three times a day? Okay. What order must they use their abilities in? What about the at-will abilities? Do they have to use each one of those once a day, or a random one every round that they're not using some other spell-like ability?

That's not even being clever with RAW, that's just being intentionally bizarre.

No, I'm just saying that if you command an efreeti to use its wish granting ability to grant wishes, and it grants zero wishes, then it has actually done nothing. Not sure doing nothing can be construed as meeting that command. That's all.

ericgrau

2014-01-09, 03:26 PM

Change the ability to limited wish, except that its effect is in line with the power of any 4th level or lower spell from any class. How's that?

Psyren

2014-01-09, 03:27 PM

Psyren, the Efreeti's ability to screw with the plot and make the players sweat doesn't change the balance level of what they're giving access to. A rod that grants a free casting of Apocalypse from the Sky has tons of plot implications and is something a party has to be very smart to apply in an intelligent way and not bring down terrible consequences. It's also not something appropriate to give an 8th level party.

This is a poor analogy - all apocalypse from the sky is capable of doing is cause widespread destruction, and is indeed inappropriate for a low-level party. A wish is certainly capable that also, potentially, but it can just as easily be much more subtle and have a much lesser effect than its user intended.

You yourself pointed out how many fictional stories revolve around wishes. Very few of those stories result in "leveling forests, tumbling mountains, and wiping out entire populations of living creatures." In the few instances that they do result in this kind of widespread destruction, usually the final wish is used to undo the catastrophe and the Jackass Genie is sealed away forevermore or outright destroyed, and the story ends with a cautionary Aesop about being careful what you wish for.

Which, by the way, is the other big difference with wishes - they can be used to undo things just as much as to do them. You can't use an apocalypse rod to rebuild your destroyed city or bring everyone back to life - it's a one-way trip. So no, it's a very different situation/power and can in fact be justified to be in the hands of a lower-level adventuring party.

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 03:28 PM

Change the ability to limited wish, except that its effect is in line with the power of any 4th level or lower spell from any class. How's that?

Good, but misses the "creating stuff" aspect. This plus a modified Major Creation could work, though.

This is a poor analogy - all apocalypse from the sky is capable of doing is cause widespread destruction, and is indeed inappropriate for a low-level party. A wish is certainly capable that also, potentially, but it can just as easily be much more subtle and have a much lesser effect than its user intended.

You yourself pointed out how many fictional stories revolve around wishes. Very few of those stories result in "leveling forests, tumbling mountains, and wiping out entire populations of living creatures." In the few instances that they do result in this kind of widespread destruction, usually the final wish is used to undo the catastrophe and the Jackass Genie is sealed away forevermore or outright destroyed, and the story ends with a cautionary Aesop about being careful what you wish for.

Which, by the way, is the other big difference with wishes - they can be used to undo things just as much as to do them. You can't use an apocalypse rod to rebuild your destroyed city or bring everyone back to life - it's a one-way trip. So no, it's a very different situation/power and can in fact be justified to be in the hands of a lower-level adventuring party.

The whole point of making an effect something that only Wish can cure is so that only high level parties can cure it. If there is any balance to those requirements, then a low level party using Wish to cure an ailment is just as unbalanced.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 03:28 PM

If CR means anything, all defenses have to scale.

Just to clarify: are you saying that they do or they don't?

I think that they don't, obviously. No one's defenses against Diplomacy scale, in fact.

The risk, though, is still commensurate with the creature's capabilities, since you might have to fight it.

Sure, the risk involved with failing is related to the creature's abilities. The chance of failing isn't, though.

So I still think it makes sense to peg the reward to the creature's CR.

That is true, yes. Like I said, it would make sense to me for efreet to have much higher CRs and HD.

No, I'm just saying that if you command an efreeti to use its wish granting ability to grant wishes, and it grants zero wishes, then it has actually done nothing. Not sure doing nothing can be construed as meeting that command. That's all.

Oh, okay. What was that even in answer to, then?

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 03:33 PM

Just to clarify: are you saying that they do or they don't?

I think that they don't, obviously. No one's defenses against Diplomacy scale, in fact.

In practice, they don't. (Though Tippy probably has some anti-Diplomacy defenses he can roll out). However, if we're using the CR system as a guide for anything at all, then we have to assume they do (and maybe make some houserules to help that along).

ericgrau

2014-01-09, 03:33 PM

Good, but misses the "creating stuff" aspect. This plus a modified Major Creation could work, though.
Create food and water is 3rd level. So you could make anything as useful as food and water or a little better. Unless you mean valuables? You could take a guess on how much valuables a spell could make but I think about 300 gp is fair or 900 gp from 3 wishes. You may want to define this explicitly of course. I wouldn't actually allow a 4th level spell that generated this much money for a player to spam day after day, but for something that can only be used part of the time it's fine. NPC spellcasters for hire make as much.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 03:37 PM

In practice, they don't. (Though Tippy probably has some anti-Diplomacy defenses he can roll out). However, if we're using the CR system as a guide for anything at all, then we have to assume they do (and maybe make some houserules to help that along).

Certainly not. The CR system is sort of decent as a rough help or aid to determine how something might stack up in a fight against PCs, and that's it. There's no reason to shoehorn it for social encounters just because the DMG has some bad advice (not rules) in it.

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-09, 03:40 PM

Someone had postulated that the efreeti can choose to grant zero wishes and qualify as "granting up to three wishes." Sorry if I mistakenly implied that it was you that made this claim, Rhynn.

Psyren

2014-01-09, 03:42 PM

The whole point of making an effect something that only Wish can cure is so that only high level parties can cure it. If there is any balance to those requirements, then a low level party using Wish to cure an ailment is just as unbalanced.

Or it forces them, if at low levels, to do something pretty dangerous to gain access to the power they need. Something that may seem easy on its face (CR 8) but can have substantial repercussions down the line.

The point is that the option is there if they absolutely need it and aren't able to wait until high levels, but there are hooks and caveats built in for the DM's benefit.

Simply put, you're saying the ability is unbalanced while ignoring all the safeguards built into the system to make players not want to do this unless they absolutely have to, simply because those safeguards aren't rigidly and mechanically defined. Planar Binding itself has "don't use this spell lightly" written all over it - both the various dangers built into the spell itself, and the fact that it's a Calling effect, meaning you are trapping a real efreet that really exists somewhere out on the planes. Even if you succeed, even if you slit his throat afterwards or wipe his memory, someone is going to notice what you did, particularly at level 8.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 03:57 PM

Someone had postulated that the efreeti can choose to grant zero wishes and qualify as "granting up to three wishes." Sorry if I mistakenly implied that it was you that made this claim, Rhynn.

Ah, okay. I think that was Red Fel? That makes sense, now! And yeah, I agree, FWIW... although I think the solution is simpler, there simply being nothing that says "the efreet must grant up to three wishes" (which could be contorted to mean "between 0 and 3" if someone wanted to pretend not to understand simple sentences).

Scow2

2014-01-09, 04:01 PM

The whole point of making an effect something that only Wish can cure is so that only high level parties can cure it. If there is any balance to those requirements, then a low level party using Wish to cure an ailment is just as unbalanced.Okay... you just gave me a good laugh with this line. There's no such thing as "Balance" in 3.5, and the attempts to shoehorn it in have made the game worse for everyone. Also, are you completely unaware of how many low-level threats are capable of inflicting "You must acquire a Wish or Miracle to cure" statuses and the like?

My way to fix the Efreet and other similar genies without breaking the source material of the narrative is "A Genie only give three wishes to any given person, total. A person can only get three wishes granted by genies."

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 04:10 PM

I disagree with your premise. I find the problem is that Planar Binding can compel action from the monster. That's effectively a level 9 enchantment spell rolled into a lower level Conjuration if you can make a Charisma-check (and Wizards are stupid-good at pumping individual checks, another problem).

If Planar Binding just brought the creature to you, like in earlier D&D editions, and if Gate lacked the "instant servitude"-clause, there would be no problem. Doubly so if the dumb "generic creature"-clause was removed; why are you able to call generic creatures? What kind of lottery does the spell play?

Force the caster to first find out the truename (or some defining characteristic, but truename should be the only way to truly force someone into the binding circle) of whomever he wants to summon and such and we're a bit closer to the way Binding should work, and that'd make creatures' truenames and such matter a whole lot more too. Not to mention it'd make it impossible to summon generic Efreeti or such to grant you Wishes.

Another handy rule in place would be to make it impossible for creatures to grant Wishes under compulsion. It's not even that farfetched; the ability to grant a Wish requires altering reality itself. A creature under compulsion generally doesn't act to the full extent of their power.

At least make it require successful Mind Rape-level effect of making the creature actually want to do it, after locating and finding such a creature and it'd be a bit harder. It's also possible to simply make Mind Rape-type effects also make the affected creature (unless somehow reverted) forever unable to grant/cast "Wish".

Maginomicon

2014-01-09, 04:14 PM

Personally, I'd resolve this problem by making the wish-granting ability of an efreeti merely a component of a wish "charged incantation" ritual (PM me if you want to know the details of this homebrew variant of mine). The efreeti may or may not actually know the wish ritual, and even if it did, you'd have to convince the efreeti to conduct the ritual (perhaps by using The Giant's Diplomacy variant). Efreeti don't have any ranks in Knowledge (arcana), so if the Knowledge (arcana) DC is above 10, they'd automatically fail the ritual, period. Problem solved.

The PCs can look into ways to get around these limitations, but then you as GM can use that as a plot hook to make them go wherever you want and do whatever you want. Double-win for you as GM.

This is all moot though because personally, I currently ban wish in my games.

Gemini476

2014-01-09, 04:26 PM

In practice, they don't. (Though Tippy probably has some anti-Diplomacy defenses he can roll out). However, if we're using the CR system as a guide for anything at all, then we have to assume they do (and maybe make some houserules to help that along).
The easiest and most absolute defense is being a PC. After that there's being Mindless or having an Int lower than 3, but if you're an animal or magical beast then Wild Empathy can still do a lesser version against you. (It maxes out at 1d20+20+Cha, though.)

Force the caster to first find out the truename (or some defining characteristic, but truename should be the only way to truly force someone into the binding circle) of whomever he wants to summon and such and we're a bit closer to the way Binding should work, and that'd make creatures' truenames and such matter a whole lot more too. Not to mention it'd make it impossible to summon generic Efreeti or such to grant you Wishes.

...You do know how horrible the truename mechanics in D&D 3.5 are, right? Not to mention that there's four separate systems -
Truenaming, which has very little to actually do with controlling Outsiders outside some few fluffy things and a single demon-binder PrC and some few bad spells;
Planar Binding, whose descriptions give vague references to truenames (as do the Power Words, for instance), but does little beyond that;
The Words of Creation, which have a very similar fluff to Truenaming, but are less focused on control and more on creation (Dark Speech is also similar but opposite);
And the truename binding feats and spells from some Dragon Magazine that had a spell - Implore? - that enables you to summon 40+HD Outsiders if you stacked it with enough things.

I suppose that you could make it work, but it would be tricky. Especially since the big fluff thing that all references to True Names share is that it's really important, and it's best if no one else knows it. If you do any implementation of the system, you need to include that. And not just by letting you Bind things you know the name of, although that should be a feature.
Not to mention that wizards binding things they don't know about goes all the way back to Faust.
I think Truenaming had it be +2 Truespeak DC for +2 to the relevant Utterance's Save?

Psyren

2014-01-09, 04:31 PM

nedz

2014-01-09, 05:15 PM

Efreeti (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)
"Spell-Like Abilities [...] 1/day—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only) [...]"

IIRC in previous editions the restriction about granting them to nongenies only was absent. This created the classic two Efreet encounter which becomes a wish-war between the Efreet and the party. This can be simulated by giving the Efreeti a non genie friend of some kind to whom the 3 wishes may be granted during an encounter. This would create a race game whereby you have to defeat the Efreet, without killing it, before it can use up it's wishes or there are none left; loose talk is obviously dangerous which adds more frisson.

I'm not sure that this is a CR 8 encounter though.

As for fixing the monster: well the wishes have to go obviously — unless you are running the sort of game where this spell is common at level 8.

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 05:37 PM

Needing to know exactly what you're calling up is overkill to me. As Gemini rightfully said, summoning something inadvertently or not knowing exactly who you'll get is a fantasy trope, and needing an absolute identifier like a personal truename would undermine that.

I'm okay with the binding circle forcing them if you make the check too. Anything to make the player cocksure and rely too much on the spell, before the day he tragically overextends himself.

There are spells for controlling a creature. Why would Binding circle even do that? It doesn't even make sense. The spell calls a creature. Inwards-turned Magic Circle blocks the creature. What exactly is compelling it? Why should the player be exempted from the Diplomacy/Charming/etc.? Hell, I posit the whole encounter the spell creates would be much more engaging without the ability to make a Charisma-check. Make a Diplomacy check.

The change instantly makes the spell not broken (no way to compel the creatures to grant Wishes for instance), and removes the easy PC access to free Wishes (which we can all agree should not exist).

Also, far as I can think, most instance of binding creatures in fantasy involve specifically calling for some particular creature. D&D literature, for instance, doesn't include a single case of someone Planar Binding a generic demon but rather a specific creature you've got history with.

Can you point me to some examples of where calling a generic creature is the goal of the binder (of course, calling for specific creature can be botched which results in you getting someone else; that's not going anywhere - finding the wrong truename, some high power interceding and sending a different creature instead, )?

...You do know how horrible the truename mechanics in D&D 3.5 are, right? Not to mention that there's four separate systems -
Truenaming, which has very little to actually do with controlling Outsiders outside some few fluffy things and a single demon-binder PrC and some few bad spells;
Planar Binding, whose descriptions give vague references to truenames (as do the Power Words, for instance), but does little beyond that;
The Words of Creation, which have a very similar fluff to Truenaming, but are less focused on control and more on creation (Dark Speech is also similar but opposite);
And the truename binding feats and spells from some Dragon Magazine that had a spell - Implore? - that enables you to summon 40+HD Outsiders if you stacked it with enough things.

I suppose that you could make it work, but it would be tricky. Especially since the big fluff thing that all references to True Names share is that it's really important, and it's best if no one else knows it. If you do any implementation of the system, you need to include that. And not just by letting you Bind things you know the name of, although that should be a feature.
Not to mention that wizards binding things they don't know about goes all the way back to Faust.
I think Truenaming had it be +2 Truespeak DC for +2 to the relevant Utterance's Save?

The truename mechanics in Truenamer but honestly, truenames themselves are a well-established concept and their research has rules. That's really all that's needed. That said, it might be too much to ask for and that's why I included the proviso to also allow a description to summon, and then you can't be sure what you get or if the spell works right (I think the very idea that you just pick a creature and summon a creature of that type is way too easy and reliable for a binding spell).

The idea was tho, you're forced to call someone. That way it's not just Disposable Creature To Fulfill A Job, you're calling someone and then you're interacting with someone. This way you're forced to effectively create contacts with the creatures you bind and it's a more involved affair with your character.

It also makes Binding far more involved a process; I don't think a Wizard should be Binding a Pit Fiend each week. I think Binding should be a long and precise process where you determine what and why you want to Bind, then how to Bind it and then the actual act of Binding. In essence, the current system rewards casual binding for underlings, wishes, spellcasting services and whatever. Making it more involved makes it both, less abusable, and more rare. It should be dangerous to bind creatures.

Overall, I think the current Planar Binding:
- Is too reliable
- Steps outside the boundaries of the spell
- Enables too easy access to monster abilities

These, I find, are simply by-products of the spell not having enough uncertainty and having too much power behind it. If it calls a creature of the chosen type instead of a normal creature of the chosen type, for instance, you're immediately left with the risk of calling something much more powerful than what you intended unless you call a specific creature.

Not to mention, you might call a creature in possession of some powerful items or a creature with defensive buffs on or such which makes it much more dangerous, as calling creatures should be.

If you actually had to persuade/force the called creature to serve you instead of just casting Moment of Prescience for +20 to the opposed Charisma-check, the point about all the offerings in exchange for assistance and such would actually be useful. Not to mention, things like mundane Diplomacy, Intimidate and spells to those effects would actually be useful since the spell doesn't do that work for you.

I also feel the HD limits are stupid. This bizarrely is a buff to the lower level spells since when you call a creature with HD near the limit, you don't risk getting an advanced version of that creature, or one with class levels, or such.

Simply change what the spells call and the methods of acquiring services and you actually have the diabolical binders selling their souls for services or dying as the fiend escapes. The spell as written really minimizes the risks and investment such an undertaking should have.

Psyren

2014-01-09, 05:53 PM

There are spells for controlling a creature. Why would Binding circle even do that? It doesn't even make sense. The spell calls a creature. Inwards-turned Magic Circle blocks the creature. What exactly is compelling it? Why should the player be exempted from the Diplomacy/Charming/etc.? Hell, I posit the whole encounter the spell creates would be much more engaging without the ability to make a Charisma-check. Make a Diplomacy check.

Er... that would be even worse. Skill checks are much, much, much easier to optimize than ability checks; Masterwork tool, competence item, Guidance of the Avatar etc. At least in Pathfinder they are capped at a +2 adjustment, but you can still resort to something different like Bluff once they're willing to hear you out.

The change instantly makes the spell not broken (no way to compel the creatures to grant Wishes for instance), and removes the easy PC access to free Wishes (which we can all agree should not exist).

I agree that free wishes should not exist.

Where I disagree is in believing that an efreet's wishes are "free."
Even if you pay nothing up front, that feels much more like a deferral than a waiver to me.

Also, far as I can think, most instance of binding creatures in fantasy involve specifically calling for some particular creature. D&D literature, for instance, doesn't include a single case of someone Planar Binding a generic demon but rather a specific creature you've got history with.

Can you point me to some examples of where calling a generic creature is the goal of the binder (of course, calling for specific creature can be botched which results in you getting someone else; that's not going anywhere - finding the wrong truename, some high power interceding and sending a different creature instead, )?

I would consider OotS to be D&D literature, and there is generic binding all over the place in that. Redcloak's resistance-smashing army were non-specific fiendish shock troops, plus Z and Durkula's allies, Dorukan's angel squad in SoD etc.

Then there's other games. Elder Scrolls doesn't assign names and backstories to every Daedra or Atronach your spells bring out. The higher-level espers in Final Fantasy are specific individuals, but the lower ones are implied to be parts of a greater whole - footsoldiers.

Raimun

2014-01-09, 06:06 PM

Efreeti are freakin' Evil and don't like to grant Wishes for others. Especially for those that bested them.

Even if the evil genie has no choice, I wouldn't be surprised if a Wish-spell by Efreet would go horribly wrong.

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 06:22 PM

Er... that would be even worse. Skill checks are much, much, much easier to optimize than ability checks; Masterwork tool, competence item, Guidance of the Avatar etc. At least in Pathfinder they are capped at a +2 adjustment, but you can still resort to something different like Bluff once they're willing to hear you out.

Yeah, but that's a different system to fix. Skill boosting, bluff and diplomacy as written are all broken but you have to fix them anyways if you wanna play a game incorporating social skills. I have a hard time believing there wouldn't be houserules in place to make them work in basically every table.

Besides, this change doesn't enable their use. You can already use them just the same you can walk around the world Diplomancying everybody. As it stands tho, you aren't forced to. No matter how inept the Wizard is at mind control/talking/manipulation, a single spell and he auto-gets service from an outside.

I agree that free wishes should not exist.

Where I disagree is in believing that an efreet's wishes are "free."
Even if you pay nothing up front, that feels much more like a deferral than a waiver to me.

You can easily reach a power level where you don't care about any number of Efreetis' reprisal tho. Or you can just imprison/annihilate every Efreet you use. The others have no way of knowing who you are. They're just tools of trade with little power after all.

IMHO you simply shouldn't be able to get Wishes through Gate/Planar Binding/Shapechange/etc. It's simply too powerful an ability to be able to get someone else to cast for you. Personal Wish is fine, usually; it comes at a massive cost. Having Wishes through your abilities tho, I think, is too much.

I would consider OotS to be D&D literature, and there is generic binding all over the place in that. Redcloak's resistance-smashing army were non-specific fiendish shock troops, plus Z and Durkula's allies, Dorukan's angel squad in SoD etc.

Then there's other games. Elder Scrolls doesn't assign names and backstories to every Daedra or Atronach your spells bring out. The higher-level espers in Final Fantasy are specific individuals, but the lower ones are implied to be parts of a greater whole - footsoldiers.

The OotS examples could, in a game, be applications of Gate to open an interplanar portal. Z and Durkula, didn't they Summon those creatures? Hell, Durkon/Redcloak shouldn't even be capable of casting Planar Binding - it's an arcane spell.

I mean, opening Gate somewhere and having random fiends walk through is one thing. I think Planar Binding should be more targeted tho. I'll give you, requiring Truename is probably too much. Requiring it for reliable binding would be fine in my books tho. Non-precise binding by description (rather than class/type) would make it much more interesting in my books tho; a little subgame for picking what exactly you want and less reliability in what you get.

Psyren

2014-01-09, 07:37 PM

You can easily reach a power level where you don't care about any number of Efreetis' reprisal tho.

Not likely at level 8, unless you're using so much cheese that the game ceases to have meaning anyway.

Or you can just imprison/annihilate every Efreet you use. The others have no way of knowing who you are.

Divinations are a thing.

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 07:50 PM

Not likely at level 8, unless you're using so much cheese that the game ceases to have meaning anyway.

Well, at the point where you're Binding for Wishes, isn't that exactly what you're doing? That's kinda why I'd want to remove it from the game in the first place; they're by far the earliest and easiest way to break the game wide open.

I mean, Efreeti can grant Wishes just fine the same Pazuzu does without the compulsion - that part is not going anywhere. Just compelling them, particularly to do it by the letter, is the part I have trouble with; without any sort of a compulsion, Wishing isn't safe. There's the traditional fairy tale Wish Foiling aspect to it if you're just being granted a Wish, which I personally think belongs.

Divinations are a thing.

Aye, but Efreeti don't have an easy access to them, certainly not in the quantity that enables easy recognition of the binder. Still, yeah, reprisal is always a thing in Planar Binding, which is another reason I like the "bind something specific"-angle - this way, you effectively need to pick the outsiders you're willing to piss off as you scan for possible victims.

nedz

2014-01-09, 08:02 PM

Aye, but Efreeti don't have an easy access to them, certainly not in the quantity that enables easy recognition of the binder. Still, yeah, reprisal is always a thing in Planar Binding, which is another reason I like the "bind something specific"-angle - this way, you effectively need to pick the outsiders you're willing to piss off as you scan for possible victims.

Erm, they have Wish — they just need to phone a friend.

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 08:05 PM

Erm, they have Wish — they just need to phone a friend.

They need non-genie friends for that; not the kind of company they usually keep at least by the book (turns out getting a Wish granted effectively for yourself by someone else is quite hard when they could just be wishing for their own sake - a problem lots of fairy tale genies struggle with). But yes, as I said, not easily. Certainly there are ways to do it.

JaronK

2014-01-09, 08:08 PM

For what it's worth, as part of a set of house rules I gave Efreet a Wealth power instead of Wish. It allows them to create conjured wealth up to 25000gp in value per day, entirely in valuable trade materials such as gold and silver. However, it's Permanent duration, so the stuff can be dispelled and can't be used as material components.

Now, the rest of the house rules included that cold iron would quickly degrade permanent conjured effects (and no conjuration effect was instantaneous if it made something for a long time, they were all permanent), and such wealth was basically a form of counterfeit, so any serious merchant would be able to easily test if it was real goods or not (Detect Magic also worked). This meant wishes from Efreet would give you the illusion of wealth, but unless you combined it with some serious forgery or con artistry work you'd have a lot of trouble getting anything good for that wealth. And doing that would be an adventure of its own.

JaronK

nedz

2014-01-09, 08:13 PM

They need non-genie friends for that; not the kind of company they usually keep at least by the book (turns out getting a Wish granted effectively for yourself by someone else is quite hard when they could just be wishing for their own sake - a problem lots of fairy tale genies struggle with). But yes, as I said, not easily. Certainly there are ways to do it.

They could hire someone easily enough. Payment: 1 wish a month say.

Grek

2014-01-09, 08:17 PM

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 08:36 PM

I think people are getting too caught up on the topic of planar binding. Here's the real problem:

A 9th level Cleric can cast Plane Shift to take himself and three of his friends to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Once there, they can walk around doing the "Your wishes or your life!" routine on passing efreet, where the cleric makes a wish and if it doesn't come true, the efreeti gets a mace through its skull.

I can think of about a hundred reasons why that's a bad idea. Just a few:
- There are also plenty of powerful creatures on that plane that might not look kindly at you. Who's to say you initially find Efreeti on the elemental plane of fire in the first place?
- Not all Efreeti are 10 HD. How do you know you are even capable of taking the creature on?
- Efreeti have Plane Shift at will with no focus so you're not catching 'em unless they want you to.
- If it all somehow goes right and you do get a wish, whichever Efreet granted can freely pervert it, probably to your demise.

Planar Binding isolates you an Efreet instead of forcing you to fight a band of 16 Efreeti or a Fire Monolith or whatever. It also guarantees it's basically a stock Efreet since you can't call much else with that spell, instead of 20 HD Efreet Sorcerer or whatever. It also makes the Efreet quite incapable of harming you.

With Dimensional Anchor it also prevents it from just Plane Shifting away. And it compels obedience so you can actually get an unperverted Wish or three. Without Planar Binding, trying to force Efreeti to grant wishes to you on that level without substantial optimization is a fool's errand.

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 09:07 PM

For all those arguing about planar binding, it's not just this,

I think people are getting too caught up on the topic of planar binding. Here's the real problem:

A 9th level Cleric can cast Plane Shift to take himself and three of his friends to the Elemental Plane of Fire. Once there, they can walk around doing the "Your wishes or your life!" routine on passing efreet, where the cleric makes a wish and if it doesn't come true, the efreeti gets a mace through its skull.

it's that an even lower level party can just happen to be in a campaign set in the City of Brass and do this. You don't need to use special spells to find and compel an Efreeti, it's a CR 8 monster. It's normal. It's common (in the right environment, anyway). It's supposed to be something a level 8 party can interact with without the plot blowing up. If it were supposed to be special, it would have had a higher CR.

Efreeti are freakin' Evil and don't like to grant Wishes for others. Especially for those that bested them.

Even if the evil genie has no choice, I wouldn't be surprised if a Wish-spell by Efreet would go horribly wrong.

Besting a genie and getting wishes from it is the standard mythological way of getting wishes from genies, and a wish gone horribly wrong, as mentioned, is still more power than the players should have access to, even if that power is just screwing them over.

I mean, Efreeti can grant Wishes just fine the same Pazuzu does without the compulsion - that part is not going anywhere. Just compelling them, particularly to do it by the letter, is the part I have trouble with; without any sort of a compulsion, Wishing isn't safe. There's the traditional fairy tale Wish Foiling aspect to it if you're just being granted a Wish, which I personally think belongs.

An Efreeti shouldn't be able to screw you over with the power of a Wish either, though. They are still CR 8, after all. For example, let's say that you are trapped on the elemental plane of fire, and make a wish to "cool down and go home", so the Efreeti uses one Wish for Transport Travelers to send you home, and another for Fimbulwinter to cool you down. As a consequence for losing a CR 8 encounter (due to stupidity, sure) you've now killed everyone you care about. That's the sort of thing you should risk when pissing off a CR 15 BBEG, not a minor CR 8 outsider.

For what it's worth, as part of a set of house rules I gave Efreet a Wealth power instead of Wish. It allows them to create conjured wealth up to 25000gp in value per day, entirely in valuable trade materials such as gold and silver. However, it's Permanent duration, so the stuff can be dispelled and can't be used as material components.

Now, the rest of the house rules included that cold iron would quickly degrade permanent conjured effects (and no conjuration effect was instantaneous if it made something for a long time, they were all permanent), and such wealth was basically a form of counterfeit, so any serious merchant would be able to easily test if it was real goods or not (Detect Magic also worked). This meant wishes from Efreet would give you the illusion of wealth, but unless you combined it with some serious forgery or con artistry work you'd have a lot of trouble getting anything good for that wealth. And doing that would be an adventure of its own.

JaronK

I might use some aspects of this for the more permanent wealth creation aspect. That said, rather than pegging it to 25k gp I'd probably try to balance it with the sorts of encounters that would be needed to pass off the wealth.

As for those arguing that you can use it as a plot device, you're missing the point. Everything is a plot device. I (perhaps unlike some optimizers) assume that encounters happen because the DM thinks they'll make a good story. The players aren't going to run off and hunt down something for personal gain unless that's what the story is about, because they've bought in to the ongoing story as much as the DM has. The point of balance and a functioning CR system and the like isn't to keep players from doing things the DM doesn't want them to, it's to keep the abilities of players and the DM on a reasonable footing so that everyone feels empowered and challenged no matter where the story goes. The players should not be told by the game that 3 wishes is their due for an EL 8 encounter, and the DM should not be told by the game that "Fimbulwinter on your hometown" or "the Efreeti has a friend using its Wishes to destroy you" are appropriate challenges for an 8th level party.

Rhynn

2014-01-09, 09:14 PM

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 09:17 PM

The thread title is a bit misleading and seems to affect the discussion unduly: noble djinn are just as bad, and have the same HD, but lack the whole "Lawful Evil meanie blah blah" baggage.

So no solution can rely on the nature of efreet, really.

I mean, sure. Ideally, I'd like to fix all monsters that have CR 16 and lower and gives access to Wish (maybe some of the CR 16 ones are ok). Efreet are just the most well-known.

And sure, to give another example, "convince the Noble Djinn that you are deserving of Wishes as aid" is a totally reasonable mid-level encounter. It shouldn't grant you a 9th level spell, it should be at best only a bit more useful than "convince the local mid-level Cleric that you are deserving of spellcasting as aid".

nedz

2014-01-09, 09:19 PM

So the basic problem is CR8 and Wish.

The obvious solutions are

Increase the CR
Remove the Wish
Don't use this monster at EL 8

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 09:29 PM

it's that an even lower level party can just happen to be in a campaign set in the City of Brass and do this. You don't need to use special spells to find and compel an Efreeti, it's a CR 8 monster. It's normal. It's common (in the right environment, anyway). It's supposed to be something a level 8 party can interact with without the plot blowing up. If it were supposed to be special, it would have had a higher CR.

Besting a genie and getting wishes from it is the standard mythological way of getting wishes from genies, and a wish gone horribly wrong, as mentioned, is still more power than the players should have access to, even if that power is just screwing them over.

An Efreeti shouldn't be able to screw you over with the power of a Wish either, though. They are still CR 8, after all. For example, let's say that you are trapped on the elemental plane of fire, and make a wish to "cool down and go home", so the Efreeti uses one Wish for Transport Travelers to send you home, and another for Fimbulwinter to cool you down. As a consequence for losing a CR 8 encounter (due to stupidity, sure) you've now killed everyone you care about. That's the sort of thing you should risk when pissing off a CR 15 BBEG, not a minor CR 8 outsider.

I'm not sure about this; I mean, you can interact with it without asking for Wish. I don't think Wishing should be a part of the standard interaction with an Efreet. They're powerful outsiders with very useful Planeshifting abilities, some minor magic, knowledge and so on. That's all part of standard interaction with them.

I think the second the PCs tap into their Wish-power, the gloves should come off and the PCs should be at great peril regardless of CR. They're effectively tampering with level 9 magic on a much lower level so it should come at the cost of not being reliable. Wishing for something from another entity should always be very perilous and more likely to fail than to succeed; that makes it all the more special when it does succeed. I also don't like "You need to be this tall to ride"-aspects - I think they players should be free to **** themselves over whenever they want to and if they choose to resort to Wishing at an efreet, they should be at equal danger compared to the power they're using.

I don't think Efreeti should really be a minor outsider, either. The reason they're CR 8 is because they can't use their greatest power in combat. As a combat encounter, CR 8 isn't too far off. They just have a different level of danger (and potential, too; it's not just a great risk, it's also a great payoff). As creatures, they present horrifying power. I'd say it's okay for there to be a huge discrepancy between their power and their combat power - that's just something players need to keep in mind while interacting with them particularly in a peaceful fashion.

Urpriest

2014-01-09, 09:49 PM

I'm not sure about this; I mean, you can interact with it without asking for Wish. I don't think Wishing should be a part of the standard interaction with an Efreet. They're powerful outsiders with very useful Planeshifting abilities, some minor magic, knowledge and so on. That's all part of standard interaction with them.

I think the second the PCs tap into their Wish-power, the gloves should come off and the PCs should be at great peril regardless of CR. They're effectively tampering with level 9 magic on a much lower level so it should come at the cost of not being reliable. Wishing for something from another entity should always be very perilous and more likely to fail than to succeed; that makes it all the more special when it does succeed. I also don't like "You need to be this tall to ride"-aspects - I think they players should be free to **** themselves over whenever they want to and if they choose to resort to Wishing at an efreet, they should be at equal danger compared to the power they're using.

I don't think Efreeti should really be a minor outsider, either. The reason they're CR 8 is because they can't use their greatest power in combat. As a combat encounter, CR 8 isn't too far off. They just have a different level of danger (and potential, too; it's not just a great risk, it's also a great payoff). As creatures, they present horrifying power. I'd say it's okay for there to be a huge discrepancy between their power and their combat power - that's just something players need to keep in mind while interacting with them particularly in a peaceful fashion.

Not being reliable isn't actually a cost, though. That's the whole reason why we can't just go back to 2e spells and call it a day: a spell that screws you over half the time and breaks the game half the time still breaks the game at least half the time, and might even break the game the rest of the time if it screws you over too badly. (See earlier mention of Fimbulwinter: remember, that's not just screwing over the PC, it's screwing over a lot of innocent people who normally would have nothing to fear from a CR 8 monster on another plane.)

Plus, again, this is assuming that the story makes it artificially difficult to get good results out of the Efreeti. What if it doesn't? What if you run into an Efreet Paladin (remember the Succubus Paladin?), or a Noble Djinn, and convince it to aid you?

Drachasor

2014-01-09, 09:53 PM

jedipotter

2014-01-09, 10:37 PM

I got a fix! Just fix Wish!

Step One: Delete all the current text of the spell wish.

Step Two: Replace the text with: A Wish is a very potent but difficult spell. It will fulfill literally, but only partially or for a limited duration, the utterance of the spell caster. Thus, the actuality of the past, present or future might be altered (but possibly only for the magic-user unless the warding of the Limited Wish is most carefully stated) in some limited manner. The use of a Limited Wish will not substantially change major realities, nor will it bring wealth or experience merely by asking. It can reduce opponent hit probabilities or damage, it can increase duration of some magical effect, it can cause a creature to be favorably disposed to the spell caster, and so on. The Wish can possibly give a minor clue to some treasure or magic item. Greedy desires will usually end in disaster for the wisher. Regardless of what is wished for, the exact terminology of the Wish spell is likely to be carried through.

Step Three: Enjoy

Wonder where that paragraph comes from. It's the 2E version of wish. You will notice the description is vague and avoids any and all metrics and game terms.

See one of the big problems with 3E was the designers tried to 'help' by setting what they thought would be good limits for things. So, as you see, in 2E a wish could kinda sort do anything...maybe. But what the wish did was left up to the poor DM to make the call. And, as always, there were some DM's that were confused and helpless (Oh and don't forget the poor, young, new gamer DM who after playing the game for all of ten minutes ever in their life might have to some how adjudicate granting a wish ). So the 3E designers thought they would help by giving wish strict limits and metrics. But when you set limits, you just make more problems. It is the classic government problem. If you can have any amount of money, up to $500 a day, how much would you take a day. $5? $10? $25? Or would you take...say...$500? Though one.....

So Fix Wish to the 2E version, and everything is fine.

Eldariel

2014-01-09, 10:56 PM

I don't know why people ignore this, but Planar Binding explicitly states "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to." It is completely up to the DM whether free wishes are an unreasonable command. Certainly the market price of a wish suggests this would indeed be entirely unreasonable -- and just because the Efreeti can provide wishes without personal cost doesn't mean the market price of that service is free. In fact, providing free wishes is against its own interests, since that just encourages people to summon it again and again and again in the future.

So I find the idea that this is an entirely RAW way to gain free wishes extremely dubious.

This is entirely side-stepping the issue of the Efreeti twisting the wish.

Because it's an extremely difficult position to reasonably argue that a request for a creature to use one of its inherent abilities that has no real personal cost to it is an unreasonable request. Sure, a DM could do that but it doesn't seem to be in line with the intent of the ability. It's not like the creature is asked to endanger itself in any way, or do something it's incapable of doing.

Not being reliable isn't actually a cost, though. That's the whole reason why we can't just go back to 2e spells and call it a day: a spell that screws you over half the time and breaks the game half the time still breaks the game at least half the time, and might even break the game the rest of the time if it screws you over too badly. (See earlier mention of Fimbulwinter: remember, that's not just screwing over the PC, it's screwing over a lot of innocent people who normally would have nothing to fear from a CR 8 monster on another plane.)

Plus, again, this is assuming that the story makes it artificially difficult to get good results out of the Efreeti. What if it doesn't? What if you run into an Efreet Paladin (remember the Succubus Paladin?), or a Noble Djinn, and convince it to aid you?

Well, if it breaks the game half the time and the characters the other half, the characters probably aren't stupid enough to try unless in extremely dire straits. Also, a single Wish doesn't necessarily break the game - as long as DM doesn't actually allow a limitless value of magic items to be produced, you get some massive boon like a 25k item or a single casting of some high level spell (Polymorph Any Object is probably the most useful in the long term?), but no more than that. Wishes really begin to get ridiculous when used in numbers and towards certain goals.

Honestly, the 2ed paradigm worked fairly well, simply because the potentially massive costs greatly disincentivized using those spells except in dire straits. It meant in practice those spells were soft-banned (since characters didn't want to repeatedly risk their life) but the daring individuals were certainly free to use them, at the expense of a short lifespan. They were part of the game world without being spammed every encounter. Stable power tends to mean more than potential power, so while the individuals with the dangerous abilities are potentially very powerful, at least intra-party balance wise since most encounters will be solved without them, and as such the characters who have the most practical power get to shine.

All that said, I agree that Noble Djinni (or yes, Efreeti with Helm of Opposite Alignment + botched Will-save) are more likely to be a problem - the capture clause in particular. It doesn't really go into detail on what kinds of Wishes it'll actually agree to grant so the chances of getting any too reality-warping Wishes, at least for personal power, might not be a given.

That said, Chaotic Good doesn't mean it agrees with the PCs or wishes to assist them naturally. I mean, convincing a Noble Djinn to help you isn't all that different from convincing a Solar to help you; in either case you're meeting a good outsider and peacefully convincing them to provide you with the wishes, which should be the hard part (how can they trust a mortal to stay good/not fall over power/to not be masking their true nature in the first place or whatever?). So the power difference doesn't really matter; you aren't facing their abilities in any case.

Point being, if you can peacefully convince any outsiders, either good creatures or evil, to somehow assist you, you can probably get access to Wishes somehow. Hell, you might be able to convince some really powerful mortals to help you by the same token. I don't think, due to the open-endedness of such campaigns, that this is necessarily as big of a problem though. In principle though, Noble Djinni do probably aid you quite willingly in the event of a fairly common save-the-world campaign so in that sense I suppose they're definitely more problematic than Efreeti.

I got a fix! Just fix Wish!

Step One: Delete all the current text of the spell wish.

Step Two: Replace the text with: A Wish is a very potent but difficult spell. It will fulfill literally, but only partially or for a limited duration, the utterance of the spell caster. Thus, the actuality of the past, present or future might be altered (but possibly only for the magic-user unless the warding of the Limited Wish is most carefully stated) in some limited manner. The use of a Limited Wish will not substantially change major realities, nor will it bring wealth or experience merely by asking. It can reduce opponent hit probabilities or damage, it can increase duration of some magical effect, it can cause a creature to be favorably disposed to the spell caster, and so on. The Wish can possibly give a minor clue to some treasure or magic item. Greedy desires will usually end in disaster for the wisher. Regardless of what is wished for, the exact terminology of the Wish spell is likely to be carried through.

Step Three: Enjoy.

This is certainly one functional option. While at it, the changes I've mentioned for Planar Binding and Gate are too in line with the 2e versions - you can Conjure creatures but to control them, you need other magicks.

Drachasor

2014-01-09, 11:04 PM

Because it's an extremely difficult position to reasonably argue that a request for a creature to use one of its inherent abilities that has no real personal cost to it is an unreasonable request. Sure, a DM could do that but it doesn't seem to be in line with the intent of the ability. It's not like the creature is asked to endanger itself in any way, or do something it's incapable of doing

Since you capture it just to use that ability, I'd say there's a significant personal cost to having it. That cost increases if it actually gives in and uses it for free. No reason not to summon it again and again and again and again.

Also, do you use the same logic with Wizard and Cleric spells? Because RAW flatly contradicts your opinion here. RAW also places a market price on Wish.

So exactly where is the carefully thought out perspective that the Efreeti should be granting wishes for free here?

jedipotter

2014-01-09, 11:04 PM

This is certainly one functional option. While at it, the changes I've mentioned for Planar Binding and Gate are too in line with the 2e versions - you can Conjure creatures but to control them, you need other magicks.

Yes, my version of Gate is the 2E one: you can gate in whatever(but they get a save), but you get no control over it.

Pickford

2014-01-09, 11:11 PM

jedipotter

2014-01-09, 11:21 PM

How does someone who tries to planar bind an Efreeti get around that Efreeti (or their kin) seeking vengeance at a later time?

The 'others' would point out that as there is not an official rule that says something like ''Efreeti do not like to be summoned, called, commanded or made to grant wishes. Should this be done an ''Efrett War Band'' will seek vengeance.'' And as there is no official rule anything a DM might just like ''say or whatever'' is just wrong as does not happen as the rules don't say it happens.

So you'd need to stat out the ''Efrett War Band'' and the ''Vengeance Encounter'' just like MM V or 4E does. And make an official rule for it.

Emperor Tippy

2014-01-09, 11:46 PM

Defeat does not mean death or capture. It also covers things like forcing the creature to flee.

All Genie's have at will Plane Shift as a spell like ability. One standard action and they are on another plane.

Then you have the little issue of them being a major trading species (the City of Brass is one of the largest trading hubs in the Great Wheel) and are all geniuses.

They are also Evil. How many humans do you think are willing to sell their soul for a single Wish? And don't forget the change shape ability that Efreeti have.

A quick plane shift to the material plane, a quick Change Shape into human form, and then go and find some poor sap that is willing to make a deal.

"Here you go, just read out this document and I will give you ten thousand gold. What, you can't pronounce the words? Don't worry, here just repeat after me."

What do you know, the poor sap just promised the efreeti his soul when said poor sap dies in exchange for granting him the following three wishes. 1) That 10,000 GP appear before him. 2) That a Craft Contingent Wish appear on the Efreeti that is set to trigger upon the efreeti saying a specific word or being captured. 3) That the Efreeti gets a +1 inherent bonus to a specific ability score.

That it was done in Ignan is totally irrelevant. And what do you know, the individual also specifically stated that the efreeti gains his soul if the efreeti kills him.

It's full legal as far as the various extraplanar courts are concerned and the Efreeti made out quite nicely.

Now when that specific one is called up with something like Planar Binding his Contingent Wish triggers and dumps him back at his home. He then goes and uses another poor sap to Wish the person who tried to bind him into his dungeon for a few thousand years of torture.

Psyren

2014-01-10, 12:12 AM

Well, at the point where you're Binding for Wishes, isn't that exactly what you're doing?

A player doing it on a whim just to gain access to a 9th-level spell 9 levels early? Yeah, that's pretty cheesy (and therefore should be punished or banned.)

But a desperate player with no other options - say one whose dear friend drew the Void card from a Deck of Many Things, or who wants to restore an outsider/elemental companion to life, or one reincarnated into a hated form (e.g. a drow or hobgoblin) who will do anything to return to normal - such a player might very well pursue extreme measures to undo their affliction, including binding efreeti, and accept the likely consequences simply because they have neither the time nor means to gain 9 levels quickly.

Low-level wishes do have a place in the game - they need to be regulated appropriately, after the fact if necessary, but kneejerk banning them outright should be reserved for either the most abusive players or most unimaginative DMs.

Aye, but Efreeti don't have an easy access to them, certainly not in the quantity that enables easy recognition of the binder.

And why not? You want to tell me that in centuries of life and amassing treasure they have no means to track someone down who is abusing/mocking their clan? Even a normally immoral and uncaring race of creatures can be stirred to action if some uppity mortal is treating one of them like a fool; his actions would impugn the honor of many more besides the specific one he is binding, and doubly so if he is slitting their throats afterward.

Rhynn

2014-01-10, 12:23 AM

A player doing it on a whim just to gain access to a 9th-level spell 9 levels early? Yeah, that's pretty cheesy (and therefore should be punished or banned.)

Is there a specific reason you're assuming 8th level? Urpriest is talking about 8th-level parties because the efreeti's CR is 8, but he was talking about encountering and defeating it, not about planar binding it, originally. Planar binding is a 6th-level spell, so that's an 11th-level caster, generally. Still 6 levels early.

Yeah, that's pretty cheesy (and therefore should be punished or banned.)

Casting planar binding to summon and command an efreeti or djinni seems like a perfectly standard thing to do, and it seems obvious you'd do it to make them grant you wishes. How would you punish or ban that, as a DM, without appearing (or being) arbitrary or vindictive?

Or are you just talking about the whole "efreet don't exist independent of the rest of the setting" bit, where things have consequences? (We can't get very specific about those consequences without assuming a setting, though.)

Grek

2014-01-10, 12:34 AM

I can think of about a hundred reasons why that's a bad idea. Just a few:
- There are also plenty of powerful creatures on that plane that might not look kindly at you. Who's to say you initially find Efreeti on the elemental plane of fire in the first place?
- Not all Efreeti are 10 HD. How do you know you are even capable of taking the creature on?
- Efreeti have Plane Shift at will with no focus so you're not catching 'em unless they want you to.
- If it all somehow goes right and you do get a wish, whichever Efreet granted can freely pervert it, probably to your demise.

-You're an adventurer. You were already going to have powerful enemies. The fact that these powerful enemies happen to be efreet doesn't particularly disadvantage you.
-Same way any other brigand decides who they can take in a flight: They look at the mark and make a judgement call.
-Any Cleric with access to Plane Shift also has access to Dimensional Anchor.
-That's the beauty of the request: If the Efreet tries to screw you over on your wish, you stab it. The only response from the Efreet that doesn't involve you stabbing it is the one where it gives you what you want.

Eldariel

2014-01-10, 12:34 AM

How does someone who tries to planar bind an Efreeti get around that Efreeti (or their kin) seeking vengeance at a later time?

Genies can plane shift at will, so they could plane shift to the wizard when said wizard is asleep/trancing and then shift them to somewhere fatal for whatever race that wizard is.

Couldn't they?

Not quite. Plane Shift has a pretty huge area where you might end up so the chances of getting anywhere near the Wizard are pretty much nil. Efreet Plane Shift is also limited to Astral Plane, the Elemental Planes and the Material Plane so a caster anywhere else would be safe. Great for escaping, not so great for chasing.

A player doing it on a whim just to gain access to a 9th-level spell 9 levels early? Yeah, that's pretty cheesy (and therefore should be punished or banned.)

But a desperate player with no other options - say one whose dear friend drew the Void card from a Deck of Many Things, or who wants to restore an outsider/elemental companion to life, or one reincarnated into a hated form (e.g. a drow or hobgoblin) who will do anything to return to normal - such a player might very well pursue extreme measures to undo their affliction, including binding efreeti, and accept the likely consequences simply because they have neither the time nor means to gain 9 levels quickly.

Low-level wishes do have a place in the game - they need to be regulated appropriately, after the fact if necessary, but kneejerk banning them outright should be reserved for either the most abusive players or most unimaginative DMs.

And there's no need for Binding to compel action in that case. That's the kind of thing you beg/pray/fight for. Bind the Efreet and pay him a lot to get the Wish.

And why not? You want to tell me that in centuries of life and amassing treasure they have no means to track someone down who is abusing/mocking their clan? Even a normally immoral and uncaring race of creatures can be stirred to action if some uppity mortal is treating one of them like a fool; his actions would impugn the honor of many more besides the specific one he is binding, and doubly so if he is slitting their throats afterward.

I don't think Efreeti care too much about each others' honor. Depends on the individual you get, certainly. And yeah, some Efreeti probably have access to Divination but my point was it's not easily available to them through their native abilities (and I don't think Efreeti with many class levels are that common) so they need to outsource for that, so it isn't that big of an immediate danger.

Of course, if the Efreeti do things a Char Ops-minded world would have them do, such as acquire means to dominate person, and dominate some poor commoner to wish what they Wish for from them they're suddenly pretty much untouchable.

Psyren

2014-01-10, 12:36 AM

Casting planar binding to summon and command an efreeti or djinni seems like a perfectly standard thing to do, and it seems obvious you'd do it to make them grant you wishes. How would you punish or ban that, as a DM, without appearing (or being) arbitrary or vindictive?

"Arbitrary?" Did you read the MM?

"Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead." All right there on the page in black and white, setting-independent.

Trapping one will force it to bargain, but not to forget. Furthermore, all efreet activity is monitored by their Sultan and his maliks from the City of Brass. You cannot bind one, especially not repeatedly or slaughtering them each time, without attracting unwanted attention. Tippy has the right of it.

Scow2

2014-01-10, 12:41 AM

And the Sultan and his maliks are epic-level threats. (Or at least the Sultan is - Notvquite "Lady of Pain" strong, but still near-deific strength)

Gemini476

2014-01-10, 11:53 PM

And the Sultan and his maliks are epic-level threats. (Or at least the Sultan is - Notvquite "Lady of Pain" strong, but still near-deific strength)
"Lady of Pain" strong is quite like a description I read regarding battling Caine in the World of Darkness. The Storyteller hands you a card. One side reads "You lose." The other side, once you flip it, reads "You still lose."
Taken from the internet: "One V:tM rulebook has an entry on "Rules for Fighting Caine", which consists entirely of "You lose.""
That's Lady of Pain-strong.

A player doing it on a whim just to gain access to a 9th-level spell 9 levels early? Yeah, that's pretty cheesy (and therefore should be punished or banned.)

But a desperate player with no other options - say one whose dear friend drew the Void card from a Deck of Many Things, or who wants to restore an outsider/elemental companion to life, or one reincarnated into a hated form (e.g. a drow or hobgoblin) who will do anything to return to normal - such a player might very well pursue extreme measures to undo their affliction, including binding efreeti, and accept the likely consequences simply because they have neither the time nor means to gain 9 levels quickly.

Low-level wishes do have a place in the game - they need to be regulated appropriately, after the fact if necessary, but kneejerk banning them outright should be reserved for either the most abusive players or most unimaginative DMs.
If you are using a Deck of Many Things in a game, you honestly brought it upon yourself.
Speaking of which, that's another source of Wishes. It's also obscenely dangerous (much like non-standard wishes in general!), yet players will still draw from it.

The Deck of Many Things is actually a perfect example of why "50% breaks the game, 50% awful things happen" is not a good thing, come to think of it.