Thog, Z and Nale's whereabouts.

[Psyren]

Thog might not be dead, but Nale and Z certainly are. Where are they? Why hasn't Nale gone to see his fiendish ladylove yet? Are all three (or at least the latter two) in the afterlife yet?

The IFCC resides in Lee's domain (I think), which I took to mean Hell. Nale being LE, that's where he'd be headed. Hell is probably a big place, but what are the odds we'll get an afterlife scene with any of them?

Thog's survival was an open question, but now I'm leaning towards that he got squashed in the rubble - I'm not sure what point there'd be in having Thog survive on his own now that most of the LG is down for the count. He's not much use without Nale holding his leash.

[wyrmhole]

Nale's LE? He seems like a shoe-in for CE to me.

[Living Oxymoron]

Nale's LE? He seems like a shoe-in for CE to me.

Really? He is like a stereotypical LE to me.

[AKA_Bait]

Thog might not be dead, but Nale and Z certainly are. Where are they? Why hasn't Nale gone to see his fiendish ladylove yet? Are all three (or at least the latter two) in the afterlife yet?

They may still be getting processed. It took Roy a little while to get cleared.


The IFCC resides in Lee's domain (I think), which I took to mean Hell. Nale being LE, that's where he'd be headed. Hell is probably a big place, but what are the odds we'll get an afterlife scene with any of them?


Nale's LE? He seems like a shoe-in for CE to me.

I actually lean toward NE for Nale. I don't think he's LE. Sure, he says he's LE and probably thinks he's LE, but he really doesn't act like a lawful character.


Thog's survival was an open question, but now I'm leaning towards that he got squashed in the rubble - I'm not sure what point there'd be in having Thog survive on his own now that most of the LG is down for the count. He's not much use without Nale holding his leash.

I think Tarquin's reason for refusing to allow Nale to bring Thog with them to the pyramid (i.e., he's a "loose cannon," not "he's a pancake and we aren't spending the time/resources to dig him out and raise him right now") is pretty good evidence that he's alive. As for the point, it could be as simple as the Giant wanting to leave his options open.

[Gift Jeraff]

The less we see/learn of Z, the cooler he is.

Nale's LE? He seems like a shoe-in for CE to me.


Really? He is like a stereotypical LE to me.

He could be the poster child for NE, IMO.

[Ceaon]

As for the point, it could be as simple as the Giant wanting to leave his options open.

I think the Giant has planned the entire story out, so he doesn't really need to leave his options open.

I believe Thog's dead was left ambiguous so that the Order would be able to believe Thog was alive (so that Tarquin could pose as him), while simultaneously not needing an additional explanation of Thog's death later.

Of course, I could be very wrong.

[AKA_Bait]

I think the Giant has planned the entire story out, so he doesn't really need to leave his options open.

Plans can change. There was no narrative purpose to showing Thog as actually killed (unlike with Nale and Z). The Giant is good enough to avoid closing his options unnecessarily, even if he never plans to exercise any of those options right now.

[KillianHawkeye]

In my opinion, leaving Thog's fate in the arena ambiguous was simply a good way to keep up the status quo until the more shocking on-screen deaths which ocurred later. If Thog had been confirmed dead, it wouldn't be such a surprise when other members of the Linear Guild began dying off. It was simply much too early in the current story arc for things to get that serious.

[Ridureyu]

Can't you actually see the X's in Thog's eyes when he gets squashed? It's hard to spot, but you can see a couple of pixels that do not look like normal eyes.

Either way, Thog is out. Aside from all the pre-planning for this arc, the Giant had expressed puzzelement at how many fans Thog had despite his murderous behavior, and said that he didn't like writing the character and only kept him on because people liked the jokes. And then these sentiments got echoed really directly in the fight comics (including Thog killing one of his fans, albeit by accident). SO yeah, point taken.

[Psyren]

Nale's LE? He seems like a shoe-in for CE to me.

He says he is LE (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), and I didn't see anything since then to indicate his outlook/alignment changed.



I actually lean toward NE for Nale. I don't think he's LE. Sure, he says he's LE and probably thinks he's LE, but he really doesn't act like a lawful character.

Okay, I'll bite. What is it that makes him seem unlawful?



I think Tarquin's reason for refusing to allow Nale to bring Thog with them to the pyramid (i.e., he's a "loose cannon," not "he's a pancake and we aren't spending the time/resources to dig him out and raise him right now") is pretty good evidence that he's alive. As for the point, it could be as simple as the Giant wanting to leave his options open.

Perhaps, but with Nale perma-dead and nobody having any reason to raise Z, what point would there be in leaving Thog alive?


In my opinion, leaving Thog's fate in the arena ambiguous was simply a good way to keep up the status quo until the more shocking on-screen deaths which ocurred later. If Thog had been confirmed dead, it wouldn't be such a surprise when other members of the Linear Guild began dying off. It was simply much too early in the current story arc for things to get that serious.

This is exactly what I think. He died, but secretly, so that people wouldn't start putting the LG way up on the death pool. (Speaking of which, I wonder who was expecting Nale and Z to kick it one after the other in that thread?) :smallbiggrin:

[Heksefatter]

The Giant has clearly hinted that Nale might not be LE. In any case, he could:

1) Be undergoing an evaluation similar to the one Roy underwent and thus not be in any evil afterlife proper.

2) Even if LE (I have him tagged as NE, but I am not ruling out LE), he could be somewhere else. Not all LE people go into director Lee's inbox.

Personally, I hope we will see a bit interaction between afterlife-Nale and Sabine, though.

[Rostenoc]

Can't you actually see the X's in Thog's eyes when he gets squashed? It's hard to spot, but you can see a couple of pixels that do not look like normal eyes.

That's glass from the smashed potion bottle; compare to previous frames for the position in his face.

[Asta Kask]

He is the opposite of Elan. Elan is Chaotic Good. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Nale is Lawful Evil.

[CaDzilla]

He is the opposite of Elan. Elan is Chaotic Good. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Nale is Lawful Evil.

He just said that to fit into the whole evil opposites theme.

[Psyren]

The Giant has clearly hinted that Nale might not be LE.

Sauce?


Personally, I hope we will see a bit interaction between afterlife-Nale and Sabine, though.

Definitely agreed there!


He just said that to fit into the whole evil opposites theme.

It's still fitting, and furthermore Thog is almost certainly CE - Roy's opposite.

(It does break down at Sabine though.)

[AKA_Bait]

Okay, I'll bite. What is it that makes him seem unlawful?

It's more that other than his own say-so, I don't see anything that indicates he is lawful. The characters at the corners of the alignment box in the strip all tend to have specific alignmenty traits we are made aware of that are ingrained into the character. For the Lawful characters, this tends to be considering some specific set of rules to be important. Nale doesn't even follow his own evil-opposites rule proactively or all that closely.


Perhaps, but with Nale perma-dead and nobody having any reason to raise Z, what point would there be in leaving Thog alive?

There's still Sabine out there, as well as Tarquin (who, if Thog lives, would have custody of him). Thog could get back in the action if the Giant wanted to play it that way. He could also use him in a cut away for a quick one off gag or to torture his readers that like to predict how the comic is going to go.

[Keltest]

Sauce?



Definitely agreed there!



It's still fitting, and furthermore Thog is almost certainly CE - Roy's opposite.

(It does break down at Sabine though.)

Sabine is a Succubus. That means that she's (more or less) required to be of a specific alignment (I forget if its Chaotic or Lawful, and I think they even switched it at some point). Yes, I recognize that the giant has expressed distaste for the "must always be X alignment" but that doesn't mean every character is going to be a violation of that simply for the sake of it, especially without giving any indication of that in the hundreds of comics since their introduction.

[Jasdoif]

The Giant has clearly hinted that Nale might not be LE.Sauce?Here you go:

Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.

Interesting, that. Don't you think? :smallwink:

[Morquard]

Why hasn't Nale gone to see his fiendish ladylove yet?
You seem to think Hell is a place they just let you walk around all on your own. Sure the LG heaven did that. But it was heaven. For LG people, by LG creatures, created as their reward. And Roy couldn't actually go everywhere either, Horace had to come down from the mountain and not the other way around.
Hell on the other hand I suppose is a lot more... uncomfortable. The strong lord over the weak, and such things. And the weakest there might well be the new arrivals. So where is Nale? He's probably some higher level devil's b*tch right now.

Not to mention that the IFCC probably does not advertise their domain too well, so unless he knows where to go...

And thirdly, I don't think Nale even knows about the IFCC and Sabine's involvement with them, so wouldn't know to go there.

Will Sabine eventually go to pick him up? I think she'll try, but will the IFCC let her go to fetch a "now useless tool"? Remember that Sabine herself is a Demon, she might be fairly powerless in Hell. Also the Bloodwar is a reality here apparantly, so showing her Demon face in hell might be enough to get others to kill her.

[Ridureyu]

I don't see any way that Thog would be anything but Chaotic Evil.

Thog is chaotic - he is run not by any law or system or concept of honor, but instead by his whims at the moment.

Thog is evil - he kills everything but puppies. And maybe even puppies.

[BaronOfHell]

At first I read this thread's title as Thor, Z and Nale's whereabouts.

The way I see Thog work without the LG is the way he could work with Elan. By himself there doesn't seem to be much drive, but I imagine he can accompany some characters well.

Apart from that, I agree it's really difficult to see Thog by himself. On the other hand, if Thog didn't survive, what would his chances be to return? I'm not familiar with how it works, but V said he'd be able to come back a ghost, was that because V, like Nale and Z are spell casters?

One reason I suspect we might see more of Nale is because of the Giant quoted text in this thread, which makes me think that maybe Nale's alignment will be explored some more, also it's my impression there has been hints about upbringing vs. birth of Elan & Nale and their respective lives (and alignments) that followed, and it doesn't feel like it's reached it conclusion yet.

[Sunken Valley]

Seems like I'm famous around Nale alignment debates. I said that before Nale had his dream vision, killed Malack and got killed. All of which exposé him as NE

[Metahuman1]

Thog still alive could work. Wait, here me out.

It could work as a redemption story, maybe similar to Belkar's, except Elan is actively helping him at the moment.

Or, it could play into Belkar's in that Thog sorta becomes the example of what Belkar is/was like, that ends up helping to ultimately push him over the cusp and into Chaotic Neutral Territory.

[Sir_Leorik]

Regarding Zz'dtri, Word of Giant gives his Alignment as Neutral Evil. However, he's a Drow, so he may have gone to the Abyss, to the Realm of Lolth Lloth Lilith Diane Rebecca the Drow's heretofore unnamed goddess, where he'll be judged for how loyal he was to her in life. Given that Z's male, served a male Human, and didn't actually kill Vaarsuvius, he'd better hope all the fruit baskets he caused Tarquin to send to the Drow Matrons will earn Z some Brownie Points.

Nale's Alignment is tricky; while he gave it as Lawful Evil in DCF, he's displayed pretty Chaotic behavior, even there. For example he taunts Celia by claiming she'd been turned to stone for a thousand years, just for the "lulz". That's not exactly Lawful Evil behavior. His original plan for getting revenge on Elan would have entailed Thog getting killed in the process. And of course all of Nale's plans are needlessly complicated. Compare Nale's plans to Tarquin's clever "three card monte" scheme, where Team Tarquin swap the patsy rulers of the three Empires they rule every two years or so, while slowly expanding. It isn't a very complicated plan, but it does require timing and coordination.

So the question is: is Nale Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil? And did he become so under Sabine's influence, to cheese off his Lawful Evil father, or because he hung out too much with Thog?

:thog: thog bad influence on nale.

Speaking of Thog, as much as I like the goofball, I think that it would be better if he had been killed by falling masonry in the arena. Roy's Bond one-liner ("Stop talking." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)) is a great one, and this should really be Roy and Thog's final confrontation.

[TheBST]

It's more that other than his own say-so, I don't see anything that indicates he is lawful [...] For the Lawful characters, this tends to be considering some specific set of rules to be important. Nale doesn't even follow his own evil-opposites rule proactively or all that closely.



You seem to think Hell is a place they just let you walk around all on your own. Sure the LG heaven did that. But it was heaven.

You know, with these in mind, as well as The Giant teasing about Nale's alignment, a thought occurs: had Nale been acting more chaotic on purpose?

Wild speculation ahoy:

Sabine's CE after all, and- sick as their relationship is- it's been hammered home that those two genuinely love each other.

Since Sabine's metaphysically incapable of being Lawful, is it possible that Nale was actively trying to be more chaotic so they'd at least be put in the same section of the Evil afterlife: a completely twisted version of the idea of converting for love?


As for Thog, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) Tarquin refers to Thog in the present tense as if he's still alive. So, Thog stays locked up, and let's face it after all his murdering he should be. But at least Thog fans can say he's alive and doing something he loves. Everybody wins.

[BaronOfHell]

Is it 3 times we've seen "Stop talking" or similar so far?

One time where Miko kicks Roy in the face in an attempt to escape right after executing Lord S.

Second time where Roy kicks Thog.

Third time where Tarquin pulls the rug underneath Julio.

[marq]

...the Giant had expressed puzzelement at how many fans Thog had despite his murderous behavior, and said that he didn't like writing the character and only kept him on because people liked the jokes...

Not to derail anything, but...

Really?? Thog is easily the funniest character he wrote, I'm shocked he didn't expect people to love him.

[Gift Jeraff]

Is it 3 times we've seen "Stop talking" or similar so far?

One time where Miko kicks Roy in the face in an attempt to escape right after executing Lord S.

Second time where Roy kicks Thog.

Third time where Tarquin pulls the rug underneath Julio.

Thog said it to Roy when he tried to surrender in the arena.

[Ridureyu]

Not to derail anything, but...

Really?? Thog is easily the funniest character he wrote, I'm shocked he didn't expect people to love him.

Understand, a lot of people were arguing that Thog was not evil at all.

[marq]

Understand, a lot of people were arguing that Thog was not evil at all.

Yeah, I can see that. But I'm shocked that "he didn't like writing the character and only kept him in because people liked his jokes."

I'm surprised to hear that he didn't like writing the character. I'm surprised he kept him in just because forum users like him.

And I'm most surprised he was puzzled over how popular the character was.

[zimmerwald1915]

Why hasn't Nale gone to see his fiendish ladylove yet?
Because showing him doing that would break the pacing of the last few scenes. Now that Tarquin's firmly over the side of the Mechane, there is an opportunity to show what's going on with Sabine.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm surprised he kept him in just because forum users like him.

I'm pretty sure that's the only one Rich ever actually said (in Book 1's commentary). The rest of that post might be..."performance art."

[Ridureyu]

No, I remember Rich saying it roughly around the time that the arena fight happened (or a little before). It's been a few years, though.

[Gift Jeraff]

No, I remember Rich saying it roughly around the time that the arena fight happened (or a little before). It's been a few years, though.

Considering this board's tendency to archive everything he says, I'd think such a post would get frequently linked to in Thog discussions if it actually existed.

[Sir_Leorik]

Understand, a lot of people were arguing that Thog was not evil at all.


Yeah, I can see that. But I'm shocked that "he didn't like writing the character and only kept him in because people liked his jokes."

I'm surprised to hear that he didn't like writing the character. I'm surprised he kept him in just because forum users like him.

And I'm most surprised he was puzzled over how popular the character was.

Regarding Thog, I think that I read in one of the Author Commentaries that Rich found writing him to be enjoyable. One of the problems with Thog is not how The Giant presents him (i.e. funny as Baator), but in the way some fans react to Thog. Thog is a Chaotic Evil Barbarian first, and a lovable goofball who likes puppies and ice cream second. If Thog were ever to be given a real puppy, odds are that he would not treat it better than the blacksmith he tortured (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). And his ice cream addiction is even worse: he gets on a sugar high and then becomes uncontrollable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html). So long as Nale and Sabine were plying him with ice cream, he could be kept from killing people. (Or at least killing people whose deaths weren't essential to Nale's plans.)

In terms of Thog returning, that depends on whether he's survived the collapse in the arena, and whether Sabine can break him out.

[jidasfire]

Personally, I am mainly convinced Thog is still alive for two reasons. First being that Thog was barely hurt when Roy dropped the building on him. Even if it pinned him under the mass of rubble, there's every chance he simply ate the damage and was either unconscious or simply pinned. Also, it's worth noting that Sir Scraggly was knocked unconscious near Thog. Giving him said dog would be a perfect sendoff for the character, allowing him to get what he's wanted all along and then never to see him again (since without Nale around, there's no reason for him to oppose the Order). Honestly, I think Thog and Scraggly walking off into the sunset would make a nice last page or penulimate page for this book. But maybe that's just me.

[cheesecake]

There is no reason for Thog to be alive now as everyone has said.

I wouldn't mind seeing a minicomic series of thog carting around the rotten bodies of Z and Nale trying to get them raised. That would be awesome!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The real question, I think, isn't whether Thog is alive, but rather if he will be returning to the story in any meaningful way. After all, it's not necessary to kill off a character to remove them from a story, and he could be kept alive to make it uncertain whether he is returning or not.

[Rakoa]

The real question, I think, isn't whether Thog is alive, but rather if he will be returning to the story in any meaningful way. After all, it's not necessary to kill off a character to remove them from a story, and he could be kept alive to make it uncertain whether he is returning or not.

Exactly so. The Giant has allowed Leeky, Pompey, and The Unnamed Cleric of Loki to all walk out of the story with their lives intact.

I don't know if Thog will get/has gotten the same grace. Time may tell.

[FujinAkari]

And I'm most surprised he was puzzled over how popular the character was.

He wasn't.

What was actually said (to the best of my recollection) was that he was astounded by the number of people who honestly argued that Thog wasn't evil.

[marq]

He wasn't.

What was actually said (to the best of my recollection) was that he was astounded by the number of people who honestly argued that Thog wasn't evil.

So what everyone is saying is that Ridureyu was lying/wrong?

Okay then.

[Ridureyu]

Orthat my memory might be off since it's been a few years. There's that possibility.

[cheesecake]

He wasn't.

What was actually said (to the best of my recollection) was that he was astounded by the number of people who honestly argued that Thog wasn't evil.

I loved Thog, but you have to be blind not see that he was evil.

[Ridureyu]

I loved Thog, but you have to be blind not see that he was evil.

You do know which forum you're on, right? The one where people argue that Tarquin is a loving father, Redcloak is morally justified, and Miko is a reasonable, sweet-natured person?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I loved Thog, but you have to be blind not see that he was evil.

If you're blind, I don't think you'd see anything.:smallcool:

[marq]

You do know which forum you're on, right? The one where people argue that Tarquin is a loving father, Redcloak is morally justified, and Miko is a reasonable, sweet-natured person?

Well, except for Miko, I think you could make those arguments. Doesn't necessarily mean you're right, but I think you could make them.

[Psyren]

Here you go:

I think the "interesting" comment had more to do with the fact that he would betray Sabine to get ahead than the commentary on his alignment. (Interesting because Sabine clearly loves him and, even being a literal incarnation of evil and sex, would be loathe to do the same.)

Betraying Sabine though does not make him non-Lawful. By that logic, no LE villain would be lawful despite all of them being capable of treachery; devils, efreet, rakshasa etc. Rather, he never gave his word to never turn against Sabine that we could see; perhaps she made such an oath to him, but I doubt the reverse.

...And now I really want that Linear Guild prequel book.

[Kish]

Thog's popularity with the fans is the only reason he survived the first Linear Guild encounter, when Rich was planning the Linear Guild's core to be Nale and Sabine and all the others to be replaced each time they were encountered: True, confirmed by book commentary.
Rich has said he doesn't like writing Thog: False, as far as I know.
People have argued that Thog is not evil: True.
People have argued that Redcloak is morally justified: True.
People have argued that Miko was sweet-natured: False, as far as I know.

[Ridureyu]

Kish, remember the Great Miko Wars? The "morally justified" threads got backed up with people calling her sweet and kind. I distinctly remember at least one poster talking about how there were tears in his eyes when Miko was set on fire, because "the thought of such a sweet and beautiful woman screaming in agony as her hair burns" (paraphrase from 7 years ago) was too much for him. And there was fan art of her all happy and peaceful and romantic, and... wow.

[ChristianSt]

Thog's popularity with the fans is the only reason he survived the first Linear Guild encounter, when Rich was planning the Linear Guild's core to be Nale and Sabine and all the others to be replaced each time they were encountered: True, confirmed by book commentary.

Can you point me to that? I have all books, but can't remember reading that.

[Gift Jeraff]

Can you point me to that? I have all books, but can't remember reading that.

Book 1, Round 3 commentary.

[Kish]

Pretty sure it's Dungeon Crawling Fools, but can't swear to it.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Z is going to make a deal with a Guardinal, an Eladrin, and an Aasimon; named Ecgtheow, Elgin, and Engelbert.

[ShinyRocks]

I just don't see the point of Thog being alive. At all. We're nearing the home stretch, Rich (I assume) wants to start streamlining, not adding complications.

Thog doesn't have the nous (or, I think, desire) to find his way to the Order without Nale guiding him. And Nale's very dead. As is Z. And I don't see Sabine gathering up Thog for some revenge attack on the Order; clearly her sights are set on Tarquin.

As for Tarquin's lose cannon comment, I don't think it necessarily indicates that Thog is alive, so much that Tarquin is smart and saying 'Oh yes, I got your friend killed, but I'm taking his place, so it's fine' isn't really the best way to build team coherence.

Finally, people have said very often that we haven't seen the Xs in his eyes, so he can't be dead. But 'they're not dead unless you see the body' is such a cliche, and Rich enjoys playing with that sort of thing and going against expectations, so I'd personally like it if the outcome was just 'of course he's dead, a roof fell on him'.

If Thog does come back (for more than single-panel joke), I'm sure Rich will do it justice. But personally, I'd be happier if he never did.

[oonker]

My guess: Thos is alive, and Sabine will bust him out. Then, they will make one last appearance, but that will interfere in a life-death battle for someone, possibily Elan.

And then, their interference will help Elan out, someway.

[The Giant]

Can't you actually see the X's in Thog's eyes when he gets squashed? It's hard to spot, but you can see a couple of pixels that do not look like normal eyes.

Either way, Thog is out. Aside from all the pre-planning for this arc, the Giant had expressed puzzelement at how many fans Thog had despite his murderous behavior, and said that he didn't like writing the character and only kept him on because people liked the jokes. And then these sentiments got echoed really directly in the fight comics (including Thog killing one of his fans, albeit by accident). SO yeah, point taken.


Yeah, I can see that. But I'm shocked that "he didn't like writing the character and only kept him in because people liked his jokes."

I'm surprised to hear that he didn't like writing the character. I'm surprised he kept him in just because forum users like him.

And I'm most surprised he was puzzled over how popular the character was.

The reason it's shocking is because I never said all of that.

I did say that I kept Thog around because he was popular, but keep in mind this was around strip #70, when I had been posting OOTS for less than six months. I had no concept at all of what would or would not be popular at that point; it was my first experience writing for an audience larger than the six players at my D&D table. It wasn't that I wanted him gone and decided to keep him begrudgingly due to reader pressure, so much as I was running a lot of ideas up the flagpole and everyone saluted that one, so I changed my plan gladly. But this was so early that I had not come up with the idea of the Gates or the Snarl yet; I hadn't even decided whether or not they would ever get out of the dungeon! There was no real plan beyond the next 10-15 strips anyway, so why not change it?

Because I love writing Thog. He's a comedy goldmine and can make any scene funnier just be being involved. I won't comment on whether or not he's dead right now, but rest assured that if he doesn't show up again in the main story, it won't be because I didn't like writing him. And you should totally expect him to keep showing up in the ancillary materials (like in the recent Haleo & Julelan story).

What I found odd was that people tried to claim that he was not Evil because he was lovable. I don't understand that. I've never understood the need of some people to rationalize that a character they like is somehow less Evil just because they like them. Thog is Evil; Thog is lovable. Those two facts do not need to be in opposition. I don't understand treating his lovability as overriding his Evilness, nor his Evilness overriding his lovability. Because he's a fictional character and it's not necessary that we pass a binding absolute judgment on how we feel about him. We can simultaneously appreciate his comedy in this corner of our brain while condemning his evil in that corner.

Apparently, though, that's not how some people see it, and that's what continues to baffle me. I don't see how one could appreciate fiction on any serious level if every character has to boil down to a single LOVE/HATE toggle switch.

(The Thog fan getting killed in the arena fight was just a poke at the people who seem to think that he's blameless for his actions just because he's dumb and funny—not some statement that I hated the character and didn't know why anyone liked him.)

[Ridureyu]

Thank you for the clarification! I'm sorry that I remembered it so badly.

[oonker]

Apparently, though, that's not how some people see it, and that's what continues to baffle me. I don't see how one could appreciate fiction on any serious level if every character has to boil down to a single LOVE/HATE toggle switch.

Especially considering the example of character (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) that we know that functions based on LOVE/HATE toggle switches :)

[DaggerPen]

I won't comment on whether or not he's dead right now

... you know, I was quite sure that Thog was dead, but the lack of confirmation at this point in the story has suddenly opened me up to doubt. :smalleek:

[Copperdragon]

Nale: NE afterlife. He is NE, not LE or CE. He claims to be L and tries to be it and uses a lot of Lawful methods (his plans) and might even think of himself as Lawful, but he is not, in all the things mentioned he is as chaotic as it can get. His plans are complicated, he only tries to be L because his father is and he must be better, he's easy to anger, he does not seem to have really solid mortals or a code of conduct beyond "Make it complicated!"
Curiously, the question if Nale is LE or NE is the same if Roy is LG or NG. They're very similar but while Roy maintains his L I doubt that Nale can, as he has much stronger chaotic tendencies that are also rooted much deeper in his character and his actions. When Roy barely makes it into L, I strongly doubt Nale is everyhing but N. Nale is not C, for the same reason he is not L: His lawful tendencies are simply too strong for that.

Thog: CE Afterlife or Tarquin's Dungeon. There's no question about his alignment, just the one of Tarquin dug him out alive or dead. If there is some orcish afterlife he probably would be very happy there, he's much more orc than human after all. But I go for CE (as he is a normal player race and Half-Orcish Pantheons do not exist).

Zz'dtri: Do we know his alignment? If no, he strikes me as LE or NE, but putting him in some drow-afterlife does also not seem far fetched. So I go for racial Drow-Afterlife (an evil one, if they are split up by gods/alignments as well).

[zimmerwald1915]

Zz'dtri: Do we know his alignment? If no, he strikes me as LE or NE, but putting him in some drow-afterlife does also not seem far fetched. So I go for racial Drow-Afterlife (an evil one, if they are split up by gods/alignments as well).
We do. He's Neutral Evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57)

[Copperdragon]

We do. He's Neutral Evil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15667889&postcount=57)

Good (and thank you). Then NE or Drow Afterlife.

[ryuplaneswalker]

What I found odd was that people tried to claim that he was not Evil because he was lovable. I don't understand that. I've never understood the need of some people to rationalize that a character they like is somehow less Evil just because they like them. Thog is Evil; Thog is lovable. Those two facts do not need to be in opposition. I don't understand treating his lovability as overriding his Evilness, nor his Evilness overriding his lovability. Because he's a fictional character and it's not necessary that we pass a binding absolute judgment on how we feel about him. We can simultaneously appreciate his comedy in this corner of our brain while condemning his evil in that corner.

My guess is a Mild form of Draco in Leather pants, they like him therefore they want him to be good. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DracoInLeatherPants)

[davidbofinger]

Thog is easily the funniest character he wrote, I'm shocked he didn't expect people to love him.

John Cleese was shocked that people liked Basil Fawlty. He said he thought it was because he wasn't in control, but I think it's mostly just that it's hard to hate someone who makes you laugh. See also the mercenary's ring tone in Moffatt's Jekyll.

[BeerMug Paladin]

My guess would be that people just don't want to believe a character they like is, at their core, a rotten person.

As I pointed out to a friend of mine once, there are a few different ways to 'like' a character. You can like them enough to want to have them as a friend (Roy). You can like them enough to want to read a story about them (Redcloak). And you can like them enough to want to write a story about them (Vaarsuvius). There could easily be other distinctions, but those are mine.

At the time I said this because I was under the impression that he considered all three of those to be the same thing, or 'liking' a character as having one, clear meaning. For me, those are very different sorts of questions. (I would never want V or Redcloak as a friend) Perhaps some people just generally merge all three into the same 'like'?

[Seto]

The Giant has clearly hinted that Nale might not be LE. In any case, he could:

1) Be undergoing an evaluation similar to the one Roy underwent and thus not be in any evil afterlife proper.

2) Even if LE (I have him tagged as NE, but I am not ruling out LE), he could be somewhere else. Not all LE people go into director Lee's inbox.

Personally, I hope we will see a bit interaction between afterlife-Nale and Sabine, though.

Wait, Lee is the Demon, right ? (He's the yellow one). The purple one is the Daemon, and the orange one is the Devil. In case you're wondering, I got this from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), and the fact that the soul splices are, like, poster boys for LE, NE and CE, and each has a color that links them to a Director, as shown here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)

[Kish]

Wait, Lee is the Demon, right ? (He's the yellow one). The purple one is the Daemon, and the orange one is the Devil. In case you're wondering, I got this from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), and the fact that the soul splices are, like, poster boys for LE, NE and CE, and each has a color that links them to a Director, as shown here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html)
You might want to discard those and look at the fiends' names instead.

(LEe is Lawful Evil, NEro is Neutral Evil, and CEdrik is Chaotic Evil. And yes, this is confirmed by Word of the Author.)

(And yes, that strip does say that a succubus demon is working under a devil. If you think that's wrong, reexamine the IFCC's mission statement.)

[zimmerwald1915]

(LEe is Lawful Evil, NEro is Neutral Evil, and CEdrik is Chaotic Evil. And yes, this is confirmed by Word of the Author.)
This information is also in the Don't Split the Party commentary.

[Seto]

Oh ? Ok. Thanks, I didn't know that ! (Small inconsistency then I guess)

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh ? Ok. Thanks, I didn't know that ! (Small inconsistency then I guess)
Don't feel bad. Lee is the yellow one.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Actually I think part of the reason people go so far to defend Evil beings they happen to like is because if they admit that they are Evil, and that they the reader do like them (said Evil character), it kind of means that aforementioned reader likes Evil.

[Jay R]

I believe Thog's dead was left ambiguous so that the Order would be able to believe Thog was alive (so that Tarquin could pose as him), while simultaneously not needing an additional explanation of Thog's death later.

Of course, I could be very wrong.

:thog:: THOG NOW SCHRÖDINGER's ORC!

[Loreweaver15]

:thog:: THOG NOW SCHRÖDINGER's ORC!

Glorious...

[David Argall]

One point in Thog's favor when calling him good is that he was a controllable evil, and not even that difficult. Elan manages it without much difficulty. So it is easy to blame Thog's handler for any evil even when it is clear Thog enjoys carrying out his evil orders.

[Ceaon]

:thog:: THOG NOW SCHRÖDINGER's ORC!

As I should have expected, someone on this forum can phrase whatever I meant in a more concise and witty manner. :smallwink:

[Sir_Leorik]

:thog:: THOG NOW SCHRÖDINGER's ORC!

:thog: "thog not speak in all caps, it make thog thirsty."

[137beth]

:thog: "thog not speak in all caps, it make thog thirsty."

STOP TALKING! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html)

[warrl]

Nale: NE afterlife. He is NE, not LE or CE. He claims to be L and tries to be it and uses a lot of Lawful methods (his plans)

A characteristic he inherited from his mother who is explicitly Chaotic Good.

Also, he forms these complex plans and then changes them on a whim - Chaotic behavior.


and might even think of himself as Lawful, but he is not, in all the things mentioned he is as chaotic as it can get. His plans are complicated, he only tries to be L because his father is and he must be better,

I don't think he even tries to be Lawful. I'm not at all convinced he actually believes he's Lawful. I think that, more likely, he merely claims to be Lawful in order to confuse and mislead.


he's easy to anger, he does not seem to have really solid morals or a code of conduct beyond "Make it complicated!"

For a while he had the "opposites" thing going, but he abandoned it - and seriously, that's a Law of Fives (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=law%20of%20fives) phenomenon. Any two objects can be seen to be similar enough to be comparable and then different enough to be "opposites", given sufficient effort and ingenuity on the part of the person looking for such similarities and differences.

I see nothing Lawful about Nale. And plenty of Chaotic.

[Bluepaw]

Apparently, though, that's not how some people see it, and that's what continues to baffle me. I don't see how one could appreciate fiction on any serious level if every character has to boil down to a single LOVE/HATE toggle switch.

No need to be baffled! There's a fairly straightforward theoretical explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) for this phenomenon...

[137beth]

No need to be baffled! There's a fairly straightforward theoretical explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html) for this phenomenon...

Does that mean Belkar's reading the comic:smalleek:

[Insane Jeenyus]

why would Belkar care to deo that? also, can his character read?

[Ruck]

Please don't bump threads this old.

Although as long as I'm here, I will say I find this 2014 post very entertaining:


:thog:: THOG NOW SCHRÖDINGER's ORC!

Given that in the Good Deeds Gone Unpunished preface, Thog refers to himself as "schrödinger’s antagonist."

[Morquard]

[QUOTE=AKA_Bait;16757570
I think Tarquin's reason for refusing to allow Nale to bring Thog with them to the pyramid (i.e., he's a "loose cannon," not "he's a pancake and we aren't spending the time/resources to dig him out and raise him right now") is pretty good evidence that he's alive. [/QUOTE]

I disagree. If he'd said "We can't take him because he's dead" then an easy answr would have been "Well you got Malak here, have him rezz him, problem solved". He didn't want to give Nale that opening.

[Insane Jeenyus]

sorry fpr the thread necro. I have been in hospital almost all of the last 3 weeks and simply missed that important detail.

its just that I miss thog. I like him! as for Z, wasn't there an arrest for copyright infringements .. .. .. .. ..?

[Caerulea]

its just that I miss thog. I like him! as for Z, wasn't there an arrest for copyright infringements .. .. .. .. ..?
Parody is protected speech.http://i.imgur.com/yjOlkog.png

[Insane Jeenyus]

Parody is protected speech.http://i.imgur.com/yjOlkog.png
ah, so no chance for a side joke trial led by a kangaroo for a judge.

[Ruck]

Especially not now that he's dead.

[Caerulea]

Like this thread.

—Caerulea

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder:

This thread is dead as adored-Nale!