Fair LA for a Wolf? (or a wolf with listed LA?)

[qwertyu63]

I am building Chibiterasu (from Okamiden) as a character. I am planning on building them as a Celestial Wolf with a homebrew template to represent the whole "god" part. Sadly, there is no listed LA for the wolf, so I can't do this easily.

So, I have two questions:

Is there any version of the wolf with a listed LA?
What would a fair LA be for the wolf in the SRD?

Thank you in advance.

[ksbsnowowl]

The example Telthor in Unapproachable East is a Telthor Wolf. The stat block has a listed LA. Backing out the listed LA of the template itself, the Wolf's template can be determined. IIRC, it is +2, but you should check for yourself.

Just checked UE, and it is +2 (template is +2, telthor wolf stat block has listed LA of +4).

[OldTrees1]

ECL 2 (if they have INT of 3 or more)

A Wolfwere is a Wolf that transforms into a human under the influence of the full moon. ECL 5 (2RHD, 1 class level, +2LA) for an afflicted Wolfwere. So we know the absolute maximum ECL for an INT 3 Wolf is ECL2.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What does a wolf get you?

50ft base land speed
Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -8 (which I assume you'd be changing), Wis +2, Cha -4.
+2 NA
A 1d6 bite attack
Trip special attack
Track as a bonus feat.
Low-light vision and Scent
A +4 racial bonus on Survival checks to track by scent.
Inability to talk
No hands.


...Yeah, I'd say a +1 LA, honestly, given all the physical and roleplaying issues involved. If you want to cut it down still more,


50ft base land speed
Con +2, Int -2.
A 1d6 bite attack
Trip special attack
Track as a bonus feat.
Low-light vision and Scent
A +4 racial bonus on Survival checks
Inability to talk
No hands.


Might be an acceptable +0 race.

[OldTrees1]

What does a wolf get you?

50ft base land speed
Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -8 (which I assume you'd be changing), Wis +2, Cha -4.
+2 NA
A 1d6 bite attack
Trip special attack
Track as a bonus feat.
Low-light vision and Scent
A +4 racial bonus on Survival checks to track by scent.
Inability to talk
No hands.
2RHD.


Compare that to 2 PC levels with a nice but not OP PC race.
Nezumi(oriental adventures) Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1
Ability Modifiers: +2 Con, -2 Cha
50ft base land speed
Low light Vision
+2 Hide and Move Silently
+2 saves vs poison and disease
Bite 1d4
Bonus Fighter feat
Scent available as a racial feat with Prereq: Wis 11
Rage 1/day
1d10+1d12 HD
BAB +2
Ability to talk
Ability to use hands


Compared to a Nezumi Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1, a Wolf PC would be LA 0 (or less*).

IF the standard wolf would be worth less than LA 0, you would buff it (buffing INT or trading a RHD for a class level) rather than giving it LA -1

[Kuulvheysoon]

Perhaps some sort of nerfed Worg (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/worg.htm)?

[gurgleflep]

Playing as an animal? I actually looked this up a while ago and came across this comment :smallbiggrin:


If you are willing to buy a pdf, I've heard good things about The Noble Wild - a 3rd party supplement based entirely on animals as PCs. It comes in three versions: 3.5 D&D, d20 Modern and Pathfinder.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2cfa4iq.jpg

I hope this helps, even if it's just slightly :smallsmile:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you don't take away the Animal HD it's a pretty balanced ECL 2.

If you take them away it's too strong for a +1 LA, but will be a weak +2 LA.

I'd recommend leaving them on and going with 0 LA.

[Yogibear41]

Looking through the MM for 2 RHD races with +1 la we have both the Gnoll and Lizardfolk.

Gnolls:
+4 str +2 con -2 int and cha
30 speed
Darkvision 60
+1 Natural Armor

LizardFolk
+2 Str and Con -2 int
30 speed
Auto Proficient with simple weapons and shields
+5 Natural Armor
2 claws and a bite (1d4)
hold breath ability

Compared to a wolf
+2 str +4 dex +4 con +2 wis -8 int -6 cha (assume something will probably be changed about the int but I could be wrong)
50 speed
Bonus Feat: Track
+2 Natural Armor
Bite (1d6)
Special: Trip, Lowlight, Scent

Cannot Speak, No hands


Will assume something is done to offset the huge penalty to int, and maybe to cha too.

Comparing it to the lizardfolk seems closer than comparing it to the gnoll, the lizard folk gets 3 natural attacks compared to the wolfs 1, the lizard folk gets slightly less con and dex, but a greater amount of natural armor which puts its AC ahead by 1. The lizardfolk gets free proficiencys which likely won't matter as any class it takes would most likely give them as well, the wolf gets track for free. The wolfs speed is just plain better than the lizardfolks.

So in my opinion:

Ability scores: favor the wolf if adjustments are made to the int and cha penalty

Natural Attacks: Favor the lizard folk greatly

Feats: Favor the wolf

Special Abilities: basically water breathing vs low-light and trip might be campaign specific would I would favor the wolfs.

Speed: Favors the wolf

so about 50/50 on most of the abilities maybe with some slight leanings toward the wolf.

However, this is before taking into account the wolves major weakness:

it can't talk: party communication is important and if you can't talk well yeah also pretty sure this means no spellcasting of spells with verbal components.

it has no hands: which means alot of things: no somatic components if its a spellcaster, and no weapons if its melee. combine that with the fact that it only has 1 natural attack= a level 20 fighter is still only making 1 attack around.

Now I know there are a few ways around some of these problems(silent and still spells, mouthblade sword thing from LOM for iterative attacks) and of course maybe I am missing something, but you are basically having to spend a few feats if you want to even try to be a caster and are already behind 2 levels from RHD, and if you want to be a fighter well, I'm sure there are ways to be decent at it if you do everything right, but a 1d6 bite isn't going to cut it at a high level.

So for me I would vote for a LA of 0 really, if you are determined to give it a LA though no more than +1.


EDIT: I have the noble wild books, and I just looked up wolves in it and they are pretty horrible IMO.

You could use this: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=fkpquflr7rji3nqe98687hu1g0&topic=11607.0 and just take the first 2 levels staying medium sized and therefore not dire.

What kinda of class are you wanting to play? Melee Spellcaster skill monkey etc?

[Feint's End]

Got some great advice already. My personal take would probably be to down the whole Wolf down as suggested by Grod_the_Giant. Then remove the Racial HD and voíla you got yourself a pretty playable PC race .... You should probably stick with Totemist, Druid or Manifesters for classes though.