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View Full Version : Here we go again... Need advice to deal with bad player.



Kalmageddon
2014-01-09, 08:05 PM
I have recently started my second campaign with this group, which includes a player with, let's say limited skills.

Basically, he has some incredible troubles with every aspects of the game, from understanding the setting in general, to understanding the context of every scene, to interactions with npcs, to combat, to roleplaying with other players.

Just to give you an example, here's a few highlights from the first session of this new campaign and how this player usually roleplays.
The setting is Fallout and the group is in a small town. They want to do business with a merchant, whose shop is guarded by a mercenary that asks the players wanting to go in to leave the weapons outside. Simple precaution.
Everyone in the group agrees but the player X who first struggles to grasp the concept of "leaving your weapons outside" flat out asking "how?". Then he stubbornly refuses to do so and thus is left outside the shop.
While the group actually gets some **** done inside, he casually roleplays with the mercenary and asks him where he can sleep. The mercenary points him to a nearby hotel.
Player X for some reason finds the idea unappealing and asks the mercenary if he can sleep with him instead. No, this was not meant to be his character hitting on the mercenary, player X really thought this random mercenary was going to let him sleep in his bed, for free.
So, struggling to keep a straight face and unsure on how to proceed, I roleplay the mercenary as annoyed by this random request. Player X is annoyed as well, thinking his idea was entirely reasonable.
The group at this point is struggling to find a reason why they would want to bring this apparently "special" character with them, but they reluctantly find a compromise along the lines of "at least he's a meat shield" and they move on to their first job, hunting some dangerous critters.
So the first encounter begins, player X's character manages to sneak up on said critter, a big scary humanoid crab mutant. Everything seems fine, right?
Wrong.
Player X doesn't warn the group (that was a few steps back, unaware of the enemy) and instead starts firing. When the group is annoyed by his lack of common sense he replies that he did warn the group by firing. Doesn't matter that this basically only gave a surprise round to him.
So the combat as you might imagine is a chaotic mess, with the group absolutely not ready for it. In this chaos two characters go and tie the beast in melee, one is armed with what basically amounts to a toothpick, the other is X's character, armed with a more reasonable melee weapon.
After being dealt some damage the critter firmly focuses down on X's character, being the most obvious threat, and manages to bring him down to a few hitpoints left.
X panics and asks for help OOC. The other players and myself advise him to fight defensively or even straight out stay in full defence, leaving the rest of the group to deal damage from a distance while he tanks the enemy. The system is d20 modern, by the way.
What does he do? He goes on full retreat instead, but being in an enclosed space he only moves like 30 feet. Anyone familiar with d20 system or D&D will immediatly realize how stupid a move this was, but I'll explain anyway. The critter, not being provided with a distraction to cover X's retreat (it acted immediatly after X's turn) reacts by charging at him, which means an additional bonus to strike he wouldn't have had if X would have just stood there next to him. The beast hits him like a truck and sends X to -9 hitpoints.
The rest of the group manages to bring down the beast but X's character would have bled out. I save his character by flat out telling him "look, the dice says your character is dead, but since this is the first session I'm going to let you keep your character, just be careful in the future and think more about your moves".

Now the problem is that I really don't have a clue on how to help this guy improve. When confronted on the issue he gets defensive and either implies I'm being unfair for not letting his ideas and tactics pay off, or is afraid of being called stupid.
This player is also a huge distraction for the rest of the group, as in, he's hilarious because of how bad he is at the game. I can't take him seriously and I'm honestly getting a bit annoyed at him because it's incredibly frustraing not being able to make things work when he's involved.
Kicking him out is not an option, the rest of the group fluctuates between being annoyed at him and laughin their heads off at him and I don't know what to do in order to make him improve or at the very least stop making a fool of himself.
I know he's not having fun when he hilariously fails at something and deep inside I'm sorry for him, even if I am frustrated by his inability to play the game.

This needs to be fixed somehow, but I'm running out of options. As I said, talking to him explicitly fails on all accounts and whenever I try being more accomodating he flagrantly abuses it and tries to take a backseat at DMing, suggesting absurd changes to the setting we all agreed upon or even changing the rules just for his character.
I can't figure this guy out.

Haldir
2014-01-09, 08:13 PM
Optimize his durability and let him loose. Have another character decide to Art of War the party up a little and begin using X as a distracting shock-troop who also happens to be hilarious, maybe homebrew up some positive modifiers for this. So long as the other players enjoy playing with him, you should be able to tolerate his weirdness for the sake of the game.

prufock
2014-01-09, 08:19 PM
Ask him simply "did you have fun?" If not, why? Unless he's a child, he should be able to take some constructive criticism. Just be straight with him, offer to help with advice (but only if asked). If he refuses your help, it's not your responsibility to force it on him.

Otherwise, let him do his thing. If the group decides he's making the game less fun, then have a group discussion about what to do.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-09, 08:20 PM
Optimize his durability and let him loose. Have another character decide to Art of War the party up a little and begin using X as a distracting shock-troop who also happens to be hilarious, maybe homebrew up some positive modifiers for this. So long as the other players enjoy playing with him, you should be able to tolerate his weirdness for the sake of the game.

Two problems with this:
first, he's big on not following orders or advice just for the sake of being a contrarian. I'm positive that in the example I provided above he didn't put his character in full defence not because he thought his idea was better, but because the idea came from us.
Second, there's a differenc with laughing with someone and laughing at someone. Our group is doing the second thing because he's bad. He's the Plan 9 From Outer Space of rpg players. And while we might enjoy his bs immensly, he doesn't enjoy being constantly ridiculed even if he arguably deserves it because of the sheer nonsense he brings at the table.
And being that I like to think of myself as a decent human being, I don't want this situation to escalate more then it already has. I'm aware that he'll probably always find a way to do something completly absurd that makes everyone laugh, but I would like for him to be able to actually do something constructive for a change.

Anxe
2014-01-09, 08:55 PM
Sounds like you're dealing with a "class clown." Since you described the rest of the group being okay with it, we'll have to work with him. I'd suggest letting the dice fall where they may on the next stupid thing he does and then nudge him towards a more survivable character if possible. A sneak thief if that's a hole in the party. He'll get individual attention while scouting and hopefully be designed for getting out of danger better than before.

Pex
2014-01-09, 09:33 PM
Use reverse psychology. If you want him to go full defense, tell him going full offense is the best thing to do. If you want him to talk with an NPC, tell him to ignore the NPC completely he has nothing interesting to say.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-09, 09:45 PM
Use reverse psychology. If you want him to go full defense, tell him going full offense is the best thing to do. If you want him to talk with an NPC, tell him to ignore the NPC completely he has nothing interesting to say.

That might work, up to a point.
I'll try anyway, but I'd be really sad if it did work, I don't like being reminded of the lower end of human intelligence.

Eonas
2014-01-09, 11:50 PM
As hilarious as that could be, it's less funny because yeah, you're laughing at him. I don't care how much fun the players are having at his expense, it's unkind to keep him in the group as a laughingstock. I suggest that you kick him from the group (I don't know the guy very well, so I can't really give suggestions on how to do so tactfully), for your group's sake and for his.

Just my 2 cp.

Another_Poet
2014-01-10, 01:44 AM
From the very limited amount I know of Player X, it sounds like he suffers from a real-world social disorder of some kind. I mean he may be autistic or have ADHD or some other condition that is breaking down communication here. If that is the case, no amount of talking it over will change things (thought you could privately, directly ask him about this and see if you can learn to manage it).

Bulhakov
2014-01-10, 05:37 AM
If this is a relatively new group, I suggest a small feedback session after each gaming session that will help the players to be better players, and you to be a better GM. Ask each player to speak in turn of:

1 - the worst decision(s) they think their character made during the session

2 - the worst decision made by one of the other players

3 - the coolest/smartest thing they think their character did

4 - the coolest/smartest thing they think one of the other players did

5 - the most boring/annoying part of the session

6 - the most fun/memorable part of the session (it might actually involve some of the stupid decisions from 1-2, which will mean they're not that bad if everyone is having fun)

Alternate the good/bad questions and always try to finish on a positive note.

Lorsa
2014-01-10, 05:55 AM
Why is kicking him not an option?

Some people have a very different idea of roleplaying than others. I have a friend who played a wizard in D&D and wanted people in a small town to build him a personal tower after our group helped them with a problem and thought this was a very reasonable request. He was a hero after all, why wouldn't they spend all this time and resources to build him a personal wizard's tower?

When that failed he tried to look for workers in a "nearby" (it was actually quite far away) town, trying to use diplomacy to convince them to come work for him. Since he had no charisma and no ranks in diplomacy and rolled a 1 on the die, this ended very badly and he got very upset why noone took his request for a tower seriously and wanted to travel 3 weeks to work for almost no money.

These people usually don't think about "what is a logical consequence", they treat roleplaying as some form of literal wish-fullfillment where everything is supposed to go there way. I think it's more or less impossible to make them work under the same premise as I have (and most of my players) and trying to teach them is an exercise in futility.

You can usually spot within 10 minutes of playing if someone is on the "can become a decent roleplayer" or "will never work out" side of the fence. i wasn't there playing with this guy, but it sounds to me he is on the latter side.

Delta
2014-01-10, 06:11 AM
What I'd suggest is trying to have the other players talk to him. He seems to have a problem with authority, as you said, when you recommend something to him, he doesn't do it just to be contrarian. I have dealt with such players in the past, and in my experience, what helped most was when one player (only one, if he feels you're "ganging up" on him, that won't help matters, which is probably what happened when you all told him to fight defensively) talked to him away from the game.

This guy needs to feel that he's a part of the group, don't tell him about all he's done wrong, that will only make him defensively which doesn't help you, and of course it doesn't help if he feels everyone is making fun of him, then it's no surprise he's not big on following advice from the people he only sees laughing at him. He needs to feel that he can trust the people around the table.

This is a difficult situation, but it can work out well enough (the player in question did leave the group eventually, but it was over a different matter), although I guess there's a pretty good chance it doesn't.

BWR
2014-01-10, 06:18 AM
To be perfectly frank, what I got out of the OP is a bunch of people who are upset that someone doesn't immediately know the system in and out and the common player courtesies and how to roleplay properly right off the bat. I don't know if that's the case, but that's what I felt.

Is lack of system understanding an issue? Did X actually know the difference between the reults of full defense and trying to run away?
Did he know the matter of surprise rounds?
And from the way you portray it, none of what happened in that combat is obviously bad roleplaying. It might be a bit unfair to the other players but all his actions can easily be defended on IC reasons. I don't know that this actually is the case, but it could be. The bit about trying to get a free bunk with someone else is a bit weirder. Maybe you should point out that NPCs are people too and should be treated as such. Most people I know won't let random strangers sleep in their beds.

Personally, I'd let this guy try a few more sessions and hope things improve. If it hasn't been done already, maybe some of the other players should point out issues about the system which may affect X's plans in ways he's not aware of, maybe play up NPCs to emphasize they aren't just mindless bots with preprogrammed responses, etc.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 08:07 AM
To be perfectly frank, what I got out of the OP is a bunch of people who are upset that someone doesn't immediately know the system in and out and the common player courtesies and how to roleplay properly right off the bat. I don't know if that's the case, but that's what I felt.


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but this is the second campaign I've run with this group, the previous one went on for a full year playing weekly, in Pathfinder, where many of the rules and mechanics were essentially the same.
The player did know of the effect of fighting defensively, me and everyone else in the group explained to him at lenght all the fine details in the game. When playing in Pathfinder he also displayed a tendency to optimize at least during character creation, so the guy is capable of understanding the rules on at least some level.

Kicking him out is not an option because he's a friend of us and a generally decent person. He's weird even irl, but he seems to be albe to function in society and I don't think he has a mental disorder.

@Lorsa
You may have a point in that he does seem to treat roleplaying as some kind of wish fullifllment where only what he wants matters. But it's not just that.
He seems to be incapable or unwilling to undertsand even the basics of what happens during a scene.
One time, in the previous campaign, the group was stuck inside a city under siege. This was pretty much the whole point of that segment of the campaign and it was obviously clear to everyone what was happening.
When it was his turn to declare what he was going to do he started talking about his character going into a forest (there were no forests for miles) and generally acting like he was playing a different campaign.
After I literally got a headache trying to understand what he was trying to do he asks "wait, we are in a city?". After two sessions taking place there.

Lorsa
2014-01-10, 08:16 AM
Kicking him out is not an option because he's a friend of us and a generally decent person. He's weird even irl, but he seems to be albe to function in society and I don't think he has a mental disorder.

I have friends that are generally decent people that I wouldn't play roleplaying games with, just as I have some friends I wouldn't invite to a Buffy the Vampire Slayer marathon. You can be friends without enjoying the exact same things or doing everything together.


@Lorsa
You may have a point in that he does seem to treat roleplaying as some kind of wish fullifllment where only what he wants matters. But it's not just that.
He seems to be incapable or unwilling to undertsand even the basics of what happens during a scene.
One time, in the previous campaign, the group was stuck inside a city under siege. This was pretty much the whole point of that segment of the campaign and it was obviously clear to everyone what was happening.
When it was his turn to declare what he was going to do he started talking about his character going into a forest (there were no forests for miles) and generally acting like he was playing a different campaign.
After I literally got a headache trying to understand what he was trying to do he asks "wait, we are in a city?". After two sessions taking place there.

Well, I'm really sorry for not being able to give you any good advice. It seems to me he is refusing to live in the shared imaginary space that is supposed to involve everyone and instead lives in his own imaginary space that despite having input from others is decidedly different. I don't think there's a cure for that. It's the very basic premise of roleplaying; that you live in the same world. If he can't understand and accept that, and acknowledge that NPCs may have agencies of their own (and not let him sleep in their bed because that's just weird) it's never going to work. You've played with him for a long time now and he still exhibit these behaviors. That should tell you that there isn't any real cure or fix. Some people are just not cut out for roleplaying.

Studoku
2014-01-10, 08:22 AM
Kicking him out is not an option because he's a friend of us and a generally decent person. He's weird even irl, but he seems to be albe to function in society and I don't think he has a mental disorder.
Geek Social Fallacies (http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html) time.

Particularly 1 and 5 in this case. If he's disrupting the game, making the experience worse for everyone and refusing to listen to advice, there's nothing wrong with kicking him from the group. Just be civil about it and you can hang out with him another time.

That's not to say you shouldn't try to solve the problem first of course. Kicking him out should be a last resort but the option still needs to be there.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 08:25 AM
I have friends that are generally decent people that I wouldn't play roleplaying games with, just as I have some friends I wouldn't invite to a Buffy the Vampire Slayer marathon. You can be friends without enjoying the exact same things or doing everything together.

The problem is that he's been involved from the start and telling him "look, you can't roleplay to save your life, you should stop playing" is just dickish. He would feel rightfully offended by this and it would humiliate him.
And most other players don't actually care if he's having problem playing, they don't see the issue with laughing at him when he does something stupid, so they wouldn't understand why I would want to kick him out and would probably see me as an ******* for doing it.
And just to be perfectly clear, *I* don't want to kick him out. I don't like the idea of discriminating against a player because he can't play well. I want to fix the problem, not make it go away.

Justo to be extra clear since people seem to be focusing on the wrong side of the problem: everyone is having fun, except he's having less fun but keeps on playing. I'm having problems with the current situation not so much because he disrupts the game but because I have moral objections to the idea of the group seeing him as the fool who will always do something stupid.
Even if he's undeniably that.

And of course I'm starting to see following his plays as a chore and I'm getting increasingly frustrated and impatient when dealing with him.

Delta
2014-01-10, 08:31 AM
@Lorsa
You may have a point in that he does seem to treat roleplaying as some kind of wish fullifllment where only what he wants matters. But it's not just that.
He seems to be incapable or unwilling to undertsand even the basics of what happens during a scene.
One time, in the previous campaign, the group was stuck inside a city under siege. This was pretty much the whole point of that segment of the campaign and it was obviously clear to everyone what was happening.
When it was his turn to declare what he was going to do he started talking about his character going into a forest (there were no forests for miles) and generally acting like he was playing a different campaign.
After I literally got a headache trying to understand what he was trying to do he asks "wait, we are in a city?". After two sessions taking place there.

This sounds a LOT like the player I've had to deal with. One time he snuck up on and almost killed an important NPC while everyone around the table including the GM was staring at him in disbelief for the whole scene, in the span of around 10 minutes he was asked at least a dozen times if he was REALLY sure he wanted to do what he was about to do.

And he was constantly missing important details as well, such as the gender of characters and what they looked like, for some example he always imagined the well-groomed, arab-style fighter in the group to look like a ninja (he was indeed a professional assassin but never let that show), even after about half a dozen reminders that he does not look at all like that.

Delta
2014-01-10, 08:33 AM
And most other players don't actually care if he's having problem playing, they don't see the issue with laughing at him when he does something stupid, so they wouldn't understand why I would want to kick him out and would probably see me as an ******* for doing it.

Now that's a big part of the problem. If the rest of the group thinks it's funny and okay to laugh at him, I don't see any solution. He feels laughed at by the rest of the group and if you as the GM tell him to do something he feels like he's being bullied by authority. Not easy to get through to someone in a situation like that.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 08:34 AM
This sounds a LOT like the player I've had to deal with. One time he snuck up on and almost killed an important NPC while everyone around the table including the GM was staring at him in disbelief for the whole scene, in the span of around 10 minutes he was asked at least a dozen times if he was REALLY sure he wanted to do what he was about to do.

And he was constantly missing important details as well, such as the gender of characters and what they looked like, for some example he always imagined the well-groomed, arab-style fighter in the group to look like a ninja (he was indeed a professional assassin but never let that show), even after about half a dozen reminders that he does not look at all like that.

This sounds frighteningly like him.
How did you handle the situation?

Jornophelanthas
2014-01-10, 08:48 AM
It sounds to me like this player misunderstands the premise of roleplaying. Like Delta says, he appears to create his own private fantasy environment in his own mind, and he treats the other players AND the DM as little more than little voices that nudge suggestions into his ear.

Basically, he is just living his own fantasy, and he becomes frustrated when the other participants contradict his fantasy. He probably does not like rolling dice either, because they also take away his control over his fantasy.

This player is simply operating under an entirely wrong premise of roleplaying. He treats it as a choose-your-own-adventure book that is written by the DM and the other players (who have no other involvement in the story), while he reserves the right to rewrite events as they take place. This solipsistic approach to roleplaying - along with his inability to view NPCs or even other PCs as people with separate interests - is what prompts suspicions of mild autism, e.g. Asperger's Syndrome.

You could try to get him out of this mindset, but this may be impossible. (After all, he honestly believes that his understanding of roleplaying is "the only correct way", and he might get very defensive if he is being told that he does not understand at all.) This would require several intensive one-on-one conversations (that are decidedly unfun) that he must be willing to participate in of his own free will. This is more like therapy than like a hobby, and I would advise against it if you don't know how to conduct such a conversation (i.e. have some knowledge of psychology).

If you want to keep roleplaying with him, there is really only one way to accomodate his mindset: DM solo adventures for him, without other players. On writing this, I am actually starting to suspect that this is how he was first introduced to roleplaying in the first place (with a far too accommodating DM).

Red Fel
2014-01-10, 09:34 AM
It sounds to me like this player misunderstands the premise of roleplaying. Like Delta says, he appears to create his own private fantasy environment in his own mind, and he treats the other players AND the DM as little more than little voices that nudge suggestions into his ear.

Basically, he is just living his own fantasy, and he becomes frustrated when the other participants contradict his fantasy. He probably does not like rolling dice either, because they also take away his control over his fantasy.

This player is simply operating under an entirely wrong premise of roleplaying. He treats it as a choose-your-own-adventure book that is written by the DM and the other players (who have no other involvement in the story), while he reserves the right to rewrite events as they take place. This solipsistic approach to roleplaying - along with his inability to view NPCs or even other PCs as people with separate interests - is what prompts suspicions of mild autism, e.g. Asperger's Syndrome.

This.

If it were simply a case of your player being unfamiliar with the setting, or the system, or a particular mechanic or class or ability, that's simply ignorance and the player can be educated. No problem.

But where the player is basically operating in his own world, with his own expectations of what should happen when he acts, the burden is entirely on him to reach the point where the rest of the party can be found.

I would advise taking him aside, not in front of everyone. Remind him that he is your friend and you enjoy having him in the group, the other players enjoy him too. Tell him that his character is fun. Then ask him if he's having fun. If he is, say great, and ask if you can discuss how to make the sessions more enjoyable. If he isn't, ask if you can discuss ways to improve his fun.

Focus on things that worked well in a recent session. Ask if he enjoyed them; ask what about them he enjoyed and if he'd like to do more of that. If you notice there are particular things he enjoys doing with his character, be ready with suggestions on how to make his character more effective at those things, and how to play those improvements.

Next, ask about things that worked not so well. Ask if it bothers him. If it doesn't, you have a possible point of concern if it bothered the other players, and you might pursue it anyway. But if it does, be ready with suggestions on how it can be avoided in the future. Be constructive.

For example, in discussing the episode with the merchant, the conversation might go something like this:

You: So, that merchant. You didn't want to leave your weapons outside?
X: Nope, not gonna happen. They're my weapons.
You: Did it bother you when the rest of the party went in without you?
- If yes, explain that the merchant's request, in this setting, would be considered a reasonable one, but we can always write into the character's background a sort of samurai-esque devotion to his weapons.
You: Now, when you were asking that mercenary to let you sleep in his bed... What did you mean by that?
X: That I should get to sleep there.
- Then you explain that, much like real life, you don't just get stuff for free in the game. Your best bet is to pay for a roof over your head, or own a tent.

By having these conversations outside of the game, the player has less reason to get defensive. Hopefully, he's able to make connections and figure things out on his own. Ideally, you might be able to persuade him to ask you mid-game if he has any questions.

Mind you, if it's a problem of his actually paying attention, that's an entirely different beast. A player who can't or won't pay attention to the game is fairly detrimental, and requires stronger urging to focus.

Ultimately, however, if he can't get out of his own head and into the game, he's not actually playing the game. He's just playing out his fantasies alongside the rest of you. Since he's not really playing the game, there's no real harm in removing him from the game. I agree with the "Geek Fallacies" reference above - he won't stop being your friend just because he stops playing tabletop games with you (unless he's not that great a friend).

Delta
2014-01-10, 09:54 AM
This sounds frighteningly like him.
How did you handle the situation?

Well the main difference here was that the players had just a big a problem with it as the GM, and it made calm discussion about the subject quite difficult, obviously.

I was the one who tried to defuse the situation by talking with him about it on a convention we met at apart from the rest of the group, me being the one in the group with the closest personal relationship to him of course helped. The most important thing to remember is that this guy is most likely feeling pretty bullied, he has a table of people laughing at him and the guy in charge telling him he's doing it wrong (because that's what being told what to do when you want to do something else feels like), it's not a nice feeling.

So the most important part in my case was making sure that he understands you're trying to help him and try to be a friend. I can only imagine this is much more difficult when the rest of the group is content to just laugh at him. Make it clear to him that it's not a bad thing to ask for advice or accept it, that it's not making him look stupid or anything.

Again, I think it's very important for such a talk not happening at the gaming table but somewhere else, so it's just a talk between friends and not a discussion between a GM and the group and one single player, because you need to be honest with him and he needs to understand that you are.

Now I'm not saying that everything was peachy afterwards, but in my case at least, we all found a way to handle him and his character (his character was a HUGE part of the problem as well, he was playing a race with a pretty specific background and profile yet of course constantly ignored that), I'm not sure how well it would've worked long-term because half a year later, he left the group out of other reasons. But that's all I can say, talk to him in private, and even though in your head you want to slap him for being so clueless, try to be understanding and try to view it from his perspective. The way you describe it I really don't think he's doing this on purpose (not that I haven't seen that, too), so always remember that as hard as it can be to understand, there's a reason for why he does what he does.



This player is simply operating under an entirely wrong premise of roleplaying. He treats it as a choose-your-own-adventure book that is written by the DM and the other players (who have no other involvement in the story), while he reserves the right to rewrite events as they take place. This solipsistic approach to roleplaying - along with his inability to view NPCs or even other PCs as people with separate interests - is what prompts suspicions of mild autism, e.g. Asperger's Syndrome.

I wouldn't go quite as far since I have no medical background whatsoever but you could definitely be on to something here, there's definitely a lack of simple social awareness involved that most people take for granted. And telling someone like that to "just be more perceptive" is just as helpful as telling a clinically depressed person to try and be happy. If it were that simple, he would already be doing it.

Segev
2014-01-10, 10:09 AM
My advice is to do two things.

1) For at least one more session, try to play with kid gloves. Assume he truly does not understand the logical consequences of his actions and maybe doesn't grasp the rules. Given what you've said about his not learning, it's very possible that he never DID learn the rules in your last campaign, so taking time to teach him now will help so long as you actively make sure he tries to retain them.

This means, in practical terms, that if your group advises him to go full defensive and he says "I'm moving 30 feet away in full retreat," you tell him, "Okay, but you realize that what 'full defense' means he has +4 to his A.C. and stays put, while retreating as you say he's going to do can only get him 30 ft. away and that the monster will charge that distance and have a +2 to hit while you lose your dex mod to A.C., right? So what you're planning will make it MORE likely your PC will get hit, and what we're suggesting makes it less likely?"

Spell it out for him. Explain to him that mercenaries don't typically share their beds just for the asking, and that even asking implies (with no other context) a suggestion of sexual intention. And no, this mercenary doesn't swing that way.

I really don't know what to make of asking "how?" to the requirement you leave weapons outside. This seems like something easy to resolve if he can explain why he can't do so. The answer, "take whatever weapons you have on your person and place them in this box," should suffice unless there are odd circumstances (such as the character in question being a cyborg, or having power armor with no clothes underneath, or the like).

2) If this does not result in improvement, ask him if he's having fun. If he isn't, ask him why he thinks he isn't. Make suggestions one last time; if it doesn't work, simply flat out tell him that you don't think the expectations he has for the game and the expectations the rest of the group has are compatible. It's not a judgment of him as a person, but simply a recognition that this isn't a fun way for him to spend time with the group. To elevate the enjoyment all have with the time spent on the game, you're asking him to leave.


The truth is, if he will not or cannot learn to do better within the dynamics of the party and the player group, he won't have fun and he harms the fun of others. It's just best if he doesn't play. You wouldn't keep a heavy metal electric guitarist in a band that played mellow jazz with an emphasis on brass instruments. Don't keep him in this group. Don't make it personal. It's a playstyle/expectations thing. If you value hanging out with him in other environs, continue to do so.

Jornophelanthas
2014-01-10, 10:24 AM
I wouldn't go quite as far since I have no medical background whatsoever but you could definitely be on to something here, there's definitely a lack of simple social awareness involved that most people take for granted. And telling someone like that to "just be more perceptive" is just as helpful as telling a clinically depressed person to try and be happy. If it were that simple, he would already be doing it.

I have no medical background either, but was merely providing an explanation of why other people in this thread immediately started thinking of "social disorders". Although I do count myself in that camp.

Lorsa
2014-01-10, 11:01 AM
I have played with a person with Aspergers and he has no problems living in a shared imaginary space. Besides, if you are friends with someone, it's quite likely you would have noticed signs of autism long ago. He could have some form of disorder, but having a disorder doesn't automatically mean you're bad at roleplaying. I know it wasn't said like that, I just want to be clear as I know a few people with various kinds of disorders.

My best bet is still that he lives in his own little world instead of the shared world that the rest of you are playing in. If that's not the case, perhaps he simply have problems remembering audio-based information. Some people can't read a rulebook and understand it to save their life and some might have trouble understanding or remembering large chunks of information that is being told verbally. The way around this would be to use some visual cues to help with the descriptions.

For example, if you describe a woman as having a red dress, hold up a piece of paper that is red, or a picture of a red dress or even better a girl with a red dress. When you mention someone's name, write it down on a whiteboard or hold up some paper where you've written it. It may seem weird but maybe he needs visual input in order to remember things. Do the same for the surroundings, so whenever you are in a city have a piece of paper with a city on it lying on the table and if you're in the woods replace it with a forest. See if that helps him.

caden_varn
2014-01-10, 11:03 AM
A lot of useful things have been said about talking to the problem player, so I won't address that, other than to say that you should be aware that there may be nothing much you can do to get him onto the same page as the rest of you. Hopefully you can, but if nothing works you will need to decide how to go forward - stay as you are with the frustrations you and this player are feeling, drop him, or stop altogether (even if only for a while to recharge). It is not a personal failure if you cannot resolve this.

However, in addition to anything you decide to do here, I think I would also talk to the rest of the group, privately and politely, about how they see the situation and their behaviour. It can be a fine line between laughing with someone and laughing at them (and between laughing at the character and laughing at the player), but if they are doing so, they should be asked to review their behaviour.

Of course they will want to laugh when stupid things happen, but any reasonably empathic person should be prepared to tone things down a bit if the player in question feels that they are ridiculing him.

You also need to think about your fun - the game should be fun for everyone, and that includes the DM. A lot of people seem to forget this, and if you ignore it it can quickly spiral to complete burnout.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 11:13 AM
My advice is to do two things.

1) For at least one more session, try to play with kid gloves. Assume he truly does not understand the logical consequences of his actions and maybe doesn't grasp the rules. Given what you've said about his not learning, it's very possible that he never DID learn the rules in your last campaign, so taking time to teach him now will help so long as you actively make sure he tries to retain them.

This means, in practical terms, that if your group advises him to go full defensive and he says "I'm moving 30 feet away in full retreat," you tell him, "Okay, but you realize that what 'full defense' means he has +4 to his A.C. and stays put, while retreating as you say he's going to do can only get him 30 ft. away and that the monster will charge that distance and have a +2 to hit while you lose your dex mod to A.C., right? So what you're planning will make it MORE likely your PC will get hit, and what we're suggesting makes it less likely?"

Spell it out for him. Explain to him that mercenaries don't typically share their beds just for the asking, and that even asking implies (with no other context) a suggestion of sexual intention. And no, this mercenary doesn't swing that way.

I really don't know what to make of asking "how?" to the requirement you leave weapons outside. This seems like something easy to resolve if he can explain why he can't do so. The answer, "take whatever weapons you have on your person and place them in this box," should suffice unless there are odd circumstances (such as the character in question being a cyborg, or having power armor with no clothes underneath, or the like).

2) If this does not result in improvement, ask him if he's having fun. If he isn't, ask him why he thinks he isn't. Make suggestions one last time; if it doesn't work, simply flat out tell him that you don't think the expectations he has for the game and the expectations the rest of the group has are compatible. It's not a judgment of him as a person, but simply a recognition that this isn't a fun way for him to spend time with the group. To elevate the enjoyment all have with the time spent on the game, you're asking him to leave.


The truth is, if he will not or cannot learn to do better within the dynamics of the party and the player group, he won't have fun and he harms the fun of others. It's just best if he doesn't play. You wouldn't keep a heavy metal electric guitarist in a band that played mellow jazz with an emphasis on brass instruments. Don't keep him in this group. Don't make it personal. It's a playstyle/expectations thing. If you value hanging out with him in other environs, continue to do so.

I might try this, but it won't be easy.
There is also the problem that our group alredy has a limited time to play, we meet at 21:30 and we usually finish playing at around 01:00, effectively playing for like 3 hours 30 minutes if everything goes smoothly. It's not a lot of time when it comes to roleplaying games, combat takes a long time and I have 5 players to follow, so slowing things down even further tends to annoy people.
I also can't talk to X outside of our gaming nights because we don't really hang out that much, but I'll try.
I'm also not a people person, I'm really bad when it comes to putting on a smile or being kind when I feel annoyed or frustrated, so talking to him AND making it look like I'm doing it for him is not going to be easy.

Delta
2014-01-10, 11:17 AM
I'm also not a people person, I'm really bad when it comes to putting on a smile or being kind when I feel annoyed or frustrated, so talking to him AND making it look like I'm doing it for him is not going to be easy.

In that case I absolutely do NOT recommend bringing anything up during the session. You will be annoyed by him, the rest of the group will be laughing at him. That is NOT the time to discuss something like this. If you use kid gloves and spell everything out for him while you're frustrated, I don't think that will help at all if my assumption is right.

Can't you skype or chat with the guy?

Segev
2014-01-10, 11:25 AM
IF you don't hang out other than to game, how does he come to be part of it?

Is he friends with anybody else in the game, and does he hang out with them outside of it?

Are you friends with/do you hang out with those people?

It may be bad to play telephone, but if he's friends with somebody else, you should probably talk to that somebody else, and get them to talk to their friend.

If he's really just kind of there, and you all only hang out for this game, then it may not be worth the effort to keep him around. Skip to step 2. Maybe set aside one game session to discuss the problems openly with the whole group. Try not to gang up on him. Don't wait for a problem to arise. Instead, ask him to start by saying what he wants out of a game.

Heck, point him to this thread. You've not said anything, I don't think, that is cruel here, just honest. Point your whole group to this thread. Ask them to read it with open minds and not to try to justify anything. Instead, ask them to posit suggested solutions.

It's not cruelty to ask him to leave the game. It is also not cruelty to send him here. (He might, potentially, be offended by the suggestion he has a social disorder, but if it's true there's no reason to be offended, and if it's not, he should simply say so and accept that somebody was trying to be sensitive and happened to be wrong.) Focus your group on solving the problem. Accept that it may be a problem only soluble by letting this guy find something else to do with his 3-and-a-half-hours every week. But don't deny yourselves the opportunity to openly and maturely discuss this and see if there are solutions.

I say to point them at this thread because it is something they can respond to in their own time, rather than making special time to meet together when everybody can make it, which could be hard given what you've said about not seeing this guy outside of game time (and how rigidly limited game time is).

Jay R
2014-01-10, 11:44 AM
You're having trouble with somebody who won't listen to advice that's offered to him.

Several of us have suggested that he isn't suited to playing D&D, and it might be kindest to not keep him in a game he isn't enjoying.

But you won't listen to the advice we're giving you.

I'm not pointing out the parallel to tell you to follow the advice, but because you may get something useful out of the parallel. When you recognize that you're not accepting the advice we're giving, maybe it can help you be more patient or understanding about the fact that he won't accept the advice you're giving.

Airk
2014-01-10, 11:55 AM
How does this fellow do with other types of games? (I don't mean "other RPGs", I mean like, if you sat down to play Settlers of Catan or Dominion or something) That might in some way grant some insight into whether he's just incredibly bad with games/rules or whether it's some sort of shared-imagination-space thing? Dunno, I'm grasping at straws, people have the solutions pretty well covered, I think.

Eonas
2014-01-10, 11:55 AM
You're having trouble with somebody who won't listen to advice that's offered to him.

Several of us have suggested that he isn't suited to playing D&D, and it might be kindest to not keep him in a game he isn't enjoying.

But you won't listen to the advice we're giving you.

I'm not pointing out the parallel to tell you to follow the advice, but because you may get something useful out of the parallel. When you recognize that you're accepting the advice we're giving, maybe it can help you be more patient or understanding about the fact that he won't accept the advice you're giving.

Those were my thoughts exactly, but I was too polite to say them.

Glad somebody finally mentioned the Oliphant in the room.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 12:59 PM
You're having trouble with somebody who won't listen to advice that's offered to him.

Several of us have suggested that he isn't suited to playing D&D, and it might be kindest to not keep him in a game he isn't enjoying.

But you won't listen to the advice we're giving you.

I'm not pointing out the parallel to tell you to follow the advice, but because you may get something useful out of the parallel. When you recognize that you're not accepting the advice we're giving, maybe it can help you be more patient or understanding about the fact that he won't accept the advice you're giving.

I'm sorry, I explicitly replied to some suggestions saying that I'll try to follow them, how does that qualifies as not listening to advice? :smallconfused:


How does this fellow do with other types of games? (I don't mean "other RPGs", I mean like, if you sat down to play Settlers of Catan or Dominion or something) That might in some way grant some insight into whether he's just incredibly bad with games/rules or whether it's some sort of shared-imagination-space thing? Dunno, I'm grasping at straws, people have the solutions pretty well covered, I think.

He does ok, for the most part.
He does tend to be really slow to get his turn done, but other then that I wouldn't know what to say. He's not really good at them I guess?
Though that doesn't seem relevant as board games are quite different from rpgs.


In that case I absolutely do NOT recommend bringing anything up during the session. You will be annoyed by him, the rest of the group will be laughing at him. That is NOT the time to discuss something like this. If you use kid gloves and spell everything out for him while you're frustrated, I don't think that will help at all if my assumption is right.

Can't you skype or chat with the guy?

We hang out outside of gaming night sometimes, but he has other friends and a very posessive girlfriend. And then there's work related issues.
He's not on Skype very often for the same reasons.
I'll think of something to have the chance ad talk to him one on one, but first I want to try the reverse psychology thing. It would be hilariously sad if it did work, but it would fix most of the problems we have with him if we had a way to steer him in the right direction reliably.

Lord of Shadows
2014-01-10, 01:16 PM
And most other players don't actually care if he's having problem playing, they don't see the issue with laughing at him when he does something stupid, so they wouldn't understand why I would want to kick him out and would probably see me as an ******* for doing it.

And just to be perfectly clear, *I* don't want to kick him out. I don't like the idea of discriminating against a player because he can't play well. I want to fix the problem, not make it go away.

If this player is refusing to learn/adapt/play by the rules, you might try this. It will not work if there is a real world disorder of some kind present. You say the others don't have a problem. They may not be having a problem only because it hasn't affected them yet. They will see things differently if this character does something that gets them all killed. Kind of drastic, but entirely possible in-game. "Don't push the button" usually means "Don't push the button." If someone does... well... consequences. The problem player's character could even be the last one standing. And that player will have a table full of people who were just laughing and are now glaring at him. As I said, drastic, but possible. Characters die in RPG's.


It sounds to me like this player misunderstands the premise of roleplaying. Like Delta says, he appears to create his own private fantasy environment in his own mind, and he treats the other players AND the DM as little more than little voices that nudge suggestions into his ear.

Basically, he is just living his own fantasy, and he becomes frustrated when the other participants contradict his fantasy. He probably does not like rolling dice either, because they also take away his control over his fantasy.

Quite possible. What is this player's background in gaming in general? How long has he been playing RPG's? Does he have a copy of the rules? Has he read them? Pointing out that there are rules is appropriate in some cases.


Spell it out for him. Explain to him that mercenaries don't typically share their beds just for the asking, and that even asking implies (with no other context) a suggestion of sexual intention. And no, this mercenary doesn't swing that way.

This should be at least attempted, and certainly if the problem is knowledge of the game and the rules. This could also lessen the other player's "enjoyment" of watching him fail, since this will chew up game time. Game rules have consequences, and play style also has consequences. If the other players have to be constantly delayed because of rules clarification, they will eventually stop seeing the humor in it.


If this does not result in improvement, ask him if he's having fun. If he isn't, ask him why he thinks he isn't. Make suggestions one last time; if it doesn't work, simply flat out tell him that you don't think the expectations he has for the game and the expectations the rest of the group has are compatible. It's not a judgment of him as a person, but simply a recognition that this isn't a fun way for him to spend time with the group. To elevate the enjoyment all have with the time spent on the game, you're asking him to leave.

I would add that if his expectations don't seem to be in line with the rest of the players, it is certainly a good thing to ask. If he does have some social problem, then gaming may be his only real social interaction, and every effort should be made to save that. Maybe there is another game/system/setting that is more like what he thinks an RPG should be. Short of changing to that game, maybe there are elements from that game that can be imported.


There is also the problem that our group alredy has a limited time to play, we meet at 21:30 and we usually finish playing at around 01:00, effectively playing for like 3 hours 30 minutes if everything goes smoothly. It's not a lot of time when it comes to roleplaying games, combat takes a long time and I have 5 players to follow, so slowing things down even further tends to annoy people.

I also can't talk to X outside of our gaming nights because we don't really hang out that much, but I'll try.
I'm also not a people person, I'm really bad when it comes to putting on a smile or being kind when I feel annoyed or frustrated, so talking to him AND making it look like I'm doing it for him is not going to be easy.

Again, if every time his character does something "stupid" the game is paused and the consequences pointed out to him, this will chew up time and the other players will notice. But this may only be effective if it is rules knowledge issue. If there is a personality/mental issue it probably won't be effective, but then perhaps should still be done. He may genuinely not realize the results of what he is doing, time after time. Patience is a virtue.. after all.

You may have a person here who has problems, but doesn't have the ability, or faculty, to overcome those problems, and for whom gaming is his only real social interaction. Only you and your players can know this, as none of us know him, and in this case you will have to allow for his problems to keep him in the group. But don't laugh at him for them if he can't help it. He may genuinely not be aware that he is doing anything wrong, and the laughter is just how he thinks things are supposed to be. Kind of sad, in a way, but just make sure he is really enjoying himself and not just thinking that screwing up and being laughed at is how it always is. Even in real life...
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Lord of Shadows
2014-01-10, 01:24 PM
We hang out outside of gaming night sometimes, but he has other friends and a very posessive girlfriend. And then there's work related issues.
He's not on Skype very often for the same reasons.

Just picked up on this... Is it possible he is doing this on purpose? How does the girlfriend feel about game nights? Is there a female player in your group? Perhaps the girlfriend objects to his game nights for some reason (or is jealous) and he is looking for a way to get kicked out? Or wants to be able to tell her he was kicked out? Emotions can be a tricky business.

Again, you and your players are "on scene" with this and are more aware of his situation than we are.
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Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 01:33 PM
Just picked up on this... Is it possible he is doing this on purpose? How does the girlfriend feel about game nights? Is there a female player in your group? Perhaps the girlfriend objects to his game nights for some reason (or is jealous) and he is looking for a way to get kicked out? Or wants to be able to tell her he was kicked out? Emotions can be a tricky business.

Again, you and your players are "on scene" with this and are more aware of his situation than we are.
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No, definitly not this.
He's not doing it on purpose, that much is clear. He also does put some effort into the game, which is why I fell really conflicted on this issue.
On one hand I *want* him to be good, to succeed, to have fun. On the other hand, I don't feel like it's right to hand him everything. I don't do it with other players and they are fine with it, actually, since this last campaign is survival focused, they are quite thrilled by the idea of having to really manage the risk-reward factor.

As for your other questions, he has at least a few years of experience and has read the rules.

Lord of Shadows
2014-01-10, 01:39 PM
No, definitly not this.
He's not doing it on purpose, that much is clear. He also does put some effort into the game, which is why I fell really conflicted on this issue.

On one hand I *want* him to be good, to succeed, to have fun. On the other hand, I don't feel like it's right to hand him everything. I don't do it with other players and they are fine with it, actually, since this last campaign is survival focused, they are quite thrilled by the idea of having to really manage the risk-reward factor.

As for your other questions, he has at least a few years of experience and has read the rules.

Ok, that is good. If he was doing it on purpose that opens a while other can of worms.

I think I would try to make sure he really is having fun, then, and not just going along with the laughter because he thinks that how it's supposed to be. Touch on the "what are your expectations" angle, you may be surprised to hear what he has to say, especially if it's away from the group.

From the other advice on here I think you can probably get a handle on this, just keep at it and take it one step at a time.
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Eonas
2014-01-10, 01:44 PM
As for your other questions, he has at least a few years of experience and has read the rules.

He has a few years of experience playing PF and still plays like that? This might be a hard habit to break for him, actually.

Lord of Shadows
2014-01-10, 01:47 PM
Yea, this is going to be a challenge, for both DM and players... But I don't think it's an impossible one.
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mucat
2014-01-10, 02:11 PM
Y'know, the tactical blunders in combat and the weird behavior toward NPCs seem to share a common root: he doesn't picture the game world as having its own dynamic separate from his character. In his mind, NPCs don't have their own opinions and agendas, the terrain is whatever he decides to imagine it is...and if he moves away from that mutant crab thing, it will stay where it is and not chase him down.

As you said, it's not that he didn't understand the rules on full defense...he just had a better defense in mind, which was to move out of reach. And then you blatantly cheated by saying that the crab moved too. :smallwink:

Next time he wants to pull a crazy move, in or out of combat, ask him "What do you think the (mercenary / shop owner / horrible mutant crab) will do in response?" Not only might his answer be unrealistic -- which you can explain as diplomatically as possible -- but it sounds to me like he will not even have thought about this question until you ask it explicitly.

The point is not so much to correct his immediate action as to get him to start asking himself how the game world will respond to his actions, without you having to provide the spark.


After I literally got a headache trying to understand what he was trying to do he asks "wait, we are in a city?". After two sessions taking place there.

...and for this kind of thing, the relevant question might be "What is your understanding of what's going on?" Again, the goal is to get him to realize he's supposed to be paying attention to events in the game world at all, which he doesn't seem to have grasped.

(To keep this question from putting him on the spot too badly, you could ask it at the beginning or end of a session, as a recap. I like to do this anyway as a GM, to see what the players found most important or interesting about a situation.)

Delta
2014-01-10, 05:01 PM
No, definitly not this.
He's not doing it on purpose, that much is clear. He also does put some effort into the game, which is why I fell really conflicted on this issue.
On one hand I *want* him to be good, to succeed, to have fun. On the other hand, I don't feel like it's right to hand him everything. I don't do it with other players and they are fine with it, actually, since this last campaign is survival focused, they are quite thrilled by the idea of having to really manage the risk-reward factor.

As for your other questions, he has at least a few years of experience and has read the rules.

Next time I see the player I was talking about, I really have to talk to him about the possibility of him having a long lost italian twin brother.

I fully agree with you, from what I've read, this absolutely does not sound like a player who's doing it on purpose. I have witnessed players who tried being contrarian and doing stuff like this on purpose, it looks very differently in my experience.

Lorsa
2014-01-10, 05:27 PM
I do think you should try the added visual help too, just to see if it changes anything.

dps
2014-01-10, 07:04 PM
He's not doing it on purpose, that much is clear. He also does put some effort into the game, which is why I fell really conflicted on this issue.
On one hand I *want* him to be good, to succeed, to have fun. On the other hand, I don't feel like it's right to hand him everything. I don't do it with other players and they are fine with it, actually, since this last campaign is survival focused, they are quite thrilled by the idea of having to really manage the risk-reward factor.


Look, obviously I don't know the guy, but either he has some sort of mental defect, or he's doing this on purpose. I can buy that someone doesn't understand the game rules well enough to grasp the implications of retreating vs standing their ground, but now knowing how to leave one's weapons outside, or asking a random stranger if you can sleep in their bed? There's something wrong there.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-10, 09:05 PM
Look, obviously I don't know the guy, but either he has some sort of mental defect, or he's doing this on purpose. I can buy that someone doesn't understand the game rules well enough to grasp the implications of retreating vs standing their ground, but now knowing how to leave one's weapons outside, or asking a random stranger if you can sleep in their bed? There's something wrong there.

I appreciate you wanting to help, but I don't like to think of someone as "wrong". He might very well have his quirks and limitations, that doesn't make him less deserving of being at the gaming talbe then anyone else, nor does this justifies kicking him out.
And it's not "geek fallacy", it's just not being selfish and respecting a man that has this gaming night as one of the few chances he has to hang out with someone other then her girlfriend and her girlfriend's friends and to indulge in what is fairly obviously a hobby that he likes, despite his difficulties in actually playing it properly.
He is hardly destroying the game, there are problems to be fixed, that's for sure, but I want just that. Nobody's fun is being ruined I think, the one that is suffering the worst is himself. And me, probably, because it's a pain to be the GM that has to deal with his weirdness, but I can take it and I have 4 other players I enjoy seeing playing well. So, fixing the problems, not throwing everything away just because it's easier and nobody is forcing me to keep him around.


I do think you should try the added visual help too, just to see if it changes anything.

What do you mean?

Lord of Shadows
2014-01-10, 09:35 PM
I do think you should try the added visual help too, just to see if it changes anything.


What do you mean?

I think that's referring to the visuals provided by describing what is happening. As has been suggested, instead of just reacting to what he does, and letting it happen, explain what is going to happen as a result. Maybe if he starts to visualize what is happening with his character it will help.
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Arbane
2014-01-10, 09:58 PM
Play Toon instead? That way, his bizarrely out-of-synch ideas can provide deliberate humor.

Scow2
2014-01-11, 01:46 AM
I think that's referring to the visuals provided by describing what is happening. As has been suggested, instead of just reacting to what he does, and letting it happen, explain what is going to happen as a result. Maybe if he starts to visualize what is happening with his character it will help.
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Actually, he meant use props. "Describing" is still auditory, not visual.

cobaltstarfire
2014-01-11, 02:46 AM
I know you have a really limited time to play, but if you can at all get him to come early (or stay after) that might be a good time to talk to him.

I think it was already suggested, but if you can't talk to him I'd talk to the group. Let them know that you are uncomfortable with them laughing at him and stuff. If one of them hangs out with this particular player more, maybe they can talk to him instead.

Lorsa
2014-01-11, 04:25 AM
What do you mean?

Look at the post I wrote before the one you quoted and you will see.

I had a theory that he might have some problems with understanding or remembering auditory information. Add in visual help like placing a picture of a city on the table when you are in the city and write down names of people on a whiteboard and hold up pictures that represent the things you are describing. See if it helps. Some people are very poor at taking in information from one source or the other.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-11, 08:06 AM
Look at the post I wrote before the one you quoted and you will see.

I had a theory that he might have some problems with understanding or remembering auditory information. Add in visual help like placing a picture of a city on the table when you are in the city and write down names of people on a whiteboard and hold up pictures that represent the things you are describing. See if it helps. Some people are very poor at taking in information from one source or the other.

Ah, right.
Good suggetion, I was already going to do that for this particular campaign because I've put a lot of effort in the setting (Fallout, but set in New York City, which hasn't been presented in any of the games) so I'd like to show it off a littl bit more.

I don't know if that will help, I mean, in the infamous fight against the crab mutant we were using a detailed map of the environment and he still didn't consider how little distance he could put between him and the enemy.
Coming to think of it, we always used the battle grid in the previous Pathfinder campaign and, while it did help a little, he still did some really stupid things even when he had clear visual representation of where his chracter was in relation to the enemy.

Lorsa
2014-01-11, 08:36 AM
Ah, right.
Good suggetion, I was already going to do that for this particular campaign because I've put a lot of effort in the setting (Fallout, but set in New York City, which hasn't been presented in any of the games) so I'd like to show it off a littl bit more.

I don't know if that will help, I mean, in the infamous fight against the crab mutant we were using a detailed map of the environment and he still didn't consider how little distance he could put between him and the enemy.
Coming to think of it, we always used the battle grid in the previous Pathfinder campaign and, while it did help a little, he still did some really stupid things even when he had clear visual representation of where his chracter was in relation to the enemy.

How is he doing in school and other parts of life where you have to take in information? Does he play any sports where you have to make tactical decisions? Is this phenomenom only occuring in roleplaying or is it visible in other places as well?

Kalmageddon
2014-01-11, 10:57 AM
How is he doing in school and other parts of life where you have to take in information? Does he play any sports where you have to make tactical decisions? Is this phenomenom only occuring in roleplaying or is it visible in other places as well?

I have absolutely no idea.
He works in a souvernir shop and from what I know he's doing fine. He used to do boxing, but from what I can tell that was a few years back. Right now I don't think he's doing any other sport.

Lord of Shadows
2014-01-11, 11:24 AM
Add in visual help like placing a picture of a city on the table when you are in the city and write down names of people on a whiteboard and hold up pictures that represent the things you are describing. See if it helps. Some people are very poor at taking in information from one source or the other.
Ahhh... yes, this helps me sometimes. :smallbiggrin:

We use a battlemap on the table and have a large dry-erase board hanging up and make use of both. Especially for tactical situations. With all the fiddly bits of some RPG's today, this is almost a necessity any more, just to keep track of locations and movement.


I have absolutely no idea.
He works in a souvernir shop and from what I know he's doing fine. He used to do boxing, but from what I can tell that was a few years back. Right now I don't think he's doing any other sport.

Hmm.. Boxing. There could be an old injury hanging around. This may also be why he no longer boxes. I would definitely proceed with the ideas you have gathered here, but it may be slow going.
.

Vangor
2014-01-11, 04:18 PM
While I do not think he is being deliberate based on what you have said, sounds as though he wants to play his own game. He does not listen to suggestions because this would be someone else playing his character. He does not listen to descriptions and actions because this is someone else playing and he does not want to follow them. He does not follow the described story in any logical manner because this is someone else telling him how he should play.

Primary rule players need to understand is to make life easier for everyone else in the group. Secondary rule players need to understand is simply because there is an option does not mean this is a reasonable or likely one. Had he given his weapons the party could have moved forward easily without having to handle a second awkward and pointless 'story' interrupting play, and had he realized simply because he was asked to surrender his weapons does not mean saying 'No' somehow brought about some interesting options but is for verisimilitude.

Once my players realized working within the confines of the crafted world and plot and not trying to do disparate tasks as far more enjoyable, our gaming flowed better and became more solid. Tell him flatly those two rules. Now, were there a roleplaying reason, this is fine; if reduced to near death then character reaction may be to flee rather than calculate likelihood of being hit, or if parting with weapons seems too dangerous to the paranoid, then sure. However, sounds as though, as said, he wants to play his own game as otherwise he feels is not playing.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-14, 09:52 AM
This evening we'll be having our gaming night, second session of this campaign and I'm looking foward to make use of some of your advice.

For starters, I thought what I might try and do is using the "ask him what he thinks will happen" thing when he does something stupid. That way little by little I can try and make him understand the dynamics of roleplaying games and that sometimes things may not go as he thinks.
If he's going to be uncooperative or just stubborn, I'll try some reverse psychology to nudge him the right direction. I'll also try to moderate the group when they laugh at him or get annoyed at him. I believe that he may function better under less pressure.

This is the plan, what do you think?

Segev
2014-01-14, 10:01 AM
Sounds like a plan to me! Definitely try the "ask him what he thinks the reactions of the NPCs/consequences of his actions" will be thing. It will encourage him to think about it. Be a touch patient, and be wiling to ask him why he thinks somebody would act in a way, or why consequences might be how he sees. If it still seems not to make sense, you can explain why it doesn't make sense.

This can tend to lead to arguments; it often does in games I'm in. But for this particular player, starting here is essential, I think.

The Grue
2014-01-14, 01:15 PM
This evening we'll be having our gaming night, second session of this campaign and I'm looking foward to make use of some of your advice.

For starters, I thought what I might try and do is using the "ask him what he thinks will happen" thing when he does something stupid. That way little by little I can try and make him understand the dynamics of roleplaying games and that sometimes things may not go as he thinks.

I think this is a good idea. I notice it's one of the lowest-effort suggestions offered in this thread, and I've noticed you've commented a few times that a given suggestion "wouldn't be easy" - I just think it's worth mentioning that there may not be an easy solution. Furthermore, getting maximum results typically requires putting in maximum effort. There's very rarely a low-effort, high-result solution.


If he's going to be uncooperative or just stubborn, I'll try some reverse psychology to nudge him the right direction.

No no no no no no no no no. Reverse psychology, especially on a person whose psychology you know to be difficult to predict, is a bad idea. For one, because you have no idea how he'll react and it might just make things worse. Suppose, instead of telling him to take a Total Defense against the crab, you decided to employ reverse psychology and told him instead to full-attack it. Suppose he did. Suppose, then, the crab attacked on its turn and killed him. From your friend's perspective, he asked you for advice and you advised him to do something that got him killed. You've just made the situation a lot worse.

Second, reverse psychology is deception. You're telling him to take an action with the expectation that he will do the reverse, and relying on him to believe that you want him to do what you suggest. You're telling a lie in order to get him, basically, to do what you want. I'm confused why you object to others laughing at this player, but you're perfectly okay using deception to manipulate him.

Third, ultimately this player is going to do whatever he wants. This is a thing about people; there's no magic button you can press to get them to do what you want them to do. Which, it bears mentioning, is the problem this player seems to be having.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-14, 01:32 PM
No no no no no no no no no. Reverse psychology, especially on a person whose psychology you know to be difficult to predict, is a bad idea. For one, because you have no idea how he'll react and it might just make things worse. Suppose, instead of telling him to take a Total Defense against the crab, you decided to employ reverse psychology and told him instead to full-attack it. Suppose he did. Suppose, then, the crab attacked on its turn and killed him. From your friend's perspective, he asked you for advice and you advised him to do something that got him killed. You've just made the situation a lot worse.

Second, reverse psychology is deception. You're telling him to take an action with the expectation that he will do the reverse, and relying on him to believe that you want him to do what you suggest. You're telling a lie in order to get him, basically, to do what you want. I'm confused why you object to others laughing at this player, but you're perfectly okay using deception to manipulate him.

I don't like it either, but I'll admit I'm curious to see if it works. This guy can be incredibly stubborn and prone to be a contrarian.
That said, it's a "the end justifies the means" situation, if all it takes for him to start playing better is a little deception on my part that no one will ever know anyway, it might be worth a shot.

I'll be careful with it, it's mostly a last resort kind of deal, don't worry. I don't intend to abuse it and I know that it might backfire horribly. I also share your moral objections. As I said, last resort if he's about to kill himself, again.

The Grue
2014-01-14, 02:17 PM
I don't like it either, but I'll admit I'm curious to see if it works. This guy can be incredibly stubborn and prone to be a contrarian.
That said, it's a "the end justifies the means" situation, if all it takes for him to start playing better is a little deception on my part that no one will ever know anyway, it might be worth a shot.

I'll be careful with it, it's mostly a last resort kind of deal, don't worry. I don't intend to abuse it and I know that it might backfire horribly. I also share your moral objections. As I said, last resort if he's about to kill himself, again.

You realize this is just a tabletop roleplaying game right? Let's take a look at that sentence: "the ends justify the means". The means here being lying to someone you feel a strong bond of friendship with, strong enough that you're going out of your way to help him rather than ask not to show up. The ends being adjusting the situation at the gaming table to be one that you're more comfortable with.

Think about that for a minute, and then tell me if the ends really do justify the means here.

Airk
2014-01-14, 02:32 PM
You realize this is just a tabletop roleplaying game right? Let's take a look at that sentence: "the ends justify the means". The means here being lying to someone you feel a strong bond of friendship with, strong enough that you're going out of your way to help him rather than ask not to show up. The ends being adjusting the situation at the gaming table to be one that you're more comfortable with.

And ALSO one in which this particular person isn't going to be laughed at by the so-called friends at the table. I mean really, it's not like he's proposed giving the guy a lobotomy.

The Grue
2014-01-14, 03:05 PM
And ALSO one in which this particular person isn't going to be laughed at by the so-called friends at the table. I mean really, it's not like he's proposed giving the guy a lobotomy.

The actual intentions and desires of the player are unknown. The OP wishes to create said environment because he believes the player is uncomfortable and isn't enjoying himself, and repeated suggestions to discern the player's actual level of enjoyment have gone ignored.

Since the player's intentions and desires are unknown, the OP is acting to further his own. We cannot be certain the player even wants the OP to intervene on his behalf, and yet that's precisely what everyone in this thread has assumed.

Observe:


Now the problem is that I really don't have a clue on how to help this guy improve. When confronted on the issue he gets defensive and either implies I'm being unfair for not letting his ideas and tactics pay off, or is afraid of being called stupid.
This player is also a huge distraction for the rest of the group, as in, he's hilarious because of how bad he is at the game. I can't take him seriously and I'm honestly getting a bit annoyed at him because it's incredibly frustraing not being able to make things work when he's involved.

Airk
2014-01-14, 03:26 PM
So you're saying he should just kick him out instead? :smallconfused:

The Grue
2014-01-14, 03:41 PM
I'm saying that there isn't an easy solution and that waving off suggestions that are "not easy" in search of one that is, is counterproductive.

And, furthermore, that reverse psychology is firmly in the Bad Idea category.

Airk
2014-01-14, 03:53 PM
I'm saying that there isn't an easy solution and that waving off suggestions that are "not easy" in search of one that is, is counterproductive.

I don't think there's any 'waving off' here, so much as "I'm going to save these for after easy ones fail."



And, furthermore, that reverse psychology is firmly in the Bad Idea category.

What's the worst that can happen? The player gets upset and quits the game?

Jornophelanthas
2014-01-14, 04:00 PM
Apart from the moral objections against using reverse psychology, there is another practical concern here.

If the OP attempts this during a game session, either all the other have to be in on it (and need to keep a straight face while the DM delivers the bad advice), or need to be either apathetic or distracted while the DM hands (bad) advice to player X.

Some possible risks:
1. The other players badly struggle to contain their laughter as the DM hands player X bad advice. Player X might notice, or he might not. If player X follows the advice, he will embarrass himself to the amusement of the other players, possibly killing his character. If player Xl indeed allows himself to be manipulated through his contrariness, he will ALSO embarrass himself to the amusement to the other players. Either way, the joke is on him.

2. The other players loudly contradict the OP, saying: "This is bad advice! No, Player X, you should do Y instead." And if Y is exactly the course of action the OP is trying to steer player X towards, the plan fails (whether player X ends up doing Y or not).

3. Good luck trying to distract the other players while player X's character is in the spotlight. He is a major source of amusement for them, remember.

On these grounds alone, reverse psychology will not work.

The Grue
2014-01-14, 04:03 PM
What's the worst that can happen? The player gets upset and quits the game?

I've actually answered this in a previous post. I encourage you to read it.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-14, 08:10 PM
Well, session went allright.
I didn't need to use any of the advice given to me because he actually played well. There was some minor arguing over combat not going as he expected, but it was quickly solved.

mucat
2014-01-15, 06:24 PM
Well, session went allright.
I didn't need to use any of the advice given to me because he actually played well. There was some minor arguing over combat not going as he expected, but it was quickly solved.

Awesome news! I hope the trend continues! :smallsmile:

Lord of Shadows
2014-01-15, 09:27 PM
Well, session went allright.
I didn't need to use any of the advice given to me because he actually played well. There was some minor arguing over combat not going as he expected, but it was quickly solved.

Ditto what mucat said. Perhaps in hindsight he realized there was something not quite right the last time.

Best of luck that it continues this way.
.

Incorrect
2014-01-16, 03:54 AM
If he has difficulty grasping the scene, perhaps you can help him with some simple handouts?
A quick sketch of the shop, a map of the city they are in, or a mood picture showing the dungeon interior. Some may be drawn in a couple of seconds, and some might be found on the internet.

I hope the sessions continue to improve :)

ElenionAncalima
2014-01-16, 08:28 AM
The guy may be a bit of a mismatcher, who doesn't like being told be is wrong. One strategy I would recommend is to praise him when he does things right. Sounds like this session went better. I would consider figuring out what he did well, and telling him that it was effective. Combined with the in game repreccusions for making mistakes, he may get the picture.

Kalmageddon
2014-01-17, 11:37 AM
Indeed, maybe his awful performance in the first session was just him getting adjusted. In hindsight, during the previous campaign he did improve over time.

I think I'll probably go back to using the battle grid just for him, even if it will be a bit jarring to use fantasy themed miniatures in a sci-fi campaign. He has this tendency of positioning the enemies where he would want them to be, disregarding that they can move on their own, no matter how many times I explain their position.