Can you make an atheist cleric?

[Totema]

This is pretty much just for laughs, but has anyone ever pulled off this concept work before? I'm not talking about clerics of ideals - those guys may not revere a specific deity, but they do at least believe that divinity is real. I'm referring to clerics who literally don't believe in the source of their spells and powers.

I can perhaps imagine a cleric who thinks he is an arcane caster but in reality is getting his spells from a divine source. I can't think of a way to rationalize him knowing how to turn undead, though. Anyone here have any thoughts?

[zindane2000]

He believes in science. It's all positive and negative energy.

[Aasimar]

Well, I would think the easiest way is to have him believe in the so called gods, as powerful entities of their portfolios, but refusing to believe that they are actually 'Gods'.

He might think they're just a naturally occurrence, like a sorcerer, only much more powerful, or just some strange extradimensional beings with a lot of power.

He might align with one of them, but see it more as an alliance between two likeminded individuals (even if one is orders of magnitude more poweful) than as a relationship between worshiper and worshipee.

On the other hand, if you go your route, and he just plain doesn't believe they exist, at all, then he would have to be a follower of an ideal or he just plain isn't a cleric, there needs to be something channeling divine power his way. But assuming he does get divine power, believing it just a slightly different flavor of arcane power, then I don't see why you'd have a problem with Turn Undead, it's just another manifestation of power "Haha, now I will channel my power to disrupt the unnatural magics that animates these walking corpses." etc.

[Silvanoshei]

You do realize that faith and atheism is two-sides of the same coin? Just because you believe in no deities/gods doesn't mean you have no faith. You have faith in your belief nothing exists, only science or whatever reasoning floats your boat. So in that sense, he/she would believe in the deity of nothingless... that could "dispel" undead of other deity powers.

[Feint's End]

Well first of all being an atheist in a typical D&D world ist plain stupid because there is no question that divine beings and powers are real. Only situation I can imagine is a really, really, really low magic world.

Secondly a cleric has to follow and ideal if he doesn't worship a deity so what you propose wouldn't work. Also Atheistic means per definition that you don't believe in god(s) so following an Ideal and (for example) believing the beings called gods don't exist (still pretty stupid) is Atheistic.

A cleric without having an Ideal or God though? No never. If their powers aren't born out of detication to a deity they are out of detication to a cause. Clerics are not people who just randomly develop powers without a reason (see the prepared caster part right there).

The closest you can get is by having a cleric worship an ideal and denying the existence of gods. He could for example say that there are no gods and what other clerics and people worship are just parts of the real divinity. That would be plausible even in the standard 3.P world and per definition Atheistic. Hope I could help.

[mabriss lethe]

This sounds like a job for the Archivist, actually.

[Feint's End]

{{scrubbed}}

[Composer99]

A cleric of an ideal or philosophy would not be required to believe in the existence of deities per se, so I would not rule it out as a way to get an atheist cleric.

Otherwise, a DM or setting-builder could simply postulate the existence of a pool of "divine" energy that people with sufficient dedication or devotion to something could access to get clerical powers (similar to how in 4E clerics get their power not directly from deities so much as from the Astral Sea itself).

You could also have clerics that are devoted to natural phenomena or objects (the sun, say) while acknowledging that the objects of their devotion are not divine entities - but their devotion is so strong, in a world of magic, that it grants them supernatural powers. Arguably druids follow this model already.

[Zanos]

In the Forgotten Realms settings, one of the old Magocracies, the Netherese, actually believed that deities were just sufficiently powerful spellcasters. It's pretty hard to create a character in most settings that doesn't believe that deities exist unless they have single digit mental scores, but rationalizing that they're just extremely powerful entities is possible.

Many settings allow clerics to revere ideals rather than a god itself. In such a setting, the character could worship the ideal of magic and be granted spells that way.

I'll second mabriss on the Archivist, though. They have a lot in common with wizards while still casting divine spells.


Good point. Atheism is a faith in and itself.
I suggest we drop this line of discussion. Certain people may be irritated by it.

[Aasimar]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Composer99]

Well, I would think the easiest way is to have him believe in the so called gods, as powerful entities of their portfolios, but refusing to believe that they are actually 'Gods'.

He might think they're just a naturally occurrence, like a sorcerer, only much more powerful, or just some strange extradimensional beings with a lot of power.

Interestingly, that is basically the position of one of the old planar "factions" from the Planescape campaign setting.

[Totema]

I just realized that this thread could go horribly wrong. I'm proceeding with caution...

I could buy that, in the magical world of tabletop gaming, you need some amount of faith for science. That's pretty much what sorcerers do I suppose; without having studied magic in the way wizards do, they innately believe "If I hold this object while saying these words and making these gestures, magic happens". Perhaps they might believe that channeling the energy needed to turn undead is a form of spell.

[mabriss lethe]

{{scrubbed}}

Bald is also a hair color by that way of thinking.

That's all aside, prone to get people's dander up, and not terribly relevant to the OP.

The quick and dirty answer is "Ask your DM." In certain settings it will be much more likely to fly than in others. FR, for instance, would be a bad choice for an atheist cleric.

IMO, The best mechanics to make it playable are clerics of ideals or Archivists.

[Honjuden]

I am just going to leave this here.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/07/21/episode-579-little-miracles/

[Grams]

If your character dies not believing in a god, I'm pretty sure his soul gets splatted onto a wall of eternal suffering.

[DMVerdandi]

Yes.
You can venerate concepts. Like virtue and elements.
Gods are conscious agents which have power over certain domains.
One can respect these things without some level 40+ outsider regulating them.

Its about worship, not about what is being worshiped.
There is a community domain. I could worship the bonds that I get from friends and be empowered by that. That's right, classic blast of friendship and love incoming.

Community doesn't have to be shaped like a human being. In fact, it isn't. None of those domains are shaped like humans. They are what they are. Are there deities? Yes. Do you have to worship them? Nope.

[Drachasor]

This is pretty much just for laughs, but has anyone ever pulled off this concept work before? I'm not talking about clerics of ideals - those guys may not revere a specific deity, but they do at least believe that divinity is real. I'm referring to clerics who literally don't believe in the source of their spells and powers.

I don't think a Cleric of Ideals needs to believe in divinity.

Also, I would note that "god" is an ill-defined term. If you consider it to mean a being WORTHY of a worship, then an atheist Cleric could simply believe that no such being can exist. Since no being can deserve to have people worshipping it, the "gods" are just powerful extraplanar beings who are either parasitical or just enjoy having people debase themselves towards them.

[Feint's End]

Bald is also a hair color by that way of thinking.

Not really. And it is relevant to a certain degree to OP because the question is how OP sees Atheism. Generally there are two positions of Atheists:

1) God(s) and/or higher powers (Atheism isn't just about god anymore) do not exist.

2) I do not believe in God(s) and/or higher powers.

You see the first one makes it a a believe. You can't say for sure if or if not there is/are god(s). It's like saying there exist red bananas somewhere or probably a better example is Schroedingers cat. If you haven't opened the box you can't say with a 100% chance it exists or doesn't exist. Everything before is guessing or believing if you want to put it this way.

So it would be quite interesting which way of thinking OP means when saying Atheism. In a 3.P world the difference is probably very small though.

[Drachasor]

If your character dies not believing in a god, I'm pretty sure his soul gets splatted onto a wall of eternal suffering.

That's only in the Realms where Evil reigns supreme in the afterlife.


Not really. And it is relevant to a certain degree to OP because the question is how OP sees Atheism. Generally there are two positions of Atheists:

1) God(s) and/or higher powers (Atheism isn't just about god anymore) do not exist.

2) I do not believe in God(s) and/or higher powers.

You see the first one makes it a a believe. You can't say for sure if or if not there is/are god(s). It's like saying there exist red bananas somewhere or probably a better example is Schroedingers cat. If you haven't opened the box you can't say with a 100% chance it exists or doesn't exist. Everything before is guessing or believing if you want to put it this way.

Occan's razor is suggestive here. Regarding the cat, there's a pretty big difference between saying it may be alive or dead* and then going on to propose it has turned into an elephant....can't be sure until you open the box! But it is true that atheism covers both a lack of belief and active disbelief. Both can be consistent with a D&D setting however.

*Though Shroedinger actually proposed this thought experiment to point out an absurdity. We could probably spend a lot of time just talking about this.

[AuraTwilight]

Not really. And it is relevant to a certain degree to OP because the question is how OP sees Atheism. Generally there are two positions of Atheists:

1) God(s) and/or higher powers (Atheism isn't just about god anymore) do not exist.

2) I do not believe in God(s) and/or higher powers.

You see the first one makes it a a believe. You can't say for sure if or if not there is/are god(s). It's like saying there exist red bananas somewhere or probably a better example is Schroedingers cat. If you haven't opened the box you can't say with a 100% chance it exists or doesn't exist. Everything before is guessing or believing if you want to put it this way.

It's not a statement of faith to not believe something exists. If I have no proof of unicorns, I can say "Unicorns do not exist" without making a gesture of faith, because it's a conclusion I can reach based on evidence or the lack thereof. Faith, by definition, is a belief in something in SPITE of evidence.

[Drachasor]

It's not a statement of faith to not believe something exists. If I have no proof of unicorns, I can say "Unicorns do not exist" without making a gesture of faith, because it's a conclusion I can reach based on evidence or the lack thereof. Faith, by definition, is a belief in something in SPITE of evidence.

Faith is actually a complicated word. It can mean trust in something based on evidence as well, such as having faith in a friend or faith in the legal system. Mixing together different meanings of a word is one way to have a confused dialogue with someone. It's very easy to not even notice that's happening.

Anyhow, this is quickly venturing into political/religious talk. We should back off and focus on D&D as best we can.

[Maginomicon]

What you're looking for is the "Defiant" prestige class. They are explicitly anti-deity and assert that so strongly that they actually negate divine magic.

[Viros]

This sounds like a job for the Archivist, actually.

I'm currently playing an Archivist with a similar idea. She views deities as another manifestation of planar energies like any angel or demon, just more powerful. As a scholar of the divine she's well aware that deities are not omniscient or omnipotent, so she doesn't seem the point in worshiping them for the (significant, but finite) power they hold anymore than you would worship a President or Dean.

It doesn't sit well with her fellow priests, but she's never been particularly orthodox anyway.

[Omniplex]

Depends, mainly on your DM, but also on the setting. For instance, in Ebberon where the gods are nebulous and vague to begin with, sure. In the forgotten realms, where the gods and religion are an important part of the setting, and worshippers of Io can't cast spells, I would say no. For a cleric that did, I would say his/her powers are powered by faith in him/herself, or in magic. Or possibly by a god he or she doesn't believe in messing with said cleric because it amuses said deity.

[Vhaidara]

You can. And then someone like Olidamara comes down and uses your refusal to believe in gods to prank you like there is no tomorrow. Not sure how, but if anyone could, it would be Robert Downey Junior Olidamara

[Invader]

I'm not going to go into this there's since it's against the forum policy forms of it is not good point. Only the having some pseudostupidest forThat being atheism is anything like that (which is a basically theoretical form of atheism nobody I've everglade met (online or offline) actually subscribes to)

I'll be happy to discuss it more in PMs or on some other forum, but this is a point that really bugs me since it gets raised so much by people who either don't know what faith is or don't know what atheism is.

I'm with you on this one. As an atheist I don't feel my belief or "faith" that there are no forms of divine beings translates into me having some pseudo divinity. That being said I personally don't see how one could be an atheist in a fantasy setting like D&D and still have any kind of divine power.

This is compounded by the fact that in these settings there's hard proof that deities do exist so it'd be like saying you couldn't get sun burn because you don't believe in the sun.

[Gavinfoxx]

The term is "Maltheist", or if you want to use the TVTropes term, "Naythiest".

And you can certainly make a cleric of a belief system of Maltheism!!

[Drachasor]

This is compounded by the fact that in these settings there's hard proof that deities do exist so it'd be like saying you couldn't get sun burn because you don't believe in the sun.

There's hard proof that powerful extraplanar entities exist that grant power if you worship them. One might dispute that they are gods, either because they are not worthy of worship or for some other reason.

[Evandar]

Firstly, some of the discussion above has skirted dangerously close to getting everyone mercilessly executed by the powers that be.

Secondly, there are probably a few ways that you could have an atheistic cleric.

a ) You can draw divine power from concepts and causes instead of gods if I recall correctly.

b ) The cleric could be from a religion that is actually atheistic. (Like some versions of -- can I even name real world religions here? I'm not even going to chance it.)

The problem is that clerics have access to a wide variety of methods to actually confirm that a god exists, going so far as to speak with them. Assuming this cleric isn't going to be a bit of a lunatic and insist he's having constant hallucinations, he's going to be forced to declare the god he is speaking to isn't a god and instead just a massively powerful entity.

That doesn't actually make him an atheist (because he believes in the existence of the things he's talking to), he just thinks he is an atheist because he's using a different definition of god from everyone else. This isn't a big deal, really, since it'd certainly allow him to RP an atheist, but I am not sure if you want him to actually disbelieve in deities as presented by D&D altogether.

I can't redefine 'gravity' to mean 'unicorns' personally and then state 'I don't believe in gravity(unicorns)'. What I mean to everyone else is totally different from what I'm actually saying.

[Naanomi]

I'm sure you have clerics out there dedicated to philosophical principals that have little to do with Gods... a 'Buddhism like' religion can generate Clerics, not just Monks :smalltongue:

On a related note, I've always wanted to try a Defiant 10/Ur-Priest 10 build with a 'Gods are just big Outsiders, see me copy their "miracles" ' vibe.

[Talya]

Good point. Atheism is a faith in and itself.

Much like not-collecting-stamps is a hobby.

[MeiLeTeng]

Not really. And it is relevant to a certain degree to OP because the question is how OP sees Atheism. Generally there are two positions of Atheists:

1) God(s) and/or higher powers (Atheism isn't just about god anymore) do not exist.

2) I do not believe in God(s) and/or higher powers.

You see the first one makes it a a believe. You can't say for sure if or if not there is/are god(s). It's like saying there exist red bananas somewhere or probably a better example is Schroedingers cat. If you haven't opened the box you can't say with a 100% chance it exists or doesn't exist. Everything before is guessing or believing if you want to put it this way.

So it would be quite interesting which way of thinking OP means when saying Atheism. In a 3.P world the difference is probably very small though.



Ignoring the part of the post that's likely going to cause problems. You realize that red bananas are totally a thing right?

[Divide by Zero]

How about a cleric who believes that the self is the ultimate authority? In other words, a cleric that draws power from their faith in themselves. Could be interesting in a philosophically-inclined group.

[Evandar]

Ignoring the part of the post that's likely going to cause problems. You realize that red bananas are totally a thing right?

My mind = blown. That was hilarious.

[MukkTB]

Atheism is a firm belief that divine stuff doesn't exist. It's actually a belief because it makes a statement about the world that can't be proven and it commits to it.

Agnosticism is much more the opposite of religion. It doesn't commit to anything. It doesn't believe in god or in no god or whatever. It doesn't care, and that's a lot more poisonous to belief than a firmly thinking that no gods exist.

There are religions on earth today that don't believe in gods per say. That gives us two things.

#1 You can have a religion that includes spiritual beliefs without invoking gods.

#2 As these people believe in their thing, its unreasonable (politically incorrect?) to deny that they kind of belief would let them be a cleric in D&D.

So you can get a cleric that doesn't believe in gods. But that's not the question. The question is, can you get a cleric that doesn't believe in divine magic? I think the answer is yes.

For example:
I believe in honor to a fanatical degree. I also don't believe in or actively disbelieve in divinity.

I still qualify for being a cleric because of my devotion to an ideal. In a typical D&D world I also qualify for being an idiot because divine magic is everywhere. It would have to be a very low magic setting for my belief to be legit.

The problem is that while I could take levels in Cleric, I would either be a Cleric that didn't cast spells because I didn't think I could, or I would learn that divine magic did in fact exist. The third alternative is that I'm a caster Cleric who is raving mad.


You could make a cleric out of a scientist who believed in Science as his ideal. That seems legit within the rules. There are even small gods that cater to the belief in science. He could believe that divine magic is a real phenomena but that it was all just smoke and mirrors with a rational scientific reason behind it. Maybe he believes in advanced aliens or something. The more he believed in that, the stronger his tie to divine magic would be.


Just believe man. Just gotta believe in something. Anything. And pass the joint.

[Randomocity132]

Not really. And it is relevant to a certain degree to OP because the question is how OP sees Atheism. Generally there are two positions of Atheists:

1) God(s) and/or higher powers (Atheism isn't just about god anymore) do not exist.

2) I do not believe in God(s) and/or higher powers.

You see the first one makes it a a believe. You can't say for sure if or if not there is/are god(s). It's like saying there exist red bananas somewhere or probably a better example is Schroedingers cat. If you haven't opened the box you can't say with a 100% chance it exists or doesn't exist. Everything before is guessing or believing if you want to put it this way.

So it would be quite interesting which way of thinking OP means when saying Atheism. In a 3.P world the difference is probably very small though.

You might want to open mouth, insert foot.


Atheism is a firm belief that divine stuff doesn't exist. It's actually a belief because it makes a statement about the world that can't be proven and it commits to it.

Agnosticism is much more the opposite of religion. It doesn't commit to anything. It doesn't believe in god or in no god or whatever. It doesn't care, and that's a lot more poisonous to belief than a firmly thinking that no gods exist.



This is also entirely false.

[ryu]

Gnosticism-Agnosticism and Theism-Atheism are two different sets of opposites. Gnostics believe you can have knowledge on the subject of whether or not a god or gods exist. Agnostics do not. Theists believe a god or gods exist. Atheists do not. You can have a Gnostic Atheist or an Agnostic Atheist. You can have a Gnostic Theist or an Agnostic Theist. Hell you can even have Atheists who divide divine concepts placed before them into sets like unknowable, knowable but not yet verified with evidence, or demonstrably false in the case of god concepts said to live on the surface of the planet from any point in history.

[MukkTB]

{{Scrubbed}}

[kardar233]

I am just going to leave this here.
http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/07/21/episode-579-little-miracles/

I believe expect that this strip (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/08/11/episode-585-a-lofty-goal/) is more relevant.

[Rubik]

Good point. Atheism is a faith in and itself.Um...no. It's kind of the antithesis, actually.

[Angelmaker]

Good point. Atheism is a faith in and itself.

Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position. Quoted from bill Maher.

In a religious position "faith" makes you believe in a God without proof - you have to "take it on faith". In Atheism you conform to the reality of evidence. So far, no evidence for a god is found, thus atheists lack faith.

In before you can't disproof god: neither can you proof a god or disproof the flying spaghetti monster.
In before fine tuning arguments: some forces of the cosmological constant could be off by a factor of thousand and still work essentially the same.
Yadda yadda, more could be said about all those so called "scientific evidence".

Don't want to start a real world religious discussion due to board rules, but if you think Atheism is a faith, you don't understand Atheism itself very well. You do not "belief in Atheism".

Kind regards.

Edit: on topic: IMHO atheist clerics do not work. Atheists need/want proof for a hypothesis. In a world with D&D style magic, proof is abundant. THe best you could do is to have a cleric with a streak of natural philosopher inside him asking essentially "what if we would life in a world without gods". But I am pretty sure you can see the problems with that in itself if your god decides to zap you one morning because he does not find your ideas amusing. There is a book by terry pratchett which deals with philosopher's doubting the Gods and they chime in on their conversation. Really good read. I think it is called "small gods".

[Metahuman1]

I believe expect that this strip (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/08/11/episode-585-a-lofty-goal/) is more relevant.

1: The above.

2: Play in Eberron

3: The self idea totally works RAW except in Forgotten Realms. As does the "I so strongly believe there not gods/don't exist that it gives me power!" idea.

4: Neitheries if you in Forgotten Realms.

5: If all else fails, Ur-priest.

[Taklinn]

Sort of a spin-off, but I always sorta thought a great backstory for a ur-priest theurge character type would be an arcane disciple of a god who died off due to lack of worshippers and then became totally disenchanted/jaded with gods and so began siphoning their power from their clerics.

[Evandar]

Atheists need/want proof for a hypothesis. In a world with D&D style magic, proof is abundant.

I think that's the crux of the matter here. A cleric has extensive access to proof regarding the existence of deities. He'd have to be quite unreasonable to be an atheist.

[Rubik]

I think that's the crux of the matter here. A cleric has extensive access to proof regarding the existence of deities. He'd have to be quite unreasonable to be an atheist.Part of the problem is that both ur-priests and clerics of an ideal get the same divine spells, as do rangers, divine bards, certain variants of wizards, archivists, artificers, and any spell-to-power erudite who really wants them, and none of those need to worship some more-powerful-than-most outsider.

Who's to say whether Pelor is actually a deific being or just some really powerful, evil fire being who subsists on false worship?

[Divide by Zero]

I think that's the crux of the matter here. A cleric has extensive access to proof regarding the existence of deities. He'd have to be quite unreasonable to be an atheist.

I think that the best way to play an atheist cleric (outside of a setting like Eberron, at least) would be to regard the gods as something that shouldn't be worshipped. Perhaps you don't believe in the concept of divinity and just see the gods as exceptionally powerful beings (probably the best way to play a "true" atheist) with the spells they ostensibly grant instead coming from the belief itself, or you think they're doing such a crappy job with their portfolios that they don't deserve your worship (in other words, a misotheist), or something like that.

[Somensjev]

you could always have an atheistic cleric who is still powered by the gods, just say one of the gods thinks it's cute that they're not believed it

(sort of like my signature, but with divine spells instead of UMD)

[Naanomi]

The DC Superhero Mr. Terrific is an Atheist. When people call him on it (some of his team-mates have been Gods in the past) he notes that he also has alien friends who can beat up those 'Gods' pretty easily so maybe they are just better thought of as a certain flavor of Extra-Dimensional being and not labelled with the baggage the title 'God' tends to bring with it.

I could imagine someone in a DnD setting with a similar attitude; since many beings can grant powers the same way (Warlock, Binder, etc) and Gods have died to things as silly as well-prepared and lucky mortals in the past

[Duke of Urrel]

We all need to leave both real-world theism and real-world atheism well out of this discussion, because neither one applies to D&D.

An atheist cleric, if your DM allows it to exist, must be devoted to the cause of atheism, or perhaps to skepticism or disbelief in general. Such a cleric would not turn undead by the power of some deity, but by the power of declaring that like all deities, undead do not exist – or should not exist, because they violate the laws of nature (which in the world of D&D are properly arcane, not divine). Instead of prayer, this cleric would spend time meditating contemptuously upon the absurdity of divine magic with no deities. But with enough faith in the almighty power of holy doubt, this cleric might even cast high-level cleric spells – such as the Commune spell – by the strength of denial that such a thing could possibly work.

And if you think this is easy, think again! Every time you perform a feat like this, it's much, much harder to perform it the next time, because your success in performing quasi-miraculous deeds may lead you to doubt your doubt, or to become skeptical about your skepticism. You can succeed again only by denying with all your heart – excuse me, with all your cerebral cortex and limbic system – that such a thing can ever happen again. Only a true cleric of atheism can manage this, because only this cleric has such powerful contempt for the notion that any kind of divinity exists that he or she can draw real divine magic from this contempt itself. So it should be possible for atheist clerics to lose their divine powers by failing to be properly skeptical, and good luck finding a fellow disbelieving cleric to cast the Atonement spell for you!

An atheist cleric could have any possible alignment, and as a cleric of this kind, you might even be strongly devoted to whatever alignment you happen to have. However, more important to you than this would be the fervent belief that your alignment is the result of a rational, independent decision, which cannot possibly have been influenced by some nonexistent deity.

I don't believe the actually-existing gods of the world of D&D should care much about atheists, and they should care even less about atheist clerics, who can only be extremely rare. The various gods are rather more concerned about clerics who pick sides in their struggle against each other. Of course, those gods who are opposed to an atheist cleric's alignment will hate him or her as much as any other cleric of this alignment.

Again, let's please not comment on what real-world atheists are or ought to be. But I will say this: In the world of D&D, an atheist cleric must practice atheism in pretty much the same way as a theist cleric practices theism, or I can't see how it would work.

[Randomocity132]

In short Athiesm is a hard rejection of god, the divine, etc, Agnosticism is throwing one's hands in the air and giving up on the question.


In short you can argue that there are only two states, not three, but you lose a great deal of descriptive ability to differentiate between militant atheists and people who don't care. My philosophy might not be the only one that people agree on, but it is definitely shared by big names and can't be dismissed out of hand as false without some supporting argument.
I do truly despise self-proclaimed agnostics who look down on the atheist's position and view it as faith based, while also failing to realize that they are an atheist as well, by definition.



But I'd prefer to keep to the topic of the OP. I'd allow it, but I'd need justification. The delusion of thinking he's an arcane caster would work for me. Or perhaps him simply being a cleric that's more focused on the concepts of his domains than of there being any gods, and he's agnostic atheistic.



An atheist cleric, if your DM allows it to exist, must be devoted to the cause of atheism, or perhaps to skepticism or disbelief in general. Such a cleric would not turn undead by the power of some deity, but by the power of declaring that like all deities, undead do not exist – or should not exist, because they violate the laws of nature (which in the world of D&D are properly arcane, not divine). Instead of prayer, this cleric would spend time meditating contemptuously upon the absurdity of divine magic with no deities. But with enough faith in the almighty power of holy doubt, this cleric might even cast high-level cleric spells – such as the Commune spell – by the strength of denial that such a thing could possibly work.


I think this is a hilarious and awesome prospect.

[MukkTB]

For that matter, as a player I don't believe D&D gods are anything special. I mean its obvious to us as players that the in game 'gods' don't have much to do with the creation of a D&D verse. That power belongs in the hands of the DM, the setting's authors and the game designers. As far as I'm concerned D&D gods are big outsiders who depend on or want worship. They tend to lead their respective causes. They have over-inflated egos. And you shouldn't stat them or the players will kill them.

[Vanitas]

This sounds like a job for the Archivist, actually.

This. So much this.

[Marlowe]

This is pretty much just for laughs, but has anyone ever pulled off this concept work before? I'm not talking about clerics of ideals - those guys may not revere a specific deity, but they do at least believe that divinity is real. I'm referring to clerics who literally don't believe in the source of their spells and powers.

I can perhaps imagine a cleric who thinks he is an arcane caster but in reality is getting his spells from a divine source. I can't think of a way to rationalize him knowing how to turn undead, though. Anyone here have any thoughts?

I had an NPC Cleric of Atheism that worshipped impersonal natural forces the existence of which could be confirmed through simple empirical observation.

He had Weather and Fire Domains, I think.

[Red Rubber Band]

This sounds like a job for the Archivist, actually.

At the risk of being "Low OP", why not Favored Soul? I'm surprised no one has mentioned it.


Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position. Quoted from bill Maher.

In a religious position "faith" makes you believe in a God without proof - you have to "take it on faith". In Atheism you conform to the reality of evidence. So far, no evidence for a god is found, thus atheists lack faith.

In before you can't disproof god: neither can you proof a god or disproof the flying spaghetti monster.
In before fine tuning arguments: some forces of the cosmological constant could be off by a factor of thousand and still work essentially the same.
Yadda yadda, more could be said about all those so called "scientific evidence".

Don't want to start a real world religious discussion due to board rules, but if you think Atheism is a faith, you don't understand Atheism itself very well. You do not "belief in Atheism".

Kind regards.

Edit: on topic: IMHO atheist clerics do not work. Atheists need/want proof for a hypothesis. In a world with D&D style magic, proof is abundant. THe best you could do is to have a cleric with a streak of natural philosopher inside him asking essentially "what if we would life in a world without gods". But I am pretty sure you can see the problems with that in itself if your god decides to zap you one morning because he does not find your ideas amusing. There is a book by terry pratchett which deals with philosopher's doubting the Gods and they chime in on their conversation. Really good read. I think it is called "small gods".

For someone not wanting to start a real world religious discussion you did have a lot to say. Oh so much I want to reply to.

Edit:

An atheist cleric, if your DM allows it to exist, must be devoted to the cause of atheism, or perhaps to skepticism or disbelief in general.

This just got me thinking. What about having a secular religion, instead of supernatural belief, as a basis? Like Nationalism? I draw power from my Country! (Has probably been put forth, but I've continuously been derailed from this thread by RL)

[Divide by Zero]

At the risk of being "Low OP", why not Favored Soul? I'm surprised no one has mentioned it.

Favored Souls are explicitly required to worship a deity (they're a "favored soul" of that deity).

[Rubik]

An atheist cleric, if your DM allows it to exist, must be devoted to the cause of atheism, or perhaps to skepticism or disbelief in general.Why? Why do I have to devote myself to atheism as a cleric and not some other ideal if I'm an atheist? Why can't I believe in science or nature or weather or fire or family and really devote myself to those in order to receive inspiration?

Artificially restricting a cleric who happens to be an atheist to "the ideal of atheism" is unreasonable when you can gain your powers from any ideal you devote yourself to.

[Red Rubber Band]

Favored Souls are explicitly required to worship a deity (they're a "favored soul" of that deity).

Noooo. I believe this argument happened a month or two ago.
Favored Souls can worship a different god from the one that bestows up them their power. Edit: Or not worship anyone at all. /endedit

I'll have to find it later tonight. Though if someone that actually was a part of that thread could tell me if I'm misremembering or not...

[Divide by Zero]

Noooo. I believe this argument happened a month or two ago.
Favored Souls can worship a different god from the one that bestows up them their power. Edit: Or not worship anyone at all. /endedit

I'll have to find it later tonight. Though if someone that actually was a part of that thread could tell me if I'm misremembering or not...

Didn't see that thread, but Complete Divine is pretty clear.

Unlike clerics, favored souls are not able to devote themselves to a cause or a source of divine power instead of a deity.

[TypoNinja]

I think that's the crux of the matter here. A cleric has extensive access to proof regarding the existence of deities. He'd have to be quite unreasonable to be an atheist.

This kind of highlights the problem of an interventionalist pantheon like you see in D&D.

Its not really Faith anymore when you have proof. D&D clerics don't Believe in their God, they Know.

Furthermore in realities where magic is real, how does your average peasant tell the difference between a 20+ level spellcaster and a God? In terms of relative power levels its not so clear cut. From your average peon's point of view either one is all knowing, never seems to die, and can level kingdoms if they so choose.

Atheism in these circumstances wouldn't center around the debate of the actual existence of these entities, but rather on their claims of Divinity. Anybody with Plane Shift go can visit Pelor, the existence of that entity with that name isn't in doubt, neither would his powers. But how does one demonstrate Godhood without resorting to OOC metrics like divine rank?

[Avigor]

This is pretty much just for laughs, but has anyone ever pulled off this concept work before? I'm not talking about clerics of ideals - those guys may not revere a specific deity, but they do at least believe that divinity is real. I'm referring to clerics who literally don't believe in the source of their spells and powers.

I can perhaps imagine a cleric who thinks he is an arcane caster but in reality is getting his spells from a divine source. I can't think of a way to rationalize him knowing how to turn undead, though. Anyone here have any thoughts?

The first thing that popped into my mind on reading this: The Athar.

They are atheistic, after all. Or at least they perceive the "deities" as merely super-powered, Epic or beyond creatures that, while difficult to stop from going out of control, are no omnipotent.

[Rubik]

This kind of highlights the problem of an interventionalist pantheon like you see in D&D.

Its not really Faith anymore when you have proof. D&D clerics don't Believe in their God, they Know.

Furthermore in realities where magic is real, how does your average peasant tell the difference between a 20+ level spellcaster and a God? In terms of relative power levels its not so clear cut. From your average peon's point of view either one is all knowing, never seems to die, and can level kingdoms if they so choose.

Atheism in these circumstances wouldn't center around the debate of the actual existence of these entities, but rather on their claims of Divinity. Anybody with Plane Shift go can visit Pelor, the existence of that entity with that name isn't in doubt, neither would his powers. But how does one demonstrate Godhood without resorting to OOC metrics like divine rank?+1,111,111

[BeerMug Paladin]

You do realize that faith and atheism is two-sides of the same coin? Just because you believe in no deities/gods doesn't mean you have no faith. You have faith in your belief nothing exists, only science or whatever reasoning floats your boat. So in that sense, he/she would believe in the deity of nothingless... that could "dispel" undead of other deity powers.
I know other people have said this, but as an atheist, I have to say I disagree.

I'd prefer not to elaborate on the matter, though, as it violates forum rules and is a derail from the topic.

[TheThan]

I once based an entire campaign off the idea of a godless cleric.

[The Giant]

This thread is riddled with references to real-world religious (or in this case, non-religious) beliefs. Thread locked.