A fool Breaking Down UberCharge stuff (A RAW approach to fickle MCHNC rulings)

[GhengisConrad]

So, the relative 'need' to use shock trooper and some kind of multiplier, has me looking at said multipliers. Person_Man handsomely has put together a great list and guide on said tactics here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087

By which I would like to look at these:

Damage from Power Attack can be greatly increased via:

Leap Attack: Increases Power Attack ration on Charge if you can make an easy Jump check. Can't be combined with mounted Charge. Complete Adventurer.
Lance: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. Remember that you can use it two handed, or with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting and Pounce. Also a reach weapon, which is pretty much a requirement for many melee builds. PHB.
Spirited Charge: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. PHB.
Riding Boots: Unnamed bonus to Ride, and if you have Spirited Charge you further multiply your damage when you Charge. DMGII pg 270.
Centaur: Multiplies damage on a Charge as a racial ability. Use Polymorph or something similar. Monster Manual.
Headlong Rush: Multiplies damage on any Charge, but provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone who threatens you (including your target). This can be avoided with a reach weapon. Or it can be used to your advantage with a King of Smack Karmic Strike/Vampiric Claws combo. Player's Guide to Faerun.
Rhino's Rush (Pal 2): Immediate Action spell. Multiplies damage on a Charge. If necessary, make a Wand, and put it in a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape pg 34). Spell Compendium.
Battle Jump: Multiplies damage on a Charge if you drop from at least 10 feet above your enemy - which can be done with a moderately high Jump check, or by attacking from higher ground. Unapproachable East.
Valorous weapon enhancement: Multiplies damage on a Charge. Unapproachable East.
Frenzied Berserker: Gets a higher Power Attack multiplier, but comes with a lot of potential issues (like killing all of your party members). Complete Warrior.
Anything with a good critical hit range or multiplier. Given the existence of the Scabbard of Keen Edges, I personally never bother with the Keen enhancement or wasting a feat on Improved Critical when there are so many other better options for feats. But this is debatable. PHB/DMG.
Most things that add extra attacks will also greatly increase your damage output when combined with Power Attack (including natural attacks).
Dragonborn (wings option) or Raptorian with 12 HD or more can fly, and make a diving charge attack with a piercing weapon that deals double damage.




and break down item by item the RAW text, and ask some silly childish questions to which the answer is probably "you are horribly misunderstanding the rules. GTFO kid. And take your helmet and sippy cup with you"

Mostly the questions is implied to be "how is this so much better than simply poucing?"

Also, if you are depending on riding a mount to be so cool, well that is one thing, but for purposes of breaking down 1v1 benefits, we are going to assume there are no mounts.

Again, if the answer is "kid, don't you realize everyone and their mother uses a mount", maybe I am a fool, and I can accept this. I wanna keep variables separate in an analysis here, so we are dealing with just a guy just by himself.

Leap Attack
It says right there that you can't combine it with charge. Probably from this RAW:
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge

Normal Rules, this mean, you can't slap a pounce for full attack or jump attack from double damage.

Headlong Rush
Again, language is like a variant onto the charge, which means other things that normally require a charge... don't work with this. Even if they do, it say a successful attack deals double damage. Not, attacks.

Battle Jump
This is almost impossible to use without a mount, or without a rather specific situation. It doesn't change the amount of time needed for a charge, so good luck being able to execute a full attack action from directly above

Frenzied Berserker

Here is one that may be worth it, if you wanna dip that far. But it doesn't stack with power attack, and isn't, in fact power attack, so you can't use Shock Trooper with it.

Dive Attack

"A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line."

like a charge but... this sounds like another variant, so you can't tack on valorous, pounce or anything.

Weapon Enhancements

Meh... if you can have any kind of special weapon you want... I guess there is a way to break that. But in the games I play, you don't really get to pick your items.

[EugeneVoid]

Little Red Raiding Hood

[Irk]

headlong rush: x2
valorous (on amulet of natural attacks): x2
Rhino's Rush (wand then drop, swift + free): x2
battle jump + leap attack: x3 power attack damage
Frenzied berserker 5: x3 power attack damage
SHOCK TROOPER: AC penalty instead of to-hit penalty

try a lion totem barbarian 1/ frenzied berserker 5 / totemist 2 / fighter 4 and get sphinx claws, open least chakra (hands) and double chakra (sphinx claws). Now you have effectively double pounce and a BAB of +11/+6/+1. With a high strength and some other to-hit increases, as well as flaws to accommodate all thee feats you could do -15 power attack (thanks to frenzied berserker). then, when you charge, you deal 15 x 6 per attack, not counting strength at all. you have 3 attacks. that's 270 flat damage. Not really that good. May need more things for feats, I'm not sure.
I DO have a really good shadowpouncer I whipped up in like thirty seconds a while ago, let me see if I can find it...

Here we go! deals over 3000 damage per round. I get the idea that you are not infatuated with ubercharging, Ghengis, so this may tickle your fancy

As a quick idea, try
totemist 2 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / warrior of darkness 1 / Swordsage 10
Grab multi attack and belt of battle and some anklets of translocation

This will give you three very important things
-Shadow Pounce
-Girallon arms to totem chakra
-that move action teleport

full attack w/ 9 attacks
2 full attacks on move action teleport (shadow Pounce and the warrior of darkness ability)
3 move action teleports 3/day (from belt of battle) (otherwise its just 2)
full attack on the translocation teleport

this'll give you (18 x 3) + 9 attacks per round

that's 63 attacks per round
grab assassin's stance and some sneak attack boosting items, let say it goes up to +5d6 sneak attack, reasonable w/ necklace of natural attacks and other items

this'll deal 1d4 + 5d6 per attack

or, in total 63d4 + 513d6
average of 1952.5 damage each round, easily takes anything out.

wraithstrike wand chamber could be on an animated shield

EDIT: I forgot about the bite attack. that's 70 attacks/round.
Crinti shadow marauder gives +2d6 sudden strike, assassin's stance gives +2d6 sneak attack, deadly weapon an amulet of natural attacks is another +1d6, bracers of the hunter is another +1d6, Rogue's vest is ANOTHER +1d6
Craven feat gives+20
This adds up to each attack dealing 1d4+7d6+20
70d4+490d6+1400
average of 3290 damage per round

hope this helps.

EDIT: Never mind, look at this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1659301), as suggested by EugeneVoid, did not realize it was without pounce. That link ahs exactly the type of build you are looking for. Also, maybe take a look at the warhulking hurler and this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0) monstrosity tha gets over one million attacks/round.

[OldTrees1]

Sidenote:
Dragonborn and Raptorian gain Ex Flight(not merely glide) at 6HD and 5HD respectively. No need to wait till 12HD. At 12HD they can fly without worrying about fatigue.

Second Sidenote:
The Rules Compendium pg27 is the primary rules source for Charge

"Dive Attack" is detailed under the "Flying During a Charge" section in the "Charge" chapter. As such it qualifies as a Charge. Usually these are restricted to Claw/Talon attacks but Dragonborn and Raptorian expand the list of valid weapons.

The section "Jumping During a Charge" explicitly permits jumping during a charge. There are similar sections for Balance and Tumble altohugh Balance suffers a penalty from your increased speed.

[GhengisConrad]

headlong rush: x2
valorous (on amulet of natural attacks): x2
Rhino's Rush (wand then drop, swift + free): x2
battle jump + leap attack: x3 power attack damage
Frenzied berserker 5: x3 power attack damage
SHOCK TROOPER: AC penalty instead of to-hit penalty

try a lion totem barbarian 1/ frenzied berserker 5 / totemist 2 / fighter 4 and get sphinx claws, open least chakra (hands) and double chakra (sphinx claws). Now you have effectively double pounce and a BAB of +11/+6/+1. With a high strength and some other to-hit increases, as well as flaws to accommodate all thee feats you could do -15 power attack (thanks to frenzied berserker). then, when you charge, you deal 15 x 6 per attack, not counting strength at all. you have 3 attacks. that's 270 flat damage. Not really that good. May need more things for feats, I'm not sure.
I DO have a really good shadowpouncer I whipped up in like thirty seconds a while ago, let me see if I can find it...

Here we go! deals over 3000 damage per round. I get the idea that you are not infatuated with ubercharging, Ghengis, so this may tickle your fancy

As a quick idea, try
totemist 2 / Crinti Shadow Marauder 5 / warrior of darkness 1 / Swordsage 10
Grab multi attack and belt of battle and some anklets of translocation

This will give you three very important things
-Shadow Pounce
-Girallon arms to totem chakra
-that move action teleport

full attack w/ 9 attacks
2 full attacks on move action teleport (shadow Pounce and the warrior of darkness ability)
3 move action teleports 3/day (from belt of battle) (otherwise its just 2)
full attack on the translocation teleport

this'll give you (18 x 3) + 9 attacks per round

that's 63 attacks per round
grab assassin's stance and some sneak attack boosting items, let say it goes up to +5d6 sneak attack, reasonable w/ necklace of natural attacks and other items

this'll deal 1d4 + 5d6 per attack

or, in total 63d4 + 513d6
average of 1952.5 damage each round, easily takes anything out.

wraithstrike wand chamber could be on an animated shield

EDIT: I forgot about the bite attack. that's 70 attacks/round.
Crinti shadow marauder gives +2d6 sudden strike, assassin's stance gives +2d6 sneak attack, deadly weapon an amulet of natural attacks is another +1d6, bracers of the hunter is another +1d6, Rogue's vest is ANOTHER +1d6
Craven feat gives+20
This adds up to each attack dealing 1d4+7d6+20
70d4+490d6+1400
average of 3290 damage per round

hope this helps.

EDIT: Never mind, look at this (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1659301), as suggested by EugeneVoid, did not realize it was without pounce. That link ahs exactly the type of build you are looking for. Also, maybe take a look at the warhulking hurler and this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0) monstrosity tha gets over one million attacks/round.

I appreciate you looking all that up for me!

I don't care for builds that need cohorts or npcs, as they tend to screw me over in our campaigns. It's the way we play.

I started making shadow pounce builds.. I got tired of hamstringing my builds for/to achieving it.

See, what I can't stand is being pound to few options, and I'm trying to cut the legs out from underneath the uberchargers.

For me the challenge is to have a competitive build, that doesn't rely on items or other characters or spells that get used up.

See the link about my personal play style. That's how it is done at my table.

This: http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1659301

has some potential.. though I see battle jump and I almost gaurantee he is using a different ruling than I do.

[GhengisConrad]

"Dive Attack" is detailed under the "Flying During a Charge" section in the "Charge" chapter. As such it qualifies as a Charge. Usually these are restricted to Claw/Talon attacks but Dragonborn and Raptorian expand the list of valid weapons.


So if my anthrobat dives during his charge, his whole pounce gets doubled eh?

[OldTrees1]

So if my anthrobat dives during his charge, his whole pounce gets doubled eh?

No. If you were a Dragonborn/Raptorian then all your piercing weapons would be doubled damage. If you have flight by are not Dragonborn/Raptorian then only Claws/Talons have double damage.

[Irk]

@ Ghengis, Just as some advice, I've been looking at a lot of your threads and you seem to be focusing on a lot of melee beatdown builds, though admittedly all with different themes. Just as some general advice, take a look at these builds (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3670571), they are ALL pretty awesome, and have a wide variety of roles. Some may even help you with further development of melee tactics.

[Thiyr]

As far as the leap attack/headlong rush/dive attack thing goes, I'd say pounce works with each of them. diving has already been covered above. Quoted below are what i feel are the relevant bits, emphasis is mine.


When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.


You can combine a jump with a charge...This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the jump skill and for making a charge


Instead of a normal charge, you can perform a headlong rush. A headlong rush is a charge that provokes...


While the first part of headlong rush would indicate that it is incompatible with leap attack, it should work just fine with pounce (headlong rush is a charge, pounce is a modifier to a charge). Similarly, leap attack says you use the normal rules for charging, but pouncing is a separate matter entirely. It is added onto a normal charge. A normal charge is still occurring, it is just proccing the pounce effect.

That all said, I'd say the only thing that the only real "need" for melee is some kind of mobility while you're full attacking. Pounce or swift/free action movement are necessity. multipliers/shock trooper are just gravy IME. There's enough ways to get damage that you don't need that unless you're really hungry for some overkill.

Omnomnom overkill.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, the relative 'need' to use shock trooper and some kind of multiplier, has me looking at said multipliers. Person_Man handsomely has put together a great list and guide on said tactics here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087

By which I would like to look at these <-snip-> and break down item by item the RAW text, and ask some silly childish questions to which the answer is probably "you are horribly misunderstanding the rules. GTFO kid. And take your helmet and sippy cup with you"

Mostly the questions is implied to be "how is this so much better than simply poucing?"

Also, if you are depending on riding a mount to be so cool, well that is one thing, but for purposes of breaking down 1v1 benefits, we are going to assume there are no mounts.

Again, if the answer is "kid, don't you realize everyone and their mother uses a mount", maybe I am a fool, and I can accept this. I wanna keep variables separate in an analysis here, so we are dealing with just a guy just by himself.

Okay, let's do this thing.


Leap Attack
It says right there that you can't combine it with charge. Probably from this RAW:
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge

Normal Rules, this mean, you can't slap a pounce for full attack or jump attack from double damage.

Jumping during a charge is something you can do anyway since jumping is part of another movement and charging is a form of movement. As for the normal rules of charging, the comment about following the normal rules isn't a command against modifying the charge in other ways but a reminder that you still must have a straight, unobstructed line to the target and must move at least 10 feet. Leap attack adds the caveat that you must also perform a jump that's at least 10 feet to gain its benefits and pounce modifies the attack at the end by replacing it with a full attack. Since leap attack modifies power attack rather than the charge attack itself it applies to the entire full attack -and- to any AoO's that the character might make before his next turn.


Headlong Rush
Again, language is like a variant onto the charge, which means other things that normally require a charge... don't work with this. Even if they do, it say a successful attack deals double damage. Not, attacks.

While there -may- be something to the point that headlong rush specifies an attack rather than multiple attacks it's still a charge; a modified charge but a charge nonetheless.


Battle Jump
This is almost impossible to use without a mount, or without a rather specific situation. It doesn't change the amount of time needed for a charge, so good luck being able to execute a full attack action from directly above

Battle Jump is probably best ignored. It's too poorly worded for the community to come to any sort of agreement as to exactly how it works and what is or is not a valid trigger for the effect.


Frenzied Berserker

Here is one that may be worth it, if you wanna dip that far. But it doesn't stack with power attack, and isn't, in fact power attack, so you can't use Shock Trooper with it.

This works quite nicely. Improved and supreme power attack are still power attack, it's just modified. The problem here is more the baggage that comes with the PA boosts. Frenzied Berserker is a class for skilled players only because of the danger it poses to the party in a wide variety of situations and the difficulty of getting past that without leaving a gaping flaw in its defenses.


Dive Attack

"A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line."

like a charge but... this sounds like another variant, so you can't tack on valorous, pounce or anything.

You -may- be right about this. "Works like a charge" is not "is a charge."


Weapon Enhancements

Meh... if you can have any kind of special weapon you want... I guess there is a way to break that. But in the games I play, you don't really get to pick your items.

That's honestly kind of a red flag. Impeding melees from getting the gear they need in communities of sufficient size is a kind of stealth nerf to classes that really don't need to be nerfed in the first place. Especially since casters can pick up the craft feats and get whatever they want as long as they can find the free time to make it.

Have you considered taking a dip in battlesmith for craft arms and armor and asking your resident casters to prepare the requisite spells on days that you're crafting?

[GhengisConrad]

So...

be a dragonborn frenzied berzerker with headlong rush, leap attack and a valorous keen lance?

Is that what I am hearing?

[OldTrees1]

So...

be a dragonborn frenzied berzerker with headlong rush, leap attack and a valorous keen lance?

Is that what I am hearing?

Make sure that you pass the DC 40 jump check starting from 40ft away. (Required for the 10ft decline of Dive Attack and the Jump of Leap Attack)

If your goal is merely lots of damage then that is a good set (assuming no mount). However I would seriously question using Frenzied Berserker (requires maintenance not to kill party) or Headlong Rush (Attacks of Opportunity can make you stall)

[Dread_Head]

Stick Valorous on a Halberd of Vaulting from the AEG p109 instead. +30 untyped to jump and adds vaulting charge: double damage if you make a jump at least 5ft high during the charge. Or strip the of Vaulting part of its ability off and add it to the weapon of your choice (comes to 12,000gp without the +2 halberd it's normally attached to.

I want to play a charger Thri-kreen wielding one some day, +30 racial to jump, +30 untyped, +4 from 40ft speed and then ranks and strength allow you to make the 40ft jumps from stationary with ease and it should be possible to literally hop everywhere.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So...

be a dragonborn frenzied berzerker with headlong rush, leap attack and a valorous keen lance?

Is that what I am hearing?

Dive attacks aren't necessarily charges so I don't know that dragonborn is necessary though it's as good a way as any to get flight.

Frenzied Berserker is something you should discuss with your party before you go with it. I wasn't kidding about it being a class for advanced players.

The valorous weapon is definitely a thing to get, but a lance is only getting a multiplier if you're mounted so you might consider some other weapon if you're not going to be mounted.

Here's some numbers to consider:

Barbarian 7, spirit lion totem and whirling frenzy variants.

strength 16 plus 4 rage makes 20. +5 mod.

valorous greatsword 2d6+1 average 8 damage.

power attack + shock trooper + leap attack -8 AC for +24 damage

8 +7 +24 = 39; 39 *2 =78

On a charge this character can deliver 3 attacks that do 78 damage each for a total of 254 damage if they all hit. That can kill creatures of CR's into the mid and upper teens though it's unlikely to actually hit such creatures. CR 8 creatures will almost universally be dropped by only 2 hits and this isn't even fully kitted out. Goliath with mountain rage and starting with max strength instead of just above average, wearing gauntlets of ogre strength doubles the strength bonus to damage and adds a d6 to the weapon.

The maximum damage reachable by ubercharging is -way- beyond what's necessary to kill level appropriate enemies.

What I'm saying is don't put all your eggs in the ubercharger basket. Put enough into it to be comfortable and use other resources to cover situations where you can't charge.

[OldTrees1]

Dive attacks aren't necessarily charges so I don't know that dragonborn is necessary though it's as good a way as any to get flight.

I disagree. In the Rules Compendium you will find Dive attacks described in the Flying during a Charge section of the Charge page.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't have the rules compendium but I can accept that. It makes a certain amount of sense after all.

I don't hold much truck with the rules compendium, TBH. It sits in a weird place in regards to primary source rules and nearly all of what's in it is already printed in the books I already have. It just strikes me as a waste of $30ish.

[OldTrees1]

I don't have the rules compendium but I can accept that. It makes a certain amount of sense after all.

I don't hold much truck with the rules compendium, TBH. It sits in a weird place in regards to primary source rules and nearly all of what's in it is already printed in the books I already have. It just strikes me as a waste of $30ish.

I agree that it is not worth the $30. I also don't have it. However I still double check it for its field of expertise.