Shapechange question

[Max Caysey]

Hello...

I was thinking about something. Is it possible to change to Aleax and then use that creatures shapechange ability to change back to human (your original form)? Would you still have the aleax Sp, Su and Ex abilities?

[Nettlekid]

No, because the Aleax's Shapechange ability is a Sp ability, which you don't get from the creature you Shapechange into. You would need a creature with Su Shapechange, like the Malaugrym, to do that.

[Max Caysey]

Ok... but then you use the duration of your first spell to revert back. Since you dont loose Ex abilities from shapechanging, you would still have all the Ex abilities from the Aleax as a human again right? For the duration of shapechange?

[Nettlekid]

If you Shapechanged into an Aleax, you have its abilities for as long as you are in that form. You gain no shapechanging abilities from the Aleax, so if you use the continuing, ongoing Shapechange spell to turn back into your normal form, you would be losing the Aleax's abilities in the same way that you lose a Troll's Regeneration when you stop being a Troll or a Red Dragon's fire breath when you stop being a Red Dragon.

[Emperor Tippy]

...
Aleax is a template, you can't gain templates through Shapechange.

[Chronos]

Wait, no follow-up on how you can turn into an aleax anyway? Who are you, and what have you done with the real Tippy?

[Emperor Tippy]

Wait, no follow-up on how you can turn into an aleax anyway? Who are you, and what have you done with the real Tippy?

You can become one, you just can't Shapechange into one.

[Max Caysey]

Its was more a question about the gain and loss of abilities. If you only loose Su abilities when you shapechange, then you should as I read it, collect abilities from a number of creatures is they are ex abilities, as you keep changing into new ones. You keep gaining ex and su, but only loose su abilities.

[Nettlekid]

Its was more a question about the gain and loss of abilities. If you only loose Su abilities when you shapechange, then you should as I read it, collect abilities from a number of creatures is they are ex abilities, as you keep changing into new ones. You keep gaining ex and su, but only loose su abilities.

That doesn't work in two ways. First, as Shapechange originally was, you retain some qualities of your original form and gain those of the form you turn into. When you leave the form you turned into, you lose the qualities you gained, because you have the qualities of the assumed form, and once you leave that form you don't have those qualities anymore. It's like you never really HAD them, you just had use of them.

But that's also moot because of the Polymorph Subschool introduced in the PHBII, which makes all spells based on Alter Self and Polymorph remove ALL old abilities (even class features that your new form should otherwise be able to use, like Sneak Attack and spellcasting) when you change form. This certainly makes what you're suggesting impossible.

[Max Caysey]

Two things...

1) Where does it actually say that an aleax is a template? Not that im disputing this, but I just dont see it.

2) shapechange says the following: You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities.

This is an exception to the rule, of "functions like polimorph which fnctions like alter self."

If I only loose my own supernatural abilities, then I'm keeping the Extraordinary abilities. Just like the aleax would if that shapechanged.


PS. Just looked at the PHB2 polymorph school. What a load of crap. Loosing class abilities... would mean loosing the ability to cast spells when a wizard polymorphs... and feats and skill points are lost... and the equipment looses its power. Its a good thing we are not using that rule.

[Brookshw]

But that's also moot because of the Polymorph Subschool introduced in the PHBII, which makes all spells based on Alter Self and Polymorph remove ALL old abilities (even class features that your new form should otherwise be able to use, like Sneak Attack and spellcasting) when you change form. This certainly makes what you're suggesting impossible.

Wait, what about the "spells that had come before" clause specifically not being affected (Alterself etc). Did they errata it?

[Karnith]

Wait, what about the "spells that had come before" clause specifically not being affected (Alterself etc). Did they errata it?
No, spells with their own rules override the Polymorph Subschool rules when the two conflict; Alter Self (and its derivatives) still let you retain all of the things that they say you keep.

[Nettlekid]

Wait, what about the "spells that had come before" clause specifically not being affected (Alterself etc). Did they errata it?

Oh, I see. It says those spells (Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange, etc) have the polymorph subschool, except that spell specifics take precedence over the subschool rules. So...With Alter Self (and thus Polymorph) you would indeed retain your Su and Sp abilities, but Shapechange specifically takes your natural form's Su abilities. And I suppose that since Alter Self says you keep Ex abilities derived from class levels (and thus Polymorph does too, and thus Shapechange does too,) then you would still keep them.

So because of that line which says that the specifics of the old spells beat the generalization of the Polymorph Subschool, are Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange unchanged from what they could previously do?

[Brookshw]

No, spells with their own rules override the Polymorph Subschool rules when the two conflict; Alter Self (and its derivatives) still let you retain all of the things that they say you keep.

Thanks, that's what I thought (though it would probably balance better without the clause).

[Emperor Tippy]

But that's also moot because of the Polymorph Subschool introduced in the PHBII, which makes all spells based on Alter Self and Polymorph remove ALL old abilities (even class features that your new form should otherwise be able to use, like Sneak Attack and spellcasting) when you change form. This certainly makes what you're suggesting impossible.

That is completely, utterly, totally, and entirely not true at all.

Leaving aside the slight issue of WotC precedent rules and nothing but official PHB 1 errata being able to actually override what the PHB 1 says, the PHB 2 says on page 96

"For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells’ existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool. Alter self,for instance, does not change the target’s ability scores (unlike normal for spells of the polymorph subschool)."

Shapechange inherits from Polymorph which inherits from Alter Self which states

"Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same."

The bit about loosing class features is why no one with a brain has anything at all to do with the Polymorph subschool. Besides being totally contradicted by every shapechanging character WotC has ever published, it also makes the game a royal pain in the ass to play and contradicts a number of the games conventions and rules. One of the big ones being that class is independent of form.

[Nettlekid]

*snip*

Refresh before you post.

[Emperor Tippy]

Refresh before you post.

No. Not worth the effort.

[Max Caysey]

Im glad we agree on something. Booh to the PHB2.

[Melcar]

So as I read it you mean this:

When you change the first time, you loose your own (Su) abilities but gain (Ex) and (Su) of the new form. WHen you change again you loose (Su) but gain (Ex) and (Su) of the new form. Meaning you now have one set of (Su) abilities and two sets of (Ex) abilities. If you change again you loose (Su) abilities and gain (Ex) and (Su) abilities of your new form for a total of one set of (Su) and three sets of (Ex). As long as the spell is still in duration ofc.

Im personally very unsure. After reading the spell text I can see it, but I must think this is a mistake. Im unsure!

[Max Caysey]

Yes that is basically what I mean.

[Dalebert]

So, let me get this straight.

Because the spell description doesn't specifically say that you lose the abilities of a form after shifting out of it (because that should be obvious), you're going to try to get your DM to let you keep adding abilities every time you shift? If you get away with that, you may as well keep all the Su abilities as well because per the exact wording, it says you lose "your own supernatural abilities" and not those of the forms you take.

Party on!

[Nettlekid]

So as I read it you mean this:

When you change the first time, you loose your own (Su) abilities but gain (Ex) and (Su) of the new form. WHen you change again you loose (Su) but gain (Ex) and (Su) of the new form. Meaning you now have one set of (Su) abilities and two sets of (Ex) abilities. If you change again you loose (Su) abilities and gain (Ex) and (Su) abilities of your new form for a total of one set of (Su) and three sets of (Ex). As long as the spell is still in duration ofc.

Im personally very unsure. After reading the spell text I can see it, but I must think this is a mistake. Im unsure!

The spell states that you lose your own abilities and take on those of the assumed form. When you leave that form, it is no longer the assumed form, so you do not take on those abilities anymore.

[Dalebert]

The spell states that you lose your own abilities and take on those of the assumed form. When you leave that form, it is no longer the assumed form, so you do not take on those abilities anymore.

But Nettlekid! It doesn't SAY you lose them. It just says "take on" so you just keep taking on new abilities.</sarcasm>