Sim/Construct Army - Dismantle

[kalos72]

So my setting is based on the group rebuilding a major city in FR, no army / navy / police.

IGNORE the conversation on how because I do not want to get into that side of the debate.

Other then normal combat/warfare means, how could an enemy army or commander defeat an army of say 1000 5 duskblade/10 wizard troops; each being paired with a set (2) dire wolf warbeast type constructs?

I am looking at it from a weakness of a SIM or Construct army versus the purely tactical options. No moral / ethical / financial debate, purely trying to determine what if any downside an army of mini main PC's with absolute loyalty might have.

This should be fun... :)

[Slipperychicken]

What is the enemy army?

[kalos72]

Besides from a purely tactical/combat/warfare perspective...

Where are the shortcomings or weaknesses of an army like this?

Whats the enemy army, you tell me what could defeat them through other means? NOT just combat strength in numbers....

[kalos72]

So judging by the lack of response, using an army of simulcrums has no true downside other then the details on making 1000 sims?

I would have thought there was a mass dispel counter or something maybe?

[Brookshw]

Offhand I guess it might be slightly harder to heal than a regular army depending on the set up (though not hard to overcome this really)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Since you're ignoring cost, none. Simulacrum is instantaneous and can't be dispelled, and True Seeing only reveals that they are Simulacra without impacting their combat strength. Otherwise they are like normal creatures of their type.
Your army would cost severel orders of magnitude more than a "standard" army of comparable size, which is why all those fantasy kingdoms use squishy but cheap low HD humanoids instead.

[Skysaber]

Other then normal combat/warfare means, how could an enemy army or commander defeat an army of say 1000 5 duskblade/10 wizard troops; each being paired with a set (2) dire wolf warbeast type constructs?

Did you really just ask us to find weaknesses in an army of 15th level characters with two constructs each?

Weaknesses [blank] go on the offensive! With an army like that you could conquer half of Faerun.

[Drachasor]

Simulacrums still need to eat. They are also harder to heal -- how hard is a bit variable depending on how the DM interprets the healing text.

They are cheaper than constructs, but more expensive than regular troops. You can mass-produce them, but this does take time. Their power can be an issue since they are just half as powerful as what they are based on (though there's some ice assassin cheese to side-step this).

[CSeiberlin]

So my setting is based on the group rebuilding a major city in FR, no army / navy / police.



I assume you are looking for a weakness or flaw in the players army that seems a bit homogenous and and hugely expensive force (and probably a bit lacking in canon fodder).

Conventionally, opposing forces that don't have some serious magic or monster support will probably get steamrolled. 1,000 casters is a hard counter. Simulacrums aren't great on taking the initiative ('At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command.') so while they would defend themselves they might not pursue an enemy if they were ordered to "stay here and guard the pass". Hit and run tactics and those relying on attrition might be the best means of challenging the players if you aren't going to throw a highly magical force at them in return (which would get whumped on a set piece battlefield).

Using guerrilla tactics you could set up snares and traps. Or even goblins in the walls\sewers of the city setting up alchemist fire fantasy IEDs... shrug.

I'm not sure simulacrums have to eat. I've only seen two in any sort of published material and iirc neither of them were in a spot were they had any sort of access to food or even water (Lost Island of Castanamir and the other an old dungeon adventure). Sims fall into a murky rules area but they're some point between illusion (shadow) and actual construct. They're made of ice\snow, but I'd put them the 'does not have to eat to continue living category'. Still there is some rule weirdness here... they would have Constitution scores...heh... don't know.

Anyway, not sure what sort of resources you're willing to throw at the PCs. A DM can always trump players so my assumption is you're looking for something cheap and evil to counter whatever shenanigans the PCs pulled to get an army that would take over 15 million xp to make and a ton of gold (and give them a run for the money).

With a non-conventional force, I'd probably go with a Beholder BBEG or a necromancer... or both (with undead beholders). Key thing I'd want would be a Hive of Beholders going after the players. The antimagic cones won't shut down the simulacrums but it will shut down their spellcasting (and bodyguards of your choice to help protect the beholders). In support I'd go with an army of shadows that the have been carefully spawned up from raided villages.

I would foreshadow both but avoid a open fight until they were ready for some sort of final attack.

Or I guess you could scan through the spell list to see if there are any spells that allow another caster to seize control of another caster's illusion and\or shadow spells. Shar cultists, Netheril arcanists, or even shadowcraft (gnome) illusionists as the core antagonists to exploit the PC's overspecialization. I'm pretty sure I remember a 3.5 spell that allows you to steal control of a construct but not sure about illusions (seem to remember one) but you'll have to do your own homework.

Other easily spawned monster armies could consist of oozes I guess. They'd be tough to dump onto an army of flying wizards...and very situational (green slime is destroyed by sunlight for instance). Beyond oozes and undead, the only other fast spawn critters I can think of are slaadi but I'm sure there are others.

On a last note, looking at the simulacrum spell again, while it says they remain under your absolute command it also states no telepathic link exists. So they identify their creator by 'magic' and just *know*. In canon Faerun I'm sure this at least one critter in the Monsters of Faerun book (and probably two) that have a greater shapechange like ability. Greater Dopplegangers I think can create perfect likenesses for one but I think the Harpers fought another race of perfect shapechangers as well (but can't remember the critters name).

If something like that infiltrated the city, I'd probably rule that if it took the creator's form it would be enough to fool the simulacrums.... who would neither question nor hesitate to carry out orders (obey absolutely). The PCs could work around infiltration with a password system of sorts (don't obey orders if not issued with a certain daily password, with an order to receive a new password every morning). Going that route would probably be the most economical of the bunch at the same time as convincing the players that the sims might be too much of a crutch.

[TuggyNE]

I'm not sure simulacrums have to eat. I've only seen two in any sort of published material and iirc neither of them were in a spot were they had any sort of access to food or even water (Lost Island of Castanamir and the other an old dungeon adventure). Sims fall into a murky rules area but they're some point between illusion (shadow) and actual construct. They're made of ice\snow, but I'd put them the 'does not have to eat to continue living category'. Still there is some rule weirdness here... they would have Constitution scores...heh... don't know.

Elementals and Outsiders have Con scores, but do not eat, so there's precedent for highly magical semi-artificial creatures that need no sustenance.

[Drachasor]

Elementals and Outsiders have Con scores, but do not eat, so there's precedent for highly magical semi-artificial creatures that need no sustenance.

This is stated under their Type though. A simulacrum of a human would have the humanoid type and need to eat. Nothing in the simulacrum description removes that need, so they must eat.

Bit odd to eat and not heal, but that's what the RAW clearly indicates.


I assume you are looking for a weakness or flaw in the players army that seems a bit homogenous and and hugely expensive force (and probably a bit lacking in canon fodder).

Canon Fodder can be created with Summons and other spells. Wizards with 5th level spells and CL of 14 (assuming Practiced Spellcaster which is almost certain), have even regular summons last for 1 minute and 24 seconds (quite a long time in terms of battle).

That, Teleport, and other spells makes this force pretty much undefeatable by any conventionally statted army. They could easily take out armies 10 times their size.

[CSeiberlin]

Canon Fodder can be created with Summons and other spells. Wizards with 5th level spells and CL of 14 (assuming Practiced Spellcaster which is almost certain), have even regular summons last for 1 minute and 24 seconds (quite a long time in terms of battle).

That, Teleport, and other spells makes this force pretty much undefeatable by any conventionally statted army. They could easily take out armies 10 times their size.

Eh.... 14 rounds for a summons is more than enough time for tactical level combat but on a operational battle scale?

Assume they hold the summons until main engagements, they're going to probably use 1 5th level spell for overland flight (though maybe not with constructs) and maybe another for teleport (here again the constructs may limit maneuverability but due to weight). They'll probably also carry a darkvision spell (for humanoid night engagements) and a selection of protection spells... so roughly guestimating about 5 to 8 summon spells of various levels.

Thinking about it, unless the constructs can fly, the PC army is about as maneuverable as most conventional armies... so the maneuver phase of an engagement would look a bit more mundane (and chew up a bit of duration from the protection spells). Even if the PC army is a defensive one, strategically they can't just sit behind the city walls if they hope to rebuild it.... they'll need the farms and resources of the surrounding countryside to move forward... so they would probably take to the field.

Any conventional army filled with a basic rank and file of 1st to 3rd level warriors is still going to get chewed up even if they vastly surpass the PC army's quality with quantity. Any conventional force should have some basic intel on the opposing force and it would seem a bit hard to hide 1,000 simulacrums and twice as many constructs... they should know that offering direct decisive engagements will probably not weigh in their favor. Harassment and skirmish style tactics throughout an entire battle day will wear down the PC army's spell list (hrm...that's alot of spellbooks or at least spellbook sharing as a side note), even a 100k mongol horde style army probably would have some trouble cracking the PC army in a campaign but should seriously attrit their numbers.

Honestly, if I was just looking to deliver a bit of comeupance to the PCs and fix an issue (such as the PCs figured out some way of getting a multi-million xp cost army for free) I'd just use the lever that they 'follow your absolute command' against them.

[Drachasor]

Eh.... 14 rounds for a summons is more than enough time for tactical level combat but on a operational battle scale?

Invisibility + Fly + Dimensional Door + Teleport means you can pretty easily place them wherever you want and hardly anyone will be able to notice you. So out in the battlefield, with 1000 other people like you, that's going to be a dominating factor. If the enemy has a lot of See Invisibility or similar magic, you'll have to be more careful. However being able to place your disposable troops within 10 rounds of the enemy (1200 feat at a run) and leave is pretty awesome.


Assume they hold the summons until main engagements, they're going to probably use 1 5th level spell for overland flight (though maybe not with constructs) and maybe another for teleport (here again the constructs may limit maneuverability but due to weight). They'll probably also carry a darkvision spell (for humanoid night engagements) and a selection of protection spells... so roughly guestimating about 5 to 8 summon spells of various levels.

14th level caster, so that means 4 medium creatures or two large creatures. A Dire Wolf is a large so two constructs of that size could be transported. I assume that's what the OP meant when he said they were "Dire Wolf" like. Weight doesn't matter except for carrying capacity with teleport. Though it is quite possible one Construct could carry another which would mean one Huge Construct carrying another Huge construct would be good for a teleport.

So I think you heavily underestimate the mobility of these forces.

[Coidzor]

They are cheaper than constructs, but more expensive than regular troops. You can mass-produce them, but this does take time. Their power can be an issue since they are just half as powerful as what they are based on (though there's some ice assassin cheese to side-step this).

Considering these are being made from, apparently, a Duskblade 10/Wizard 20(Kind of a weird build, but there you go)... Cost is probably the least of concerns. Why they've limited themselves to only 1000 casters of 5th level spells and 2000 Effigy(?) Warbeast Dire Wolves is the bigger question, I think. Followed by why they went with something as wimpy as Warbeast Dire Wolves for the melee-support for the gishy simulacrums.


I assume you are looking for a weakness or flaw in the players army that seems a bit homogenous and and hugely expensive force (and probably a bit lacking in canon fodder).

*cannon

Also, you say that like it's a bad thing. :smalltongue:


14th level caster, so that means 4 medium creatures or two large creatures. A Dire Wolf is a large so two constructs of that size could be transported. I assume that's what the OP meant when he said they were "Dire Wolf" like. Weight doesn't matter except for carrying capacity with teleport. Though it is quite possible one Construct could carry another which would mean one Huge Construct carrying another Huge construct would be good for a teleport.

So I think you heavily underestimate the mobility of these forces.

It's basically making an army out of characters that wouldn't be too out of place as special ops/black ops/assassins.

[Togo]

The lack of initiative/absolute obedience thing is key - whoever is issuing the orders has a full-time job, and if they get ganked the army might just stand around.

Disguising yourself as the order issuer should be good for some chaos. So too would disguising yourself as one of the simulacra, and then attacking. With luck you can withdraw after a round or too and they'll have identified things that look like you as an enemy target. Since they all look like you, they'll kill each other. Otherwise, they may just not fight back at all, and you have a means of killing them easily.

On a more basic level, just attacking in two or more places at once should be good. Only the place where the order issuer is active will respond properly, while the rest will just go on standing orders. Any set of orders, if properly mapped, is exploitable.

[lt_murgen]

The lack of initiative/absolute obedience thing is key - whoever is issuing the orders has a full-time job, and if they get ganked the army might just stand around.

....just attacking in two or more places at once should be good. Only the place where the order issuer is active will respond properly, while the rest will just go on standing orders. Any set of orders, if properly mapped, is exploitable.

This. Pull the army into two or more chunks and keep them far apart. This gets really nasty if the DM determines that each of the sims must be given orders individually- there is nothing that specifically says or rules out that they will obey general orders given to an entire group. The term 'absolute command' is pretty vague.

[sleepyphoenixx]

This. Pull the army into two or more chunks and keep them far apart. This gets really nasty if the DM determines that each of the sims must be given orders individually- there is nothing that specifically says or rules out that they will obey general orders given to an entire group. The term 'absolute command' is pretty vague.

Simulacra are not mindless. They are as smart as the original creature and there is no reason why they can't follow general or vague orders/display initiative of their own.
They act like the creature they're based on would, with the exception that they are completely loyal.

[Hamste]

3000 soldiers in total? Tough soldiers but still just 3000. They would probably eventually lose simply through attrition. If a thousand people die to kill one of these guys the people are still coming out ahead (assuming armies on par with Asia in the 1300's). Even worse you can't hold anything you take as you don't have the numbers to do so (Leave 10 in a city and a single high level wizard killer in the city could kill them one at a time). They need some weak soldiers just to hold the cities they take (still weak to a single high level character but at least they are just losing low level soldiers who's lives mean nothing).


To kill them I would gather a group of about 4 20th level characters to kill them one at a time when they are forced to split off. Another possibility is to set up hundreds of spell glyphs of warding set to only go off when those people cross (they are all the same so this is easy). Explosive runes and fire traps are also nice (force them to get fire resistance and there goes another one of their spells). Also don't forget sundering, if you some how get close enough spell components are a large weakness (or have spells target it)

[kalos72]

Don't forget also, with regards to the command line issues, they can be commanded to obey someone else as well correct?

Master says " You 100 sims, you obey everything this nice Captain tells you, unless it counters something I tell you."

The PC they are based on is still in the works, he was a 10/23 fighter/wizard (I think) but wanted to go something along a bladesinger but he hasn't finalized it yet. This guy has been playing this character for 15+ years now...

So other then tactical counters and limitations as any army will have, it appears that the slow healing and perhaps the command functions are the only two real weaknesses that this army would have.

I like the Ice Assassin option but thats a bit too far for me...1000 10/23rd PC type sims running around would get ugly quick. But I Love them for special NPC's like master shipwrights and Sea Captains... :)

[CSeiberlin]

Don't forget also, with regards to the command line issues, they can be commanded to obey someone else as well correct?

Master says " You 100 sims, you obey everything this nice Captain tells you, unless it counters something I tell you."



They aren't dumb constructs, but they have no free will. They have no choice but to obey their creator's orders (even if the creature of origin would never do such a thing like slaughter a village, or kill himself). You can pass off orders to follow subcommander instructions but while you could argue that the 'magical' connection between creator and simulacrum exists that they somehow *know* their creator (requiring some advanced power shapeshift to spoof) they would not have the same connection to an assigned subcommander. Meaning normal illusions or dopplegangers disguising an infiltrator as a subcommander could subvert an entire section of simulacrums (at least temporarily) unless detected by the sims.

You could move into a sort of Asimov's rules of robotics to set up a list of standing orders that could not be countermanded by a subcommander, but those (as entire series of short stories and books can attest) can be perverted or lead to unintended consequences.

The lack of free will doesn't make them entirely robotic... their creator could give them a pretty long leash if they're willing to risk it (and totally avoid a situation where the sim could be turned by a shapechanger) by ordering, "Perform the duties (Sea Captain, soldier in Phlan's army, etc) assigned to you as best you are able and as you see fit within the exceptions of that position (i.e.... no going off and being an adventurer, or deciding the best way to protect the city is to destroy any potential threats preemptively). Accept no further orders from me." Granted, if the base critter that they are modeled after is a bit of an asshat that could lead to a whole host of other problems, but it would cut the risk that someone could subvert a significant portion of the sim army.

[Coidzor]

"Act as Special Forces for me in this hierarchical structure and respond to threats appropriately," bam? :smallconfused:

[kalos72]

Lol...one of the group just made this suggestion.

Make the sims from Maegera the Inferno... :P