How cool is Umber Disciple?

[GhengisConrad]

So, what I keep doing is breaking down and restructtering the same build over and over. He changed dramatically at times, but it my mind its the same guy, just chosing his destiny in different ways. You can see him by following the link in my signature.

It all started 10 years ago, before 3.5, with my pitiful sub-op 3.0 teflamor shadowlord builds (where I would get really excited about mixing rouge with guild-theif to get 2d6 sneak in 2 rather than 3 levels)

Anywho, while I have dropped shadow pouncing for pounce pouncing and some drunken stagger, I still want to keep that 'hide in plain sight' 'shadowy concealment' theme going; because I am a kinda anti-hero lovin kid of the 90's, and I always like the idea of having some shadowy flavor to my build.

however....

Is it worth it?

What do I get for 3 levels of umbral deciple. Full concealment and ranger's hide in plain sight. That's pretty bitchen, no?

I mean it. Is it useful to my melee build at all? The thing is, hide is a move action, so its not like I can try to hide after each pounce, unless I gain like a haste or something... which could be cool I guess. But I figure there are better uses for a spare partial action... no?

Is concealment even useful in high level high op play? So what they can't see me, I'm sure they'll have scent or blindsight or whatever to "see" me, and even with darkstalker, I would ahve to actively be using 'hide', and my concealment wouldn't do me anygood... right?

As usual, I'm actually hoping to be shown how wrong I am, either here, in this thread, which would let me keep my build delicious; or, in my build, which is fine. I enjoy crafting with new knowledge.

So, I look forward to your ever-insightful analysis which you so commonly provide.

[Vanitas]

Hiding is not a move action.

[nedz]

Hiding is done as part of a move action though, unless you are sniping in which case it is a move action.


Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

[OldTrees1]

Umbral Disciple gives 20% concealment and Hide in Plain Sight (SU, able to hide when observed).

So no it does not give Full concealment. It gives enough concealment to hide and allows you to hide while observed. It stops you from being discovered by a mere light.

The next stage of stealth is being hidden from stage 2 senses (blindsight/scent/temorsense/blindsense). This is accomplished with the Darkstalker feat.

The final stage of stealth is being hidden from stage 3 sense (Lifesense, Mindsight and Touchsight)


Stage 1 of stealth (hide while observed) is required for in combat stealth. Once you have Stage 1 there is little reason not to get stage 2 of stealth. Stage 3 of stealth is only for specialists.

I do not know if your character wants in combat stealth (rather than surprise round stealth)

[GhengisConrad]

In-Round definitley.

Can't I put up to 4 esentia into the umbral thing? I need to read, but I thought I could get 40% miss chance.

If I just use a mere ring of darkness on myself, then I could gain said concealment and always have my backup umbral concealment if I am 'countered' via light, right?

[GutterFace]

In-Round definitley.

Can't I put up to 4 esentia into the umbral thing? I need to read, but I thought I could get 40% miss chance.

If I just use a mere ring of darkness on myself, then I could gain said concealment and always have my backup umbral concealment if I am 'countered' via light, right?

Essentia has a by-level cap in MoI. there are feats and classes to expand that further though

[OldTrees1]

In-Round definitley.

Can't I put up to 4 esentia into the umbral thing? I need to read, but I thought I could get 40% miss chance.

If I just use a mere ring of darkness on myself, then I could gain said concealment and always have my backup umbral concealment if I am 'countered' via light, right?
For in round hiding you need Hide in Plain Sight (Dark Template or Umbral Disciple 3).

You can put 4 essentia, but not initially. Your essentia per receptacle is capped based on your HD. However there is not much reason to put more than 2 essentia in it since that is all that is needed to hide. If you have spare essentia then maybe.

Darkness is 20% concealment so Umbral Disciple (20% + Hide In Plain Sight) is strictly better.

[Darrin]

I mean it. Is it useful to my melee build at all? The thing is, hide is a move action, so its not like I can try to hide after each pounce, unless I gain like a haste or something... which could be cool I guess. But I figure there are better uses for a spare partial action... no?


Hiding is not a move action. It's a skill check that "piggybacks" on top of another action (or even a "non-action", such as a 5' foot step). You may be confusing the general Hide rules with the Sniping rules. Sniping allows you to stay in the same square and continue hiding after an attack with a -20 penalty, but you can actually hide after *any* attack with a -20 penalty so long as you satisfy the requirements for Hiding. The two most important requirements are 1) you are not being observed by your target and 2) you must have cover/concealment.

HiPS comes in various forms, but I believe the version from Umbral Disciple satisfies both 1) and 2) if you have at least 20% invested.

So you can pounce and then hide immediately afterward with a -20 penalty. However, unless you have some way to move after your pounce, it should be fairly obvious which square you wound up in.

Another good thing about an obscenely high Hide check is if you're using mostly mundane means to hide, it foils true seeing.

Curmudgeon should be able to back me up here. Nobody knows more about Hide/HiPS than he does.



Is concealment even useful in high level high op play? So what they can't see me, I'm sure they'll have scent or blindsight or whatever to "see" me, and even with darkstalker, I would ahve to actively be using 'hide', and my concealment wouldn't do me anygood... right?


At higher levels, AC becomes less important for two reasons: 1) it doesn't scale as quickly as BAB/Str/misc. attack bonuses, and 2) your enemies are more likely to have attacks that ignore AC completely. Miss chance/concealment becomes a much more effective strategy to avoid getting hit.

Before the Rules Compendium, miss chance and concealment could be considered two different things, so you could stack something like blink (a percentage you're not physically there when the attack lands) with something like blur (disrupting your opponent's ability to visually target you). I'm not sure if the Rules Compendium allows that... I think it says "no stacking, use the highest percentage."

Completely removing yourself as a target can be extremely effective at all levels, although it does have tactical consequences. Your enemies may focus on your squishier companions, your companions will have a much harder time coordinating their actions with you if they don't know (or care) where you are, and you may wind up isolated and split off from the party if they aren't willing to wait for you to finish being sneaky.

Or you might get so good at it that the DM gets frustrated that he can't hurt you and brings out the nerfbat. Or the other PCs decide you're monopolizing the spotlight and start complaining or sabotaging you. Effective? Heck yes. Annoying? Work it out with your group.

[Vanitas]

Hiding is done as part of a move action though, unless you are sniping in which case it is a move action.

No, it's part of moving, which does not necessarily mean a move action. You can even hide without moving, actually - since as when you're attacking.

[GhengisConrad]

What if I had a partial action to move after my pounce? Would I still incur a -20 penalty to my hide?

[OldTrees1]

What if I had a partial action to move after my pounce? Would I still incur a -20 penalty to my hide?

"You can move up to half your normal speed and hide at no penalty."

The -20 is only if you want to do it after attacking without using a move action.

Sidenote: Partial Actions do not exist in 3.5. What type of action did you mean?

[Vanitas]

What if I had a partial action to move after my pounce? Would I still incur a -20 penalty to my hide?

You don't even need a partial action if you're shadow pouncing. Pounce, take a 5-ft step, hide.

[gorfnab]

Here is a fairly new Umbral Disciple Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12106.0) that might be of interest to you.

[danzibr]

Here is a fairly new Umbral Disciple Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=12106.0) that might be of interest to you.
Nice resource.

To answer the thread title: really sweet.

[Psyren]

I like the class a lot because (a) it's a much easier way to get HiPs than Shadowdancer, and (b) unlike Shadowdancer it still progresses SA.

Also essentia, and I think most rogues can benefit from a splash of incarnum anyway.

[animewatcha]

The final stage of stealth is being hidden from stage 3 sense (Lifesense, Mindsight and Touchsight)




I can guess minssight as mindblank. How does one 'hide' from lifesense and touchsight. Heck, what is touchsight?

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm also a fan of Umbral Disciple. It's not crazy, but it's solid and a few levels really wouldn't hurt most stealth types.

As others have said, hiding is part of movement, so if you met the various requirements for Hide and you had some movement granted to you after you charged, you would be able to hide. Might I suggest Evasive Reflexes, possibly alongside Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike? They attack you, they trigger an AoO, which you can use for a 5' step... which you do into hiding, thanks to the fact that you have HiPS and concealment up.

(Actually, I want to build a character that hides off-turn right now using that same mechanic. That sounds super fun.)

[Psyren]

I can guess minssight as mindblank. How does one 'hide' from lifesense and touchsight. Heck, what is touchsight?

Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) = "if I have line of effect to you, I can see you perfectly."

Hiding from them requires very specific methods like Vecna-blooded or Cerebral Blind.

[OldTrees1]

I can guess minssight as mindblank. How does one 'hide' from lifesense and touchsight. Heck, what is touchsight?

Mindsight has no RAW defense however the fluff (related to mindflayers) implies that Immunity to Mind-Effecting effects is enough.

Lifesense only detects the living. Undead and non Warforged constructs are unnoticed. Also Lifesense can be confused since it sees lifeforce as lamps of various sizes.

Touchsight is a psionic power that detects anything material in line of effect.


My personal solution is to use 1 level of the Ghost template class.

[DarkSonic1337]

So to hide from everything you should be a Ghost with Darkstalker and mindblank up? (along with a form of concealment that isn't beat by true seeing, hide in plain sight, and a good enough hide check)?

[OldTrees1]

So to hide from everything you should be a Ghost with Darkstalker and mindblank up? (along with a form of concealment that isn't beat by true seeing, hide in plain sight, and a good enough hide check)?
Yes.

Undead are immune to mindeffecting effects so no Mindblank needed.

[Piggy Knowles]

Mindsight isn't mind-affecting. That said, it doesn't cross planar boundaries, so the ghost's ability to go ethereal will block it.

[Snowbluff]

Touchsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) = "if I have line of effect to you, I can see you perfectly."

Hiding from them requires very specific methods like Vecna-blooded or Cerebral Blind.

The trick about Vecna Blooded is that you can lose the LA, but you'll keep the immunity to divinations/etc.


I like the class a lot because (a) it's a much easier way to get HiPs than Shadowdancer, and (b) unlike Shadowdancer it still progresses SA.

Also essentia, and I think most rogues can benefit from a splash of incarnum anyway. Yeah, I hadn't noticed it before. I don't normally dip for HiPS, but this seems beneficial in many ways. Especially if you're an Azurin, who get essentia and a bonus feat.

Human subraces are so good.

[Piggy Knowles]

Nothing in God-blooded says that you lose the LA, but rather that you lose the benefits of the template. I wouldn't consider level adjustment a BENEFIT.

[OldTrees1]

Mindsight isn't mind-affecting. That said, it doesn't cross planar boundaries, so the ghost's ability to go ethereal will block it.

RAW: You are correct.
Fluff: IIRC Lords of Madness remarks that Illithids dislike undead because they avoid Mindsight.

[Piggy Knowles]

True, and in my houserules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jwdgdWLym3Vse3MfmD_llzlkqoZ5pzfFnpI7t6mLGvg/edit?usp=sharing), I always include that as such. But unfortunately, the fluff and the crunch don't match - nothing in the crunch says that undead are immune to Mindsight.

[The_Snark]

RAW: You are correct.
Fluff: IIRC Lords of Madness remarks that Illithids dislike undead because they avoid Mindsight.

In addition, the sample mind flayer lair describes a list of effects that can conceal adventurers from an elder brain's telepathic awareness, which is pretty much the same as Mindsight. It's not RAW, but it's pretty easy to extrapolate RAI.

[Vanitas]

True, and in my houserules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jwdgdWLym3Vse3MfmD_llzlkqoZ5pzfFnpI7t6mLGvg/edit?usp=sharing), I always include that as such. But unfortunately, the fluff and the crunch don't match - nothing in the crunch says that undead are immune to Mindsight.

That's exactly the same thing he said :smallconfused:

[Piggy Knowles]

That's exactly the same thing he said :smallconfused:

Hence why the first word in that sentence was "true" - as in, "what you just said was true."

[Chronos]

To the list of Stage 3 senses, add Nemesis. It's an exalted feat for rangers that, among other effects, lets you detect and pinpoint your favored enemies within 60'.

And Lifesight is difficult to stop entirely (well, as long as you want to remain alive), but it can be stopped by anything that would stop ordinary light. For instance, in my current campaign a friend is playing a darkstalker arcane trickster, and was worried about the possibility of Lifesight (we've been encountering a lot of undead), so he cast a Programmed Illusion that if any creature ever appeared to be tracking him with its eyes, a black wall would appear between him and it.

[OldTrees1]

To the list of Stage 3 senses, add Nemesis. It's an exalted feat for rangers that, among other effects, lets you detect and pinpoint your favored enemies within 60'.

Hmm. Noted. Certainly fits since it cannot be stopped by RAW.

[Vanitas]

Hmm. Noted. Certainly fits since it cannot be stopped by RAW.

It's specially good when you have favored enemy (evil) and favored enemy (arcanists).

[Chronos]

Note that it only applies to only one of your favored enemies, so to get it to apply to Evil and Arcanists both, you'd need to take the feat twice. And I think it says in BoED that exalted feats are supernatural, so it'd be stopped by antimagic, though that's sort of the nuclear option for stopping abilities.

[Irk]

Personally, I think shadowpouncing is better, but if you really want a stealth pouncer, umbral disciple could be fun.

[Piggy Knowles]

Once again, though, being ethereal should block it, since nothing in Nemesis says it extends across planar boundaries.

EDIT: Sorry, this was in response to the discussion about Nemesis, not to Irk's post about shadowpouncing. That's what I get for leaving my reply box open too long...