deities unable to auto kill an immortal?

[AdamantlyD20]

A player wishes to challenge the gods in all out war, and i was reading in the "deities and demigods handbook" that many deities have an ability for a deity to be able to kill or resurrect any mortal on any plane, even those on another plane. If a PC has an ability that grants them immortality are they immune to the deity's ability to "insta-kill" them when a deity is on a different plane. Furthermore, does this mean a deity must either personally, or through an Avatar, be on the same plane as the PC's to engage them in combat assuming their minions couldn't finish the job.

[Urpriest]

IIRC, mortal is a game-mechanical term defined in that book as being without divine ranks.

[AdamantlyD20]

So regardless of "immortality", as far as the deity is concerned, the PC is mortal?

[Zanos]

IIRC, mortal is a game-mechanical term defined in that book as being without divine ranks.

Deities have the following special quality:

Immortality: Deities are naturally immortal and
cannot die from natural causes. They do not age and do
not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a
deity to die is through special circumstances—most
often, being slain in magical or physical combat with
deities of higher stature.

This is listed in their stat blocks under special qualities. Arguably any creature that doesn't die of natural causes could be considered immortal by those standards, but the intended wording is probably "any non-deity", although arguing RAI will get peoples dander up.

[AdamantlyD20]

"Immortality (Ex): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery."

[Urpriest]

IIRC, mortal is a game-mechanical term defined in that book as being without divine ranks.

Found the reference. On page 6 of Deities and Demigods, in the Glossary sidebar (protip: always always read the glossary), it defines:


Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. Mortals include humanoids, outsiders, and the other creatures in the Monster Manual.

[AdamantlyD20]

What if the PC is unable to be sensed with divisions. The subject must be in a location the deity can sense. If they don't know the PC is there, does that mean they can't use the ability without physically seeing the PC, ( through an Avatar or through a worshipper or temple)

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's almost nothing other than the protection of a higher ranking deity that can protect a non-deity from the life and death salient divine ability.

Your wizard is going to have to find a way to get divine rank 0 or play one or another deity for a fool to gain protection. Taking on gods is exceedingly dangerous business, even by the standards of adventurers.

[Urpriest]

What if the PC is unable to be sensed with divisions. The subject must be in a location the deity can sense. If they don't know the PC is there, does that mean they can't use the ability without physically seeing the PC, ( through an Avatar or through a worshipper or temple)

Which ability are you asking about? Hand of Death has explicit rules about line of effect and sensory contact, Life and Death explicitly works without line of effect but still requires sensory contact. Is there another ability you're curious about that doesn't have an explicit rule?

As for being immune to divinations, a deity's remote sensing ability explicitly bypasses most such protections.

[AdamantlyD20]

Can the "life and death" be used repeatedly, if somehow the PC had enough HP to Survive? Also what if they're immune to necromancy spells and effects. Life and death says it is treated as a " destruction" spell, which is necromancy school.

[AdamantlyD20]

Trying to know what kind of chance PC's have by RAW. Not trying to brutally obliterate the PC's but i don't want the deities to be pushovers. Need to know their capabilities.

[Lanaya]

Life and death doesn't care about HP. You just die, no matter what.

[AdamantlyD20]

Does it count as a necromancy spell effect?

[Urpriest]

Does it count as a necromancy spell effect?

Since it's supposed to function like destruction, I'd say it counts as necromancy, and more relevantly, as a [Death] effect.

[AdamantlyD20]

Thank you everyone who's contributed so far, much appreciated. If it counts as necromancy, and death effect. If somehow the pc's had immunity to either, would they be immune to the deity's ability?

[Phelix-Mu]

The major thing about trying to challenge the gods to all-out-war is you pretty much have to do it without ever saying anything about it out loud. Portfolio sense for the higher-ranked gods is a ridiculous strategic advantage.

More generally speaking, many gods like the enemy they know more than the enemy they don't. Aside from specific rivalries, most gods would probably be anti-newcomer, and so would cooperate in varying degrees to make sure a "war against the gods" failed miserably.

You also have to think that, in the history of crazy wizards/[insert other class], there have been multiple ones that have had this genius idea. Thus, the gods probably already have a watch list of nutter wizards and others level 17 and higher (or just all people 17 and higher).

[Red Fel]

The short version is that if your players want to have a decent chance of taking on deities, they should probably become at least Quasi-Deities (Rank 0). Rank 1 would be better, since it can render you immune to the Divine Aura of Rank 1 deities. If the PCs already at epic levels, it really shouldn't be that hard - there should be at least one deity they've impressed enough to earn it, or maybe one they're able to trick into conveying the rank. Being a Rank 0 deity means you're already a step above all other forms of existence, and enjoy a (very mild) form of protection against hostile deities.

Of course, when you're planning to fight a being that has "at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence," can "perform any action [associated with its portfolio] as a free action" (within certain limits), can grant itself spontaneous spells, and can alter the flow of magic within its domain, you're kind of asking for it.

[Zanos]

Since it's supposed to function like destruction, I'd say it counts as necromancy, and more relevantly, as a [Death] effect.
It does, however:


This ability works across planar boundaries and penetrates any barrier except a Divine Shield.

The removal of the saving throw means that being Undead or a Construct won't help you, so you would need some rather exotic immunity for it to not affect you.

[Sith_Happens]

Thank you everyone who's contributed so far, much appreciated. If it counts as necromancy, and death effect. If somehow the pc's had immunity to either, would they be immune to the deity's ability?

Yep. Hand of Death and Life and Death both function as Destruction with no additional text to bypass Death Ward or similar protections. Mass Life and Death has no such references though, so a divine rank is the only way to avoid that one.

EDIT: "Penetrates any barrier" might in fact include Death Ward et. al., it's up to you.

[Urpriest]

It does, however:



The removal of the saving throw means that being Undead or a Construct won't help you, so you would need some rather exotic immunity for it to not affect you.

That depends on whether Death Ward counts as a barrier, though. Unfortunately, barrier isn't in the glossary, but it definitely sounds like it refers to physical interpositions, not single-target buffs.

That said, there are lots of ways to kill you that don't use Life and Death. Remember, gods have pretty much at-will access to Miracle. There's a lot they can accomplish.

[Zanos]

That depends on whether Death Ward counts as a barrier, though. Unfortunately, barrier isn't in the glossary, but it definitely sounds like it refers to physical interpositions, not single-target buffs.

That said, there are lots of ways to kill you that don't use Life and Death. Remember, gods have pretty much at-will access to Miracle. There's a lot they can accomplish.
The example "barrier", divine-shield, is a self targeting buff. I don't think it's referring to castle walls.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

There's almost nothing other than the protection of a higher ranking deity that can protect a non-deity from the life and death salient divine ability.

Your wizard is going to have to find a way to get divine rank 0 or play one or another deity for a fool to gain protection. Taking on gods is exceedingly dangerous business, even by the standards of adventurers.

This. Your player needs to think politically and find a deity who will be willing to watch his back. This likely means that he's going to become a pawn of said deity, which will get him what he wants as long as he can please his patron.

[Psyren]

To take on a deity (especially a major deity) you should either be sponsored by a rival deity or have ranks yourself. Most "ascension" builds like Pun-Pun aim to get divine ranks as fast as possible because it's so hard to protect yourself without them unless another deity is in your corner.

[AdamantlyD20]

Does an ice assassin of a recently deceased (died in the presence of the PC's) have the power to confer divine ranks? Or must the creature be alive for ice assassin.

[Zanos]

Does an ice assassin of a recently deceased (died in the presence of the PC's) have the power to confer divine ranks? Or must the creature be alive for ice assassin.
An ice assassin has all the abilities of a creature it is based on, including the ability to invest divine ranks as per the rules for divine proxies.

Ice asassin is the pun-pun ascension method, IIRC.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

An ice assassin has all the abilities of a creature it is based on, including the ability to invest divine ranks as per the rules for divine proxies.

Ice asassin is the pun-pun ascension method, IIRC.

Of course, an *ice assassin* is a non-core spell that requires a piece of hair, nail, etc to be placed inside the statue, most GMs will require that material component even if you cast it from a scroll, and most GMs will rule that *ice assassin* can't grant divine ranks because it's a sub-epic spell. Even if your GM lets it work, getting the material component from a deity (or one of his/her favored followers) would be a quest of its own.

It's much more likely that your GM would allow you to research a level 9 or epic spell that would allow you to drain the power from a divine relic (especially a hair or blood from a deity) to gain that divine rank.

[Zanos]

Of course, an *ice assassin* is a non-core spell that requires a piece of hair, nail, etc to be placed inside the statue, most GMs will require that material component even if you cast it from a scroll, and most GMs will rule that *ice assassin* can't grant divine ranks because it's a sub-epic spell. Even if your GM lets it work, getting the material component from a deity (or one of his/her favored followers) would be a quest of its own.

It's much more likely that your GM would allow you to research a level 9 or epic spell that would allow you to drain the power from a divine relic (especially a hair or blood from a deity) to gain that divine rank.
DM fiat isn't the realm of RAW. The question was whether or not an Ice Assassin of a deity can confer divine ranks, and it can.

[Urpriest]

To put it another way, this is the DM, and he's scrambling for a way to make his characters able to challenge gods. So any of this may end up being allowed.

[afroakuma]

I'd turn to homebrew. It's more fun.

I devised a sword (it's always a sword, isn't it) of ultimate evil, known as Godless. Crafted using the spell evil weatherBoVD tuned to violet rain, it has the power to defy divine magic, severing connections to the gods and the divine. Of course it's got a hideous corruption effect, but things like that are shiny.

Have them ally with Pandorym, or unleash abominations to spread chaos and fear as gods challenge one another about the fates of their mutant progeny. Gods are epic; just have fun with the path there.

[Invader]

The simple fact of the matter is killing gods is great in books but when it comes to the mechanics of the game without some hand waving of rules or exceptionally high level PC's.

[Melcar]

What is the level and build of these so called God Slayers? And what gods are they challenging?

I would say that I personally have trouble believing that anyone mortal is going to take down an intermidiate deity. Even Larloch and the Srisnhee (forgotten realms) would have trouble doing that. So please tell us some more about the setup!

Edit: If you are high enough level, you could Gate in a Hecatoncheires.

[AdamantlyD20]

The ring leader is a wizard with the locate city snowcasting, born of three thunders, energy substitute, flashfrost, explosive spell nuke who has buffed CL and the save DC to ridiculous levels, requiring a DC 41 save. Also the party has dedicated buffer and debuffer as well as one that can Polymorph any object and transform into anything with 30 or fewer HD

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. Well, the major problem is getting at a god. They live in their own little ideal paradise, where the laws of reality bend to their whims. Unless you can get a god to totally leave their bastion (and since they can send avatars, why the hell would they leave), you probably aren't going to be able to kill it.

I'm a bit unclear on the precise level of control implied by the divinely morphic planar trait, but my understanding is that it's pretty profound. If the gods can tweak the functioning of magic within their realm, then that pretty much puts the kibosh on like 99% of everything that's even remotely plausible.

In short, do you want your players to succeed or not? Divine ascension is usually a campaign capstone, and if you are open to this being the last-hurrah before the characters are retired, well, go for it.

Otherwise, the gods should probably drop the proverbial hammer on these silly upstarts. I mean...another wizard with the locate city bomb? Does mass murder make him feel special? Cause it isn't deity-grade shenanigans by a longshot.

Maybe up to demon lord-level, but, really, nah. Orcus eats cities for lunch.

[zlefin]

the pcs should start small, and take out some demigods or weak lesser deities in a way that lets them steal/absorb their divine ranks.
Life and death is a nasty ability, but it's not going to be on that many lesser deities unless they're portfolio strongly indicates it.
Once they've stolen divine ranks off some of those chumps they can move on to bigger fish.

[AdamantlyD20]

The players have telepathy and do not communicate out loud as to not give any information To anyone they don't want to know. In a single turn, theoretically the locate city bomb specialist (never seen the spell used) can deal upwards of 12 million damage in a turn. I have warned them about the abuse. They already have a piece of a deity. One was killed in front of them by a 20th level wizard NPC who was swiftly killed by the PC's. They have a pound of hair. This was unintentional. Seeing that Gods can die has prompted the PC's to go on a Deity hunt

[Zanos]

the pcs should start small, and take out some demigods or weak lesser deities in a way that lets them steal/absorb their divine ranks.
Life and death is a nasty ability, but it's not going to be on that many lesser deities unless they're portfolio strongly indicates it.
Once they've stolen divine ranks off some of those chumps they can move on to bigger fish.
You have to be at least a lesser deity to pick up Life and Death, so demigods can't have it.

They can still get Hand of Death, but that offers a save anyway. I can't imagine a locate city bomb wizard not having a high enough save to autopass on anything but a 1 anyway.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

The players have telepathy and do not communicate out loud as to not give any information To anyone they don't want to know. In a single turn, theoretically the locate city bomb specialist (never seen the spell used) can deal upwards of 12 million damage in a turn. I have warned them about the abuse. They already have a piece of a deity. One was killed in front of them by a 20th level wizard NPC who was swiftly killed by the PC's. They have a pound of hair. This was unintentional. Seeing that Gods can die has prompted the PC's to go on a Deity hunt

Sounds awesome. I'm sure they could get a deity of chaos to sponsor them and help them perform a ritual that will give them all divine rank. Perhaps one with good tendencies will attempt to redirect them towards killing the more evil parts of the pantheon.

Also, I don't think the divine rank rules are all that great. You might want to consider the Pathfinder rules for Mythic characters. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic

[Melcar]

Unless you are Tippy optimized and are fighting demi gods, how is a level 20 able to take down a deity.

Do tell... also please tell what deity.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you are Tippy optimized and are fighting demi gods, how is a level 20 able to take down a deity.

Do tell... also please tell what deity.

If I was to hazard a guess, it was probably an avatar of an ascended mortal. As divinities go that's about as weak as they get. Still frighteningly strong though.

[Alleran]

If I was to hazard a guess, it was probably an avatar of an ascended mortal. As divinities go that's about as weak as they get. Still frighteningly strong though.
There's that level 20 Expert deity Imhotep in Deities & Demigods. He's only DvR 1 or something to that effect.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's that level 20 Expert deity Imhotep in Deities & Demigods. He's only DvR 1 or something to that effect.

Since almost no one uses the Egyptian pantheon I tend to ignore his existence. Still, prismatic sphere at will.

[Crake]

It's easy, just enter the presence of a god and just start saying "HasturHasturHasturHasturHastur" over and over. Won't be long before the god is dead... you with them, but hey, nobody said anything about you surviving the god's death?

[Invader]

It probably would be more helpful to know everyone's exact build and precisely which God you're trying to kill. I suppose it's feasible to kill your way up the divine ranks absorbing portfolios and increasing your own divine rank like in Faerun.

[marcielle]

Gods are powered by number of believers, right(I remember reading something where number of followers decided your divine rank or something like that)? Jumplomancying to convert people to your religion might work for quite a while. The whole existence of Razmiran priests is proof gods won't, or maybe even can't, just strike down anyone trying to convince people they are gods. Get a jumplomancer and a few wizards, take over some major cities, preferably ones with large stadiums and have the jumplomancer do their thing. Eventually, you will have enough followers to become god of SPECTACULARNESS or whatever. Jumplomancer can now give the wizards divine ranks.
Of course, there's always the Elder Evils. Pledging yourself to one might put you outside of a gods radar so long as you are working towards their goals(most of them want the gods dead anyway). If you have a way of dodging the resultant chaos, Pandorym pretty much initiates a God Annihilation Wave upon being released.

[Melcar]

I think that by knowing the particular deity they are going after, we could give better input.

[AdamantlyD20]

In our setting there are no evil "gods" but there are evil beings with power that rivals that of the gods. It seems like any evil that has power is what they're after. For simplicity, treat evil deities as gods, that are fluffed in our setting as something else. The campaign is semi post apocalyptic, and darkness/evil is spreading. I think that the desire of the group is ultimately to stop the spread of evil and the further destruction of the world. That said, i am thinking that they will primarily target evil deities or anything that would lend evil a helping hand.

[Zweisteine]

To defeat the gods, without being god, you'll need allies. You'll need a traitor god on your side, or something equivalent.

I'd probably build a diplomancer (or something similarly useful, if diplomacy is nerfed), and go to the Fiends. I wound play the role of the IFCC, uniting Baatezu, Tanar'ri, and Yugoloth in a massive strike against all that is Good (and evil!).

I would then find a way to steal a god's divine ranks when it dies (they talk about that in Deities & Demigods, I believe), and get as many as I could. With my newfound power, I would rally the remaining forces of good around me (how? diplomancy.), turn the Fiends against each other once more, and wait. Once the fiends had weakened each other enough, I would eliminate their lords, and claim supreme lordship over the multiverse, unless there's an overdeity. In that case, I'd set up subordinate deities to replace the old ones, and hope I didn't make anyone higher up too mad.

Don't forget that deicide is a world-changing event. Religions might collapse as clerics' magic fails, and entire faiths would collapse. It is likely that the material plane would turn into chaos. Druids would be the largest source of divine magic, until more clerics began to worship concepts, or my new minigods.

And more stuff too, but that would take too long to type.



In our setting there are no evil "gods" but there are evil beings with power that rivals that of the gods. It seems like any evil that has power is what they're after. For simplicity, treat evil deities as gods, that are fluffed in our setting as something else. The campaign is semi post apocalyptic, and darkness/evil is spreading. I think that the desire of the group is ultimately to stop the spread of evil and the further destruction of the world. That said, i am thinking that they will primarily target evil deities or anything that would lend evil a helping hand.
Knowing that, a better idea might be to petition the good gods for help. Go to them and say how much the Material Plane is suffering, and ask for their help. Especially if they are the type of god to derive power from worship (but even if they aren't), the gods of Good* would at least want to help (unless they mean to redo creation**).

*Especially racial gods, who would want to protect their "children."
**In that case, convince them that Evil will be able to influence a new world more than the current one.

[Sith_Happens]

To defeat the gods, without being god, you'll need a cool artifact.

Hint hint.:smallwink:

[Bogardan_Mage]

Edit: If you are high enough level, you could Gate in a Hecatoncheires.
What questionable power Hecatoncheires once had to live up to their fluff as god-slayers, they lost it in the 3.5 conversion.