SHADOW POUNCE! (teach the controversy)

[GhengisConrad]

Shadowpounce relevant rule text:

"Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her shadow ride ability), she can execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation."

Full-Round Actions from the SRD state: A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step."

Listed directly beneath it is the type of action called 'Full Attack'.

I submit.

If you use any teleportation spell and then can make an attack, you gain an opportunity to instead of doing whatever you would normally have time to do, execute a full attack, sure, but that full attack itself is not some how hastened, and therefor takes a full round.

I would argue that it works much like a normal pounce, substituting the charge action for teleportation.

Furthermore, This is an issue just like Battle Jump. If I could fall over and over and over again onto some new (or through some dimensional wormhole whynot, the same) opponent, would I be able to pounce on him over and over again if I have the pounce ability?

I would think not!

Go ahead. Let's have at this one.

Curmudgeon, I"m invoking your name here! Can I count on at least you to agree with me?

[nedz]

It would be helpful if you could tell us where the Shadowpounce text you're quoting comes from ?

[GhengisConrad]

Either class feature is the same wording more or less. The one I am quoting is Crinti Shadow Maurader

Shadowlord reads like this: "Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation"

[Kaje]

Key phrase is "any time." That means that even if he's otherwise out of actions, he can still make a full attack.

[AmberVael]

If you use any teleportation spell and then can make an attack, you gain an opportunity to instead of doing whatever you would normally have time to do, execute a full attack, sure, but that full attack itself is not some how hastened, and therefor takes a full round.

The problem with your interpretation is right here. If, as you say, Shadow Pounce doesn't allow you to make a full attack "hastened," then you run into an issue- namely, the only teleportation that makes this ability work is swift action teleportation. Because hey, it never says that you get to combine your teleportation action with the full attack, only that you can make a full attack after teleporting. So you have to take your teleport action and the full attack action. If they wanted to combine it, the wording would be "as a full round action you may teleport and then make a full attack."

This problem makes things fall apart, because if only swift teleportation makes it work then the ability does nothing.

[GhengisConrad]

Key phrase is "any time." That means that even if he's otherwise out of actions, he can still make a full attack.

I'm not saying that running out of actions makes him unable to make an attack. I'm saying making a full attack makes him run out of actions.

[nedz]

I'm not sure what your question is ?

Shadow Pounce means that you dim door/teleport/etc. and then get a full round attack.

One exploit is to be able to dim door/teleport/etc. as a free action for multiple full attacks per round, are you trying to pull this one off ?

Getting Battle Jump to stack will depend upon whether you have to land on a surface, which is down to the type of dim door/teleport/etc. you are using.

[GhengisConrad]

I'm not sure what your question is ?




One exploit is to be able to dim door/teleport/etc. as a free action for multiple full attacks per round, are you trying to pull this one off ?


I'm trying to say that this 'exploit' is not a valid way to play, because a full attack uses a full round, so if you have any actions left after teleporting, they are in effect 'used' by the full attack.

Consider, it also doesn't say 'you can make a full attack and then move'. If I where to use a normal dim door, that is a standard action, and I would still have a move action left.

This move action is instead 'consumed' by the full attack action.

QED ShadowPouncing nets only one full attack per round.

[Piggy Knowles]

Again, the relevant text is "Any time she uses..."

Compare to Battle Jump, since the sticking point for you seems to be that a lot of people don't believe you can multi-pounce with Battle Jump.

If Battle Jump said:

"Any time you simply drop from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent, you can execute a charge attack..."

...as shadowpounce says, then it would be a different story. If it was worded like that, you could multi-pounce by finding a way to drop on your enemy multiple times per round.

However, Battle Jump just says that you can execute a charge by simply dropping on your opponent (rather than actually charging them). It even gives you pretty sizable bonuses for doing so - but it doesn't say that any time you drop on an opponent, you get a charge. Instead, it gives you a new way to charge, but keeps all other rules the same.

Does that make sense? Battle Jump is pretty poorly written all around, so I don't blame the confusion. (It's also impossible to qualify for by RAW, so there's that.)

[Nettlekid]

A full attack is usually a full-round action. However, Shadow Pounce (and regular Pounce) is a case where specific trumps general, and you get the special ability to do it in not-a-full-round-action. This is not the only time this happens in D&D. Look at the Factotum, with Cunning Surge. You can get several standard actions in one turn. If you had Boots of the Battle Charger (perhaps a few sets) and Pounce, you could be using those standard actions to make charges and full attacks. Several. In one turn. The item Belt of Battle allows you to gain a full-round action at the cost of a swift. You could do a full round charge and full attack (if you had Pounce), swift action activation, and another full round charge and full attack. If you rolled really well, the maneuver Avalanche of Blades could let you attack many, many times. More than two full attacks. The D&D rounds have never translated to actual time very well. You are indeed doing much more in 6 seconds than most beings should be able to do. You are also teleporting through shadow. So. You know. Logic hangs its head.

This is sort of the opposite of the argument I was having in another thread about Genesis not being able to control time traits because the spell doesn't say you can. Shadow Pounce lets you make a full attack because it explicitly says you can, at any time, when you use a teleport effect. There is no other qualifier. Now, Dimension Door is an interesting case because that spell specifically states that your turn ends after you use it, and then Shadow Pounce cuts in and says "actually you can make a full attack," but then your turn ends as usual for Dimension Door. But for other teleport effects like the Shadow ______ maneuvers or Flicker, sky's the limit. There is no need to have some kind of "effective full-round action" to expend for the use of the full attack, nor does the full attack subsume any other action. You get it for free. It's there.

[nedz]

There are similar exploits with Quickened Lion's Charge and Quickened SLA Eldritch Glaive.

I think that the RAW can be read either way, which isn't helpful.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm not saying that running out of actions makes him unable to make an attack. I'm saying making a full attack makes him run out of actions.

This is not what the rules text you've quoted says. It says that a character may take a specific action (a full attack) after taking an action which would activate the ability (namely, using a [teleportation] ability). It does not reduce the number of actions a character otherwise has available. You will note that the rules text does not say "Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her shadow ride ability), she may use her other actions to execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation," or other such language, which would make the character in question out of actions. Essentially, Shadow Jump allows a character to exceed the normal number of actions in a round.

As to Battle Jump, the text reads "You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent." Therefore any time you drop from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent, you can execute a charge, even if you would not normally be able to do so. Combining that with Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce) means that, since a character can execute a charge any time they drop from a height of at least 5 feet above their opponent, any time they do so they may execute a full attack. This also allows a character to exceed the normal number of actions in a round.

Battle Jump does not limit itself to only one situation in which the character drops from at least 5 feet above their opponent, therefore I contend that it allows the character to charge any time the "drop from at least 5 feet above the opponent" requirement is met. Piggy Knowles and I obviously disagree on this, but I feel their reading of Battle Jump is not supported by the language itself (I see no text limiting this to "on your action" or "as a standard action" or "only on your turn"). Thus the more open reading wins out.

[GhengisConrad]

So, since dim door is a standard action, after taking a full attack after using dim door, I get a full move round as well?

[Kaje]

No. If you use Dimension Door to Shadowpounce, once your full attack is resolved you can no longer do anything that round. Because that's just how Dimension Door works.

[AmberVael]

You could, however, take a move action and a swift action and then use your standard action on dimension door to activate shadow pounce and get a full attack.

[Emperor Tippy]

No. If you use Dimension Door to Shadowpounce, once your full attack is resolved you can no longer do anything that round. Because that's just how Dimension Door works.

Arguably you can't even take your Full Attack.

Dim Door says "no more actions until your next turn" and Shadow Pounce doesn't specifically override that.

It's the big reason that Dim Door really kinda sucks.

In higher level play I just prepare Teleport for my Dim Door purposes because that doesn't stop me from casting Immediate Action spells afterward.

[Darrin]

Dim Door says "no more actions until your next turn" and Shadow Pounce doesn't specifically override that.


Telflammar Shadowlord gets an exception for his Shadow Jump ability, which is based on dimension door. For Crinti Shadow Marauder, it's called Shadow Ride, but the text specifically says you can execute a full attack after using it. Since the text talks very generally about all abilities/spells/effects with the teleportation descriptor and then specifically says Shadow Jump/Ride works even though it's based on dimension door, you can argue that all types of dimension door will work with Shadow Pounce. So it's an exception to the "can't take any other actions" rule.

I'm not sure if you call this "specific trumps general" or "the designer/editor forgot to check the text of dimension door".

[AmberVael]

Does it even count as taking actions for the purposes of Dimension Door if it doesn't take any actions to do it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Then of course, there's Shadowcaster's Flicker ability for interrupt-action teleportation every round for the duration of the ability. Which synergizes so well with shadow-pounce.

The round works as follows:

1) Make my full round of actions, this is probably a non-shadow type regular Pounce for a full attack.

2) Now that I've executed all of my normal actions, I Flicker to the other side of my opponent, and Shadow Pounce him for a second full round attack.

-or-

2a) Now that I've executed all of my normal actions, I end my turn. When my opponent tries to attack me, I use it as an Immediate Action to Flicker behind him, giving me a 50% Chance of not being hit by his attack, and giving me an immediate full-attack action on his turn.

This also plays fair with the 'no more actions after DimDoor', because the Shadow Pounce is going last in this scenario.

There's also the WRT/Idiot Crusader + Blink Shirt bound to Totem Chakra for NI full round actions (because WRT explicitly states giving you actions which supersedes DimDoor's 'anything not used is gone' clause). But that requires a battle buddy to pull off.

[GhengisConrad]

Nope, sorry. D&D is an exception-based rules system. Battle Jump Shadowpounce is an exception to how the normal charge teleportation rules work.

Does Battle Jump ShadowPounce say it changes the type of action required for a chargefull attack? No? Then it doesn't. It lets you full attack at the conclusion of a teleportation, in exception to what you would normally be able to do (somewhere between nothing and a full round).

[ExcessiveFarce]

Nope, sorry. D&D is an exception-based rules system. Battle Jump Shadowpounce is an exception to how the normal charge teleportation rules work.

Does Battle Jump ShadowPounce say it changes the type of action required for a chargefull attack? No? Then it doesn't. It lets you full attack at the conclusion of a teleportation, in exception to what you would normally be able to do (somewhere between nothing and a full round).

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. I'll first try to summarize your position as I understand it; feel free to correct me. "Since the ability doesn't say your full attack can be performed at a cost lower than a standard+move, full attacks from shadow pounce continue to cost standard+move."

Assuming that I did understand your position correctly, there's only one reason for the Shadow Pounce ability to exist: when combined with swift action, Dimension Door based teleports (since Shadow Pounce overrides the 'no actions until next turn' clause of Dimension Door.) In and of itself, I can almost see where you're coming from, until one considers regular Pounce.



Pounce(Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack-- including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Following the same interpretation ("it doesn't say the full attack costs less than a standard+move, so it still costs a standard+move") means that Pounce is actually 100% useless. It serves no purpose whatsoever-- if the creature had a standard and a move action left after already spending the standard and move actions necessary to charge, *it could have performed a full attack anyway.* You're trying to tell me that the Pounce (Ex) block on every monster ever is a complete and utter waste of space masquerading as a useful ability, some sort of developer-level noob trap. (Amusingly enough, even if the creature had some way to perform a full attack as a swift action, pounce under this interpretation would still be useless for the same reason.)

Once one considers the blatant disregard of logic involved in printing an ability that serves no purpose whatsoever, it's readily apparent to even the casual observer that this interpretation is wrong. It logically follows that, using similar wording, Shadow Pounce should function the same way as Pounce (read: actually function.)

[GhengisConrad]

I'm sorry if I am unclear.

I am not against ShadowPouncing.

I am trying to say that it is unRAW to have any 'remainder' actions after the completion of 1 full attack via ShadowPounce.

even simpler; Not against ShadowPounce, I am against Multi-Pouncing.

[ExcessiveFarce]

I'm sorry if I am unclear.

I am not against ShadowPouncing.

I am trying to say that it is unRAW to have any 'remainder' actions after the completion of 1 full attack via ShadowPounce.

even simpler; Not against ShadowPounce, I am against Multi-Pouncing.

This makes more sense to me than my prior understanding of your position, but it still raises some red flags regarding the action economy.

Basically you're saying that one is allowed to exceed your normal actions in a given turn via pounce-type effects, such as by using a regular Charge attack on a foe followed by a Quickened Dimension Door Shadow Pounce. However, you're saying that characters, once exceeding their allotted actions for their turn, immediately forfeit any remainder of their turn. Effectively, characters can accrue 'action debt' by spending more actions than they're allowed but the only penalty is that combat passes to the next character in initiative order.

The concern I see with this is that you're explicitly allowing characters to break the action economy in a manner functionally different from any other action economy breakers. To elaborate, the Factotum has the ability to gain a standard action, thereby exceeding his normal allowance of actions for the turn. It doesn't specify any restriction on how he spends this action he's gained-- it's just a typical standard action. However, he cannot go into 'action debt' by performing two full-round actions as described by your interpretation of Pounce/Shadow Pounce. Some similar abilities include the Ruby Knight Vindicator and the Hustle power; both allow you to gain or trade actions without restriction on their usage and neither allow you to enter so-called 'action debt.'

My instinct is to grasp at unified rules that cover general concepts rather than specific rules for each instance, so I'm inclined to resole this apparent disparity by saying that pouncing and shadowpouncing *create no disparity because they don't cost actions.* Unfortunately, while I love a good analysis of the system and ensuing rules discussion, I can't cite an instance for A) allowing Pounce effects to enter action debt, or B) preventing action debt by stating that Pounce effects aren't costed actions. Perhaps another poster can lay this matter to rest, but I'm satisfied that at least your position makes sense to me now.