Which is technically better?

[Macabros]

Which of these are the best Caster or Manifester. Like in the When is a Sorcerer better then a Wizard you can give examples and the like.

Sorcerer
Wizard
Psion
Erudite (StP or not)

I am curious because the ability to ignore foci and stuff seem to give the Psionics an edge and of course the Wizards full access to the Wiz/Sorc spell list gives it a huge benefit, the Spontaneous casting of the Psion, Sorcerer, and Erudite seem to be best if you dont get time to prepare but the Wizards ability to change it up daily would be a benefit to all.

So which of those is strictly better?

[ryu]

Is psionic reformation allowed? If so spell to power erudite because it has access to psionics, pretty much most if not all the spells in the game, and some of the most hilarious shenanigans like an unlimited supply of constant time-stop.

[Macabros]

Well we will try to keep our cheese in check but reformation is not out of bounds if the others can do similar (Dark chaos shuffle?)

[ryu]

Well we will try to keep our cheese in check but reformation is not out of bounds if the others can do similar (Dark chaos shuffle?)

Yeah that's good cheese. I'm not saying that all of the above can't hang with each other if done properly in terms of optimization. I'm just saying the Erudite has the easiest time being a disgusting person even by tier one standards. They can all get to that point though.

[Psyren]

Psion is technically the most powerful as you can gain all the abilities of the spellcasters, without components, all stored in your head and cast spontaneously without any form of daily limit. It takes significant cheese however.

[Slipperychicken]

So which of those is strictly better?

In practice, when you're dealing with high-op Tier 1s, player skill is going to matter much more than anything differentiating those classes.

[Lightlawbliss]

which is better? The one the person playing it enjoys the most.

[Macabros]

Psyren exactly how is this?

And how powerful is the Pyren compared to the Erudite without lots of cheese.

[ryu]

Psyren exactly how is this?

And how powerful is the Pyren compared to the Erudite without lots of cheese.

Well I imagine Psyren is most likely best modeled as a commoner or perhaps an expert. Either way he's probably well under level 5 and completely non-magical. I can only speculate on the power of his psion build though.

[Psyren]

Psyren exactly how is this?

In a nutshell:

- StP Erudite converts arcane spells into powers
- you can turn divine spells into arcane spells with Alternative Source Spell, Southern Magician and other methods.
- Therefore StP Erudite can learn all spells and convert them into powers.
- Psychic Chirurgery lets any manifester teach any power he knows to another manifester, even if that power is not on their list.
- So you basically get an StP Erudite, load him up with every spell known to man, and have him teach all of them to a Psion.

The Psion thus will learn every spell and power in the game. Furthermore, he can use them without the Erudite's drawbacks - his "spells" won't need verbal, somatic or material components, and he has no limit on unique powers per day.



And how powerful is the Pyren compared to the Erudite without lots of cheese.

Without cheese the Psion is still slightly stronger, especially at low levels when an Erudite's UPD are almost cripplingly low.

[Gemini476]

Without cheese the Psion is still slightly stronger, especially at low levels when an Erudite's UPD are almost cripplingly low.

Out of interest, what interpretation do you use for UPD? I remember there being several mutually incompatible interpretations, including one that was basically uses/power/day IIRC.

[Macabros]

Ah I see. So the only way for a Psion to be that powerful is if an Erudite does it first.

And yes at very low levels the Erudite is all but a crippled class. But at level 20 it is beyond any other with its 99 powers per level (Text does read unique powers per level per day indicating this, Table does not refute this but does not confirm either)

A psion has a limit though, his power points per day.

I know there are tricks to make PP infinite, how is this?

[Psyren]

Out of interest, what interpretation do you use for UPD? I remember there being several mutually incompatible interpretations, including one that was basically uses/power/day IIRC.

I don't use any of them. The table is likely the intended one but is way too restrictive, while both of the text ones are far too many for the limitation to be meaningful. I use the Ardent powers known progression as UPD instead. (2 at 1st-level, +1 each level up to 21) - small enough to mean something but large enough to give you options during the day.



I know there are tricks to make PP infinite, how is this?

There's several, check the tricks handbook in my sig.

[Macabros]

Well even the Erudite has the restriction of PP which while yes easily overcome with tricks and so forth it is an intended restriction.

Psyren how do you think a StP Erudite//Factotum or Erudite//Warblade would work out?

[Psyren]

Well even the Erudite has the restriction of PP which while yes easily overcome with tricks and so forth it is an intended restriction.

PP is a separate issue from powers known, just like spells/day are separate from spells known. In my opinion, casters need both limits to be meaningful, even if all they ultimately mean is that the caster spends resources like wealth overcoming both.


Psyren how do you think a StP Erudite//Factotum or Erudite//Warblade would work out?

Anywhere from Good to Phenomenal depending on power/maneuver choice and player skill.

While an Erudite or Psion can be easy to mess up, Warblade and Factotum are much less so.

[Macabros]

What is the name of the Trick that allows the pp recharge?

Hmm Interesting.,

Which of the two is slightly better? The Factotums massive skill boost with Iaijustu tricks or Warblade, good HD, BAB, Fort saves, etc

The Factotums Spell-Like Abilities or the Warblades Maneuvers?

[Psyren]

Which one is better depends on the type of campaign you're in. There is no definitive answer there.

"MoI Recharge" and "Power Surge" are the two simpler ones. The Mental Pinnacle, Azure Talent and Affinity Field ones seem to be missing, I'll ask KA about those.

[Macabros]

The Mental Pinnacle is the one I heard about and its not on your list.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why choose?

Erudite 20// Factotum 8/ Warblade 12 makes for an absurdly good build. Huzzah for multiple standard actions.

[Kraken]

As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost. Spells with expensive material components (non-negligible) require you to spend an additional 2 power points when manifesting the spell in lieu of the material components. If you happen to have the material components, no additional power point cost is assessed. Spells with a focus are treated the same as those with a material component. If the spell has an expensive material component and a focus, the additional power point cost would be 4.

Verbal and somantic components don't go away, but strangely material components and focuses, even expensive ones, do. Not quite as awesome as it's being made out to be, but still pretty darned good.

[Silva Stormrage]

Verbal and somantic components don't go away, but strangely material components and focuses, even expensive ones, do. Not quite as awesome as it's being made out to be, but still pretty darned good.

Don't powers just have a blanket "No material components" somewhere in the XPH? I can't seem to find it ATM.

[TuggyNE]

Don't powers just have a blanket "No material components" somewhere in the XPH? I can't seem to find it ATM.

Powers have no components at all*, verbal, somatic, or material. But that's the general rule, and STP is the specific, so STP's rules take precedence.

*OK, some have XP, and all have displays, but those don't count.

[Rubik]

Well I imagine Psyren is most likely best modeled as a commoner <snip>Commoners are uneducated dirt farmers, the poorest of the poor in 3rd world countries. Everyone with anything resembling a decent education should be an expert, if not a PC class.

[Petrocorus]

The Erudite power also depend greatly on how you're DM reads the UP/D limit.
If that's X unique power per level per day like says the text, then it's basically a Psion without a Powers Known limit, really powerful. If that's X unique power per day, like says the table, then the Erudite is a Wilder who can change his power known each day, and that's really limited until high level.
And there are not so much ways to by pass that limitation. Even with StP.

[Psyren]

Well I imagine Psyren is most likely best modeled as a commoner or perhaps an expert. Either way he's probably well under level 5 and completely non-magical. I can only speculate on the power of his psion build though.

I was a deity in that other thread dammit!


The Erudite power also depend greatly on how you're DM reads the UP/D limit.
If that's X unique power per level per day like says the text, then it's basically a Psion without a Powers Known limit, really powerful. If that's X unique power per day, like says the table, then the Erudite is a Wilder who can change his power known each day, and that's really limited until high level.
And there are not so much ways to by pass that limitation. Even with StP.

Once you hit 13 you can bypass it easily with Soul Crystal or Metaconcert. Before then yeah, you really feel the pinch.

[Petrocorus]

Once you hit 13 you can bypass it easily with Soul Crystal or Metaconcert. Before then yeah, you really feel the pinch.

I don't find Soul Crystal?

[Rubik]

I don't find Soul Crystal?It's a power in Magic of Incarnum. It basically allows you to create a temporary, modified power stone (psionic scroll) which contains 2x your ML in power points and that anyone can use.

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't find Soul Crystal?

Magic of Incarnum.

The real fun with it is that it will let you shorten the casting time of any spell or power in the entire game down to a standard action.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

I never got the confusion. The text states "Unlike a Psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of psionic powers of each level per day from, the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level"
[Paraphrasing so not to copy and paste]

The table does not refute it, but is not as clear. So you go with the clearer of the two. Is it a bad idea to give 99 powers at level 20 probably so but its pretty clear that was the intent.

[Emperor Tippy]

The table does not refute it, but is not as clear. So you go with the clearer of the two. Is it a bad idea to give 99 powers at level 20 probably so but its pretty clear that was the intent.

Except that the creator of the Erudite variant has publicly and explicitly said that the table is correct and that they misprinted Complete Psionics.

It's one of the relatively few things that we actually know, outright, what the rules were intended to be.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Well the creator of the Dvati did not actually know what they were going to do with the race when Wizards got it and printed it.

So while the original creator might have intended a non-class in the Erudite but an editor changed it without forsight to see what it would actually do.

After all with 11 powers a day the ranger or paladin can outcast the erudite.

[Petrocorus]

Well the creator of the Dvati did not actually know what they were going to do with the race when Wizards got it and printed it.

So while the original creator might have intended a non-class in the Erudite but an editor changed it without forsight to see what it would actually do.

After all with 11 powers a day the ranger or paladin can outcast the erudite.

The UP/D thing is broken anyway, in one way or the other. If we follow the text, it's far too much to be balanced, especially compared to the Psion. If we follow the table (and the writer), the Erudite is barely unplayable before high level or before he can abuse Metaconcert. Just like the Wilder, but a bit less bad.
A simple solution is to consider UP per Day, not per level per day, but with the Powers Known progression of the Ardent, up to 21 UP/D at lvl 20. That would be more balance compared to the Psion and more playable than the Wilder, even at low level. But of course, that would be a home rule.

[Emperor Tippy]

After all with 11 powers a day the ranger or paladin can outcast the erudite.

11 unique powers per day. The Erudite variant still has the same number of power points as a Psion.

If you go with the text then the Erudite has 99 unique powers per day. As in pick 9 powers for each power level for the day.

It's so utterly absurd that I can't properly express how absurd it is without running afoul of the forum rules.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Ok I am not saying that 11 powers at will a day is not powerful it is. But to have any versatility they would need to lock in lower level powers.

Basically the Erudite is a really odd form of Sorcerer.

Yes a 99 powers per day is insanely high and no you could not without doing a infinite pp trick use 99 powers per day or even close.

The probably is that it is so restrictive that you would be screwed if your DM ran a random encounter that you needed to see a slot on. If it was a random Ice Elemental for example and you have to use a power to focus in on its weakness and then for the rest of the day you do not run into another you have a useless or at least severally reduced useful power.

Now yes 99 powers leaves you wide the heck open but you are never gonna fill all those slots with unique powers.

[Psyren]

The table does not refute it, but is not as clear. So you go with the clearer of the two. Is it a bad idea to give 99 powers at level 20 probably so but its pretty clear that was the intent.

The intent was clearly eleven. Note the Epic Erudite entry:


Unique Powers: An epic erudite's number of unique powers per day continues to increase after 20th level, but at a reduced rate. At 25th level and every five levels thereafter, an erudite can manifest one additional unique power. Thus, a 25th-level erudite can manifest twelve unique powers per day, a 30th-level erudite can manifest thirteen unique powers per day, and so on.

Note it says "per day" rather than the silly "per level per day" from the pre-epic erudite. "One additional = twelve" means that the maximum truly was meant to be eleven.

They wrote it badly and we have to live with that, but claiming they intended it to be 99 is false.

(Amusingly, this means that if you go with the "99" interpretation, that your UPD will drastically drop in epic.)

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Or they could have simply made a typo in the epic version by forgetting to add the per level addition.

I am not saying it should be a 99 powers per level per day. My point is that 11 is crippled.

So yes unless we dip into homebrew we are stuck with two ends of the spectrum. Crippled and barely playable at one end and with so much freedom that you could never ever test it fully.

You can make 11 UP/D work but lower levels are basically unplayable unless you are in a gestalt campaign.

[Psyren]

Or they could have simply made a typo in the epic version by forgetting to add the per level addition.

Six times? Compared to the lone "of each level" reference in the standard entry? Which is more likely to be the typo (or read differently than they intended)?


I am not saying it should be a 99 powers per level per day. My point is that 11 is crippled.

And I agree - which is why, if I'm going to fix it anyway, I'm going to use a number that improves the situation while still imposing a meaningful limit. (Again, the Ardent progression does this nicely.)

[Emperor Tippy]

No, 11 is not crippled.

It would be crippled if you had to pick all of your powers for the day at one time but you don't. You pick whatever power suits the challenge that you are facing until you have picked up to your limit, at which point you have to figure out how to use what you have already picked to solve your problem.

Yes, an Erudite plays different than most other casts but it is not remotely crippled.

Especially if you have another Psionic character in the party. You can use them to grab daily buffs from without having to spend unique daily powers on them.

---
Although the most fun is probably Factotum 8/ Erudite 3/ Ardent 2/ X 7

Erudite 3/ Ardent 2 gives you the native ability to pick up all the Psion powers in the game of 8th level or lower (and manifest them) for five levels.

[Psyren]

11 is not crippled, but you don't get 11 until late levels. When you only have 1 UPD, it's indeed very painful to play, and the pain only starts to subside slightly once you hit 4 or so. A single social encounter or recon mission at low levels can make you useless in combat or vice versa.

[ericgrau]

Which of these are the best Caster or Manifester. Like in the When is a Sorcerer better then a Wizard you can give examples and the like.

Sorcerer
Wizard
Psion
Erudite (StP or not)

I am curious because the ability to ignore foci and stuff seem to give the Psionics an edge and of course the Wizards full access to the Wiz/Sorc spell list gives it a huge benefit, the Spontaneous casting of the Psion, Sorcerer, and Erudite seem to be best if you dont get time to prepare but the Wizards ability to change it up daily would be a benefit to all.

So which of those is strictly better?
Well there are more high optimization tricks for wizard and StP Erudite. Then I think next is sorcerer, erudite, then psion.

But in more common casual games without high optimization it's a little different. When the wizard doesn't have advanced notice of what he should prepare the sorcerer has the advantage. Except at level 5, because 3rd level spells are a big jump. Psions also have the advantage in damage dealing which matters for more casual games. Not sure if it's enough to bump them over the other two, but it brings them close together.

[Emperor Tippy]

11 is not crippled, but you don't get 11 until late levels. When you only have 1 UPD, it's indeed very painful to play, and the pain only starts to subside slightly once you hit 4 or so. A single social encounter or recon mission at low levels can make you useless in combat or vice versa.

Yes, the lower levels are more painful.

The Erudite is a class with a very low floor and is what I call a high skill class in that it requires high player skill to use effectively.

It's still not crippled as part of a party at lower levels though. Going solo it suffers a bit but even then it isn't that bad. Especially if you are playing Spell to Power.

[Psyren]

Well there are more high optimization tricks for wizard and StP Erudite. Then I think next is sorcerer, erudite, then psion.

But in more common casual games without high optimization it's a little different. When the wizard doesn't have advanced notice of what he should prepare the sorcerer has the advantage. Except at level 5, because 3rd level spells are a big jump. Psions also have the advantage in damage dealing which matters for more casual games. Not sure if it's enough to bump them over the other two, but it brings them close together.

At the absolute highest levels of op-fu, Psion wins. Basically, it gets every benefit of the StP Erudite without any limits or components.


Yes, the lower levels are more painful.

The Erudite is a class with a very low floor and is what I call a high skill class in that it requires high player skill to use effectively.

It's still not crippled as part of a party at lower levels though. Going solo it suffers a bit but even then it isn't that bad. Especially if you are playing Spell to Power.

Agreed, as part of a party it performs much better even with the table UPD. It's just that party utility is rarely considered when measuring class power because the common wisdom goes that if they are good on their own they will be good in a group.

Personally I see several problems with this assumption (after all, this is ultimately a team game) but it is a common one nevertheless.

[Emperor Tippy]

Agreed, as part of a party it performs much better even with the table UPD. It's just that party utility is rarely considered when measuring class power because the common wisdom goes that if they are good on their own they will be good in a group.

Personally I see several problems with this assumption (after all, this is ultimately a team game) but it is a common one nevertheless.
It's an utterly idiotic assumption.

Besides D&D being built and premised around a group, in setting operating on your own is generally just stupid. Especially if you aren't a class that is good at doing just that.

Erudites are major force multipliers in that if no one else has a decent solution to a given problem then the Erudite will be able to pull one out. Is he going to normally use Psionic Knock? No. But when the party thief is dead/captured/unconscious/otherwise unavailable he can pull it out right then. If the wizard doesn't have Knock prepared then its at least 15 minutes until he can open the lock unless he is high enough level to Wish+Spell Engine.

Or the Cleric is down and dying. Well then the Erudite whips out Empathic Transfer and dumps enough of the damage onto himself to get the Cleric up and running again.

The Erudite is the jack of all trades, the ultimate batman.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Yes Indeed if your party is covering all the other bases and you are the 'slack man' then yes the Erudite's 1 power per day limit at level 1 is not as bad.

But you have to realize that at level 1 a Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Archivist, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, Druid all have multiple spells per day and access to level 0 spells as well.

An Erudite has access to a lot for sure but in the end can use 1 power. If he blows his load on a spell like Knock in a day with only 1 door then yes he is crippled because he is basically a commoner.

Yes if you are highly creative high levels of Erudite have virtually no issues in a party as you are the ultimate "Wait I got that" player except if your party has a Wizard or so in it then guess what they have those spells too and if they remotely build for a handful of spells with spell mastery and uncanny forthought then yes the Erudite still kinda sucks.

But using the Ardent progression is a Homebrew.
Yes fine maybe they intended it to be 1-11 per day. But even then to argue that the progression is not hopelessly crippled for 40% of the career of the player is just wrong.

But in low levels even in a group you are a commoner with a useful trick now and then. And don't say that is not true. If you were fighting Orcs all day long using mind affecting powers so at level 3 all you have is mind affecting powers active and then you run into just a handful of undead the Erudite is nothing more then a Commoner with the crossbow.

Yes if you run the ardent progression low levels would be a pain in the butt compared to any other caster. Your only saving grace is if you go StP and can use more then just psionics. StP should have been the standard Erudite not an online variant.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's not crippled. At least no more than any other first level character is.

Everything sucks at level 1.

A Wizard at first level gets 5 spells per day, total. A Psion at first level knows 2 powers total and can at best expect 5 daily manifestations total.

No caster is particularly good at the level 1-3 range.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Except that an Erudite can manifest 1 power without bonus PP twice in a day

[Emperor Tippy]

Except that an Erudite can manifest 1 power without bonus PP twice in a day

You always have bonus PP.

14 Int gets you a bonus PP. 18 Int gets you 2.

If you really care then take Hidden Talent at first level and you pick up another first level Power Known that you can always manifest and 2 more PP. Take Psionic Talent as well for another 2 PP. With 2 flaws and a human you can end up as an Erudite with two first level powers available for use and 19 PP per day.

2 (base) + 2 (18 Int) + 2 (Hidden Talent, ECL 1 feat) + 2 (Psionic Talent 1, Erudite bonus feat) + 3 (Psionic Talent 2, human bonus feat), + 4 (Psionic Talent 3, flaw) + 5 (Psionic Talent 4, flaw) for 19 total PP per day at ECL 1.

[Psyren]

It's an utterly idiotic assumption.

Besides D&D being built and premised around a group, in setting operating on your own is generally just stupid. Especially if you aren't a class that is good at doing just that.

Agreed - however, in-universe you may not have a choice. Bilbo didn't plan to be left on his own with Gollum, nor Frodo with Shelob. Gandalf likely didn't intend to solo a Balrog either. Sometimes these things happen.

Hell, in a psionic party UPD don't matter at all, the psyrogue/psywar or wilder can pull whatever out of the erudite's head with a couple of easy checks.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Yes if you work hard you can get a lot out of it but most do not focus on more PP.

Psyren I am curious which do you prefer for a class that is gonna be a rare psionic being in the game a Erudite or a Psion?

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes if you work hard you can get a lot out of it but most do not focus on more PP.
Psychic Reformation. 405 GP to pay someone to manifest it on you at level 5 and 125 XP from you and you get to repick all of your feats.

As I said, the Erudite is a high skill variant. It will screw you over if you aren't a good and knowledgeable enough player to work around its weaknesses.


Psyren I am curious which do you prefer for a class that is gonna be a rare psionic being in the game a Erudite or a Psion?

Psion is generally flat out better than Erudite unless you go with the 99 powers per day interpretation and don't allow the Psion to pick up all powers as powers known (which he can do with relative ease).

[UmpteenthDoctor]

And just how can the Psion gain all powers as powers known when he has a set powers known list?

And were you not just arguing that the 11 thing was not a crippled set?

[Emperor Tippy]

And just how can the Psion gain all powers as powers known when he has a set powers known list?
The greatest power ever, Psychic Chirurgery.

Use Psychic Reformation to get the feat Persistent Power. Manifest a Persistent Fission. Have your Fission use Psychic Reformation on its self to repick all of its powers and spend all of its feats on Expanded Knowledge. Have your Fission use Psychic Chirurgery to give you all of the powers that you want and yet don't have. End Fission.

Repeat until you have all powers. Technically this totally negates the XP cost. If your DM houserules otherwise, combine with a Thought Bottle to minimize the XP cost.

Then there is also just getting a Magic Mantle Ardent 1/ Cleric 1/ Wizard 1/ Dweomerkeeper 4 to use Supernatural Spell on Psychic Chirurgery and thus totally remove the XP cost. Or go Magic Mantle Ardent 2 while being a Mulan Human and take the feats Magical Training and Southern Magician as that qualifies you for Dweomerkeeper.


And were you not just arguing that the 11 thing was not a crippled set?
It's not. That doesn't change the fact that you have to really know what you are doing to work with it and be effective.

Erudite is not new player friendly, at all. Nor is it really unskilled player friendly, at all.

Psion on the other hand is quite new player friendly and generally quite hard to mess up even as a relatively unskilled player. At least once you figure out that Psychic Reformation lets you try out new powers until you find ones that work with your play style.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And just how can the Psion gain all powers as powers known when he has a set powers known list?

And were you not just arguing that the 11 thing was not a crippled set?

There's a difference between "difficult to work around" and "crippling." The former, which is what Tippy is calling the erudite's UPD, means that a character can be effective -if- you can actually work around the limitation. The latter means that the class is irretrievably weakened below a certain threshold and there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm in agreement with Tippy on this one. The UPD limitation is tough but hardly insurmountable. Imprint stone, the psionic equivalent to scribe scroll, works -very- nicely to circumvent this issue, much as its counterpart does for a wizard.

[UmpteenthDoctor]

Yes I am aware and yes if you throw that trick into the Psion it works. Honestly it should work for the Sorcerer too at least in a magic transparency campaign as the Sorcerer can work a lot like that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes I am aware and yes if you throw that trick into the Psion it works.

Well yes, you need something fairly extreme to overcome 99 powers known per day, chosen every day. Especially as there are only something like 500 Psion powers in 3.5 total. For example, the Expanded Psionics Handbook has a grand total of 16 9th level powers on the Psion list

And you want to claim that an Erudite is seriously supposed to get to pick 11 of those every day? When there are less than 30 9th level powers *total* in 3.5?


Honestly it should work for the Sorcerer too at least in a magic transparency campaign as the Sorcerer can work a lot like that.
No it really does not work for the Sorcerer at all, at least not unless he has the Magic Mantle.

I'm so tired of that persistent bit of fanon. It's like people can't be bothered to actually read the rules concerning transparency and actually learn what it means.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ahh... StP Erudite powers per day...

-The Complete Psionic gives the Erudite unique powers per day equal to 1+1/2 class level (rounded down) per level, This means a level 20 Erudite can manifest 99 unique powers a day, 11 per power level (!!!)

-A common claim of RAI is that the Erudite should have 1+1/2 class level unique powers per day, no matter the level.

-The Erudite from Dragon Magazine #319 version has this, where the first level you can manifest a new level power you can manifest one a day, the next two level you can manifest three a day, the next three you can manifest 3 a day and every level after that you can manifest 4 a day. (Exceptions being 8th level powers where you skip one level of manifesting only 2 a day and 9th level powers where every level from 17th to 20th increase the number you can manifest daily by one.)

-A common houserule has it as:
1 per level 1-10, 1/2 level 11-20. leaves 15 at 20, and adds an extra +1 at 1. So, some example NET unique powers per day, which changes depending on how many class levels associated with Erudite you have. Thus, as a class level 1 erudite, you have 2 unique powers per day. As a level 5, you have 6, as a level 10, you have 11, as a level 15 you have 13, as a level 20 you have 16.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
-A common houserule has it as:
1 per level 1-10, 1/2 level 11-20. leaves 15 at 20, and adds an extra +1 at 1. So, some example NET unique powers per day, which changes depending on how many class levels associated with Erudite you have. Thus, as a class level 1 erudite, you have 2 unique powers per day. As a level 5, you have 6, as a level 10, you have 11, as a level 15 you have 13, as a level 20 you have 16.

not to be rude, but for being common this is the first time I have ever even heard this. the closest thing I have heard to this is what you refer to as common RAI.

[DMVerdandi]

At a low-op, yet decently skilled level, Erudite IMO is best, and my personal favorite, especially with convert spell to power.

An easy way of getting more out of the class from mid to high range without suspect cheesiness is by using shadow spells. Shadow conjuration,evocation, and similar spells allow for whole spell schools and levels to be used.

Not having arcane spell failure, using pp, and not having to rely on material components helps a whole heap too. One can easily don armor for a nice AC boost later on, and pull out some seriously righteous spell/power combinations.

While the low levels can seem like suffering, so long as one simply uses the spells/powers that have multiple uses, it's fine. Psionics actually lends itself to blasting more than being a treantmonk-esque god at first, so just do that for a while.

The UPPD Isn't THAT bad.
Wilders have that many powers known permanently. Yes psychic reformation, but in the event that that goes out with the likes of other super potent things, it is SOL.

Also, pulling out persistent power works well. Manifest, sleep with a handy haversack, and go out buffed and ready to go.

[Petrocorus]

The greatest power ever, Psychic Chirurgery.

Use Psychic Reformation to get the feat Persistent Power. Manifest a Persistent Fission. Have your Fission..... for Dweomerkeeper.


This is awesome! The Dweomerkeeper trick is cheesy, but everything becomes cheesy with Dweomerkeeper. The Fission-Chirurgery trick is simply awesome.



And you want to claim that an Erudite is seriously supposed to get to pick 11 of those every day? When there are less than 30 9th level powers *total* in 3.5?


Nobody claims that this is supposed to be this way, we're claiming that this is the RAW. And that, as you say, the other interpretation is very difficult to work with.



I'm in agreement with Tippy on this one. The UPD limitation is tough but hardly insurmountable. Imprint stone, the psionic equivalent to scribe scroll, works -very- nicely to circumvent this issue, much as its counterpart does for a wizard.
What are the other means to surmount the limitation? Metaconcert, i think, but Soul Crystal shouldn't work by RAW, IMHO and i read a lot of people saying the Linked Power tricks doesn't work neither. The Arcane Fusion can maybe, if you have StP, but for other Erudite?

[Emperor Tippy]

Nobody claims that this is supposed to be this way, we're claiming that this is the RAW. And that, as you say, the other interpretation is very difficult to work with.

Whether it's RAW or not is somewhat iffy. What is not iffy, at all, is what is RAI. We have explicit, public, statements from the classes creator and author that the text is wrong and that it was an editing/printing error.

The reason that RAI is usually not relevant is because it can't actually be divined. This is one of the rare few instances where the rules as intended are known.

[Petrocorus]

Whether it's RAW or not is somewhat iffy. What is not iffy, at all, is what is RAI. We have explicit, public, statements from the classes creator and author that the text is wrong and that it was an editing/printing error.

The reason that RAI is usually not relevant is because it can't actually be divined. This is one of the rare few instances where the rules as intended are known.

I agree on this. But, as you said, most players are not able to work effectively with the RAI UP/D.

[Jack_Simth]

The greatest power ever, Psychic Chirurgery.

Use Psychic Reformation to get the feat Persistent Power. Manifest a Persistent Fission. Have your Fission use Psychic Reformation on its self to repick all of its powers and spend all of its feats on Expanded Knowledge. Have your Fission use Psychic Chirurgery to give you all of the powers that you want and yet don't have. End Fission.

Repeat until you have all powers. Technically this totally negates the XP cost. If your DM houserules otherwise, combine with a Thought Bottle to minimize the XP cost.Let's see...

First, that requires a 9th level specialist power known. So the minimum for this is 17th... unless, of course, you have someone with Psychic Chirurgery give you Psychic Chirurgery (although you'll need a method of upping your manifester level to 17th to qualify for the transfer - which is doable).

Second, that requires you Persist a 7th level power from a different speciality. Which... odd, I'm having a spot of trouble finding a 3.5 version, all I can find is the 3.0 version from the Psionics Handbook, so using that... requires you have a manifester level of at least 21.

Third, as your duplicate has two negative levels and no equipment, you'll need to manage a manifester level of 19 before the reduction.

So... it's a high-end optimization that has a requirement of either very high level or some high-end optimization before you can use it.

I don't think this will see play in many campaigns, honestly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What are the other means to surmount the limitation? Metaconcert, i think, but Soul Crystal shouldn't work by RAW, IMHO and i read a lot of people saying the Linked Power tricks doesn't work neither. The Arcane Fusion can maybe, if you have StP, but for other Erudite?

Soul crystal and metaconcert work just fine but they're mid and upper-mid level to manually manifest.

Scribe tattoo at 3 and psionic tattoo mastery (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) at 5 goes a -long- way for any manifester but especially for an erudite. Getting a dorje of soul crystal or metaconcert is also doable if a bit expensive.

Less expensively but more restrictively you can spend your early career focusing on powers that are useful in a wide variety of situations and behave more as a wilder until you have enough UPD to branch out. For instance astral construct is widely applicable to combat situations of all kinds.

[Psyren]

Psyren I am curious which do you prefer for a class that is gonna be a rare psionic being in the game a Erudite or a Psion?

As I told you multiple times before in this very thread, I don't "prefer" either of them. :smalltongue: It merely depends on which one I feel like playing (or running, if DM) at the time.

Also, even if an Erudite is alone in a setting, he can still get a pretty expansive repertoire by storing his power choices from levels in stones, Reforming them, and then re-learning them. It will cost a chunk of XP but that's it.

[FullmetalGamer]

Is there a way for a Socerer to expand their spells known?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is there a way for a Socerer to expand their spells known?

Several.

Runestaves, knowstones, certain PrC options, and the extra spell feat; just off the top of my head.

[FullmetalGamer]

How do Runestaves and know stones work never dealt with them.
Also which PrCs?

[EugeneVoid]

These Threads...

Theeeeeeeseeee Threaaaadsss...

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/061/664/1275937249093s.jpg

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do Runestaves and know stones work never dealt with them.
Also which PrCs?

Runestaves let you burn off a spell slot to cast one of the spells stored within it. Each runestaff usually has several spells of a similar theme stored in it. They're detailed in the magic item compendium.

Knowstones are dragon magazine material and, as such, I'm not terribly familiar with them. I'm sure someone else can fill you in.

As for PrC's there's the go-to example; sand shaper (sandstorm). There's also a feature to ultimate magus (complete mage) that lets you add a few of spells from your spellbook to your sorcerer spells known. You can pick up a couple, even from lists other than the sorc/wiz list, by taking the arcane preparation feat (complete arcane) and entering wyrm wizard (dragon magic). I'm sure there are a few more as well.

[FullmetalGamer]

Ok I will look them up.

Oh I was curious if you might know the answer to this.
Wands are considered weapons so couldn't you add a wand sheath to a wand, nesting wands might be interesting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Where did you get that idea?

Wands are not suitable to use as weapons. They're thin and fragile compared to most other hand-held pieces of equipment. More importantly, there's nothing anywhere in RAW to support this supposition. It's just not true.

[FullmetalGamer]

I read somewhere they where called Weapons, granted yes they are to flimsy and so on for a melee weapon but if they are counted as a weapon then they could have that wand compartment add on.

[Rubik]

Where did you get that idea?

Wands are not suitable to use as weapons. They're thin and fragile compared to most other hand-held pieces of equipment. More importantly, there's nothing anywhere in RAW to support this supposition. It's just not true.The Wandstrike feat allows you to use a wand as a weapon to deal 1d6, 20/x2 piercing damage.

[FullmetalGamer]

^ Thats it.
If you had that feat could you in theory use a nesting wand set up?

[Kelb_Panthera]

^ Thats it.
If you had that feat could you in theory use a nesting wand set up?

No.

One of the requirements to put a wand chamber into a thing is for the thing to be big enough that you can hollow out a section the size of a wand. If you do that to a wand you'll have destroyed it. Besides, that feat doesn't actually make the wand a weapon, it only allows you to use a wand as though it were a weapon.

[FullmetalGamer]

It is possible I see how it could be argued as a weapon.

Well the actual text says you add a cylindrical slot on the handle of a
weapon.

So hollowing a wand out is not actually needed but I get the idea. Even if I did run it as hollowing it out I could see that the magic is just anchored to the wand and if the wand it hollowed out it might not ruin it. But you would need a permanently shrunk wand after a bit.

Is Runestaff a weapon?

I am trying to figure out a way to create an item that can hold multiple spell effects but it small. (Its a sonic screwdriver like device)

[Psyren]

It is possible I see how it could be argued as a weapon.

Wands are not on any "weapons" tables - that's all that matters. You can certainly jab someone with a wand, or poke them in the eye etc., but that's called an "improvised weapon" which cannot receive weapon enhancements of that type because they are defined as things that aren't actually weapons.

[Rubik]

You can add wand chambers to each of your gauntlets, as well as three on an elvencraft longbow (one on each end of the quarterstaff, and one on the bow part). You can also add two to an animated spiked shield (one on the shield, since it's a separate weapon, and one for the spikes). Then add one to each braid blade, boot blade, and sleeve blade you've got. Then add one to your armor spikes.

[TuggyNE]

I read somewhere they where called Weapons, granted yes they are to flimsy and so on for a melee weapon but if they are counted as a weapon then they could have that wand compartment add on.

You're probably thinking of rods, or perhaps staves, which are in fact weapons (generally light maces or clubs and quarterstaves respectively). Wands, not so much.

[bekeleven]

To answer the topic:

Computer science has a term called Turing Complete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness). It involves a theoretical machine called a "Turing Machine" that has a band of values, and the ability to go up and down the band and read or change values. The details are somewhat boring to those not initiated, but put quite simply, it lays out some prerequisites on what an algorithmic machine (such as a programming language) should be able to do. If they meet all of the prerequisites, then they are considered "turing complete."

The fascinating thing about turing completeness is that it means, although some operations may be rather convoluted to perform, the programming language can perform every operation capable of being performed by any other turing-complete language. A program written in C# or Javascript or C++ can have 100% of its implementation copied by Brain#### (http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/) or even Piet (http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html) if given access to the same resources. It probably won't perform anything as quickly or efficiently, but the real reason we don't see operating systems written in these languages is the writing itself. It's incredibly torturous to write anything but the simplest of simple programs in languages so unfriendly. User-friendly programming languages provide "abstraction", in which they give us concepts to manipulate that are easier and friendlier than ones and zeros on a band of memory. It saves everyone a lot of time by hiding things that the programmer doesn't need.

Tier 1 classes are turing-complete.

Once you reach the level of flexibility that tier 1 classes provide, you can do anything, and that means you can break the game in any way that any other tier 1 class can break it. Turing completeness includes not only the obvious (infinite wishes, auto-rolling natural 20s, infinite damage, infinite actions) but also any effects written in any book. If it's been published, a wizard - or a psion, or a cleric, or an erudite, or even a druid - can do it.

Sometimes, it's easy. An erudite getting arcane spells is trivial. Getting divine spells requires exposing some of the ones and zeros. A psion getting divine spells requires a number of jumps, but each allowed by the rules, and in each leap we see more of the underlying rules making up the D&D universe, and how they are bending. Every tier 1 class can achieve these, although it's not always as efficient. Sometimes the simplest way to roll a natural 20 (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-champion--57/surge-of-fortune--630/) costs 300 XP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm). But if it must be done, a wizard (or an erudite, or a cleric, or a druid, or an artificer, or an archivist...) can do it.

To the current topic of discussion:

2 Boot blades, 2 elbow blades, 2 gauntlets, spiked armor, spiked helmet, 2 weighted sleeves. If you still need wand chambers after that I don't know what to tell you.