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Khantalas
2007-01-21, 07:51 PM
Simply put, why is dwarf considered better than other core races? Now, let me say that I don't think dwarf isn't overpowered, I am saying I have no idea. I just hear that dwarves are overpowered around - it's be nice to know why.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 07:54 PM
I guess many people think that because they get a bonus to Constitution, which is handy for everyone, and a penalty to Charisma, which is a dump stat for a lot of people.

That and they look at all those other special things, like the +4 AC vs. Giants. The stonecutting bonus. Darkvision. The problem with those is that they're so circumstantial. A DM with a dwarf in their party doesn't have to throw them up against Giants, stone, or the Dark, after all.

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 07:56 PM
OK, if you're playing in my games, you can't dump Charisma, so let's put that aside.

What about the +2 racial bonus against magic and poison?

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-21, 07:56 PM
Dwarves just plain get more and better bonuses than pretty much all the other races. +2 CON is always useful, for -2 CHA which is one of the more common dump stats (or -2 DEX if you want to play a bard or sorcerer--ah, subraces). Then there's Darkvision, lack of encumbrance from heavy armor/loads, +2 saves vs. spells, Stability, and a bunch of other small miscellaneous bonuses to boot.

Saph
2007-01-21, 08:00 PM
Well, it's the best race for a fighter, no doubt about that, because you get so many useful bonuses - dwarven waraxe proficiency, +2 con, better encumbrance so you can use heavy armour without penalty, etc.

However, it's definitely not the best race if you want to play a caster or a class that relies on mobility. So I wouldn't say that the dwarf is universally better than the other core races.

- Saph

The_Snark
2007-01-21, 08:01 PM
Dwarves get...

+2 Con, -2 Cha. Constitution is important for everyone, whereas Charisma is only useful to certain classes or types of characters.

A +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and poisons. This covers probably well over half the saving throws the dwarf will ever be making.

Darkvision. Useful.

Weapon familiarity with the dwarven waraxe and dwarven urgrosh. The second is pretty useless, but the first can be handy for some fighter-types to have.

Some attack or dodge bonuses against certain types of enemies. Situationally useful.

A couple flavorful skill bonuses and Stonecunning; not really that useful.

The ability to move at normal speed in armor, counterbalanced by a lower speed in the first place.

It's not overpowered, exactly, but it's better than most other base races are, particularly when you take into account the fact that their favored class is Fighter; the abilities outlined above suit a fighter perfectly for the most part. For that matter, they make decent wizards, too.

Rei_Jin
2007-01-21, 08:04 PM
Dwarves are rated my number one base class, followed by humans.

Why?

Dwarves get a bonus to con, which I view as everyone's secondary stat.
Dwarves get a bonus to saves against spells.
Dwarves can wear heavy armor without penalty.
Dwarves get Darkvision, one of only two core races to get it. The other is the horribly nerfed Half-Orc.
Dwarves get stonecunning, which whilst not overpowered, adds to the other stuff they get.
Dwarves also get a bonus against orcs and goblinoids, the most common low level enemy in most default campaigns.
Dwarves also get a bonus to defense against giants. One feat, just one from Races of Stone allows him to add that +4 dodge bonus against any creature at least one size category larger than him.

And what drawbacks do they get?
Speed 20ft (medium or heavy armor on any other race results in the same or worse).
They get a dump stat of either Charisma (oh so painful for a fighter) or Dexterity (that's gonna hurt my Cleric oh so much).

...

That's it? That's all the penalty I get for all that awesomeness?

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 08:09 PM
Oh, I'm glad I changed the Dwarves now.

Saph
2007-01-21, 08:12 PM
I'm not sure. 20 ft speed is a problem if you're playing a caster or lightly armoured character. That's not an issue if you're a fighter, but it still makes it significantly harder to get in range to hit things, and you can pretty much never outrun anything.

A Dwarf makes a great frontline character, no doubt about that, but they're not an automatic choice in any game I've seen. I don't think I've ever seen a party with more than one dwarf.

- Saph

Rei_Jin
2007-01-21, 08:16 PM
I've seen parties where 3 of the 4 characters were Dwarves.

Dwarven Barbarian1/Fighter6
Dwarven Cleric of Pelor7
Dwarven Rogue7
Human Sorceror7

Is one such example. The Human Sorceror can cast Darkvision to keep up with the others underground, the rogue has no problems with traps in the dungeons, and the cleric and fighter stand toe to toe in combat, one has more HP and combat tricks, the other can heal.

TheThan
2007-01-21, 08:18 PM
Dwarves are a bit more powerful than most of the other races. I don’t think they’re overpowered, I just like to think of them as being the “top end” of the +0 LA races. Anything that seems mechanically superior to the dwarf probably ought to have a level adjustment. With half orcs being the “low end” of the spectrum. The other base races seem to fall somewhere in-between the two.

Seatbelt
2007-01-21, 08:18 PM
OK, if you're playing in my games, you can't dump Charisma, so let's put that aside.

What about the +2 racial bonus against magic and poison?

How does that work? How do you force someone to not put their lowest score in Charisma? What if I'm playing some class with MAD and Charisma just doesnt help him at all? I have to sacrafice because you hate people being ugly. :P

AmoDman
2007-01-21, 08:20 PM
How does that work? How do you force someone to not put their lowest score in Charisma? What if I'm playing some class with MAD and Charisma just doesnt help him at all? I have to sacrafice because you hate people being ugly. :P

You can still be beautiful with a horrible Charisma ;). Might be a funny idea for a character flaw, "Everyone always thought Ailae was beautiful, until she opened her mouth..."

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 08:26 PM
How does that work? How do you force someone to not put their lowest score in Charisma? What if I'm playing some class with MAD and Charisma just doesnt help him at all? I have to sacrafice because you hate people being ugly. :P

You just won't survive wtihout Charisma checks. Cause I'm running a horror campaign. Either you die, or you don't dump Charisma.

It's very fun, by the way.

Wolf53226
2007-01-21, 08:32 PM
Not that I am going to tell you that this is silly or anything, but what are all these charisma checks for?

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 08:36 PM
Ah, a lot of things. And Will saves.

Although that is not a Charisma check, per se.

Well, like, you open doors with Charisma checks at times. Small things. But without them, you can't do much.

oriong
2007-01-21, 08:42 PM
Essentially Dwarves are good the same reason Halflings are good.

They're very focused.

Dwarves make exceedingly good armored fighters (note small 'f'). They do away with most penalties for heavy armor (once you've got medium or heavy armor on the speed isn't a difference). They get extra hit points. They get bonuses where fighters are weak (Will and Reflex saves against spells) while being even better where they are strong (net +3 bonus against fortitude saves against magic or poison). They also receive what is basically bonus damage in the form of the dwarven waraxe, allowing them to get better damage in one hand without spending a feat.

The only penalty they have is poor charisma which, mechanically at least, is almost meaningless.


Halflings are the same way, except their advantage is geared towards sneaking rogues. they get huge skill bonuses which makes skill monkeys even nastier. Excellent saving throw bonuses, and a bonus to Dex with a penalty to Strength (probably a dump stat for many rogues anyway).

Jack_Simth
2007-01-21, 09:09 PM
Do note that it's entirely possible to have an all dwarf party.

Dwarf Rogue
Dwarf Cleric
Dwarf Fighter
Dwarf Wizard

None of them particularly need Charisma....

If you get into the UA racial environmental variants, the Desert Kobolod is close. Small size, +2 Dex, +1 Natural armor = +3 AC compared to a human.
No light sensitivity (without losing the darkvision). Trades the Con penalty for a Wis penalty. Keeps the 30 foot land speed. Great for an AC monkey. The -4 Strength is a pain... unless, of course, you play a class that doesn't need much strength to begin with. Desert Kobolds make excellent Wizards and Sorcerers. If you prefer to play a Cleric or Druid, the Jungle Kobold will do the job (Int penalty instead of Wis or Con).

Roderick_BR
2007-01-21, 09:19 PM
Back at 2nd edition, elves were overpowered.
Hmm... true. Only a charisma penalty (that the dont use anyway) and a speed penalty (for a medium sized character), although now they move as fast as an armored human.
I'd push them back down to 3.0, without the weapon familiarity and stability. Don't know about the skill bonuses or bonuses against orcs/giants. They used to have save bonuses agaisnt magic because they couldn't be arcane spellcasters before. Hmm... a though one...

PS: Since 3.0, I'm scared of fighting halflings... specially after 3.5. You could use a short sword (1d6) one handed, or a long sword(1d8) two-handed, but now you can use a halfling sized greatsword (1d10). It's a small change, but adds a lot to it.

JaronK
2007-01-21, 09:21 PM
As someone else said, Dwarfs just get useful melee type bonuses. They're not massively strong or anything, just a good solid race. Halflings, likewise, are good at what they do, as are Humans. Gnomes are a bit more niche oriented, but still quite useful. Meanwhile, you've got Half Orcs and Half Elves, which really aren't good enough at any one thing to be impressive.

It's not a big deal though, really. Nothing close to the difference between a Fighter and a Druid, for example.

JaronK

Frosty Flake
2007-01-21, 09:33 PM
Dwarf characters (ie. Players using dwarves) can also get away with insulting the party, reminiscing about the "good old days" and the "home country" and speaking in a scottish accent more than any other race... this alone gives them a massive bonus as far as I'm concerned... besides, Dwarven Urban Ranger who trades in magic and duel-weilds two Dwarven Waraxes? Awesome.

Wait... how do you open doors with Charisma?

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 09:36 PM
Dwarf characters (ie. Players using dwarves) can also get away with insulting the party, reminiscing about the "good old days" and the "home country" and speaking in a scottish accent more than any other race... this alone gives them a massive bonus as far as I'm concerned... besides, Dwarven Urban Ranger who trades in magic and duel-weilds two Dwarven Waraxes? Awesome.

I have to agree with you entirely. "Ye hairless ninny!" makes a great insult to an elf.


Wait... how do you open doors with Charisma?"Pleeeeeease open" *bats eyelashes*

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 09:39 PM
Wait... how do you open doors with Charisma?

Force of personality. When you're in a dreamworld, you could get bonus hit points based on Charisma and it would make sense.

Well, granted, other things have to be explained by killing catgirls.

Kantolin
2007-01-21, 10:03 PM
To me, it's dwarves and elves all the way.

Elves seem to make really good everything that dwarves are mediocre at.

I mean, a dwarf is a good cleric. But dwarven clerics lose out on half the dwarven bonuses due to not having full martial, while elven clerics get longswords and longbows, while the d8 hit die is plenty to make up for the -2 con. +2 dex means either you can be an AC monkey or can more easily hit the 12 dex needed to power full plate.

So to me, it's dwarves and elves about on par up top in my book. Meh...

My favortie race will be half-orcs no matter what! Even in 4th edition when D&D adds them a wisdom penalty and a dexterity penalty! And takes away darkvision!

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 10:06 PM
My favortie race will be half-orcs no matter what! Even in 4th edition when D&D adds them a wisdom penalty and a dexterity penalty! And takes away darkvision!

And once per day they have to roll to see if they go into a sudden blind rage killing their teammates!

God_of_Luck
2007-01-21, 10:56 PM
Even if it sounds weird, the 1st Dwarf sorcerer sub level is nice. The others are ok but I prefer not losing spells. Dwarfs are nice, but humans are more useful at lower levels.

Frosty Flake
2007-01-21, 11:12 PM
And once per day they have to roll to see if they go into a sudden blind rage killing their teammates!

Wait, this isn't a rule already? My DM has been LYING to me!

Person_Man
2007-01-22, 12:11 AM
Mostly because the other races are so mediocre. Humans are always a good choice. But Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, and Gnomes are basically jokes, as are Elves to a lesser degree. No one I know chooses to play them for crunch reasons (unless there's some sort of wierd racial PrC build involved), though plenty of people I know play them for fluff reasons. Halflings make good Rogues, but are a lot less useful now that Whisper Gnomes exist.

There are some good varients (Gray Elves, for example). But if you're going core only, pretty much everyone should be a Dwarf or Human, and often are.

The_Snark
2007-01-22, 01:49 AM
Mostly because the other races are so mediocre. Humans are always a good choice. But Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, and Gnomes are basically jokes, as are Elves to a lesser degree. No one I know chooses to play them for crunch reasons (unless there's some sort of wierd racial PrC build involved), though plenty of people I know play them for fluff reasons. Halflings make good Rogues, but are a lot less useful now that Whisper Gnomes exist.

There are some good varients (Gray Elves, for example). But if you're going core only, pretty much everyone should be a Dwarf or Human, and often are.

Gnomes are jokes? Odd; they've always looked like a pretty good caster race to me. They get Small size, a Con bonus, a few cantrip abilities, and +1 to the save DC of Illusions... not bad for a wizard or sorceror, really. Unless you're talking flavorwise, in which case yes, they're jokes.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-22, 02:02 AM
Whisper Gnomes are (a) the uberest LA +0 race, and (b) like normal gnomes, but not silly.

Rockphed
2007-01-22, 02:03 AM
And here I always thought Humans were the best. There goes my racism. You killed it! Killed it! I hope you are happy.

And yes, I can see that mechanically, most other races have a leg up on humans, but they always just speak to me in words of confusion.

Dausuul
2007-01-22, 02:13 AM
And here I always thought Humans were the best. There goes my racism. You killed it! Killed it! I hope you are happy.

And yes, I can see that mechanically, most other races have a leg up on humans, but they always just speak to me in words of confusion.

Actually, mechanically speaking, humans are a damn solid race. Dwarves are slightly better front-line tanks, and halflings are noticeably better sneaky rogues. But for pretty much every other build in the game, human is the race to beat. That extra feat is huge, and the skill points and "Favored Class: Whatever" sure don't hurt either... especially if you're looking to go into a PrC.

JaronK
2007-01-22, 02:13 AM
Whispergnomes are a good race for a stealther character, but since it's casters that are the strongest, and humans make such good casters, it's humans really that are the best. That free feat is quite useful, and few of the other 0LA races have anything to offer for casters. Grey Elves have some punch if you're a wizard, and standard gnomes make the best illusionists (especially shadowcraft mages... yowch!).

JaronK

Rei_Jin
2007-01-22, 02:24 AM
For myself, you have the following list

Bard = Half-elf
Barbarian = Dwarf or Goliath
Cleric = Dwarf
Druid = Human
Fighter = Dwarf
Monk = Dwarf
Paladin = Dwarf or Human
Ranger = Human
Rogue = Halfling or Whispergnome
Sorceror = Spellscale or Human
Wizard = Dwarf, Grey Elf, or Human

Dwarves get the most votes, followed by Humans. A couple of other races get their own niche, but that;s about it.

Dhavaer
2007-01-22, 02:31 AM
I'd put Gnome in Sorcerer and Wizard. They still have the Con bonus, but they're also Small, so they get a slightly better AC and a bonus to attack, which helps with rays.

Kantolin
2007-01-22, 02:56 AM
I maintain it's all about elven paladins, with longsword and bow.

And potentially rogue. d6 can suck with a con penalty, but longbow can help rectify things, and +2 dex on a dex-happy class... along with all the other bonuses...

*Grumble* Stupid elves. Half-orcs all the way.

JaronK
2007-01-22, 05:50 AM
Well, if we want to go best race by core class...

Bard: Gnome
Barbarian: Dwarf, Goliath, Ferral Mineralwarrior Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale (tee hee)
Cleric: Human, Dwarf
Druid: Human
Fighter: See Barbarian, but take more templates. Fighter levels suck anyway.
Monk: See Fighter
Paladin: See Barbarian, but add in Halfling, because Halfling Outrider with a level of Beastmaster can make Paladins awesome.
Ranger: See Barbarian, but without that weird template thing.
Rogue: Whispergnome, Dark Whispergnome, Halfling, Dark Halfling
Sorcerer: Gnome (Now you can be a Shadowcraft Mage!) or Kobold
Wizard: Gnome (See Sorcerer) or Grey Elf

JaronK

Saph
2007-01-22, 07:07 AM
Yes, but does anyone really pick their race solely for game power, even going through manuals and splatbooks just to get an extra point of something? The benefits are VERY small in comparison to the in-game effects of being one race or another.

- Saph

Talyn
2007-01-22, 07:22 AM
For myself, you have the following list

Bard = Half-elf
Barbarian = Dwarf or Goliath
Cleric = Dwarf
Druid = Human
Fighter = Dwarf
Monk = Dwarf
Paladin = Dwarf or Human
Ranger = Human
Rogue = Halfling or Whispergnome
Sorceror = Spellscale or Human
Wizard = Dwarf, Grey Elf, or Human

Dwarves get the most votes, followed by Humans. A couple of other races get their own niche, but that;s about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, for I may be, but don't dwarves who play Wizards lose their +2 racial saving throws vs. spells? Also, anybody who wants to play a dwarf wizard in a traditional campaign had better be ready to be straight-up hated by every other dwarf he ever meets...

[edit] Oh, and as DM, I don't allow non-core races, except for kobolds and hobgoblins, both of which I've house-ruled the HELL out of. I mean, seriously, some of those splatbooks are just insane in the power they give some +0 races...

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-22, 07:26 AM
I mean, seriously, some of those splatbooks are just insane in the power they give some +0 races...

Like what (aside from Whisper Gnomes)?

Charity
2007-01-22, 07:31 AM
^ look out he's setting a bear trap for you Talyn.


Dwarves are mechanically sound, unlike some of the other PHB races, but at the end of the day we all play what we like, rather that what makes sense anyhow.

Person_Man
2007-01-22, 09:58 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, for I may be, but don't dwarves who play Wizards lose their +2 racial saving throws vs. spells? Also, anybody who wants to play a dwarf wizard in a traditional campaign had better be ready to be straight-up hated by every other dwarf he ever meets...

[edit] Oh, and as DM, I don't allow non-core races, except for kobolds and hobgoblins, both of which I've house-ruled the HELL out of. I mean, seriously, some of those splatbooks are just insane in the power they give some +0 races...

You're wrong. Dwarves keep their racial saving throw vs. spells regardless of class. In fact, I'm unaware of any race that loses any racial ability due to their class choice.

AmoDman
2007-01-22, 10:01 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, for I may be, but don't dwarves who play Wizards lose their +2 racial saving throws vs. spells? Also, anybody who wants to play a dwarf wizard in a traditional campaign had better be ready to be straight-up hated by every other dwarf he ever meets...


Ummm...no. I'm not gonna lie, I have no idea where you got any of that from. Direct me to where Dwarves hate magic?

MrNexx
2007-01-22, 10:26 AM
One thing that annoys me about the dwarven sorcerer substitution level is that it doesn't scale. It's great, but it doesn't grow like a familiar does.

Roderick_BR
2007-01-22, 10:58 AM
Ummm...no. I'm not gonna lie, I have no idea where you got any of that from. Direct me to where Dwarves hate magic?
From the beginning of D&D, dwarves were said to don't trust wizards or arcane magic (one more reason dwarves and elves bicker all the time) and that was the reason dwarves couldn't be mages in AD&D. In Forgotten Realms for the 3.0, they have some explanation about how the newer generations of dwarves are more open to that sorta thing, so you see more dwarven wizards and sorcerers.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 12:31 PM
From the beginning of D&D, dwarves were said to don't trust wizards or arcane magic (one more reason dwarves and elves bicker all the time) and that was the reason dwarves couldn't be mages in AD&D. In Forgotten Realms for the 3.0, they have some explanation about how the newer generations of dwarves are more open to that sorta thing, so you see more dwarven wizards and sorcerers.

Is there a Tolkienian precedent for that? It just sounds like something that would be.

Of course, it could go all the way back to the Norse, where Dwarfs were portrayed as small men who lived underground, mined, and smithed.

Darrin
2007-01-22, 12:49 PM
Simply put, why is dwarf considered better than other core races? Now, let me say that I don't think dwarf isn't overpowered, I am saying I have no idea. I just hear that dwarves are overpowered around - it's be nice to know why.

Their racial abilities allow a wide variety of optimizations.

* Bonuses against orcs, goblinoids and giants - stacks well with Ranger's favored enemy abilities.
* Stability bonus works well with a lot of tactical feats, particularly Improved Trip.
* Extra encumbrance stacks well with movement bonuses, such as from Barbarian (and to a certain extent Monk, although that's a whole nuther can o' worms).
* Favored class allows any dwarf to easily take a 2-level dip into fighter, and it's really hard to find any build that can't benefit from two fighter bonus feats and +2 BAB.
* Weapon familiarity so you don't have to blow a feat for one of the better one-handed weapons in the game (Dwarven Waraxe). Urgrosh is a battleaxe, double weapon, and anti-charging weapon all wrapped up in one.
* Craft bonuses are ideal for skill-based crafting or magic item creation.
* Darkvision means they don't need to occupy a hand with a light source, so they can still carry that heavy shield, extra waraxe/urgrosh, trip weapon, etc.

The abilities are broad enough that you don't get locked into one particular optimization. The best counter-example is probably half-elves - no reason to play one of those unless you're trying to optimize Diplomacy. Actually, even that's not a reason... Human + Skill Focus: Diplomacy is more optimal, and on top of that gets more skill points to maximize social skills.

codexgigas
2007-01-22, 12:56 PM
There are some good varients (Gray Elves, for example). But if you're going core only, pretty much everyone should be a Dwarf or Human, and often are.

But Gray Elves are core. They're in the Monster Manual.

God_of_Luck
2007-01-22, 02:22 PM
But Gray Elves are core. They're in the Monster Manual.

But not core in every setting. They are Greyhawk core.

Hurlbut
2007-01-22, 02:26 PM
But not core in every setting. They are Greyhawk core.
And? Anything that's FR core is not core in any other setting, like wise for Eberron Core either.

God_of_Luck
2007-01-22, 02:33 PM
Hurlbut, Gray Elves are in the Moster Manual, not in FR books.

Telonius
2007-01-22, 02:56 PM
Is there a Tolkienian precedent for that? It just sounds like something that would be.

Of course, it could go all the way back to the Norse, where Dwarfs were portrayed as small men who lived underground, mined, and smithed.

Dwarves and Elves have had a rivalry going for Ages in Tolkien. Not so much a "hate," but a rivalry. Some elves (like the Noldor) were actually pretty close to Dwarves. Ever wonder why that "Speak, friend, and enter," thing on the doors to Moria was written in Elvish instead of Dwarvish? It was made specifically for elven friends from Eregion to get into the dwarvish kingdom. Most of the rivalry probably has its roots in the dispute over the Nauglamir (when both Elves and Dwarves were acting like complete idiots).

There's not really any fear of magic on the part of the dwarves, per se. They were very much in tune with the power of the Earth, being children of Aule. They were able to work with mithril, which was as close to magic metal as Tolkien got. Remember, Tolkien's idea of "magic" had more to do with understanding the real essence of something, than with weird incantations, arcane scripts, and summoning things out of thin air. (The Elves don't understand what Sam is talking about when he asks them about Elvish magic.)

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 03:03 PM
Dwarves and Elves have had a rivalry going for Ages in Tolkien. Not so much a "hate," but a rivalry. Some elves (like the Noldor) were actually pretty close to Dwarves. Ever wonder why that "Speak, friend, and enter," thing on the doors to Moria was written in Elvish instead of Dwarvish? It was made specifically for elven friends from Eregion to get into the dwarvish kingdom. Most of the rivalry probably has its roots in the dispute over the Nauglamir (when both Elves and Dwarves were acting like complete idiots).

All true, but I meant a precedent for dislike of magic, which you kind of addressed in your next paragraph. Unless a dislike of magic is because of a dislike of elves.

Hurlbut
2007-01-22, 04:04 PM
Hurlbut, Gray Elves are in the Moster Manual, not in FR books.
:smallsigh:
You failed an Int check there.
Monster Manual is Core. You can use anything from it to any setting.
Can you tell me if there's any rule that prohibit Gray Elves from being used in FR or Eb settings?

Matthew
2007-01-22, 04:25 PM
But not core in every setting. They are Greyhawk core.

Yes, which makes them default core. They are not, however, core in the sense of in the PHB, which is the better understood version.

Tolkien's Dwarves are somewhat strong willed (and resistant to magic in that sense), but have no innate dislike of magic itself, as far as I am aware.

Pepper
2007-01-22, 04:36 PM
Dwarves allow you to show up to the gaming table with a case of beer and talk in a bastardized scottish accent all night. What more could a race hope to offer?..lol

MrNexx
2007-01-22, 04:38 PM
:smallsigh:
You failed an Int check there.
Monster Manual is Core. You can use anything from it to any setting.
Can you tell me if there's any rule that prohibit Gray Elves from being used in FR or Eb settings?

The FRCS (and then, Races of Faerun) delineates the varieties of elves available in Faerun. Grey Elves are not amongst those. Ergo, there are no grey elves in Faerun. Instead, there are Sun Elves.

AmoDman
2007-01-22, 04:50 PM
From the beginning of D&D, dwarves were said to don't trust wizards or arcane magic (one more reason dwarves and elves bicker all the time) and that was the reason dwarves couldn't be mages in AD&D. In Forgotten Realms for the 3.0, they have some explanation about how the newer generations of dwarves are more open to that sorta thing, so you see more dwarven wizards and sorcerers.

Blah. Those were your crappy dwarves then. There is nothing of the sort in any current edition, just like there's no "elf" class.

MrNexx
2007-01-22, 04:58 PM
Blah. Those were your crappy dwarves then. There is nothing of the sort in any current edition, just like there's no "elf" class.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedParagon.html

Woot Spitum
2007-01-22, 05:49 PM
Is there a Tolkienian precedent for that? It just sounds like something that would be.

Magic in Tolkien's world was much more limited than it is in D&D. Very few could use it, and then usually in very limited, specific ways. There were only 5 wizards in the entire world (two of which were not even named), and they would, if their description is looked at carefully, seem closer, in D&D terms, to outsiders who have taken the shape of humans. So really, there wasn't enough magic in Middle Earth for to set a precedant for dwarves distrusting magic. The dwarves distrust was of the elves themselves not, magic.

Hurlbut
2007-01-22, 05:52 PM
Magic in Tolkien's world was much more limited than it is in D&D. Very few could use it, and then usually in very limited, specific ways. There were only 5 wizards in the entire world (two of which were not even named), and they would, if their description is looked at carefully, seem closer, in D&D terms, to outsiders who have taken the shape of humans. So really, there wasn't enough magic in Middle Earth for to set a precedant for dwarves distrusting magic. The dwarves distrust was of the elves themselves not, magic.However they did show their stuborness trait in resisting the rings of power more than the humans did, the magic upon them never did dominated them but caused them to become more greedy.

Matthew
2007-01-22, 05:56 PM
Also, there was plenty of 'Elf Magic' out and about. Just depends how you want to define magic.

Rei_Jin
2007-01-22, 05:57 PM
Dwarves are best played with a set of Drumsticks, they give a nice hollow sound.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-22, 05:58 PM
However they did show their stuborness trait in resisting the rings of power more than the humans did, the magic upon them never did dominated them but caused them to become more greedy.

This was attributed to their natural stubborness and resistance to being dominated or controlled, which in D&D would translate to resistance to mind-affecting spells and abilities, not resistance to spells in general.

Devils_Advocate
2007-01-22, 06:05 PM
Also, anybody who wants to play a dwarf wizard in a traditional campaign had better be ready to be straight-up hated by every other dwarf he ever meets...
The wizard would probably hate most other dwarves right back, too. "Bah! Buncha daft anti-intellectual quasi-luddite gits who reckon they're better'n ye if'n they can beat ya at arm-wrestlin'! WHO NEEDS 'EM?!" I'm thinking a necromancer who uses those no-save spells that wimpify the target to leave any dumb dwarf who tries to mess with him feeling weak and tired.

the_tick_rules
2007-01-22, 07:13 PM
1. speak with a scottish accent. how dwarves in worlds without scotland got this way is a mystery.

2. dislike elves in particular and be in general abrasive.

3. fight with axes or hammers.

4. live underground.

5. be an alcoholic.

MrNexx
2007-01-22, 11:33 PM
1. speak with a scottish accent. how dwarves in worlds without scotland got this way is a mystery.

Dwarven happens to act precisely on Common as Scots Gaelic does upon English. Dwarven adventurers who come to this plane are very confused by the existence of dwarven accents in a small part of a single island of the northern sea.

However, I wouldn't doubt that dwarven distrust of magic and anti-magical nature likely comes from one of the sources that Gary Gygax references in the 1st edition DMG; the boys at Dragonsfoot could tell me, but I'm too tired to check tonight.