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Rama_Lei
2007-01-21, 08:00 PM
I for one don't understand the appeal of the dwarven cleric and/or paladin. Sure the constitution bonus is nice but the charisma penalty takes away from your class abilities. For a paladin, it takes away from lay on hands and a cleric's turning ability suffers. So why choose a race that hampers your class skills. The same fro the elven wizard. That constitution penalty and the d4 don't look good. So why do people choose races that hurt their character?

The_Snark
2007-01-21, 08:03 PM
Elf wizards and dwarf paladins just fit so well into the culture/racial stereotypes of both races; they aren't necessarily that effective, particularly the paladin.

I don't see the problem with dwarven clerics, though; Turn Undead is a situational and largely useless ability. Unless you rely on divine feats, the loss of 1 turning attempt and a -1 penalty on turning checks will not hurt you.

Yuki Akuma
2007-01-21, 08:05 PM
Dwarven clerics simply come from second edition, where priest was one of the few classes dwarves could play (another being fighter.. no paladin, unfortunately, that was human-only).

Hooray for arbitrary racial restrictions.

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 08:06 PM
Halflings and Dwarves... couldn't even be mages, those damned fools.

Well, just use mountain dwarf. Don't they get -2 Dex instead of -2 Cha?

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 08:07 PM
I play a dwarf cleric, but only because I like dwarves and I like clerics. I think it makes perfect sense because after all, all races are likely to have some religion.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-01-21, 08:08 PM
Or gold dwarf. +2 CHA -2 DEX

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 08:10 PM
Or gold dwarf. +2 CHA -2 DEX

Which book do you have? FR has gold dwarves, but they have +2 Con, -2 Dex.

AmoDman
2007-01-21, 08:14 PM
Turn undead is lame. I mean, there's lots of things provided in splats you can do with its attempts now, but by itself? Meh. I think I've used it once, and it was, of course, at low levels on zombies whose arses we could've kicked anyways.

Does it really matter if the crunch conflicts? Obviously, players are going to do what they want. I, for one, think standard elves make horrible Wizards. They need as much CON as they can get! But hey, obviously, you're going to play what you want, so go for it.

I actually thought this thread was going to be funny fluff combinations, such as Dwarven Druids or Elven Barbarians.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 08:23 PM
I actually though this thread was going to be funny fluff combinations, such as Dwarven Druids or Elven Barbarians.

If there isn't such a thread, there needs to be.

Inigo_Carmine
2007-01-21, 08:29 PM
I for one don't understand the appeal of the dwarven cleric and/or paladin. Sure the constitution bonus is nice but the charisma penalty takes away from your class abilities. For a paladin, it takes away from lay on hands and a cleric's turning ability suffers. So why choose a race that hampers your class skills. The same fro the elven wizard. That constitution penalty and the d4 don't look good. So why do people choose races that hurt their character?

You seem to be addressing only mechanical reasons why they make poor choices. So i will only address those.


Dwarven clerics:

The dwarf has very little if anything going against it in this department.
A really really strong cleric would have a Wisdom bonus. Fortunately no core races have this, so the dwarf isn't lacking there. I think the next most important stat for a cleric is probably con; the last party member you want to drop is the cleric. Add in some extra save bonuses and the resistance to tripping and this gives them good staying power, and makes the cleric-tank even more viable.
Sure, dwarves have a -2 tro Cha, but turn undead is only a fringe benefit of the class, and one that largely becomes uesless later in the game.

Clerics (along with Paladins) play to one of the dwarve's strengths though: heavy armor. Dwarves are not (further) slowed down by a set of fullplate.

In fact, I would argue that the race probably best suited to clerics are dwarves.


Dwarven Paladins:


Yeah, that cha penalty hurts, but the con bonus pretty much makes up for it. The aforementioned heavy armor affinity is good here too. All of the martial classes give them dwarven waraxe proficiency, and Paladins in my experience are more likely to go 1-hander+shield than any other class. While I wouldn't say Dwarves are the end all be all of Paladinhood, I think they are just as suited to the class as any other race (except maybe humans, who get an extra feat and skillpoint that the class will greedily absorb).

As for the Elven Wizard: Can't help you.
I've always thought that mechanics-wise it was an odd pairing. Flavor-wise, their long life span allows a buttload of research time; something every wizard craves. The elves are also supposed to be very intune with magic, though there is little reflection of this in their abilites.

Their weapon proficiencies are only useful for beefing up non-martial classes, one of which is the wizard. One might consider their +2 dex favorable when you aren't wearing armor, but that dex bonus will help out just about anyone.

Fat Daddy
2007-01-21, 08:33 PM
I like the Dwarven Cleric for a few levels to qualify for the Hammer of Moradin PrC. I really like the flavor of it. Besides, dwarves don't turn undead...they squish 'em. :smallbiggrin:

Thomas
2007-01-21, 08:33 PM
Elf wizards and dwarf paladins just fit so well into the culture/racial stereotypes of both races; they aren't necessarily that effective, particularly the paladin.

I don't see the problem with dwarven clerics, though; Turn Undead is a situational and largely useless ability. Unless you rely on divine feats, the loss of 1 turning attempt and a -1 penalty on turning checks will not hurt you.

Paladins suffer a bit more, but it's a cool combo. Prestige into Hammer of Moradin and have fun.

Dwarf clerics have no problem at all; so you lose 1 turn undead attempt. Big deal. You're a tank anyway. Make sure you pick up the dwarven cleric substitution levels.

AmoDman
2007-01-21, 08:36 PM
the dwarven cleric substitution levels.

The what? I know of dwarven substitution levels in Races of Stone, but dwarcen cleric?

Seatbelt
2007-01-21, 08:37 PM
I played a half-orc Druid, but I didnt roll a single ability score below 12. So it worked.

Wolf53226
2007-01-21, 08:42 PM
I played a Dwarf Cleric once, it wouldn't have fit the personality to be turning undead anyway, much better to bash them out of existence and free the body of the abomination that is being undead. Was a great character, wish that campaign had continued to the end, but it died.

Ramza00
2007-01-21, 08:51 PM
One thing I don't understand is someone playing a Half Orc Wizard, Archivist, Sorcerer, etc unless they are doing it for roleplaying, the mere though it isn't a good combo, or they are planning on doing the hexer prc from MotW (in this case do the Archivist route)

Khantalas
2007-01-21, 08:52 PM
Of course we're doing it for the flavor. I created a Gnome Bard once, just for fun. And well, before you ask, Gnomes in my campaign have -2 Cha.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 10:12 PM
I like the Dwarven Cleric for a few levels to qualify for the Hammer of Moradin PrC. I really like the flavor of it. Besides, dwarves don't turn undead...they squish 'em. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know why, but this reminded me of the "In Soviet Russia" jokes.

"In Soviet Russia, undead turn you!"

In fact, that has to be in my signature now.

TheOOB
2007-01-21, 11:11 PM
Truth be told, even without turn undead clerics have plenty of ways of dealing with undead. At the very least every spell they know is a damaging spell agienst them.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-21, 11:25 PM
Truth be told, even without turn undead clerics have plenty of ways of dealing with undead. At the very least every spell they know is a damaging spell agienst them.

I'd say not quite...they have some buffs and some stuff that would only affect living things. And they might know spells that heal them.

Turcano
2007-01-22, 12:54 AM
You want a really stupid race/class combination? Try a warforged druid. That makes no sense at all, either mechanically or conceptually.

"I want to play a divine caster with an affinity for nature, so I'll play as a construct with a Wis penalty!"

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 01:01 AM
You want a really stupid race/class combination? Try a warforged druid. That makes no sense at all, either mechanically or conceptually.

"I want to play a divine caster with an affinity for nature, so I'll play as a construct with a Wis penalty!"

But they can Wildshape as trucks. They're more than meets the eye, you know.

cupkeyk
2007-01-22, 01:11 AM
How is a elf wizard difficult to understand? Sure a Halfling or gnome wizard is better but it's not like you are ever gonna get hit. You can pump concentration with skill points since you have nowhere to put them anyway, wizards have lousy class skills. At early levels if you get hit, you die even if you have 20 constitution and toughness twice. If you cast spells that involve you needing to make a concentration check to prevent attacks of opportunity, then you are playing that wizard wrong. Unless you have a concentration modifier that allows you to fail on only a one, you should never cast defensively. I dunno, that's how I play my wizards.

I hate dwarves and paladins. I have never played either class/race. Unless you are taking feats that consume your turn attempts like divine mertamagic, or take on a domain that uses your charisma bonus for its benefits; you don't actually need charisma. Dwarves will take domains like Planning and Metal, LOLz

Rei_Jin
2007-01-22, 01:14 AM
You want a really stupid race/class combination? Try a warforged druid. That makes no sense at all, either mechanically or conceptually.

"I want to play a divine caster with an affinity for nature, so I'll play as a construct with a Wis penalty!"

I had a discussion with some of my players about that once. I wanted one of them to consider playing it, for pure amusement value. They looked at me and said...

"What? Do you want metal bears and birds and snakes running around? Are you crazy man?"

I tried explaining to them that it was magic, but no...

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 01:15 AM
Dwarves will take domains like Planning and Metal, LOLz

There's a Planning and Metal Domain? I don't know why my god doesn't grant Metal...Planning though, he's Chaotic Neutral and not known for Planning.

Oh well, I have Strength and Luck.

Darkshade
2007-01-22, 01:33 AM
while not an interesting race comboe per se i did play an elven rogue3/druid5/Verdant Lord10/Shadowdancer 2 in a longrunning game, he was the sneakiest thievingiest 50 bags of holding havingest least naturiest nature guy ever!

Darkshade
2007-01-22, 01:35 AM
I play a dwarf cleric, but only because I like dwarves and I like clerics. I think it makes perfect sense because after all, all races are likely to have some religion.

i have a question, does your dwarven cleric carry around holy water?
I have a friend who likes to play dwarven clerics and he always carries around a keg of "Dwarven Holy Water" is it only in my group that dwarven holy water invariably ends up being blessed sacrament or is it that way for you guys?

Dausuul
2007-01-22, 01:52 AM
I for one don't understand the appeal of the dwarven cleric and/or paladin. Sure the constitution bonus is nice but the charisma penalty takes away from your class abilities. For a paladin, it takes away from lay on hands and a cleric's turning ability suffers. So why choose a race that hampers your class skills. The same fro the elven wizard. That constitution penalty and the d4 don't look good. So why do people choose races that hurt their character?

Stat-wise, as others have pointed out, the dwarven cleric and paladin are quite viable. Elf wizards suck horribly if you play a high elf; however, grey elf wizards (with the Intelligence bonus) are a much better option.

Of course, there are also non-mechanical reasons to play things.

Jack_of_Spades
2007-01-22, 02:09 AM
Dwarves make good paladins because of thier determination aka Hit points.
They can get a decent CHA, a great CON, and decent in everything else.
The paladin's Cha based abilities aren't THAT good. They give the class and edge, but only a bit of one.

The saving throws are my favorite reason to play a dwarf paladin.


I never understood the Elven Wizard either.
The Dex helps a bit, but not enough to make sense.
And for some reason none of their abilities have anything to deal with spellcasting. Hell, they get sword proficiencies! What wizard ever wants that?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-22, 02:59 AM
One thing I don't understand is someone playing a Half Orc Wizard, Archivist, Sorcerer, etc unless they are doing it for roleplaying, the mere though it isn't a good combo, or they are planning on doing the hexer prc from MotW (in this case do the Archivist route)

Half-Orc Sorcerer, while mechanically nerfed, makes sense from a storyline point of view. Sorcerers are always more prevelant among the more primative cultures, such as the orcs, and many of the more barbaric human tribes. It is generally from a mixing of these two that we get most half-orcs (offspring resulting from orcish raids on human settlements being the largest minority). Therefore it would not be inconcievable that a half-orc was born with an innate ability for magic. Not a whole lot of control, mind you, but plenty of power to burn.

Mind you, with a -2 on their casting stat, and a bonus on their most worthless stat, the combo is mechanically pathetic. The only thing it has for it is Darkvision, which can be gained elsewhere for a far cheaper price.

The one I can't figure out is Halfling Rogue. Sure, it's got a +2 Dex. That's handy. But the -2 Strength gives him a penalty in melee combat, further complicated by his small size, which decreases the damage of his melee weapons. Granted, the +1 size bonus to AC, the +4 size to Hide and +2 racial to Move Silently means he's going to be harder to find, but after a while, magical options obviates this necessity (rings of invisibility, for instance). Of course, any GM is permitted to royally plot-twist over any halfling who gets their hands on a ring of invisibility, just to punish them for the Tolkien reference.

Elf makes a much better Rogue, in my opinion. Sure, the -2 Con hurts, but +2 to Dex, +2 to Search/Spot/Listen and the secret door spidy sense make them MUCH better at locating secret doors and traps.

Of course, I've always been of the opinion that Halflings are absolutely perfect for the role of Sorcerer. None of the Core races have +Cha, so they're no worse than any race without a penalty, and the -Str and reduced size on weapons is meaningless since they're never going to use a melee weapon after their third level anyways. +1 size bonus to AC, +2 Dex for another +1, and +1 to all resists gives them some much-needed survivability, and the +1 size bonus to hit will help out with your ranged touch spells. The bonus to hide and move silently help out if the party needs to sneak past an obstable and he needs to make a check unskilled, but that's generally marginal, depending on your GM.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-01-22, 03:09 AM
Elf Wizards: Admittedly, these guys aren't that impressive. But the raised Dex means better initiative, which is a big thing when you start hitting the 1-round battle benchmark. Helps those ranged touch attacks (Enervation, anyone) as well, though they don't necessarily need much help. Being able to pull out a longbow (if you haven't dumped Strength completely into the toilet) is nothing to scoff at in the early levels, either. Races of the Wild also has some solid substitution levels for them.

Warforged Druid: This actually strikes me as a very interesting, feasible option. As created creatures, Warforged seem more likely by default to contemplate origins than someone that's been born. Nature could be seen as a far more mystical force than an organic creature would see it as. Barring that, seeing the way the natural world operates might make a Warforged ashamed of what he is, which could result in similar reverence. It could certainly produce some interesting characters. After all, it's not like the Warforged asked to be made out of metal and magic.

Darkshade
2007-01-22, 03:13 AM
yeah but dont the armor warforged count as wearing prevent them from being druids because its not an accepted druid armor? I think i remember reading a feat in Dragon or Dungeon or online somewhere that lets them be unarmored so that they can be druids but thats almost like not even being a warforged

Merlin the Tuna
2007-01-22, 03:15 AM
The one I can't figure out is Halfling Rogue. Sure, it's got a +2 Dex. That's handy. But the -2 Strength gives him a penalty in melee combat, further complicated by his small size, which decreases the damage of his melee weapons. Granted, the +1 size bonus to AC, the +4 size to Hide and +2 racial to Move Silently means he's going to be harder to find, but after a while, magical options obviates this necessity (rings of invisibility, for instance). Of course, any GM is permitted to royally plot-twist over any halfling who gets their hands on a ring of invisibility, just to punish them for the Tolkien reference.You're right in that Elves do make very good Rogues, but Halflings are still pretty solid. When you get right down to it, a d4 Rapier vs. a d6 Rapier doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of difference, especially when the bulk of a Rogue's damage is coming from Sneak Attack dice. Since you're likely to have Weapon Finesse anyway, the Halfling is down 1 point of damage from the Strength penalty and 1 point of damage from the weapon size reduction, but that's it. It's not a huge price. The bigger issue is the 20ft speed, and that's part of the reason why Kobolds, Goblins, and Whisper Gnomes make the best Rogues.

Fizban
2007-01-22, 03:46 AM
There's actually a lot of support for the Warforged Druid concept, I think Races of Eberron had substitution levels for them, or at least a feat (not the one that gets rid of composite plating).

Darkshade
2007-01-22, 03:50 AM
okay okay i've got one
a Dwarven Beguiler

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 12:37 PM
i have a question, does your dwarven cleric carry around holy water?
I have a friend who likes to play dwarven clerics and he always carries around a keg of "Dwarven Holy Water" is it only in my group that dwarven holy water invariably ends up being blessed sacrament or is it that way for you guys?

Actually, I don't. I started out as a Mystic, which I think from a roleplaying point of view wouldn't have as much access to such things as holy water.

Then again, I strongly suspect the Dwarven Holy Water is ale.

Darrin
2007-01-22, 01:11 PM
One thing I don't understand is someone playing a Half Orc Wizard, Archivist, Sorcerer, etc unless they are doing it for roleplaying, the mere though it isn't a good combo, or they are planning on doing the hexer prc from MotW (in this case do the Archivist route)

You get much more interesting characters when you play against stereotypes. We had a tree-hugging half-orc druid in our campaign at one point, *great* character and a lot of fun to roleplay with (aggravated the heck out of any NPC half-orcs we ran into).

I've been hankering to play a half-orc bard for a long while. The last character I played before my current one was a halfling barbarian w/ greatsword (although gnome might have been a better choice, +2 con probably works better than +2 dex). An elven barbarian could also be interesting ("Rapier...? What Kronk need knitting needle for?").

Mechanics-wise, you can generally circumvent an ability score penalty with a sub-race (MM or UA has several different options) or a racial variant (Dragon #306 has some great +0 LA variants, like Magic-Blooded to boost Cha.)

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 01:44 PM
I've been hankering to play a half-orc bard for a long while. The last character I played before my current one was a halfling barbarian w/ greatsword (although gnome might have been a better choice, +2 con probably works better than +2 dex). An elven barbarian could also be interesting ("Rapier...? What Kronk need knitting needle for?").

I played an Orc Bard for an April fool's quest once. The only two weapons I used were my grand piano and electric lute. And my Charisma was like, 6. Strength was about 20 though.

In the end, I smashed the BBEG with my lute, after 'whirlwinding' it. The DM had me make perform check to see how awesome it looked. He had told us that we could dictate the result of one die roll during the whole quest, so that's the one I took a 20 on.

Good times, good times.

Telonius
2007-01-22, 01:46 PM
Mechanically speaking, Gnome or Halfling Monk, Half-elf .... well, half-elf anything.

If we're just talking fluff, it makes sense for every race to have some of every class.

Morty
2007-01-22, 02:39 PM
A little off-topic question: my GM says that Gray Elves, Blues and other races with an INT bonus doesn't make sense because you don't have the reason to play wizard/psion of other race. What do you think?

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 02:42 PM
A little off-topic question: my GM says that Gray Elves, Blues and other races with an INT bonus doesn't make sense because you don't have the reason to play wizard/psion of other race. What do you think?

That would be like saying a Half-Orc has a Strength Bonus, why play as a Fighter of another race?

Morty
2007-01-22, 02:47 PM
That would be like saying a Half-Orc has a Strength Bonus, why play as a Fighter of another race?

He says that humans and dwarves are equal as fighters because of their racial features(bonus feat, dwarves' tons of bonuses, etc.), and INT bonus is better than every racial feature except maybe human's bonus feat.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 03:04 PM
He says that humans and dwarves are equal as fighters because of their racial features(bonus feat, dwarves' tons of bonuses, etc.), and INT bonus is better than every racial feature except maybe human's bonus feat.

Well, that's possibly true. Int does help every class after all, with skill points.

Morty
2007-01-22, 03:07 PM
Hm. That's the point for my DM, but I'll wait to see other opinions.

mikeejimbo
2007-01-22, 03:16 PM
On the same vein, Con helps every class with Hit Points and Fort Saves. Wis helps with Will Saves. Dex helps with Reflex Saves.

Telonius
2007-01-22, 03:24 PM
Well, for a Gray elf, it carries the same problem with the normal elves, for wizards. -2 Con means -1 to Concentration checks, so Casting Defensively will be slightly harder. Your Fort save and HP are already low from being a Wizard, so you have to be even more concerned about getting hit or failing a fortitude save. You can take some precautions to help with the fort save (poison immunity items and spells, etc), but those all cost gp.

On the other hand, the +2 Int gives it an extra skill point at each level, so you can choose some other skills. As a caster, you were probably already maxing out Know Arcana, Spellcraft, and Concentration anyway (so the extra skill point doesn't help for Concentration checks), but it could help with some of the strength-based skills. Climb, Jump, and Swim could each get a rank in them; so that overcomes the -1 penalty from the Gray Elf's Strength penalty. Net gain, 14 skill points by 20th level. Those could go into any Knowledge skill, or even Tumble (to get you out of tricky situations). Decent gain, but not earth-shattering.

The biggest gain you get is to the DC of your spells, and to bonus spells per day. As a Wizard, your biggest limitation is number of spells per day, and a bump in INT gives you just a little bit of an edge.

It all boils down to one thing; are you more worried about getting hurt (can't cast any spells when you're dead), or being a better caster (I trust my meatshields and contingency spells, nobody's laying a hand on me!)? I can see either choice being appropriate, depending on the situation.

Morty
2007-01-22, 03:26 PM
On the same vein, Con helps every class with Hit Points and Fort Saves. Wis helps with Will Saves. Dex helps with Reflex Saves.

My DM doesn't say that INT bonus is overpowered overall, just for INT casters/manifesters.

Toliudar
2007-01-22, 05:37 PM
The one I can't figure out is Halfling Rogue. Sure, it's got a +2 Dex. That's handy. But the -2 Strength gives him a penalty in melee combat, further complicated by his small size, which decreases the damage of his melee weapons. Granted, the +1 size bonus to AC, the +4 size to Hide and +2 racial to Move Silently means he's going to be harder to find, but after a while, magical options obviates this necessity (rings of invisibility, for instance). Of course, any GM is permitted to royally plot-twist over any halfling who gets their hands on a ring of invisibility, just to punish them for the Tolkien reference.

I'll agree that halflings are good sorcerers, but poor rogues? You list several reasons why they're great at many of the archetypal "thief" rogue skills, and with slings and thrown weapons (all of which work fine in combination with the close range for precision damage and sneak attack), they're as good as anyone. Most rogue builds I see have strength become largely irrelevant, until it's time to haul home the loot from dead companions hard-won bounty of adventuring. Favoured class means that you can throw in a secondary class or two for flavour and rounding without hosing your experience advancement.

the_tick_rules
2007-01-22, 07:03 PM
well there are no restrictions as far as i'm aware, but there are rarities and social consequences. elf and dwarf barbarians are rare, but not impossible. dwarf sorcerers and wizards are not impossible, but are not liked among dwarves.

Turcano
2007-01-22, 07:11 PM
Warforged Druid: This actually strikes me as a very interesting, feasible option. As created creatures, Warforged seem more likely by default to contemplate origins than someone that's been born. Nature could be seen as a far more mystical force than an organic creature would see it as. Barring that, seeing the way the natural world operates might make a Warforged ashamed of what he is, which could result in similar reverence. It could certainly produce some interesting characters. After all, it's not like the Warforged asked to be made out of metal and magic.

The main problem with it is that you'd have a tough time developing a connection to nature. In my mind, druids are born, not made, the same way sorcerers are (warforged are magical beings, so there's at least some connection there).


yeah but dont the armor warforged count as wearing prevent them from being druids because its not an accepted druid armor? I think i remember reading a feat in Dragon or Dungeon or online somewhere that lets them be unarmored so that they can be druids but thats almost like not even being a warforged

They can get Ironwood plating, but that's wasting a feat (you need to burn a feat on Unarmored too, so you can't get around it either way) on a class that's hurting for feats to begin with. That and the -2 Wis makes it a not-so-wonderful idea mechanically.

purepolarpanzer
2007-01-22, 09:26 PM
Side note- where is the hammer of moradin prestige class?

Siberys
2007-01-22, 10:17 PM
Actually, you can be a WF druid without burning a feat (though it works very well for druids, admitably) - the plating doesn't count as armor for the purpose of class features. That's one reason (besides the battlefist) why WF monks are so powerful; the only race that can get armor enhancements without losing monk class abilities or spending huge amounts of money!

In fact, I have a WF Druid in my AoW campaign. Besides the Wis penalty, there's really nothing illogical about it - or, at least, it's just as illogical as a WF cleric.

Besides all of that, WF aren't just made of metal - they have stone, wood, volcanic glass - all sorts of materials generally considered "natural". Would you have a problem with a WF ranger?

I specifically remember threads from the WotC Eberron boards discussing just this - What if a Dryad still inhabits the livewood components of a WF? naturally, druid would be a great choice for RPing this character. And, in Eberron at least, the Wardens of the Woods (one of the druidic organizations) regularly uses non-"natural" stuff - opting for a compromise between the natural and the civilized.

Darkshade
2007-01-23, 12:00 AM
Actually, I don't. I started out as a Mystic, which I think from a roleplaying point of view wouldn't have as much access to such things as holy water.

Then again, I strongly suspect the Dwarven Holy Water is ale.

yeah like i said blessed sacrament

Thorodin
2007-01-23, 12:12 AM
Sometimes its about roleplaying, not the most effecient or powerful character.

TheThan
2007-01-23, 02:06 AM
But they can Wildshape as trucks. They're more than meets the eye, you know.



Darn, you beat me to it...

Leon
2007-01-23, 08:00 AM
But they can Wildshape as trucks. They're more than meets the eye, you know.

Hehe, nice one

Caelestion
2007-01-23, 09:41 AM
Snipped stuff about Warforged monks and druids
Doesn't the composite plating count as armour, inflicting ACP, ASF etc? Wouldn't that interfere with druidic and monkish abilities?

silvermesh
2007-01-23, 10:27 AM
halfling monk? bad idea mechanically? clearly you haven't seen a well-built shuriken tosser. they were loads better in 3.0(toss 3 with one attack), but it's also cheaper to enchant shuriken now..

FdL
2007-01-23, 11:22 AM
I see nothing wrong with a Dwarven Druid. Not that the one I played was a typical member of a dwarven community, but even then it's bound to happen more than dwarven wizards or sorcerors.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-23, 12:14 PM
But they can Wildshape as trucks. They're more than meets the eye, you know.

Man I have to play a warforged now.

Scalenex
2007-01-23, 03:53 PM
Half-Orc Sorcerer, while mechanically nerfed, makes sense from a storyline point of view. Sorcerers are always more prevelant among the more primative cultures, such as the orcs, and many of the more barbaric human tribes. It is generally from a mixing of these two that we get most half-orcs (offspring resulting from orcish raids on human settlements being the largest minority). Therefore it would not be inconcievable that a half-orc was born with an innate ability for magic. Not a whole lot of control, mind you, but plenty of power to burn.



I made a half-orc sorcerer for a game my friend is theoretically going to run. It's a multi-class with barbarian. You see I have long since said barbarian and sorcerer are the last two things I play, and my group as a whole has been trying new things. I dived it this challenge head first and I made a cool backstory for it. I posted his backstory on the forums!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30199

The same guy whose running that game made an interesting class/race combination. Gnome Abjurer. Not that strange right? Save that he chose his opposition school as being Illusions (we house ruled in 3.0 opposition schools). He is a Lawful Good Gnome that doesn't get along too well with other gnome wizards, viewing illusions as too deceptive. His most game affecting spell however has been ghost sounds (which he could cast because it's a racial ability for gnomes). He distracted a bugbear barbarian with it and managed to save several of the human villagers the barbarian was merciless slaughtering (which led to the barbarian nearly killing him).

Some unusual hypothetical combinations. Multi-class Wizards with Barbarian or Druid. I was going to put Ranger/Wizard on the list but since High Elves love magic and trees, that would actually make some sense. Along those lines, Paladin with Rogue or Druid.

Weird race combinations, half-elf anything since they are the second most underpowered basic race and don't have the rping potential of the front runner of half-orcs. I would point out that in 2nd ed they were my favorite race because they could be virtually any class (except for a handful of specialist wizards and paladins) and could multi-class almost any two classes together. In 2nd ed why be a human when you get no racial powers when you can be a half-elf and get a few racial powers for no penalty? If were not for my fondness for illusionists and paladins, I don't think I'd ever have played a non-half-elf in 2nd ed.

PS Please no body hijack this thread and discuss the viability of half-elves. I understand that some people may find them more interesting than half-orcs or more underpowered than half-orcs or not even underpowered at all.

volrathxp
2007-01-24, 01:56 PM
Doesn't the composite plating count as armour, inflicting ACP, ASF etc? Wouldn't that interfere with druidic and monkish abilities?

Technically the straight composite plating does not say you're counted as wearing light armor, it only says it provides a +2 armor bonus, and there is a 5% ASF as if you are wearing light armor, whereas the feats like Mithral Body explicitly states that you are considered to be wearing Light Armor.

There is also a feat in Races of Eberron called Ironwood Body, which increases your AC bonus to +3, with DR 2/Slashing and explicitly states that Warforged Druids who take this feat can use druid spells and any of the druid's supernatural abilities, etc.

Warforged are technically just as viable for every class as most other races. It all boils down to the rolls, if you roll stats. that -2 Cha may not make a big difference if you get an 18 (only dropping it to a 16, which you can make up for later when you get an ability increase).

To answer the OPs question... why do people create characters that purposefully nerf themselves? To create memorable roleplay characters of course!