Druid Wildshape Question

[Silva Stormrage]

My players stay out. (Demidos that means you :smalltongue:)








How does wild shape interact with ability damage? Con in particular.

Example: A druid with 16 con is hit with black lotus extract while wild shaped into a creature with 14 con. He takes 8 con damage so he now has 6.

He then shifts into a creature that normally has 20 con. How much con does he have?

Does he have 12? 20? Not quite sure how this is supposed to work. What if this druid takes 18 con damage in a form that has 20 con then shifts back?

[hymer]

I've wondered this myself, although in our games, it's been academical so far. Druids are quite resistant to ability damage (I recall only a single instance of a druid getting poisoned, and she was healed back mighty quick).
Unless someone comes along and shows me I'm wrong, I'll rule that the damage stays the same. So if you had 8 con damage to 16 con, and then turn into something with 20 con you have the same damage, 8 to 20. If you turn into something with 8 or less con and have not done something to mitigate the problem first, you'd die.

[Andezzar]

Ability damage is not an ability penalty. Wild shape works like Alternate Form unless stated otherwise.

The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

So, once the druid wildshapes to a new form, the damage to the previous ability scores is irrelevant, he does not have them anymore. If his natural ability scores were damaged, they would also be ovwerwritten, but would return as soon as wildshape ended.

Since his hitpoints are based on his natural CON and not the CON od the alternate Form, any damage to the wildshaped CON score should not affect his HP.

[hymer]

That seems very far from conclusive to me. "gains the physical ability scores" doesn't sound to me like you negate damage already incurred, more like it gives you a new starting point.


Ability damage is not an ability penalty.

This sounds like you're quoting from something. Where, what? Why is ability damage not kept while penalties are?

[Andezzar]

That seems very far from conclusive to me. "gains the physical ability scores" doesn't sound to me like you negate damage already incurred, more like it gives you a new starting point.The damage is to the ability scores of the previous form, the new form's ability scores have not received any damage. Damage is instantaneous, there is no persisting penalty, which would be transfered over to the new scores.


This sounds like you're quoting from something. Where, what? Why is ability damage not kept while penalties are?I'm not quoting directly, but there are some abilities that explicitly cause ability penalties (e.g. Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm))
The Glossary has this to say about Ability Damage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_abilitydamage&alpha=A):
A temporary loss of 1 or more ability score points.
So those points are actually lost instead of rolls involving that ability being penalized.

In the OP's example the character would not run around with CON 14(-8) but with CON 6. That he previously had a different score is irrelevant. It is the same with stat increases from levels 4,8, etc. Those aren't bonuses either. They are direct increases to the scores. There is not difference whether someone increased his Con to 14 at level 4 or he had CON 14 all along.

[hymer]

OTOH, it can't both be instantaneous (as you say) and temporary (as in the definition you quote). I definitely follow your logic, but it seems less than clear that this was the intention of the designers (if indeed they even thought about that specific instance). Especially when you have to hunt for various clues in spells that deal ability damage. There is some likelyhood that the wildshape rules were written by one author, ability damage by another, and the spells by a third, fourth. etc.

[Andezzar]

I cannot argue intent since I know no intentions of the various authors. What the authors wrote however seems clear to me.

Hit point damage is just as instantaneous and temporary as ability damage. Hit points are lost, you do not get a penalty to your hit points, but they return after some time or the application of the appropriate spells.

[Setra]

The way I see it, when you wildshape you heal as if you rested for a night.

Ability damage heals at a rate of 1 a day, right? So then the damage would be lessened by one.

[Andezzar]

Ability damage is not an ability penalty. It is a reduced score.

[hymer]

The way I see it, when you wildshape you heal as if you rested for a night.

Ability damage heals at a rate of 1 a day, right? So then the damage would be lessened by one.

If you go by the "Wild Shape based on polymorph", then you specifically heal hit points as if having rested a night - nothing about ability damage. If you go by the errata, i.e. based on alternate form, you don't regain any hit points.

[Invader]

Ability damage is not an ability penalty. It is a reduced score.

You're arguing semantics. Ability penalty isn't a defined game term and is used interchangeably with ability damage, they're the same thing.

[Andezzar]

If you go by the "Wild Shape based on polymorph", then you specifically heal hit points as if having rested a night - nothing about ability damage. If you go by the errata, i.e. based on alternate form, you don't regain any hit points.Yes, you do, because wildshape has an explicit exception:
This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.
[...]
Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.
That still says nothing about ability damage. It wouldn't make sense because the physical ability scores are overwritten anyways.


You're arguing semantics. Ability penalty isn't a defined game term and is used interchangeably with ability damage, they're the same thing.Got any proof that they can be used interchangeably? I provided one example that deals an ability penalty and not ability damage.

Additionally the definition of penalty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_penalty&alpha=P) (which includes ability penalties) says something else than the definition of ability damage.

Thirdly even if ability damage and ability damage were the same thing, it is a different ability score that gets penalized. If you wild shape you physical ability scores are overwritten by those of the new form. There is no indication that the penalty is attached to the character and not the ability score.

[hymer]

wildshape has an explicit exception

Fair enough. The Rules Compendium does away with the whole 'rest' bit, and just notes you heal 1 hp her hit die.

[Andezzar]

Rest or no rest, you do not do anything to ability damage.

[Invader]

Yes, you do, because wildshape has ability icit exception:
That still says nothing about ability damage. It wouldn't make sense because the physical ability scores are overwritten anyways.

Got any proof that they can be used interchangeably? I provided one example that deals an ability penalty and not ability damage.

Additionally the definition of penalty (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_penalty&alpha=P) (which includes ability penalties) says something else than the definition of ability damage.

Thirdly even if ability damage and ability damage were the same thing, it is a different ability score that gets penalized. If you wild shape you physical ability scores are overwritten by those of the new form. There is no indication that the penalty is attached to the character and not the ability score.

Where does the definition of penalty mention anything about ability penalties. It refers to a die roll and nothing else. Ability damage is the cause, ability penalty is the effect for those instances where the wording was slightly different.

[Andezzar]

Where does the definition of penalty mention anything about ability penalties.It does not, but if ability penalties are not a subset of penalties, we have nothing discuss.

It refers to a die roll and nothing else.Exactly, abilities that cause an ability penalty penalize die rolls with that ability, ability damage however, changes the ability score.


Ability damage is the cause, ability penalty is the effect for those instances where the wording was slightly different.No, both are distinct effects. The cause in either case is a spell or other ability. For example Shivering Touch for DEX damage, Crippling Strike for STR damage and Ray of Enfeeblement for an STR penalty.

WotC even explicitly states that ability damage and ability penalties are not the same:

Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them (fatigue, entanglement, and so on) go away.

[Invader]

WotC even explicitly states that ability damage and ability penalties are not the same:

After reading this I'll agree with you but I've never seen this stated anywhere before. Can you link the source?

[TuggyNE]

After reading this I'll agree with you but I've never seen this stated anywhere before. Can you link the source?

The WotC glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_abilitydamaged&alpha=). But essentially the same rule is stated elsewhere:
Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).
[…]
Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.

While it's not named specifically, it's clear that this is the same as an ability penalty.

[hymer]

Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.

Sounds like one for the RAW bloopers reel. Following that wording:
I'm a strength 8 druid. I get penalized by 4 points to strength 4. I turn into a creature with 20 strength (presumable functioning at strength 16). Then spell ends. My strength returns to the former value, 8. I collapse under my own weight.

Okay, that last sentence is just for drama. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

This is definitely one of the stupider and more ambiguous things in relation to druids. I'm inclined to think that the new animal stats overwrite the damaged stats, but that interpretation is problematic because of how stupid it is. The other interpretation, where the damage carries over, is certainly less stupid, but I have less justification for it. Such is the way of the world.

Edit: Also, this is especially fun in combination with sanctified and corrupt spells. "Oh no, most of my strength has been eaten away by my flagrant disregard for the sacrifice costs of spells. Whatever shall I do? Oh wait, I'm a bear, and thus do not care. Huzzah."

[sjeshin]

Although, even after reading alternate form post errata, and the entry for druids they never did go back and carefully state that you don't get rid of any penalties / damage to scores. However, saying you suddenly get rid of the penalty / ability damage / ability drain just because you gain a new score is nonsense. For example, read polymorph, they were careful to point it out for you. Also, you're a level 7 fighter. You fight an undead that drains 2 points of strength from you. You level up from that encounter. You "gain a new strength score" by increasing your base strength score by one. You do not randomly get the 2 points drained back because you "have a new ability score." Anyone arguing that you wouldn't still be suffering from a penalty / damage / drain that was incurred before shifting is trying to add lines of text to it that aren't there. That's like saying power attacking for 1 or more will give me my strength that was drained back, because it doesn't say it doesn't. ( to exaggerate.)

[Andezzar]

Increasing your ability score on level up does not replace your ability scores. Wildshaping however replaces your (damaged/drained/penalized) ability scores with those of the new form. Whatever happened to the old score s is irrelevant.

An analogy: let's say you have a glass that is half full (original ability scores) and you empty it further (ability damage). Now you replace that nearly empty glass with another glass that is 3/4 full (wild shape). How is the contents of the first glass supposed to influence the contents of the second?

[eggynack]

Although, even after reading alternate form post errata, and the entry for druids they never did go back and carefully state that you don't get rid of any penalties / damage to scores. However, saying you suddenly get rid of the penalty / ability damage / ability drain just because you gain a new score is nonsense. For example, read polymorph, they were careful to point it out for you. Also, you're a level 7 fighter. You fight an undead that drains 2 points of strength from you. You level up from that encounter. You "gain a new strength score" by increasing your base strength score by one. You do not randomly get the 2 points drained back because you "have a new ability score." Anyone arguing that you wouldn't still be suffering from a penalty / damage / drain that was incurred before shifting is trying to add lines of text to it that aren't there. That's like saying power attacking for 1 or more will give me my strength that was drained back, because it doesn't say it doesn't. ( to exaggerate.)
Gaining a point of strength is a different thing, because it's not a replacement effect. It's an addition effect, and there are no issues whatsoever. This, however, is a replacement effect, and it thus makes sense that the new score would completely overwrite the old score, ignoring ability damage. By claiming that you overwrite the old score, except all of your previous ability damage sticks around, you are the one adding in lines of text that aren't there. Also, I can't really see anything in polymorph that changes this. It looks like that spell maintains the problem of wild shape.

[bekeleven]

Seems reasonably unambiguous that main-form ability damage doesn't carry into the ability replacement of wild shape (it's just a houserule that everyone should do).

That said, you could probably make a better argument for ability damage sustained during WS carrying back to your new form. I mean, nothing heals you, and there's different text regarding your ability scores upon leaving alternate form.

[eggynack]

That said, you could probably make a better argument for ability damage sustained during WS carrying back to your new form. I mean, nothing heals you, and there's different text regarding your ability scores upon leaving alternate form.
Yeah, that seems true. I don't think there's that kind of replacement effect when you go back the other way. Still, making the sacrifice cost on luminous armor next to meaningless, at least for awhile, is powerful stuff.

[Urpriest]

If ability damage is dealt to the character, then it would stick around no matter what the character's base scores are. If it is dealt to the score itself, then it would go away if the score was replaced. Given that being ability damaged is a Condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), presumably it affects the character, not the ability score.

[supervillan]

What Urpriest said.

Besides, Wildshape and the polymorph line are already powerful enough without allowing those abilities and spells to also function as superior versions of Restoration.

[Fenris-Wolf]

Ability Penalties would carry over to the new form until the effect penalizing the character ends (i.e. a druid that was hit with a tanglefoot bag would still be entangled suffering -4 dex until he frees himself, or ray of enfeeblement would still penalize strength until spell duration runs out); just think, if it didn't work that way wouldn't enhancement bonuses from the druids buff spells not carry over between forms?

Ability Damage on the other hand would not carry over (unless he has the shapeshifter variant feature) because the druid's stats are literally being exchanged for new scores, the old scores have no impact on the new ones with the sole exception of the druids original Con determining hit points... so in the OP's example of a druid with 16 Con reduced to 8 and then shifting to a form with 20, the druid would have an effective con of 20 for things like fort saves, but he would still have the hp of a character with 8 con. Whether the druid regains 1 point of ability damage "as though having rested" should probably be DM discretion.

That's my two cents,

Cheers

[eggynack]

If ability damage is dealt to the character, then it would stick around no matter what the character's base scores are. If it is dealt to the score itself, then it would go away if the score was replaced. Given that being ability damaged is a Condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm), presumably it affects the character, not the ability score.
It's a reasonable interpretation as long as being ability damaged represents an ongoing condition instead of an instantaneous effect. It makes sense for it to be that way, because if your ability score were really changed on a fundamental level then it would be impossible for spells to heal that damage, and they obviously can. Still, there is a strong implication that this is an instantaneous effect, despite the fact that it's a condition, and despite the fact that it can be healed. There's no outside force continually imposing this damage.

[Urpriest]

It's a reasonable interpretation as long as being ability damaged represents an ongoing condition instead of an instantaneous effect. It makes sense for it to be that way, because if your ability score were really changed on a fundamental level then it would be impossible for spells to heal that damage, and they obviously can. Still, there is a strong implication that this is an instantaneous effect, despite the fact that it's a condition, and despite the fact that it can be healed. There's no outside force continually imposing this damage.

It's a condition imposed instantaneously. Plenty of conditions work like that. There are instantaneous ways to Blind, for example, and basically everything that imposes Dead does so instantaneously. If a dead creature were somehow to use Wild Shape, it would still be dead.

[bekeleven]

It's a condition imposed instantaneously. Plenty of conditions work like that. There are instantaneous ways to Blind, for example, and basically everything that imposes Dead does so instantaneously. If a dead creature were somehow to use Wild Shape, it would still be dead.

Alternate form says "You have the ability scores of your new form." It does not say "You have the liveliness of your new form."

[Urpriest]

Alternate form says "You have the ability scores of your new form." It does not say "You have the liveliness of your new form."

A corpse does have Str -, Dex -, and Con -, though. :smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

A corpse does have Str -, Dex -, and Con -, though. :smalltongue:Yes, but the attributes of the new form are changed to those non values. If the character was not wildshaped before becoming dead, he could not wildshape because you cannot take actions while dead.

[hymer]

you cannot take actions while dead.

Since this whole business is being discussed in the manner it is, I feel constrained to point out that 'dead=unable to take actions' is not RAW in my PHB. I feel fairly certain it is RAI, though.

[Togo]

I carry over ability damage from form to form, in the same way as penalties and enhancement bonuses.

You can read the rules as indicating otherwise, but it seems like a weak interpretation. The ability scores are swapped for the new ones, true, but then the body is also swapped for the new one, and damage/severed limbs/ conditions etc still carry over.

In addition there are severe practical problems with saying that every form has it's own stats subject to damage individually. it makes a druid able to shrug off ability damage, simply by changing to a different individual of the desired species, making one of the most powerful classes more powerful still. It's a bookkeeping nightmare, because you have to track damage of past forms, and it's not clear how many forms can you change into. Do you change into the same generic bear each time, or can you change into different bears with identical stats? What happens if you are subject to a restoration effect when you have suffered unhealed ability damage but aren't in the form that suffered the damage at the time. Do forms heal ability damage if they're not the form you're sleeping in? Can a baleful polymorph turn you back into a previously damaged form? And so on..

It's by far the most practical to just treat ability damage as carrying over from form to form, just as hp damage does.

[Andezzar]

The ability scores are swapped for the new ones, true, but then the body is also swapped for the new one, and damage/severed limbs/ conditions etc still carry over. Do you have proof for that claim? Which abilities even allow you to sever limbs? D&D does not have hit locations.

[TuggyNE]

I carry over ability damage from form to form, in the same way as penalties and enhancement bonuses.

What about (instantaneous) inherent bonuses to physical ability scores, as from tomes? That seems a far more precise analog than penalties or bonuses that come from an effect with an ongoing duration.

And shifting into a bear form that has the effect of a +3 tome applied to its Str seems strange, to say the least.

[Urpriest]

What about (instantaneous) inherent bonuses to physical ability scores, as from tomes? That seems a far more precise analog than penalties or bonuses that come from an effect with an ongoing duration.

And shifting into a bear form that has the effect of a +3 tome applied to its Str seems strange, to say the least.

Why? You read the book, the book gave you magical instructions on how to be stronger. Why should it matter what form you're in?

[TuggyNE]

Why? You read the book, the book gave you magical instructions on how to be stronger. Why should it matter what form you're in?

It gave you magical instructions that made your own body stronger, and you are no longer using quite that body. :smallconfused: It certainly does not give you an ongoing ability to be stronger in all forms.

[supervillan]

hp damage carries over when the druid changes form, notwithstanding the "heal as if rested" feature. Ability damage carries over in just the same way, with just the same rationale. You took damage.

Any other ruling, IMO, adds an additional power/benefit to wildshape that is neither RAW nor RAI. The druid simply doesn't need it.

[eggynack]

hp damage carries over when the druid changes form, notwithstanding the "heal as if rested" feature. Ability damage carries over in just the same way, with just the same rationale. You took damage.

Any other ruling, IMO, adds an additional power/benefit to wildshape that is neither RAW nor RAI. The druid simply doesn't need it.
That's not really a reasonable argument. If wild shape said that it changed your HP, then it's highly probable that we'd be arguing the same thing about that. As is, wild shape actively says that it mostly keeps your HP total the same, and actively says that it makes your ability scores different. There is no real parity between these two things. As for druids not needing stuff, well obviously, but it's interesting, and a druid's need for stuff or lack thereof does not impact RAW in the least.

[Togo]

It gave you magical instructions that made your own body stronger, and you are no longer using quite that body. :smallconfused: It certainly does not give you an ongoing ability to be stronger in all forms.

There's nothing in the item that suggest the strong Your own body emphasis you've giving there. If you consider the book to be a sort of cosmic exercise manual that makes you stronger, better, healthier, then it makes perfect sense to carry it over.

The few times it has come up I've allowed it to carry over, but then I tend to see a manual of strength as a sort of Charles Atlas 'dynamic tension' sort of thing. The mystic secrets of strength, and thus something that carries over from form to form.