Poll: Is Serini still alive?

[Ninja Dragon]

Well, not exactly a poll, because this board doesn't allow them, but I wanted to see what people think.

Is Serini the last surviving member of the Order of the Scribble, or will the Giant keep the theme that they are all dead before the protagonists get to the gate?

I have a feeling we are about to see her, as a foreshadowing in the last strip of book 5.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm inclined to think she's dead, only because I have trouble imagining how else Xykon got that diary. She may not have been as dedicated to settling down and playing goalie as her fellow Scribblers, but that doesn't mean she'd be careless with something both as personal and as important that diary. So I figure Xykon murdered her in the process of getting it. Because, y'know, he's Xykon.

[JBiddles]

It would feel a little bit odd if Serini did just have a bridge dropped on her by Xykon off-panel - Soon and Girard died peacefully of old age, but we saw all the other violent deaths of the Scribblers (or at least had them described). The fact that Xykon didn't actually mention that he'd killed Serini might be a hint that she's still around. Serini would be a useful source of knowledge about the Snarl and the Order needs all of the help it can get.

Of course, being a Rogue, a Venerable Serini wouldn't be much use against Xykon, but an Epic characer has the resources to secure immortality, should they have the inclination. Ironically, it might turn out that Serini, a non-magical character, actually took precautions against age whereas Girard didn't - because he would benefit from the CHA, INT and WIS bonuses of old age.

That does leave open the question of how on Earth Xykon got his phalanges on Serini's diary, though he probably has the magic to steal it. It doesn't seem like his style, but there might have been a reason. After all, Xykon left the diary stashed in a tower somewhere; it's possible that he didn't take it directly from Serini at all, but rather found it.

[doctor23]

I'm inclined to think she's dead, only because I have trouble imagining how else Xykon got that diary. She may not have been as dedicated to settling down and playing goalie as her fellow Scribblers, but that doesn't mean she'd be careless with something both as personal and as important that diary. So I figure Xykon murdered her in the process of getting it. Because, y'know, he's Xykon.

While good points all I am going to come down on the side of alive. Although I don't think she's anywhere near her gate. Given the type of stuff it was shown that she set guarding it. She seems the type to just let it take care of it's self after setting the proper precautions in place.

[SavageWombat]

I think it makes more sense if she's dead - the whole "why'd she lose her journal" thing - but it makes a better story if she's still secretly alive.

[Amphiox]

I'm entertaining the possibility that Serini is a alive and that her journal is a trap - it contains deliberate inaccuracies that will lead Xykon into trouble in Kraagor's Tomb, and she arranged for him to "find" it deliberately.

It's the kind of thing that an epic rogue *would* do....

[Sunken Valley]

Not only is she dead but her gate is completely un-defended. Xykon knows this but he attacked the other gates first because he likes a challenge.

[Nightsbridge]

I'm entertaining the possibility that Serini is a alive and that her journal is a trap - it contains deliberate inaccuracies that will lead Xykon into trouble in Kraagor's Tomb, and she arranged for him to "find" it deliberately.

It's the kind of thing that an epic rogue *would* do....

It's a little weird that it would contain accurate information for all the other gates if so, however.

[Lexible]

Not only is she dead but her gate is completely un-defended. Xykon knows this but he attacked the other gates first because he likes a challenge.

I don't think you mean completely undefended if there are purple worms, and rocs and such, right?

Perhaps, you mean that none of the Scribblers are personally defending it?

[Chronos]

I lean towards "alive". She didn't seem to be much older than Dorukan, if at all, and he lived until a couple of years ago, and halflings are longer-lived than humans by a decent margin. And given that all of the other Scribblers are dead, I think it would work well, story-wise, for there to be one last survivor (if nothing else, to info-dump correct the Order's misconceptions).

That said, I do not know how Xykon got her diary, if she's still alive.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that Serini could still be alive. However, if she is, I don't know how Xykon would have gotten her journal.

[Khay]

I'm going to say "alive but uninvolved" - if she shows up, it'll be after the action (or some of the action, anyway) as part of the "everybody is totally misinformed about the Snarl and the Gates" plot thread.

[Amphiox]

It's a little weird that it would contain accurate information for all the other gates if so, however.

The only accurate information we know it contained were the gate locations. It clearly gave Xykon no warning whatsoever about Soon's Ghost Martyr trick, for example, which almost did the bony one in.

The best cons contain some truth to rope the victims in....

[Keltest]

If she is still alive, shes quite probably retired. She was the only one without a long lifespan and/or magic to make it longer. She would be QUITE old by now.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm going to guess that she's undead.

[BaronOfHell]

I'm entertaining the possibility that Serini is a alive and that her journal is a trap - it contains deliberate inaccuracies that will lead Xykon into trouble in Kraagor's Tomb, and she arranged for him to "find" it deliberately.

It's the kind of thing that an epic rogue *would* do....

And of course the order ends up getting a hold on the diary for the final quest :smallbiggrin:


It's a little weird that it would contain accurate information for all the other gates if so, however.

Otherwise the diary wouldn't be plausible for long. Lure them into a false sense of safety, savor the attack, and let the strikes following seem like coincidences.

[Sunken Valley]

I don't think you mean completely undefended if there are purple worms, and rocs and such, right?

Perhaps, you mean that none of the Scribblers are personally defending it?

Oh no, I mean completely undefended. All the monsters died of starvation with no one to feed them. Serini thought things would just work out. That was her downfall. The ritual takes several weeks to perform, so the Order still has time to stop it.

If they stop it...

[Bulldog Psion]

Thus far, three out of four of the original gate builders have been dead.

I'm going to say that she's alive, just because it'll make the story different from Girard's gate.

The idea is based entirely on "meta" reasons, of course.

[Rogar Demonblud]

To rephrase, two of the Gate Wardens were dead, and two are now dead after meeting Xykon. The Order hasn't found a living one yet.

Thus, I'm cautiously hopeful she's alive, mainly for the infodump. Although the Order could get the same if they find the Black Gem and make contact with Dorukan and Lirian.

[Amphiox]

Here's another crazy hypothesis:

We Know Serini remained on good terms with Girard, at least for a while. Perhaps she was more involved in the Soon-Girard rift than we thought, and she arranged for her diary to get into Xykon's hands as part of a scheme to get revenge on Soon's heirs, the Sapphire Guard. Perhaps she ultimately fell out with the Draketooths after Girard's death, maybe over their recruitment activities, and the diary was part of a plan to get back at them as well.

In other words, Serini's the real Big Bad, Xykon's been her pawn all along...

[Kish]

To rephrase, two of the Gate Wardens were dead, and two are now dead after meeting Xykon.
One was dead before and after meeting Xykon!

[Poppy Appletree]

One was dead before and after meeting Xykon!

You've lost me. :smallconfused:

[SowZ]

If she is still alive, shes quite probably retired. She was the only one without a long lifespan and/or magic to make it longer. She would be QUITE old by now.

As a half ping, her lifespan is longer than a humans.


Oh no, I mean completely undefended. All the monsters died of starvation with no one to feed them. Serini thought things would just work out. That was her downfall. The ritual takes several weeks to perform, so the Order still has time to stop it.

If they stop it...

Any evidence for this? There are plenty of ways to have food spawn magically.

[Kish]

You've lost me. :smallconfused:
Lirian met Xykon and then died.
Dorukan met Xykon and then died.
Girard died, and never met Xykon.
But Soon died and then met Xykon.

As a half ping, her lifespan is longer than a humans.
A half ping longer than a human's lifespan? Wow, that's a really slow Internet connection.

[IW Judicator]

I'm inclined to think she's dead, only because I have trouble imagining how else Xykon got that diary. She may not have been as dedicated to settling down and playing goalie as her fellow Scribblers, but that doesn't mean she'd be careless with something both as personal and as important that diary. So I figure Xykon murdered her in the process of getting it. Because, y'know, he's Xykon.

While I would concur, there is one small detail that could potentially unravel it:

In Start of Darkness, Xykon was perfectly willing to just take Master Fyron's Crown and leave, without resorting to excessive violence. Naturally, violence occurred and Fyron ended up as another one of Xykon's zombies, but the point still stands that Xykon actually made an attempt to get something he wanted without undue violence. Could it be the same in Serini's case? Probably not, unless she left it at home or something while she was out adventuring, since there's not a lot that will stop an Epic Sorcerer Lich from getting somewhere it wants to short of even better Epic magic, but the possibility does still exist. Ultimately though, one way or another I figure Serini is probably dead.

[137beth]

I think it makes more sense if she's dead - the whole "why'd she lose her journal" thing - but it makes a better story if she's still secretly alive.
These were my thoughts before coming to this thread. Given the author's past commentary, that would lead me to believe she is still alive.

Here's another crazy hypothesis:

We Know Serini remained on good terms with Girard, at least for a while. Perhaps she was more involved in the Soon-Girard rift than we thought, and she arranged for her diary to get into Xykon's hands as part of a scheme to get revenge on Soon's heirs, the Sapphire Guard. Perhaps she ultimately fell out with the Draketooths after Girard's death, maybe over their recruitment activities, and the diary was part of a plan to get back at them as well.

In other words, Serini's the real Big Bad, Xykon's been her pawn all along...

I doubt it, but it would be hilariously entertaining if that were the case:smallsmile:

[Porthos]

Here's another crazy hypothesis:

We Know Serini remained on good terms with Girard, at least for a while. Perhaps she was more involved in the Soon-Girard rift than we thought, and she arranged for her diary to get into Xykon's hands as part of a scheme to get revenge on Soon's heirs, the Sapphire Guard. Perhaps she ultimately fell out with the Draketooths after Girard's death, maybe over their recruitment activities, and the diary was part of a plan to get back at them as well.

In other words, Serini's the real Big Bad, Xykon's been her pawn all along...

Dorukan was collateral damage, presumably. :smallwink:

[BaronOfHell]

A half ping longer than a human's lifespan? Wow, that's a really slow Internet connection.

Absolutely brilliant!

[Sunken Valley]

Any evidence for this? There are plenty of ways to have food spawn magically.

Serini has no magic powers and likely wouldn't have thought to install a food button or whatever.

Every gate has been destroyed by the hubris of its guardian.

Lirian believed she was a master of nature and didn't think she was disrupting the nature system when she actually aided in making the fire so big.

Dorukan believed wizard magic was superior but was beaten by a sorcerer, his rune being triggered by an idiot later.

Soon thought the honour of a paladin was unbreakable. The broken honour of a paladin destroyed the gate.

Girard believed only family could be trusted but his gate was discovered due to the machinations of a spurned wife and his clan were killed by their blood connection.

Serini thought the gate defences would be fine if she abandoned them. By logic they shouldn't.

[The Pilgrim]

The Giant commented that the full truth of what happened to the Scribbels will be revealed in due time. Serini is probably the most reliable source the OOTS, and we as spectators, will ever have about the Scribbels.

So, barring supernatural contact, I bet she will be alive and ready to spill the beans when the plot finally demands it.

[Porthos]

A point to consider about Serini being dead, from a storytelling level. What if the Order (and by extenstion we as readers) don't find out the 'truth' about what really happened to the Order of the Scribble? What if their backstories are never fully explored outside of tantlizling hints, glimpses, and cameos?

It's an absolutely valid storytelling device/trope to leave a great big hole in the narrative like that. One that is, perhaps, not everyone's cup of tea. Nevertheless one that has a long literary tradition.

I'm not willing to place any amount of money on this happening, mind. But I'm not willing to place any money on it not happening, either. :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

This is the story of the Order of the Stick. They are to do the heroics. Serini, as epic, is in the way. Better that she is dead.
Now Serini as info dump is an idea. However, we can pass on the needed data by other means, such as Serini leaving some kids to pass on some info. However, not that much of the info we want, such as the actual nature of the Snarl, Serini should not know. So we need another info source, which can also tell us all the Serini data as well.

[Ghost Nappa]

I think either Serini will be old enough to be somebody's grandma and will ask the Order to take her place in defending the gate - and die like the Obi-Wan - or we'll never see heads or tales of her.

I agree with Sunken Valley: the guardian of every gate so far has fallen to their own mistakes. If the theme is continued than Serini will find a way to screw it up somehow.

Watch Kraagor rise from the dead or something and be the only one capable of stopping Xykon/Redcloak/The Snarl/etc. :smallwink:

[Keltest]

As a half ping, her lifespan is longer than a humans.

But not that much longer. Shed be at least 80+ right now, and that's assuming that she was barely 20 when she was with the Order of the Scribble. Even for a Halfling, that's pretty darn old. Not deathbed old, but old.

[orrion]

Serini has no magic powers and likely wouldn't have thought to install a food button or whatever.

Every gate has been destroyed by the hubris of its guardian.

Lirian believed she was a master of nature and didn't think she was disrupting the nature system when she actually aided in making the fire so big.

Dorukan believed wizard magic was superior but was beaten by a sorcerer, his rune being triggered by an idiot later.

Soon thought the honour of a paladin was unbreakable. The broken honour of a paladin destroyed the gate.

Girard believed only family could be trusted but his gate was discovered due to the machinations of a spurned wife and his clan were killed by their blood connection.

Serini thought the gate defences would be fine if she abandoned them. By logic they shouldn't.

I dispute Dorukan, at the least.

Dorukan had defenses other than himself, and actually had the best defense so far in that his gate was captured but unable to be used. All the other gates would have been usable directly after capture and removal of the guardians. He had the best contingency if he was beaten, and that's the exact opposite of hubris. Moreover, he didn't even fight Xykon because he believed wizard magic was superior. He fought Xykon because Xykon taunted him with Lirian's soul gem. Remember, Xykon himself said he had a hell of a time drawing Dorukan out. If Dorukan had believed in a wizard's superiority to the point of hubris then he'd have been more than willing to come out with guns blazing before that point.


This is the story of the Order of the Stick. They are to do the heroics. Serini, as epic, is in the way. Better that she is dead.
Now Serini as info dump is an idea. However, we can pass on the needed data by other means, such as Serini leaving some kids to pass on some info. However, not that much of the info we want, such as the actual nature of the Snarl, Serini should not know. So we need another info source, which can also tell us all the Serini data as well.

Ugh. "We" can't pass on the needed data at all.

It is possible in a narrative for characters other than the major ones to do heroic deeds and not mess up the story. Serini need not win the final battle or even be the deciding factor in that battle in order to get a heroic showing. For instance, if she died to Redcloak and Xykon in defense of her gate a day before the Order ever got there she would still be dying heroically.

[Ridureyu]

MAYBE!

or MAYBE NOT!

I would say that evidence seems to lead toward Serini either being alive, or her status having some importance. She might have information that the Order needs about the Rift, for all we know.

[DerekCale]

Serini is the MitD

[DreadPirateDB]

I'm going to say, alive but with negative hit points.

[DaggerPen]

I think she's alive. Xykon has her diary, which is a good reason to assume she's dead... so why haven't we seen her death alluded to explicitly? Why didn't Xykon say he killed her, like he did Dorukan and Lirian? Heck, why didn't we see the circumstances by which Xykon contained that diary in SoD? It's possible that there's going to be something similar to the suspense with whether or not Girard is alive, but I think that there's something suspicious about the lack of Serini death confirmations.

[137beth]

I'm going to say, alive but with negative hit points.
Nah, she's a rogue! She could escape from the hobgoblins holding her without needing to fall into a pit of acid first:smalltongue:

[MSK]

I'm gonna say she's alive and (probably after some persuading) lets the Order through a secret route in the dungeon so they arrive at the Gate before Xykon does. They'll set up defenses and such for when Xykon kicks in the door - mirroring the first Gate, where the opposite happened.

[DeliaP]

I like the idea that the diary was a trick, drawing a gate hunter into a trap. But why give the correct co-ordinates to all the gates? Why not pull a bluff, like giving co-ordinates to a horrendously well-defended (with all sorts of powerful monsters) location, which did not, in fact, contain the gate? A bit like the final bluff in Girard's pyramind, only this time for real?

Well, maybe that's what Serini did for the co-ordinates for Kraagor's gate! But then why give the correct co-ordinates to all four of the other gates??

The biggest problem with Serini being alive is how come Xykon got his hands on the diary. This also means Serini's diary wasn't at Kraagor's gate, which adds to the idea that after Serini set up Kraagor's gate, she moved on. But why, if Xykon needs to kill Serini to get her diary, has there been no allusion to that?

I want to believe Serini is still around, and will be able to reveal more about the Order of the Scribble.... and so, I will! I vote she's alive!

[Amphiox]

I like the idea that the diary was a trick, drawing a gate hunter into a trap. But why give the correct co-ordinates to all the gates? Why not pull a bluff, like giving co-ordinates to a horrendously well-defended (with all sorts of powerful monsters) location, which did not, in fact, contain the gate? A bit like the final bluff in Girard's pyramind, only this time for real?

Well, maybe that's what Serini did for the co-ordinates for Kraagor's gate! But then why give the correct co-ordinates to all four of the other gates??


That would be assuming she had the resources to MAKE another such horrendously well-defended secondary location, which she may not have had.

There are multiple possibilities that are fun to speculate about. For example, she may have made a WHOLE SERIES of fake diaries, some with fake gate locations, and this one with real locations, as part of a multi-layered defence. The reason for using this one on Xykon is that, at the time she arranged for him to get the diary, he had already taken out Lirian's Gate, (and I can't remember if it was before or after Durokan's). In other words, Xykon already knew the true location of at least one gate, so he could see through any pre-made diary that had fake locations for all of the gates. He'd be the perfect target for the next level of diary deception up, the one with true gate locations but false information about the nature of the defences.

A second speculation could be that, in keeping with the theme of the Scribblers falling apart and failing to keep it together as a group, Serini may have given the true gate locations for the other four gates, but a false one for her own. The true locations would then lull her target into a false sense of security, so that whatever surprise she had prepared vis-a-vis her own gate, would be that much more unexpected. In short, she threw her former teammates under the bus in order to enhance the protection of her own gate.

[orrion]

A second speculation could be that, in keeping with the theme of the Scribblers falling apart and failing to keep it together as a group, Serini may have given the true gate locations for the other four gates, but a false one for her own. The true locations would then lull her target into a false sense of security, so that whatever surprise she had prepared vis-a-vis her own gate, would be that much more unexpected. In short, she threw her former teammates under the bus in order to enhance the protection of her own gate.

Weren't they only guarding the gates to protect them from being used in the manner Xykon is trying to use one of them? It sort of defeats the purpose of her gate being allegedly better protected if the villain succeeds with one of the others and renders the need to use her gate moot.

Fundamentally they were all trying to do the same thing. They just each had a better idea of how to do it. That doesn't mesh well with that particular plan.


I don't think the diary was a trap because if it was it's been an exceptionally poor one. None of the gates have been prepared for Xykon. If you want to lull the villain, fine, but when you realize the villain is stomping the defenses and only needs 1 gate then it would be sort of prudent to go revise your plan.

The other problem I have is that there's no guarantee that whoever found the diary would go in a specific order from gate to gate.

[Heksefatter]

Thus far, three out of four of the original gate builders have been dead.

I'm going to say that she's alive, just because it'll make the story different from Girard's gate.

The idea is based entirely on "meta" reasons, of course.

I agree with this. Her being alive is more interesting. I would like to see the Stick talk to the last member of the Scribble.

[Porthos]

I would like to see the Stick talk to the last member of the Scribble.

That'll happen when they go into RiftWorld and meetup with Kraagor. :smallwink:

[DeliaP]

That would be assuming she had the resources to MAKE another such horrendously well-defended secondary location, which she may not have had.


What I was thinking was that there was only one Kraagor's gate, with all the big monsters, with the co-ordinates in the diary, and it is all a bluff. And when you go to the centre, it says "Sorry, your gate is in another dungeon crawl". Only this time, the gate really is somewhere else, but not actually another big dungeon crawl. Who knows where, or what.

Kind of the exact opposite of Girard's final bluff (and so possibly set up in co-ordination with Girard??) So if you had gone through Girard's gate first, you might be more inclined to disbelieve the true statement at the centre of Kraagor's "gate" (and possibly trigger a self-destruct-rune as a result), but if you had gone through Kraagor's "gate" first, you might be more inclined to believe the double bluff at the center of Girard's gate.... Something an illusionist and a rogue might cook up together?



There are multiple possibilities that are fun to speculate about. For example, she may have made a WHOLE SERIES of fake diaries, some with fake gate locations, and this one with real locations, as part of a multi-layered defence. The reason for using this one on Xykon is that, at the time she arranged for him to get the diary, he had already taken out Lirian's Gate, (and I can't remember if it was before or after Durokan's). In other words, Xykon already knew the true location of at least one gate, so he could see through any pre-made diary that had fake locations for all of the gates. He'd be the perfect target for the next level of diary deception up, the one with true gate locations but false information about the nature of the defences.

If I recall, Xykon found Serini's diary after the fall of Lirian's gate. The locations of the gates were in code and he found the co-ordinates of Dorukan's gate only by working backwards from the known location of Lirian's gate. After the fall of Dorukan's gate, Redcloak and Xykon returned to the diary and deduced (correctly) the locations of Soon and Girard's gates, and (under question by this idea) Kraagor's gate.

It's possible Serini put out the diary only after the fall of Lirian's gate, to draw a potential gate-hunter. But if so, although she correctly gave the co-ordinates to the other three gates, surely if that was her plan she could have given more actively damaging misinformation about what would be encountered?



A second speculation could be that, in keeping with the theme of the Scribblers falling apart and failing to keep it together as a group, Serini may have given the true gate locations for the other four gates, but a false one for her own. The true locations would then lull her target into a false sense of security, so that whatever surprise she had prepared vis-a-vis her own gate, would be that much more unexpected. In short, she threw her former teammates under the bus in order to enhance the protection of her own gate.

So this gets really nasty! Serini drops a diary that accurately locates Girard, Dorukan and Soon, and misdirects away from Kraagor's gate. Well, it's a possibility....

All we really know about the post-break-up scribblers is:
- Soon and Girard are at daggers drawn;
- Dorukan seems to be on the side of Girard against Soon;
- Dorukan and Lirian are in a relationship;
- Girard trusts Serini enough to tell her the real co-ordinates to his gate;
- Serini actually knows the co-ordinates of all the other gates.

There's some hints of more contact: Girard's message at the false location suggests ongoing contact with Serini, at least? And Dorukan (in SoD) says "we" to Xykon, when talking about not being able to locate Lirian's soul, possibly referring to other Scribblers....

[The Grim Author]

Dorukan believed wizard magic was superior but was beaten by a sorcerer, his rune being triggered by an idiot later.

Not just an idiot. An idiot BARD, an arcane spellcaster who would probably be even less worth of a Wizard's Notice™ than a Sorcerer.


Soon thought the honour of a paladin was unbreakable. The broken honour of a paladin destroyed the gate.

The broken honor of a fallen paladin. Or, alternatively, the Broken Honor of a Broken Paladin, which has that nice reinforcing quality to it.


Serini thought the gate defences would be fine if she abandoned them. By logic they shouldn't.

Well, there's always the idea that there's native wildlife the gate defenses wind up feeding on... which means that rather than the gate's defense being limited to one area, all of a sudden the gate's defenses have turned into a real threat to the surrounding regions. Which would mean that, rather than the defenses not working, they worked too well -- and wouldn't that be a twist?

[SavageWombat]

Serini is the MitD

Can't be. The MitD doesn't eat babies.

[Nightsbridge]

The only accurate information we know it contained were the gate locations. It clearly gave Xykon no warning whatsoever about Soon's Ghost Martyr trick, for example, which almost did the bony one in.

The best cons contain some truth to rope the victims in....

But she didn't know about them; they were supposed to guard their gates completely independent of each other. It's not feasible to consider her to have consciously hidden information that she wouldn't have had unless she was breaking her oath, especially in written form that could be used against her if found by one of her old partners.


Otherwise the diary wouldn't be plausible for long. Lure them into a false sense of safety, savor the attack, and let the strikes following seem like coincidences.

What do you mean? The only reason that Xykon didn't jump right for her gate in the beginning was chance. And if there hadn't been a diary he would never have found the gates in the first place. The only reason that this plot is workable is because of the information in the diary. If it's a trap, it's a trap that enables villains to rule or break the universe and thus not a particularly effective trap at all.

[FlawedParadigm]

I'm sticking with my "Girard's corpse is an illusion and he and Serini are sipping mai tais in the rift world on a beach somewhere" theory.

Or more to the point (and more likely) I figure since there's about a one in a million chance that Serini is still alive yet without her journal, it's good as guaranteed. Remember what strip we're reading.

[2.5 cats]

Alive, simply because IMHO that allows for more interesting options and storytelling, and if anything in this comic is predictable it's that The Giant will go with the more interesting option.

[CletusMusashi]

She's alive, but she's so lonely and senile that she shows her diary to absolutely anyone that walks in and shows any interest. While she was telling a long story about the time that Girard let Soon adventure around all day without mentioning that there was jelly doughnut stuffing in his mustache, Xykon snuck away.

[Aura]

But not that much longer. Shed be at least 80+ right now, and that's assuming that she was barely 20 when she was with the Order of the Scribble. Even for a Halfling, that's pretty darn old. Not deathbed old, but old.

Yes deathbed old. Remember, Soon was an old man when Shojo was a young boy. If Soon was 50 at the breaking of the party and Serini was 20, then if Soon died at 80 and Shojo died at 90, than Serini is 140 years old. So she is probably dead unless some magic is involved. OR they find her on her deathbed and she reveals a important but cryptic piece of information right before dying. However, this does still not explain how Xykon has the journal. So probably the most likely scenario is that no one will guess it until it is revealed in the strip.

[Keltest]

Yes deathbed old. Remember, Soon was an old man when Shojo was a young boy. If Soon was 50 at the breaking of the party and Serini was 20, then if Soon died at 80 and Shojo died at 90, than Serini is 140 years old. So she is probably dead unless some magic is involved. OR they find her on her deathbed and she reveals a important but cryptic piece of information right before dying. However, this does still not explain how Xykon has the journal. So probably the most likely scenario is that no one will guess it until it is revealed in the strip.

The comic seems to be suffering from a lack of conservation of Detail. When describing the Scribble's adventures, Shojo says that it happened Sixty Six years ago.

[BaronOfHell]

She's alive, but she's so lonely and senile that she shows her diary to absolutely anyone that walks in and shows any interest. While she was telling a long story about the time that Girard let Soon adventure around all day without mentioning that there was jelly doughnut stuffing in his mustache, Xykon snuck away.

And when the order finds her, she's still telling her story with her back to an empty chair. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphiox]

But she didn't know about them; they were supposed to guard their gates completely independent of each other. It's not feasible to consider her to have consciously hidden information that she wouldn't have had unless she was breaking her oath, especially in written form that could be used against her if found by one of her old partners.

They were SUPPOSED to guard their gates completely independent of each other. We don't know that they actually did. In fact we DO know that Girard and Serini remained in contact and collaborated in a way that was relevant to the defence of their gates, in direct contravention of the letter and spirit of the agreement. Serini is a chaotic good rogue. That's 2/3 aspects that would suggest that she's not that hung up about sticking to the letter of any agreement.

Also, she doesn't have to break her oath to lie about gate defences. She only has to break her oath if she puts TRUE information about the gate defences into her diary. But she could literally pull any story out of her *ss and put it in her diary claiming it was the gate defence, and her only concern would be the *slight* risk of actually guessing right.




What do you mean? The only reason that Xykon didn't jump right for her gate in the beginning was chance.

We actually do not know that at all. We do not know the reason Xykon chose the order of the gates that he went for. For all we know, it was information in the diary that prompted his choice of order, relative to what he thought was the easiest to obtain.



And if there hadn't been a diary he would never have found the gates in the first place.

He found Lirian's Gate before he got the diary. One speculation behind the idea is that Serini arranged to get the diary into Xykon's hands only AFTER she heard that Lirian's Gate had fallen to the Lich. (She may have even WRITTEN the whole thing only AFTER hearing what happened to Lirian) So Serini is working on the assumption that Xykon already knew something about the gates and their locations. So she put some true information into the diary of the type that she suspected the Xykon already knew, as a means of making him complacent about the lies that are also there.


The only reason that this plot is workable is because of the information in the diary.

The plot was workable because of the information in Redcloak's Crimson Mantle. The presence or absence of the diary really had nothing to do with it. The moment Lirian accidentally spilled the beans about there being more than one gate, it was inevitable that Xykon and Redcloak would eventually find the locations, and other information about the Gates and the Scribblers, one way or another. Doing a trick with the diary would be one way of CONTROLLING the information your enemy gets, in a situation where you know the enemy is eventually going to find some information on his own anyways. So "help" him in his search for that information, win his trust with a few tidbits of true information, in order to give yourself the opportunity to feed him false information later.

[Amphiox]

The comic seems to be suffering from a lack of conservation of Detail. When describing the Scribble's adventures, Shojo says that it happened Sixty Six years ago.

Well, clearly Shojo aged faster than average. As anyone will tell you, lying all time speeds up the development of wrinkles!

[orrion]

We actually do not know that at all. We do not know the reason Xykon chose the order of the gates that he went for. For all we know, it was information in the diary that prompted his choice of order, relative to what he thought was the easiest to obtain.


Actually, we do know some things. Lirian's gate was the first location that was decoded - that's why they went there first. Dorukan's gate was the next location decoded, so they went there second.

Redcloak then decoded the remaining three all at once and we know exactly why they chose Azure City out of those 3. They would have had to march too far and through too many nations (8) to reach Serini's, and they didn't want to face the logistics of getting 30,000 minions over water to the Western Continent to get to Girard's. So they picked Azure City.

No idea why they chose Girard's over Serini's, though. Maybe Xykon wanted to get as far away from Azure City as he could.

[The Pilgrim]

Actually, we do know some things. Lirian's gate was the first location that was decoded - that's why they went there first. Dorukan's gate was the next location decoded, so they went there second.

Team Evil did not originally get the location of Lirian's from the Diary. Read SoD again.

Lirian's was later the first gate to get decoded from the diary because it was the only one whose location was known by Xykon, and thus was used to learn how the location of the other gates were coded.

[SavageWombat]

Actually, we do know some things. Lirian's gate was the first location that was decoded - that's why they went there first. Dorukan's gate was the next location decoded, so they went there second.

Redcloak then decoded the remaining three all at once and we know exactly why they chose Azure City out of those 3. They would have had to march too far and through too many nations (8) to reach Serini's, and they didn't want to face the logistics of getting 30,000 minions over water to the Western Continent to get to Girard's. So they picked Azure City.

No idea why they chose Girard's over Serini's, though. Maybe Xykon wanted to get as far away from Azure City as he could.

I think you have to read into Redcloak's interrogation of O-Chul. My interpretation is that they knew what was guarding Serini's, but Girard's was a mystery, and might have been easier to handle.

[Keltest]

If I recall, Xykon found Serini's diary after the fall of Lirian's gate. The locations of the gates were in code and he found the co-ordinates of Dorukan's gate only by working backwards from the known location of Lirian's gate. After the fall of Dorukan's gate, Redcloak and Xykon returned to the diary and deduced (correctly) the locations of Soon and Girard's gates, and (under question by this idea) Kraagor's gate.

According to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), you recall incorrectly. SoD may contradict this one though, I haven't read it.

[Kish]

According to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), you recall incorrectly.
...Are you under the impression Lirian is spelled D-O-R-U-K-A-N, or what?

[Keltest]

...Are you under the impression Lirian is spelled D-O-R-U-K-A-N, or what?

"When I first found the diary, I deciphered the location of two of the gates: Lirian's Gate, which was SOMEHOW destroyed in a forest fire before it could be unlocked- -And Dorukan's Gate"

Unless my reading comprehension is terrible, that seems to say he got BOTH gates from the diary. Again, I don't own SoD so if that contradicts this, I have no way of knowing.

[Kish]

"When I first found the diary, I deciphered the location of two of the gates: Lirian's Gate, which was SOMEHOW destroyed in a forest fire before it could be unlocked- -And Dorukan's Gate"

Unless my reading comprehension is terrible, that seems to say he got BOTH gates from the diary. Again, I don't own SoD so if that contradicts this, I have no way of knowing.
"Without it, I wouldn't have known where to find Dorukan or his gate." He conspicuously doesn't mention Lirian or her gate there.

The Pilgrim already said what Start of Darkness says.

[Keltest]

"Without it, I wouldn't have known where to find Dorukan or his gate." He conspicuously doesn't mention Lirian or her gate there.

The Pilgrim already said what Start of Darkness says.

Since you seem to be ignoring what I quoted, ill direct you to panel 6. He explicitly says that he found Lirian's gate from the diary, along with Dorukan's.

Edit: Read Pilgrim's post. Ahhh.

[jidasfire]

Xykon doesn't tend to leave enemies behind him if they're worthy foes and he's wrung everything out of them that he can, and given that Serini was epic-level, it seems likely he'd put her in the worthy foe category. Still, while there's probably no way she could stand up to him in a fight, I would think an epic rogue would be quite adept at hiding and escaping, especially considering Xykon can't do divination magic. So it's possible Serini managed to get away from Xykon with her life intact, and had to leave her diary behind. The only downside to this is that if she knew an epic lich was hunting her and her friends, it seems likely she might try to reach out to them, at least Girard, with whom she seemed to be on friendly terms.

[Nightsbridge]

We actually do not know that at all. We do not know the reason Xykon chose the order of the gates that he went for. For all we know, it was information in the diary that prompted his choice of order, relative to what he thought was the easiest to obtain.

We actually do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) have some idea of how they elected to choose which gates to plunder. In fact, if I'm reading this right, Xykon might have gone straight for Kraagor's gate if not for Redcloak's tactical advice.

Edit: Dangit, someone else beat me to it.

[cheesecake]

She is alive, but cloaked in darkness under a magical umbrella.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, we know they went to Soon's Gate pretty much for the chance to slaughter paladins.

[The Pilgrim]

According to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html), you recall incorrectly. SoD may contradict this one though, I haven't read it.

SoD doesn't contradict what Xykon said in #196. It's technically true that Xykon first decyphered Lirian's location from the Diary. He just hides to the MitD the fact that he already knew said location and decyphered it in order to learn the cypher and decode all others.

But, now that you mention it, please note that Xykon's recap on what the Diary tells about the Scribbels, directly contradicts Lord Shojo's story about the Gates. According to Xykon, the Diary tells that Kraagor built Kraagor's Gate, and Serini just coded all the locations. According to Shojo, Kraagor was killed by the Snarl and Serini built Kraagor's.

[Amphiox]

It is explicit in SoD. The Dark One found out about Lirian's Gate and encoded its location into the Crimson Mantle. Xykon didn't even know that such things existed until Redcloak told him about the Plan. And he had absolutely no idea that there were others until Lirian accidentally let it slip just before he killed her.

[Sir_Leorik]

Serini is as dead as Demihuman class and level limits. And THAC0. And Non-Weapon Proficiencies. And all Arcane magic users needing to prepare spells from a spellbook. And Disco (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeaderThanDisco).

[The Grim Author]

Not necessarily, Leorik. Serini might be alive, living in the Northern Lands with the dwarves of Kraagor's Clan (if they still exist). She might be journeying the world in an airship that isn't the Mechane but which passes it in midair, at which point her keen senses hear the Order of the Stick talking about the Gate, so she decides to tail the Order and mistakes them from someone who wants to use the gates for evil and then she reveals herself to them to stop them, and while they do eventually convince her, it's too late to save Belkar from getting killed by Serini.

And then she tells them what she knows and goes off, convinced that with information and with their teamwork skills they'll be able to protect the Gate.

[Xelbiuj]

Shame Xykon's poor timing prevents this;

She's a sentient undead guarding RC/Xyk during the ritual and is going to fight the Order with the rest of the undead Scribble under her command.

Woulda been pretty epic. v.v

[Fish]

By the meta-story logic so far: if Serini is alive, she's too powerful. If she's dead, she can't tell her side of the story.

Conclusion: Serini is a ghost. Alive enough to tell her story, not alive enough to be helpful.

[orrion]

I think you have to read into Redcloak's interrogation of O-Chul. My interpretation is that they knew what was guarding Serini's, but Girard's was a mystery, and might have been easier to handle.

That's at odds with Redcloak's earlier statement that "someone wrote down how the other gates were guarded."

My own interpretation is that they had already chosen Girard's gate as their next target and wanted information about that. Or Redcloak had already tried for information about Serini's gate before. Or maybe he wrote down "Girard's gate" on his schedule in ink that day.

[Snails]

By the meta-story logic so far: if Serini is alive, she's too powerful. If she's dead, she can't tell her side of the story.

Conclusion: Serini is a ghost. Alive enough to tell her story, not alive enough to be helpful.

Yoda: There is another...

It is logically possible that Kraagor could be alive and eventually available to describe the party dynamic.

[Keltest]

Yoda: There is another...

It is logically possible that Kraagor could be alive and eventually available to describe the party dynamic.

How do you figure?

[Ridureyu]

There is a possibility, however slight, that when Kraagor was drawn into the rift, he was not killed.

'Course, he may have been killed and dragged inside, so there's that.

[Snails]

How do you figure?

Speculation...

Kraagor was trapped. We have no witnesses to his death. And he is sufficiently long-lived.

The question is whether a hopelessly trapped Kraagor could last long enough to parlay with his fellow inmate. The Scribble Tale informs us that the Snarl is absurdly lethal to gods, but much less so to mortals.

What is the staying power of an epic barbarian against the Snarl? Better than anyone the Snarl has ever met before.

We do not know how the Snarl would react to being imprisoned. We do not know how the Snarl would react to being in close proximity to the closest thing to an apparent equal as the Snarl has ever met.

Thus it is logically possible for Kraagor to still be alive. Is it likely? Oh, about a one in a million, I say. ;)

[snikrept]

Serini is on the snarl-world -- alive but unable to help until all the gates have been breached and somebody takes the desperate step of jumping through in the hope it will help

[David Argall]

Speculation...

Kraagor was trapped. We have no witnesses to his death. And he is sufficiently long-lived.

The question is whether a hopelessly trapped Kraagor could last long enough to parlay with his fellow inmate. The Scribble Tale informs us that the Snarl is absurdly lethal to gods, but much less so to mortals.

"Much less lethal" did not stop the Snarl from destroying the mortal world, and a large number of very powerful creatures, in a short time. Kraagor's chance of surviving the fight with the snarl is just zero.
Now that does not mean he is definitely dead. You are way stronger than a flea, and likely to be unable to find it, much less hurt it. So if Kraagor hid... Or this may not have been the actual snarl... or....

[BaronOfHell]

The only issue I'm having is regarding Mijung. I wonder if her soul is somewhere in the Snarl's plane of existance.

[Amphiox]

"Much less lethal" did not stop the Snarl from destroying the mortal world, and a large number of very powerful creatures, in a short time. Kraagor's chance of surviving the fight with the snarl is just zero.
Now that does not mean he is definitely dead. You are way stronger than a flea, and likely to be unable to find it, much less hurt it. So if Kraagor hid... Or this may not have been the actual snarl... or....

The Snarl is sentient, or at least could be, and what sources we have of its malevolence have already been demonstrated to be unreliable. It could easily have simply chosen to spare Kraagor. Maybe it found the dwarf barbarian amusing and decided to keep him as a pet on Snarlworld.

[Fish]

If it's necessary to invent some reason that the Order gets to hear all of the Scribble's woes, there's always (SOD spoiler):

Dorukan and Lirian. They're not dead, just in the penalty box.

[Ridureyu]

No, they are (SOD Spoilers)
Dead as Jacob Marley. Their souls are in the penalty box.

[137beth]

To clarify,
Xykon used Soul Bind, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) which prevents an already-dead person from being raised/resurrected, even by True Resurrection, unless the gem is broken. If the order gets the gem in question, either from killing Xykon or from RC/the MitD/someone else stealing it, they still wouldn't be able to bring Lirian or Dorukan back without a 17th level cleric (i.e., Redcloak), even if they are willing.

[mightycleric]

To clarify,
Xykon used Soul Bind, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) which prevents an already-dead person from being raised/resurrected, even by True Resurrection, unless the gem is broken. If the order gets the gem in question, either from killing Xykon or from RC/the MitD/someone else stealing it, they still wouldn't be able to bring Lirian or Dorukan back without a 17th level cleric (i.e., Redcloak), even if they are willing.

Actually, that's not quite true.

Once a soul gem is broken, a level 9 Cleric would be enough (though losing an epic level would certainly hurt).

[Sir_Leorik]

I think the real question is: does the story benefit from having Serini still be alive and run into the Oots? Likewise, would we be missing anything if Serini never shows up except in crayon drawings?

What is the narrative purpose of the Giant bringing her into the story? To confirm that the "Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard" is accurate? To debunk it? How exactly would a Venerable Halfling woman do that?

[prism6691]

Actually, that's not quite true.

Once a soul gem is broken, a level 9 Cleric would be enough (though losing an epic level would certainly hurt).

Actually Dorukan was killed with energy drains (assuming that counts as a death effect) and therefore it would require a Resurrection so a 13th level Cleric would be necessary. Since Lirian was turned into a zombie she would also need Resurrection. It is also well past the point time-wise where a raise dead spell would work on Lirian or Dorukan even if those two facts weren't true

[FlawedParadigm]

SoD spoiler:

Actually, thinking about it, Xykon soul-binding those two might have done Dorukan at least a favour. Durkon is high enough for the necessary Resurrection if Xykon loses that soul gem, and Dorukan might have elsewise died of old age. Given that pretty much every evil character in this story eventually creates their own bane, this is rather fitting.

[Oko and Qailee]

when the plot finally demands it.

The plot barges into the room in strip #1203 and shouts

"WHATS GOING ON WITH ME?!"

[mightycleric]

Actually Dorukan was killed with energy drains (assuming that counts as a death effect) and therefore it would require a Resurrection so a 13th level Cleric would be necessary. Since Lirian was turned into a zombie she would also need Resurrection. It is also well past the point time-wise where a raise dead spell would work on Lirian or Dorukan even if those two facts weren't true

Fair enough. I read the post as saying that True Resurrection was required because of the spell Soul Trap being used, and replied based on that (because, if other conditions were met, then breaking the Soul Gem would allow a person to be raised with any revival spell, not just True Resurrection). Since they don't have the bodies of either, it would take a True Resurrection spell to raise them (especially since, as you point out, too many days have passed for Raise Dead, though if they had a part of them, Resurrection would work).

[Rizzer]

There' s still the mystery of the scrying eye at the False Coordinates, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

I'm not certain it makes sense that was Xykon/Redcloak, or Nale, or Tarquin.
We learnt later that it's not Girard.

My money's on Serini.

[mightycleric]

There' s still the mystery of the scrying eye at the False Coordinates, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

I'm not certain it makes sense that was Xykon/Redcloak, or Nale, or Tarquin.
We learnt later that it's not Girard.

My money's on Serini.

Actually, that one has been solved. It was Zz'Dtri. Giant stated it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14733248#post14733248):

Thanks to Gift Jeraff's sig for making that link easy for me.

[Rizzer]

Actually, that one has been solved. It was Zz'Dtri. Giant stated it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14733248#post14733248)

Ah I see. Thanks :)

Links against http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html

[WindStruck]

Maybe Serini will be the equivalent of an old, decrepit, crazy cat lady. She forgot to feed all the monsters she keeps in her dungeon nearly a decade ago. They have since eaten each other and died, and now the defenses to the last gate consist of a feeble old halfling with terrible memory issues and a few dozen house cats. :smalltongue:

[veti]

My bet is that Serini is alive, just because it feels like a more satisfying story if the Order eventually get to meet one of the Scribblers face to face.

(Although I guess they could also do that by going through a rift and encountering Kraagor.)

[Amphiox]

Serini being venerable easily gets around the "she'd be too powerful she'd overshadow the Order" problem.

And really, it isn't a problem. The only character she'd have a remote chance of overshadowing is Haley, and the only from a mechanistic point of view. (And the simplest way to avoid that is just to make it so that Serini has not specialized in archery) Haley has plenty enough unique narrative issues to keep her character arc going for a long, long time.

So Serini is a low-epic rogue. As Bozzok demonstrated with his utter inability to do anything in combat against Belkar despite a 4-5 level advantage, Serini would not be a match even for Roy in combat. Without arcane power, she's no threat on her own to Xykon or Redcloak. She provides the Order absolutely no combat edge in the final confrontation even if she was there. And whatever epic resources she might have to apply to the plot is already accounted for in that she's the builder and designer and potential maintainer of Kraagor's Gate.

[Keltest]

Maybe Serini will be the equivalent of an old, decrepit, crazy cat lady. She forgot to feed all the monsters she keeps in her dungeon nearly a decade ago. They have since eaten each other and died, and now the defenses to the last gate consist of a feeble old halfling with terrible memory issues and a few dozen house cats. :smalltongue:

The number three rule of story dungeons is that as the number of creatures increases, the amount of food required approaches zero. Very quickly.

[WindStruck]

The number three rule of story dungeons is that as the number of creatures increases, the amount of food required approaches zero. Very quickly.

Well yeah but rule of funny trumps that. :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

It would be interesting to see, though I don't think it likely to happen, the Order find that Soul Gem, and for V to figure out some good-aligned way of Soul Splicing with Lirian and Durokan....

[quasit]

It would be interesting to see, though I don't think it likely to happen, the Order find that Soul Gem, and for V to figure out some good-aligned way of Soul Splicing with Lirian and Durokan....

Just wonder if a good aligned soul-splice would allow for divine casting, as the IFCC didn't , not even by means of wish.
Probably won't happen though, it was an once on a lifetime deal after all.

[Keltest]

Just wonder if a good aligned soul-splice would allow for divine casting, as the IFCC didn't , not even by means of wish.
Probably won't happen though, it was an once on a lifetime deal after all.

Given that Divine spells are blessings from the deities rather than manipulations of arcane forces, I doubt it. The chances of even having the same Deity isn't great. A druid might work though.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Just wonder if a good aligned soul-splice would allow for divine casting, as the IFCC didn't , not even by means of wish.

That was part of their non-compete deal with Evil deities. Nothing intrinsic to the soul splice per se.

[Sir_Leorik]

Serini being venerable easily gets around the "she'd be too powerful she'd overshadow the Order" problem.

And really, it isn't a problem. The only character she'd have a remote chance of overshadowing is Haley, and the only from a mechanistic point of view. (And the simplest way to avoid that is just to make it so that Serini has not specialized in archery) Haley has plenty enough unique narrative issues to keep her character arc going for a long, long time.

So Serini is a low-epic rogue. As Bozzok demonstrated with his utter inability to do anything in combat against Belkar despite a 4-5 level advantage, Serini would not be a match even for Roy in combat. Without arcane power, she's no threat on her own to Xykon or Redcloak. She provides the Order absolutely no combat edge in the final confrontation even if she was there. And whatever epic resources she might have to apply to the plot is already accounted for in that she's the builder and designer and potential maintainer of Kraagor's Gate.

Serini would be overshadowing the Order by being an ally, not an antagonist. As an ally who swoops in and solves all of their problems for them (as opposed to an antagonist like Miko who makes everything worse), Serini would be stealing the Order's thunder. So from a storytelling perspective, she needs to either be dead, living in a remote part of the world, or so old that she can't actually help them besides giving bits of advice.


The number three rule of story dungeons is that as the number of creatures increases, the amount of food required approaches zero. Very quickly.

That's what the Random Monster Generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Greyhawk_(module)) is there for, duh! :smallbiggrin: (Or Deepspawn, for those who consider module WG7 a work of utter blasphemy.)

[DeliaP]

Just wonder if a good aligned soul-splice would allow for divine casting, as the IFCC didn't , not even by means of wish.
Probably won't happen though, it was an once on a lifetime deal after all.

I doubt that Soul Splice is, in principle, actually as rare as the IFCC made out. They might just have been adding to the high pressure sales tactics. (Redcloak and Xykon seemed to figure it out fast enough.)


Given that Divine spells are blessings from the deities rather than manipulations of arcane forces, I doubt it. The chances of even having the same Deity isn't great. A druid might work though.

Good thing Lirian was a druid, not a cleric! :smallsmile:

I think the point about the limitation was that the soul splicer couldn't use a wish or limited wish to mimic a divine spell. An arcane spellcaster wouldn't need the intervention of a deity to cast a divine spell by those means.

Mind you, I don't expect Soul Splice to make a reappearance. (But I do expect the Gem containing Lirian and Dorukan to play a role....)


Serini would be overshadowing the Order by being an ally, not an antagonist. As an ally who swoops in and solves all of their problems for them (as opposed to an antagonist like Miko who makes everything worse), Serini would be stealing the Order's thunder. So from a storytelling perspective, she needs to either be dead, living in a remote part of the world, or so old that she can't actually help them besides giving bits of advice.

I thought Amphiox's point was that even an epic level rogue ally wouldn't actually overshadow the Order. How would Serini be able to swoop in and solve the Orders problems?

Mind you, I do recall a couple of Conan stories (R E Howard's originals) in which Conan only defeats a mighty sorceror through freeing and setting an even mightier enemy on him! (Tower of the Elephant, and The Scarlet Citadel). So, you know, if it's good enough for Conan....:smallwink:

[Infinite]

Serini HAS to be alive!

[sparkyinbozo]

I'm voting on the alive option with the bonus of her replacing Belkar after he dies, purely for story reasons. As noted, she can explain the OotSc history and will likely be motivated to help the order. Plus this way they keep the racial diversity :D

[Amphiox]

Serini would be overshadowing the Order by being an ally, not an antagonist. As an ally who swoops in and solves all of their problems for them (as opposed to an antagonist like Miko who makes everything worse), Serini would be stealing the Order's thunder. So from a storytelling perspective, she needs to either be dead, living in a remote part of the world, or so old that she can't actually help them besides giving bits of advice.


But that's my point. She CAN'T solve all the Order's problems for them. Even at her full level strength without being venerable, as a low-epic rogue she doesn't have the capacity to solve all that many problems for the order OTHER than giving them information. In terms of actually solving plot problems she cannot overshadow anyone except for Haley. In terms of character development and plot advancement, there is enormous potential to have her interact with the party. It shouldn't be hard at all for a writer of the Giant's caliber to avoid the "overshadowing" problem.

And allies don't always just "solve" plot problems. Allies can produce plot problems and make things worse too. In fact the most likely role for Serini as an ally is to arrive and inform the Order that everything they thought they knew about the Gates and the Snarl was actually wrong, that everything they've been trying to do until know has been undertaken on mistaken premises. And that will basically make things instantly worse for them.

[luna the cat]

Serini is the MitD

this... actually makes sense...

[luna the cat]

as someone mentioned, all the gates exhibit some sort of hubris that leads to their downfall

serini believed that power through the most powerful monsters was the best defense

what if she made herself into a monster in order to protect the gate, but through the process lost her... dwarfness and wandered around instead of protecting the gate?

this would explain why xykon and redcloak knew what she was, because perhaps in her diary she outlined the process of willingly turning into a monster, and figured they could control and use her (not knowing that there are traces of serini deep down)

[Amphiox]

as someone mentioned, all the gates exhibit some sort of hubris that leads to their downfall

serini believed that power through the most powerful monsters was the best defense

what if she made herself into a monster in order to protect the gate, but through the process lost her... dwarfness and wandered around instead of protecting the gate?

this would explain why xykon and redcloak knew what she was, because perhaps in her diary she outlined the process of willingly turning into a monster, and figured they could control and use her (not knowing that there are traces of serini deep down)

That's a fascinating theory, but at least per what we've heard, Serini used monsters in honor of Kraagor, and it was Kraagor who valued strength above all - she built the Gate defence based on what she thought Kraagor would have thought was the best defence, not what she herself would have thought.

It is interesting to wonder what Serini's own fatal flaw will turn out to be. Maybe it is simply the idea that she would choose to use another's idea, and not her own....

[WindStruck]

as someone mentioned, all the gates exhibit some sort of hubris that leads to their downfall

serini believed that power through the most powerful monsters was the best defense

what if she made herself into a monster in order to protect the gate, but through the process lost her... dwarfness and wandered around instead of protecting the gate?

this would explain why xykon and redcloak knew what she was, because perhaps in her diary she outlined the process of willingly turning into a monster, and figured they could control and use her (not knowing that there are traces of serini deep down)

Hehe that's interesting. So MitD is really Serini, who was supposed to protect the gates. Or just her gate. Details.

Maybe that also explains why it keeps saying "What Gate?" Every time the gates are mentioned, it temporarily has a Blue Screen of Death.

[luna the cat]

i am just imagining an epic fight scene between order of the stick and the MitD as they get crushed while frantically trying to help MitD realize that they were serini and to remember that she's actually a hero and not a monster

(and this would be because azure city and orchuk finally realized through investigation what MitD was)

then MitD sacrifices themselves to save the order of the stick but exhausts her power and she realizes that instead of placing faith in the power of monsters, she and the order of the scribble should have placed faith in the next generation of heroes to arise instead, as they themselves were once adventurers who conquered the snarl

[orrion]

as someone mentioned, all the gates exhibit some sort of hubris that leads to their downfall

serini believed that power through the most powerful monsters was the best defense

what if she made herself into a monster in order to protect the gate, but through the process lost her... dwarfness and wandered around instead of protecting the gate?

this would explain why xykon and redcloak knew what she was, because perhaps in her diary she outlined the process of willingly turning into a monster, and figured they could control and use her (not knowing that there are traces of serini deep down)

I disagree that Dorukan exhibited hubris, and explained why earlier in the thread.

I don't have SoD handy. When did they acquire the diary relative to meeting the MitD? And there is any evidence in DnD that you can voluntarily turn yourself into a monster with abilities like the MitD has displayed? A lich is one thing, but that?




then MitD sacrifices themselves to save the order of the stick but exhausts her power and she realizes that instead of placing faith in the power of monsters, she and the order of the scribble should have placed faith in the next generation of heroes to arise instead, as they themselves were once adventurers who conquered the snarl

How's that work? They shouldn't have guarded the gates at all?

They never conquered the Snarl. They just repaired the threads that were fraying.

[Keltest]

I disagree that Dorukan exhibited hubris, and explained why earlier in the thread.

I don't have SoD handy. When did they acquire the diary relative to meeting the MitD? And there is any evidence in DnD that you can voluntarily turn yourself into a monster with abilities like the MitD has displayed? A lich is one thing, but that?



How's that work? They shouldn't have guarded the gates at all?

They never conquered the Snarl. They just repaired the threads that were fraying.

Word of Giant is that the MitD isn't something he just made up for the comic; it exists somewhere in some other source. While I don't know what any side effects are, if you could wrangle enough power you could certainly polymorph (lacking a better term) yourself into a monster permanently, though I doubt that it would be practical, especially for a rogue, given the resources likely required. Adding to that some sort of Quest type spell or otherwise completely wiping her mind would be even less practical. But its technically possible from what I know.

[zimmerwald1915]

(But I do expect the Gem containing Lirian and Dorukan to play a role....)
I don't, and will continue to not expect it until some mention of it is made in the online comic.

[Snails]

It is interesting to wonder what Serini's own fatal flaw will turn out to be. Maybe it is simply the idea that she would choose to use another's idea, and not her own....

I think her fatal flaw is simply that she expected her teammates to put aside their differences against a common threat, before there was only one Gate left, because protecting the universe pulled them together once before.

If we meet Serini, she will probably be a sad senile old woman, who is mystified why her friends could not rise above their differences, because she knows that in their hearts they are better people.

[orrion]

I think her fatal flaw is simply that she expected her teammates to put aside their differences against a common threat, before there was only one Gate left, because protecting the universe pulled them together once before.

If we meet Serini, she will probably be a sad senile old woman, who is mystified why her friends could not rise above their differences, because she knows that in their hearts they are better people.

What teammates?

By the time ANY gates were under threat Soon was dead, and Girard was likely dead. First gate down resulted in Lirian's death, so there was only Dorukan left (and didn't he make a reference to "us" trying to find and resurrect Lirian?).


You could argue that Girard's group should have made a better effort, but Shojo was already actively trying and the Paladins were precluded. Nothing was left of Lirian's defenders after her gate fell, so there's nobody there to act, and Dorukan probably figured getting in contact with Lirian one way or another would provide the best way to assess a threat.

[Sir_Leorik]

as someone mentioned, all the gates exhibit some sort of hubris that leads to their downfall

serini believed that power through the most powerful monsters was the best defense

what if she made herself into a monster in order to protect the gate, but through the process lost her... dwarfness and wandered around instead of protecting the gate?

this would explain why xykon and redcloak knew what she was, because perhaps in her diary she outlined the process of willingly turning into a monster, and figured they could control and use her (not knowing that there are traces of serini deep down)

"Ooh, that's a great idea Brain! Oh wait, no, no, it won't work."

"Why, pray tell, wouldn't it, Pinky?"

"Oh, it's obvious, Serini's a Halfling, not a Dwarf! Narf!"

/PinkyandtheBrain

[Keltest]

"Ooh, that's a great idea Brain! Oh wait, no, no, it won't work."

"Why, pray tell, wouldn't it, Pinky?"

"Oh, it's obvious, Serini's a Halfling, not a Dwarf! Narf!"

/PinkyandtheBrain

he would have said Poit! there. And the fact that I can say that with any degree of confidence scares the heck outta me.

[DeliaP]

I don't have SoD handy. When did they acquire the diary relative to meeting the MitD?
SoD spoliers:

The MitD was a circus show attraction at Right-Eye's village, when Redcloak showed up to visit. Redcloak told Right-Eye that Xykon had disappeared a while ago...

Then Xykon turned up at the village, with the information about Dorukan's dungeon that he got from Serini's diary.

So Team Evil encountered the two seemingly independently and in a similar time frame. However, I'm not sure how much earlier the hunters first captured the MitD...





(But I do expect the Gem containing Lirian and Dorukan to play a role....)

I don't, and will continue to not expect it until some mention of it is made in the online comic.

That... is a very good point. You're right, without some introduction of it online, it is unlikely to suddenly be revealed. (And how the howls of DEM will ring out if it is!!)

However, some SoD content has been suddenly turned into a big reveal, like the fact Redcloak had been deceiving Xykon about the Plan all along.

And some content in SoD has yet to be even hinted at, but will very probably come into effect....

For example, significant SoD Spoiler:

No, really, this is a potentially big spoiler. Don't press that button if you haven't read SoD....
Xykon's suggestion spell on the MitD

[zimmerwald1915]

And some content in SoD has yet to be even hinted at, but will very probably come into effect....

For example, significant SoD Spoiler:

No, really, this is a potentially big spoiler. Don't press that button if you haven't read SoD....
Xykon's suggestion spell on the MitD
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that spell was a geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm). As for reveals, Xykon knows at least two 6th-level spells the Order doesn't know about. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

[DeliaP]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that spell was a geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm). As for reveals, Xykon knows at least two 6th-level spells the Order doesn't know about. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

Oooh, well spotted: I think I might buy your suggestion for the spell.

But I still think that's a pretty big jump from squinting at Page 2 Panel 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html), guessing how the many gaps might be filled, to an online foreshadowing of the potential impact of the spell Xykon cast on the MitD.


Mind you, I would still expect some online reference to "that thing in the spoilers" before it actually has an impact, just as I might expect some online foreshadowing or mention of the gem before it becomes plot critical (Yeah, I probably should have spoilered that original prediction too... sorry). But I do still expect both to come into play.


Oh, hey, I just looked again at Xykon's spell list, and Soul Bind is clearly listed. (How exactly O-Chul got that info is another question!) So there's probably more online foreshadowing for the gem coming into play than there is for the geas coming into play, on that argument!

[Vovix]

Serini is probably dead of old age by now. Soon not only died of old age, he died of old age when Shojo was a small boy. This means that the Order of the Scribble found the gates about 120 years ago, which is around the maximum halfling lifespan. Serini would have had to have been very young at the time of the discovery of the gates AND live longer than most halflings by quite a bit. So, yeah, probably dead.

[Porthos]

Serini is probably dead of old age by now. Soon not only died of old age, he died of old age when Shojo was a small boy. This means that the Order of the Scribble found the gates about 120 years ago, which is around the maximum halfling lifespan. Serini would have had to have been very young at the time of the discovery of the gates AND live longer than most halflings by quite a bit. So, yeah, probably dead.

Per SoD, it's actually about 65 years before the start of OotS. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

Shojo tells us that Soon & Lirian first encountered a gate in the elven lands some "sixty-six years ago"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[DeliaP]

What we don't know is how old the Scribblers were at the time they gathered. Soon could have been approaching middle age when they started, and Serini could have been young for a halfling....

(Not making a claim one way or the other, just proposing we don't know)

[martianmister]

She's deader than Xykon.

[Psyren]

The only accurate information we know it contained were the gate locations. It clearly gave Xykon no warning whatsoever about Soon's Ghost Martyr trick, for example, which almost did the bony one in.

The best cons contain some truth to rope the victims in....

Counterpoint: given that Soon had to be dead to come up with that one, and the fact that she likely didn't get along with him (first of all, rogue, and second, she had the hots for the guy that hated his guts) it's just as likely that she simply didn't know how his gate was defended beyond "he put a bunch of paladins in front of it."

[Keltest]

What we don't know is how old the Scribblers were at the time they gathered. Soon could have been approaching middle age when they started, and Serini could have been young for a halfling....

(Not making a claim one way or the other, just proposing we don't know)

Even if she was young for a Halfling, all given timelines indicate that she would at the very least be quite old. if she wasn't at the peak of youth (for an adventurer) then she would quite possibly be on her deathbed.


Counterpoint: given that Soon had to be dead to come up with that one, and the fact that she likely didn't get along with him (first of all, rogue, and second, she had the hots for the guy that hated his guts) it's just as likely that she simply didn't know how his gate was defended beyond "he put a bunch of paladins in front of it."

Admittedly, that's pretty much all he did. Even the Ghost Martyrs were just paladin swarm 2.0

[halfeye]

My guess is that she is not alive.

[Clistenes]

What if Serini really did take levels as Paladin, and is now a Rogue 20/Paladin 20? She would have to become LG, but we aren't even sure she was Chaotic to start with.

By the time the Order of the Stick arrive she has already beaten the crap out of Xykon and Redcloak, but the Order somehow mess if badly and Xykon and Redcloak defeat her and seize the gate...


Even if she was young for a Halfling, all given timelines indicate that she would at the very least be quite old. if she wasn't at the peak of youth (for an adventurer) then she would quite possibly be on her deathbed.

She has the means to build a massive dungeon and populate it with monsters, so she probably had access to powerful magic that could stall her aging. Or ask her elf druid friend to reincarnate her when she got old. We know that Lirian and Dorukan keep contact with each other, so, why not Serini too?

[Socksy]

My vote is that she isn't alive. (So unmade, dead, non-sentient undead, what have you.)

[Keltest]

She has the means to build a massive dungeon and populate it with monsters, so she probably had access to powerful magic that could stall her aging. Or ask her elf druid friend to reincarnate her when she got old. We know that Lirian and Dorukan keep contact with each other, so, why not Serini too?

Yes, but why would she? Its not like her presence was required for the dungeon to function, and the afterlife for Chaotic good people is nice. Chaotic Neutral wouldn't be too unpleasant either.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes, but why would she? Its not like her presence was required for the dungeon to function, and the afterlife for Chaotic good people is nice. Chaotic Neutral wouldn't be too unpleasant either.

Depends which one. Ysgard (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral) can be very fun for those who like to party, carouse and get into fights, and Pandemonium (Chaotic Neutral/Chaotic Evil) can be pretty interesting if you own a sturdy pair of earplugs, but Limbo (Chaotic Neutral) is all full of homicidal frogs, instability and the Elemental Chaos from which the cosmos sprang forth. It's really not that appealing. And that's before you get into the Githzerai. Who let all those Monks in? :smallyuk:

:smalltongue:

[Kish]

There is little or no evidence that Serini was Chaotic. ("Little" if one reads Girard's anti-paladin, anti-religion, anti-Soon rant as also taking in everyone of non-Chaotic alignments...and simultaneously presumes he was being perfectly honest there. "No" if that is not the case. There are no alignment restrictions on the rogue class.)

[Keltest]

Depends which one. Ysgard (Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral) can be very fun for those who like to party, carouse and get into fights, and Pandemonium (Chaotic Neutral/Chaotic Evil) can be pretty interesting if you own a sturdy pair of earplugs, but Limbo (Chaotic Neutral) is all full of homicidal frogs, instability and the Elemental Chaos from which the cosmos sprang forth. It's really not that appealing. And that's before you get into the Githzerai. Who let all those Monks in? :smallyuk:

:smalltongue:

I don't think the normal D&D afterlives really apply in OOTS. At the very least a special afterlife for dwarves who died of illnesses suggests that Rich made up his own stuff.

[DeliaP]

Even if she was young for a Halfling, all given timelines indicate that she would at the very least be quite old. if she wasn't at the peak of youth (for an adventurer) then she would quite possibly be on her deathbed.

Fair point.

If she's alive, she's either very very old or has magically enhanced her lifespan, despite the fact that, that of her companions, Girard, the near epic level sorceror (?), probably didn't and Dorukan, the epic level wizard, was alive but had clearly aged considerably. So the two people she knew most likely to have the means to have a magically enhanced lifespan showed no evidence of having done so.

Against my desire to see Serini alive and finally providing the inside info on the Scribblers, add the aging issue to the "How did Xykon get the diary" issue... and it's not looking good for a living Serini.

[Psyren]

We haven't had nearly enough interactions with her to determine her alignment, nor does it ultimately matter to the thread question.

[Ghost Nappa]

Assuming Serini is a Lightfoot Halfling (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Halflings,_Lightfoot_(Race)), she would be ~86 years old minimum at the start of #0001. She can live to be up to 200 years old, with an average life-span of about ~150.

Serini appears to be a standard adult female halfling from what little of her we've seen, and Rogue age is Simple, suggesting that she was between 20-28 when she started adventuring. If one assumes she was 28, she would be ~94 years old.

If she is Alive, then she has necessarily hit the "Old" Age category (-3 STR, -3 DEX, -3 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA) and possibly venerable (a cumulative -6 STR, DEX, CON, +3 INT, WIS, CHA).


If she has not been killed, she is likely alive.

[DeliaP]

Assuming Serini is a Lightfoot Halfling (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Halflings,_Lightfoot_(Race)), she would be ~86 years old minimum at the start of #0001. She can live to be up to 100 years old, with an average life-span of about ~150.

Serini appears to be a standard adult female halfling from what little of her we've seen, and Rogue age is Simple, suggesting that she was between 20-28 when she started adventuring. If one assumes she was 28, she would be ~94 years old.

If she is Alive, then she has necessarily hit the "Old" Age category (-3 STR, -3 DEX, -3 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA) and possibly venerable (a cumulative -6 STR, DEX, CON, +3 INT, WIS, CHA).


If she has not been killed, she is likely alive.

Oooooh... nice. OK, changing my mind again! She's Alive!! :-)

ps. Seriously, CHA get's higher for old and venerable?? They ought to meet some old people I know!

[The Grim Author]

She's deader than Xykon.

So she became a lich, but then her phylactery got destroyed shortly before she did?

[martianmister]

So she became a lich, but then her phylactery got destroyed shortly before she did?

No, she didn't become a lich. Or any kind of undead.

[The Grim Author]

No, she didn't become a lich. Or any kind of undead.

Ah, but you said she was deader than Xykon, who has died while undead. So in order to be deader than him, she would have to have died while undead and stayed dead.

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't think the normal D&D afterlives really apply in OOTS. At the very least a special afterlife for dwarves who died of illnesses suggests that Rich made up his own stuff.

That's pretty consistent with what the D&D version of Hela does, actually. :smallamused:

[David Argall]

Assuming Serini is a Lightfoot Halfling (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Halflings,_Lightfoot_(Race)), she would be ~86 years old minimum at the start of #0001. She can live to be up to 200 years old, with an average life-span of about ~150.

Serini appears to be a standard adult female halfling from what little of her we've seen, and Rogue age is Simple, suggesting that she was between 20-28 when she started adventuring. If one assumes she was 28, she would be ~94 years old.
However, we don't know that the Order of the Scribble was her first adventure, or anything close to it. In fact what evidence we have suggests the Scribbles for the most part were well past the official starting ages. Soon is said to have duties that are unlikely to be assigned to the young. Our elf too seems to have work that would not be assigned to a novice. And Serini calls the wizard a kid. While that can mean he was only days younger than she, a considerable gap would seem more likely, [and we would go by age categories rather that just years. An elf of 100 might be called a kid by a human of 20.] So there is a good chance that Serini started the story over 30.



If she has not been killed, she is likely alive.
But this would still seem to be correct.

[Psyren]

I have to say that if anyone could fake their death, it would be an epic rogue. So if Xykon ran into her and she survived, there's a number of explanations why he would think he had snuffed her out.

He also may not have encountered her after all. The title of her diary - "The Life and Times of Serini Toormuck" - implies it was meant for a wider audience. Even MitD thought it was a biography based on the title.

Though the fact that Xykon "went through a great deal of trouble" to get it isn't exactly promising.

[Sky_Schemer]

ps. Seriously, CHA get's higher for old and venerable?? They ought to meet some old people I know!

Think of it as "force of personality" instead of "personable". You can still have high charisma and be a bitter, nasty person. It just means people find you intriguing or hilarious or whatnot until they get to know you. Kind of like some stand-up comedians. :smallbiggrin:

[The Grim Author]

Think of it as "force of personality" instead of "personable". You can still have high charisma and be a bitter, nasty person. It just means people find you intriguing or hilarious or whatnot until they get to know you. Kind of like some stand-up comedians. :smallbiggrin:

For some reason my mind has now wandered to Pierce Hawthorne on Community.

[martianmister]

Ah, but you said she was deader than Xykon, who has died while undead.

Xykon hasn't died. And even if you count his regenerating process as "death", it doesn't change his status as an undead. Otherwise Roy would be deader than Elan, since he died and resurrected.


So in order to be deader than him, she would have to have died while undead and stayed dead.

These is three different classes: Non-dead, un-dead and dead. Non-deads are living beings, deads are "died and stayed that way" beings, un-deads are somewhere in between, they are deader than living things, but less deader than dead creatures.

[DeliaP]

These is three different classes: Non-dead, un-dead and dead. Non-deads are living beings, deads are "died and stayed that way" beings, un-deads are somewhere in between, they are deader than living things, but less deader than dead creatures.

So how does one get to be "deader than dead"?

[martianmister]

So how does one get to be "deader than dead"?

Not living in first place?

[Keltest]

I have to say that if anyone could fake their death, it would be an epic rogue. So if Xykon ran into her and she survived, there's a number of explanations why he would think he had snuffed her out.

He also may not have encountered her after all. The title of her diary - "The Life and Times of Serini Toormuck" - implies it was meant for a wider audience. Even MitD thought it was a biography based on the title.

Though the fact that Xykon "went through a great deal of trouble" to get it isn't exactly promising.

It could have been intended to be an autobiography until the whole "world-ending secrets" thing came into play.