Archivist or wizard?

[D4rkh0rus]

Hey playground. In a party that has neither a wizard nor a cleric type of character... Which one would be best to choose?

Also, is there any prc that gives domains and or turning attempts without taking spellcasting levels that isn't contemplative? (lvl 11 is kinda late) is a cleric dip for this purpose and 19 archivist a bad idea? will it make it too powerful?

( mostly optimized party members, mainly martial. We will have a character entering into chameleon tough)

[Ramza00]

For buffs they are about equal, wizard has better conjuration though, archivist has more variety.

[HunterOfJello]

Holt Warden from Complete Champion gives you the Plant Domain and it actually functions in the way that a cleric's domain spells do (instead of the guidelines set by Complete Divine).

If the group has neither a cleric, nor a wizard then an archivist could be good. It depends on what you want to provide them with. If you simply need someone to throw out healing spells on rare occasion along with the Restoration-type spells then archivist is a good choice.

It also depends on which books you have available and what classes you are allowed to pull divine spells from.


What level are you starting at? There are some good dual progression builds that can be pretty effective if you use early access methods.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you're willing to do a deep book dive you can find almost every toy Wizard gets that Cleric doesn't on some obscure domain. If you do this Archivist becomes far better than Wizard.

Sacred Exorcist requires Good Alignment and not much else, 10/10 casting and grants Turn Undead at level 1.

[Doxkid]

Archivists are the rich man's Wizard, but only if you don't mind cheese. Powerful spells often come in earlier for the archivist than the wizard because of Rangers and Paladins.

The spells that don't appear early are still available...and you could possibly combo spells no single character would normally have access to.

[foobar1969]

Archivist depends heavily on the availability of scrolls in the campaign, so ask your DM about that. If they're rare, Archivist is a less versatile Cleric. If Druid, Paladin & Ranger scrolls are easily found, Archivist is super strong. If domain, Adept, & Divine Bard scrolls are at the local Magic Mart, Archivist approaches Tier 0. Then it's time to ask if you can get Runescarred Berserker scrolls...

[D4rkh0rus]

I see...
So I would end up Archvist.

I was thnking something like Cloistered Cleric 1/Archivist 1-6/Sacred exorcist 1-2/Archivist 7/Contemplative 1-2/Archivist 8-15...

Would something like this work? or would just going straight cleric x/prcs x better?

(In terms of access to spells, DM doesnt like magic marts, but he has no problem If I find a caster who can teach me the spell or find a scroll. there's also a black market of sorts. So access to any scroll is there, if only a bit more difficult that going to the magic mart.

Theres a feat called collegiate priest or something like that... that effectively turns the Arch. into an int based class...
But does it make much difference?
(I was thinking of wisdom Cuz I might go Zen archer + divine power/might)

Also, If i had a level of cleric with destroy undead, would sacred exorcist give me another turn pool (turn undead) or would they stack?

(I want to DMM persist a few buffs, not 50 or so like the normal builds, just divine power and maybe vigor... No such thing as nightsticks in my campaign)

[sideswipe]

wait. with that amount of levels your taking the minimum is 19 and the maximum 33. are you epic level? if so class is rarely important then because you can just create spells. and then it becomes unimportant as you say things along these lines...

i have just spent all my resources on pumping my spellcraft high and i make this spell which gives me X to spellcraft permanently. then i use my better understanding of knowledge to make a spell which is quickened and is a save or die with dc 1000.
or i deliver 100k untyped damage with this quickened maximised spell i have made.

epic levels are silly.

[D4rkh0rus]

wait. with that amount of levels your taking the minimum is 19 and the maximum 33. are you epic level? if so class is rarely important then because you can just create spells. and then it becomes unimportant as you say things along these lines...

i have just spent all my resources on pumping my spellcraft high and i make this spell which gives me X to spellcraft permanently. then i use my better understanding of knowledge to make a spell which is quickened and is a save or die with dc 1000.
or i deliver 100k untyped damage with this quickened maximised spell i have made.

epic levels are silly.

no no I was saying

CC 1 (1 lvl cleric)/Archivist 1-6 (6 lvls archivist)/Sacred exorcist 1-2 (2 lvls SE)/Archivist 7 (1 lvl archivist)/contemplative 1-2 (2 lvls contemplative)/archivist 8-15 (8 lvls archivist)

In total it would be 1+6+2+1+2+8 = 20

[Jeff the Green]

For scroll access, as long as you can find someone able to cast the spell and spend a day or two helping you, you can craft the scroll together. In general, I think that 30% of the price of the scroll is appropriate, since if you were just buying it from them that's how much they'd get after accounting for raw materials and XP (5 GP/XP). Alternatively, get a Quill of Scribing and just have them cast the spell into it for 10*spell level*CL.

The Destroy Undead ACF doesn't work for Divine Feats like DMM. Only the azurin cleric sub level does. You can pick up rebuke with dread necromancer or death delver. Dread necromancer also has the advantage of unlimited healing with a feat or being undead and qualifying you for Versatile Caster, which is very nice on an archivist.

Incidentally, the standard format for writing out builds like that is to use "+class" for the second instance. So cleric 1/archivist 6/sacred exorcist 2/archivist +1/contemplative 2/archivist +8. Or group all the archivist levels together.

Anyway, why Contemplative? You can learn domain spells just fine and between a good Will, non-dumped Wisdom, and Still Mind, you shouldn't need Slippery Mind.

[D4rkh0rus]

For scroll access, as long as you can find someone able to cast the spell and spend a day or two helping you, you can craft the scroll together. In general, I think that 30% of the price of the scroll is appropriate, since if you were just buying it from them that's how much they'd get after accounting for raw materials and XP (5 GP/XP). Alternatively, get a Quill of Scribing and just have them cast the spell into it for 10*spell level*CL.

The Destroy Undead ACF doesn't work for Divine Feats like DMM. Only the azurin cleric sub level does. You can pick up rebuke with dread necromancer or death delver. Dread necromancer also has the advantage of unlimited healing with a feat or being undead and qualifying you for Versatile Caster, which is very nice on an archivist.

Incidentally, the standard format for writing out builds like that is to use "+class" for the second instance. So cleric 1/archivist 6/sacred exorcist 2/archivist +1/contemplative 2/archivist +8. Or group all the archivist levels together.

Anyway, why Contemplative? You can learn domain spells just fine and between a good Will, non-dumped Wisdom, and Still Mind, you shouldn't need Slippery Mind.

Ah allright. Contemplative is for extra domain and disease immunity + still mind. just in case.

[Jeff the Green]

Divine Oracle might be better. You can cure diseases trivially by the time you can get into Contemplative, it gives Evasion (that works in any armor), the domain power it grants is pretty awesome and can be swapped for anything your deity grants for days at a time with a second level spell.

It costs a feat, but that can be bought (Frog God's Fane, CS) for 2000 GP.

[Anthrowhale]

At a high caster level an extended owl's insight cast just before memorizing spells makes Wisdom a desirable trait for bonus spells.

{Church Inquisitor, Divine Oracle, Contemplative, Holt Warden} give essentially-free bonus domains.

Lore Master gives a bonus feat to an int-based spellcaster.

Sacred Exorcist provides turn undead.

Church Inquisitor is made for early entry, so this is 5 levels after level 5, leaving precisely 10 levels for a prestige class, if desired.

If starting below 17th level, I'd suggest dropping the level of cloistered cleric.