How to kill a lich

[Dalebert]

There's at least one person on here who loves to point out how nigh invulnerable lichs are because you have to destroy their phylactery or they just res later and any smart lich puts it somewhere no one will be able to find. That raises a lot of questions for me that seem to be left ambiguous in the RAW. I brought this up in a thread but it was left unaddressed so I thought it was maybe worth a thread. I think this thread is going to have to veer far away from the RAW and into speculations and house rules about how any particular DM chooses to handle it. It's relevant based on establishing just HOW immortal and impervious you want a lich to be in your game.

How does it res him? Does it repair and resurrect his old body? If so, could you guard over his body and wait, possibly taking him down again before he could recover fully and/or torture or use magic against him to discover the location? Are there range limitations?

Does it turn the nearest dead body into his new body? (Possibly specially prepared and placed in a coffin with the phylactery)

Does it act as a magic jar and allow him to possess a humanoid body temporarily until he can fashion a new body?

When I looked up the word, it may have been inspired by this Jewish prayer tradition (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phylactery). Can he bury it away and forget about it forever or does he have to commune with it sometimes? It says it has his soul in it. Might he need it to rejuvenate his energy in some way? Prepare spells?

Is any of this clarified somewhere else than the MM?

On a side note, has anyone ever tried to have a PC become a lich?

[Doxkid]

There are no concrete rules on how a Lich comes from his Phylactery. There ARE plenty of stories, folktales, novels and even manga about Lich-like creatures. Most people use at least one of those as the foundation for how a Lich works.

[hymer]

It seems to me that the lich gets the phylactery mostly for the same reason vampires get the ability to turn gaseous and head back to their coffins. It makes these undead excellent recurring villains at various levels, because they have these wonderful ways of coming back after a defeat. The PCs can actually get to meet the villain and cross swords with him.

As for your questions, there's little ruley-stuff attached to it. It's just that the lich pops back into existence after a randomly determined number of days. I see no indication that he needs bodies, or that he returns to his own. I assume a fresh one is created for the purpose, once the phylactery has amassed the energy required.
I see no indication that the lich needs his phylactery on a recurring basis (other than if his body keeps getting crunched), and he would be wise to keep it in a distant and secret place, and just check in on the place from time to time to make sure the guardians, traps, alarms and anti-detection devices are still in place and functioning. Obviously, he should have a system in place so he becomes aware immediately if his phylactery is in danger.
I assume any popping back into existence would occur near the phylactery, which is another reason to have certain measures and resources in place, so he can start again from there if all his base are belong to the PCs.

[kkplx]

Some of the infos in here might help you figure out ways to deal with the problem ;) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29570)

[Dalebert]

It seems to me that the lich gets the phylactery mostly for the same reason vampires get the ability to turn gaseous and head back to their coffins. It makes these undead excellent recurring villains at various levels, because they have these wonderful ways of coming back after a defeat. The PCs can actually get to meet the villain and cross swords with him.

Yep. I'm inclined to agree. Still, he could be the BBEG and there would presumably be a way to finally destroy him for good (unless you want to make 10 Hellraiser sequels and beyond, I guess). The question then goes back to HOW immortal is a lich? How might the party finally achieve the end goal of destroying the phylactery and the lich?


As for your questions, there's little ruley-stuff attached to it.

Yes, that's what I said.

I think this thread is going to have to veer far away from the RAW and into speculations and house rules about how any particular DM chooses to handle it. It's relevant based on establishing just HOW immortal and impervious you want a lich to be in your game.
That fact is the origin of the thread.


It's just that the lich pops back into existence after a randomly determined number of days. I see no indication that he needs bodies, or that he returns to his own. I assume a fresh one is created for the purpose, once the phylactery has amassed the energy required.

You're saying "assume" a lot and other things about your language imply that you're trying to give a RAW answer. I don't think there is one. Much has been left open to individual creativity.


I assume any popping back into existence would occur near the phylactery, which is another reason to have certain measures and resources in place, so he can start again from there if all his base are belong to the PCs.

Seems like a reasonable take on it. If so, maybe a tactic for destroying it would be using what means one has to locate a specific creature because for a short while, the lich is forced to be near his phylactery. That might be easier than locating an obscure item.


Some of the infos in here might help you figure out ways to deal with the problem ;) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29570)

Thanx. This is the kind of thing I'm looking for though maybe a bit TL;DR. I'm curious how various folks fill in the huge gaps.

[sideswipe]

personally i would think that the lich's soul and life force are in the phylactery. now newly converted into negative energy. the body then is a shell in which the lich can manipulate as if his soul was in the body. casting and various other things. whilst being safely in his phylactery and not caring for the destruction of the shell.

if the shell is damaged he gathers negative energy from the surrounding area to rebuild a shell to manipulate again.
if he uses his own reserve he replenishes it over time.

so when you kill the lich you are not sending his soul back to the phylactery you are destroying his shell. and he was safely hundreds of miles away.

when you destroy the phylactery you destroy the case that his soul is inside. and his soul returns to his shell. weakened and unable to create another phylactery. and in this state forever until his last body is destroyed. only when his soul is within his current shell and you destroy the shell is he dead.

[Dalebert]

Some of the infos in here might help you figure out ways to deal with the problem ;) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29570)

Some of the comments about good lichs bug me. I like the idea of the occasional stereotype buster, e.g. a good lich. The idea that good creatures can't be ugly is silly though. I think it can make for some very interesting story hooks that a good creature decided they wanted to live a really long time, maybe for very noble goals rather than selfish ones, like maybe a cleric needs to guard some relic from falling into the wrong hands. And it's an interesting hook that he has decided that being a hideous emaciated corpse is a price he's willing to pay. People assuming he's evil would be a common challenge. There are plenty of works of fiction where the beast is misunderstood.

[sideswipe]

Some of the comments about good lichs bug me. I like the idea of the occasional stereotype buster, e.g. a good lich. The idea that good creatures can't be ugly is silly though. I think it can make for some very interesting story hooks that a good creature decided they wanted to live a really long time, maybe for very noble goals rather than selfish ones, like maybe a cleric needs to guard some relic from falling into the wrong hands. And it's an interesting hook that he has decided that being a hideous emaciated corpse is a price he's willing to pay. People assuming he's evil would be a common challenge. There are plenty of works of fiction where the beast is misunderstood.

I think starting with that goal would be a great story. but the problem is that they then become a being made almost completely of negative energy. I would assume that even if they decided to become a lich for good reasons that the negative energy perverts them and twists their mind. so they would still have the memories of doing it for a good cause. but they now become and evil creature of hate and suffering. this could mean that they do their intended good purpose (say to guard a holy relic like was suggested) but the manner in which they acheive that goal is extremely evil in nature. for example. raising an undead army to slaughter all nearby villages so none of them try to steal the relic. that is an extreme case but i think you get my point.

[Captnq]

Reminds me of the time I told my players ICly that a Demi-lich can come back in the gemstones you recover from his skull. So they disintegrated over 2 million in gemstones, just to be on the safe side.

[RedMage125]

On a side note, has anyone ever tried to have a PC become a lich?

I ran an Evil game once. Around 18th level, the Villainous party decided to raise an army of orcs, giants, and a HUGE amount of undead, and assault a city. When the defenders rushed to the walls, the high-level villains snuck into the city, Specifically rh Motherhouse of the paladin order. They killed the remaining priests and guards, and the party Necromancer (who had already prepared his phylactery ahead of time), completed his Lich Transformation ON the altar of the paladin order, corrupting it.

He hid his phylactery well physically. He cast Stone To Mud, sank it a few feet into the stone, and then cast Mud To Stone. He did not, however, cast Nondetection or any other means of prevention of Scrying on it.

Eventually the White Hats arrived, Good NPCs of a level to challenge the players. Good Cleric had the Sun domain and popped the lich with a single attempt. Evil Fighter was killed, and the Evil Assassins and Cleric fled for their lives. Having high ranks in Knowledge (Religion), the Good cleric knew the phylactery had to be SOMEWHERE, and they scryed its location and retrieved it.

Rather than simply destroy it, they sought to punish the lich for his transgression against the paladin order. SO they opened a portal to the Positive Energy Plane, and tossed it in.

Now the lich was a wizard, and did not have Spell Mastery, so every 1d4 days, his body would re-form, with no equipment and no spells prepared, in an environment that was EXTREMELY hostile to his body. He would be dead in a matter of a few rounds. And 1d4 days later, that cycle would begin anew...

IN my campaign world, I did my transition to 4e kind of like FR, and moved my timeline forward(although mine moved several hundred years). I also had a story explanation for the transition from Great Wheel Cosmology to 4e cosmology. Basically, all the Inner Planes were merged together into the Elemental Chaos by some Epic Magicks. And the lich? Well, after hundreds of year of being painfully destroyed every 1d4 days...suddenly finds that he has been re-formed not in a Positive Energy Plane, but the Elemental Chaos. He's no longer being constantly destroyed. But he is quite insane. I plan to use him as a Chaotic Evil lich bent on nothing less than nihilistic destruction of everything.

[Thanatosia]

Reminds me of the time I told my players ICly that a Demi-lich can come back in the gemstones you recover from his skull. So they disintegrated over 2 million in gemstones, just to be on the safe side.
Pretty sure that's a very real risk, I don't have my epic handbook at hand, but I do recall it saying that any of it's soulgems can also function as a phylactery in case the demi-lich is destroyed.

[TuggyNE]

Pretty sure that's a very real risk, I don't have my epic handbook at hand, but I do recall it saying that any of it's soulgems can also function as a phylactery in case the demi-lich is destroyed.

There's no reason to be AFB when d20srd.org is around.
Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right. […] Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.

[Dalebert]

I would assume that even if they decided to become a lich for good reasons that the negative energy perverts them and twists their mind.

I don't subscribe to the notion that negative energy is evil. Negative energy is associated with death and positive energy with life but death isn't evil. Actions and reasons for actions are the difference between good and evil. You can kill someone and it can result in something good, like an evil person who's victimizing good people. Also, both positive and negative energy planes are integral and balancing parts of the plane scape in D&D. I know that the books repeatedly associate it with evil but it seems as silly to me as assuming all undead are evil. It's so cartoonisly stereotypical and silly.

[Emperor Tippy]

I ran an Evil game once. Around 18th level, the Villainous party decided to raise an army of orcs, giants, and a HUGE amount of undead, and assault a city. When the defenders rushed to the walls, the high-level villains snuck into the city, Specifically rh Motherhouse of the paladin order. They killed the remaining priests and guards, and the party Necromancer (who had already prepared his phylactery ahead of time), completed his Lich Transformation ON the altar of the paladin order, corrupting it.

He hid his phylactery well physically. He cast Stone To Mud, sank it a few feet into the stone, and then cast Mud To Stone. He did not, however, cast Nondetection or any other means of prevention of Scrying on it.

Eventually the White Hats arrived, Good NPCs of a level to challenge the players. Good Cleric had the Sun domain and popped the lich with a single attempt. Evil Fighter was killed, and the Evil Assassins and Cleric fled for their lives. Having high ranks in Knowledge (Religion), the Good cleric knew the phylactery had to be SOMEWHERE, and they scryed its location and retrieved it.

Rather than simply destroy it, they sought to punish the lich for his transgression against the paladin order. SO they opened a portal to the Positive Energy Plane, and tossed it in.

Now the lich was a wizard, and did not have Spell Mastery, so every 1d4 days, his body would re-form, with no equipment and no spells prepared, in an environment that was EXTREMELY hostile to his body. He would be dead in a matter of a few rounds. And 1d4 days later, that cycle would begin anew...

IN my campaign world, I did my transition to 4e kind of like FR, and moved my timeline forward(although mine moved several hundred years). I also had a story explanation for the transition from Great Wheel Cosmology to 4e cosmology. Basically, all the Inner Planes were merged together into the Elemental Chaos by some Epic Magicks. And the lich? Well, after hundreds of year of being painfully destroyed every 1d4 days...suddenly finds that he has been re-formed not in a Positive Energy Plane, but the Elemental Chaos. He's no longer being constantly destroyed. But he is quite insane. I plan to use him as a Chaotic Evil lich bent on nothing less than nihilistic destruction of everything.

That should of backfired spectacularly. All the Positive Energy Plane does to undead is supercharge them as thanks to being immune to fort saves that don't effect objects they get to pick up infinite temporary HP without any risk of ever blowing up.

This is why smart Lich's conduct their transformation on the Positive Energy Plane before picking up Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble and carrying it with them.

72,000 temporary HP gained every day. Now imagine doing that for a thousand years. It's only 26.28 billion HP.

[Zanos]

I don't subscribe to the notion that negative energy is evil. Negative energy is associated with death and positive energy with life but death isn't evil. Actions and reasons for actions are the difference between good and evil. You can kill someone and it can result in something good, like an evil person who's victimizing good people. Also, both positive and negative energy planes are integral and balancing parts of the plane scape in D&D. I know that the books repeatedly associate it with evil but it seems as silly to me as assuming all undead are evil. It's so cartoonisly stereotypical and silly.
Most groups I've played with play like this. Negative Energy being lolbad paints everything a bit too black and white for my tastes.



I ran an Evil game once. Around 18th level, the Villainous party decided to raise an army of orcs, giants, and a HUGE amount of undead, and assault a city. When the defenders rushed to the walls, the high-level villains snuck into the city, Specifically rh Motherhouse of the paladin order. They killed the remaining priests and guards, and the party Necromancer (who had already prepared his phylactery ahead of time), completed his Lich Transformation ON the altar of the paladin order, corrupting it.

He hid his phylactery well physically. He cast Stone To Mud, sank it a few feet into the stone, and then cast Mud To Stone. He did not, however, cast Nondetection or any other means of prevention of Scrying on it.

Eventually the White Hats arrived, Good NPCs of a level to challenge the players. Good Cleric had the Sun domain and popped the lich with a single attempt. Evil Fighter was killed, and the Evil Assassins and Cleric fled for their lives. Having high ranks in Knowledge (Religion), the Good cleric knew the phylactery had to be SOMEWHERE, and they scryed its location and retrieved it.

Rather than simply destroy it, they sought to punish the lich for his transgression against the paladin order. SO they opened a portal to the Positive Energy Plane, and tossed it in.

Now the lich was a wizard, and did not have Spell Mastery, so every 1d4 days, his body would re-form, with no equipment and no spells prepared, in an environment that was EXTREMELY hostile to his body. He would be dead in a matter of a few rounds. And 1d4 days later, that cycle would begin anew...
...So they allowed him to revive for the sole purpose of torturing him?

So all the paladins fell, right? Condemning someone to an eternity of torture for desecrating an altar is some pretty nasty evil.


This is why smart Lich's conduct their transformation on the Positive Energy Plane before picking up Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble and carrying it with them.
How does applying a template to yourself somewhere make you a native of that plane? If I can actually do that, that would be awesome for my (soon to be) LN lich. Not sure how that's going to go down, but my DM has said he'll "work it into the story."


By the way, if you're ever a lich, you should probably set up a bunch of clones/stasis clones. People will be so busy looking for your phylactery that they won't even think to look for your clones buried in the core of the moon. Your phylactery SHOULD be essentially inaccessible to anyone/anything besides yourself, but it's nice to have some insurance.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Killing the Lich might not even be necessary. I once bound a lich in rust proof chains, locked a metal mask over his face that kept him from talking via a metal ball gag.(this was also treated to be rust proof) I then rolled him into a specially prepared casket filled with mud and turned that mud to stone.

Even if the Lich had both silent and still spell as feats he didn't have a means of escape prepared using both those feats. And bound in chains and solid stone is not the kind of restful environment in which you can prepare spells.

He wanted to live forever... I ensured he would....


That should of backfired spectacularly. All the Positive Energy Plane does to undead is supercharge them as thanks to being immune to fort saves that don't effect objects they get to pick up infinite temporary HP without any risk of ever blowing up.

This is why smart Lich's conduct their transformation on the Positive Energy Plane before picking up Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble and carrying it with them.

72,000 temporary HP gained every day. Now imagine doing that for a thousand years. It's only 26.28 billion HP.

Unless you have a DM who follows the logic "positive energy damages undead so the positive energy plane should harm them irregardless of the obvious to MISTAKES printed about the plane.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Killing the Lich might not even be necessary. I once bound a lich in rust proof chains, locked a metal mask over his face that kept him from talking via a metal ball gag.(this was also treated to be rust proof) I then rolled him into a specially prepared casket filled with mud and turned that mud to stone.

Even if the Lich had both silent and still spell as feats he didn't have a means of escape prepared using both those feats. And bound in chains and solid stone is not the kind of restful environment in which you can prepare spells.

He wanted to live forever... I ensured he would....

I clicked on the thread because I was about to suggest something quite like this. In fact, there's a lot of ways a lich could be effectively rendered dead without destroying the phylactery, they just require creative solutions.

[Invader]

I think starting with that goal would be a great story. but the problem is that they then become a being made almost completely of negative energy. I would assume that even if they decided to become a lich for good reasons that the negative energy perverts them and twists their mind. so they would still have the memories of doing it for a good cause. but they now become and evil creature of hate and suffering. this could mean that they do their intended good purpose (say to guard a holy relic like was suggested) but the manner in which they acheive that goal is extremely evil in nature. for example. raising an undead army to slaughter all nearby villages so none of them try to steal the relic. that is an extreme case but i think you get my point.

There's nothing inherently evil about negative energy and good about positive energy though.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There's nothing inherently evil about negative energy and good about positive energy though.
Correct because negative energy is death, positive energy is life that's the natural order. However using negative energy to create a mockery of life is a perversion that's whats considered evil.

[Pan151]

Eventually the White Hats arrived, Good NPCs of a level to challenge the players. Good Cleric had the Sun domain and popped the lich with a single attempt. Evil Fighter was killed, and the Evil Assassins and Cleric fled for their lives. Having high ranks in Knowledge (Religion), the Good cleric knew the phylactery had to be SOMEWHERE, and they scryed its location and retrieved it.

Rather than simply destroy it, they sought to punish the lich for his transgression against the paladin order. SO they opened a portal to the Positive Energy Plane, and tossed it in.

Now the lich was a wizard, and did not have Spell Mastery, so every 1d4 days, his body would re-form, with no equipment and no spells prepared, in an environment that was EXTREMELY hostile to his body. He would be dead in a matter of a few rounds. And 1d4 days later, that cycle would begin anew...

Hmm... that seems like an awfully evil thing for these supposedly Good NPCs to do...

Edit. If it actually worked that way, that is.


Correct because negative energy is death, positive energy is life that's the natural order. However using negative energy to create a mockery of life is a perversion that's whats considered evil.

By that reasoning, using positive energy to create Deathless is no less a pervertion.

[Lord Vukodlak]

By that reasoning, using positive energy to create Deathless is no less a pervertion.

No that reasoning doesn't follow because your using positive energy to create life which is what the stuff does normally.

That aside Ive felt Deathless are just a rather stupid concept with the possible exception of using them for ghosts or Obi-Wan like spirits who appear to dispense advice.

[Pan151]

No that reasoning doesn't follow because your using positive energy to create life which is what the stuff does normally.

Positive energy does not create life. Lifeforce does (lifeforce is desirable for the living and the undead alike) Positive energy simply substitutes lacking lifeforce for the living, just like negative energy substitutes lifeforce for the undead. They are both just energy sources to be manipulated for a desirable effect.

[137beth]

That should of backfired spectacularly. All the Positive Energy Plane does to undead is supercharge them as thanks to being immune to fort saves that don't effect objects they get to pick up infinite temporary HP without any risk of ever blowing up.

This is why smart Lich's conduct their transformation on the Positive Energy Plane before picking up Permanent Emanation: Planar Bubble and carrying it with them.

72,000 temporary HP gained every day. Now imagine doing that for a thousand years. It's only 26.28 billion HP.

So, the only way to beat a lich is to force it out of its planar bubble and stop it from planeshifting back to the positive energy plane for 1d20 rounds?
Or is there some trick to stop the temporary hit-points from fading, ever?

[Lord Vukodlak]

So, the only way to beat a lich is to force it out of its planar bubble and stop it from planeshifting back to the positive energy plane for 1d20 rounds?
Or is there some trick to stop the temporary hit-points from fading, ever?

Or have a DM who realizes that the positive energy plane healing undead is clearly a mistake and has it damage them like its supposed to.

[Zanos]

Killing the Lich might not even be necessary. I once bound a lich in rust proof chains, locked a metal mask over his face that kept him from talking via a metal ball gag.(this was also treated to be rust proof) I then rolled him into a specially prepared casket filled with mud and turned that mud to stone.

Even if the Lich had both silent and still spell as feats he didn't have a means of escape prepared using both those feats. And bound in chains and solid stone is not the kind of restful environment in which you can prepare spells.
Is a ball gag even effective against undead? They don't have vocal cords in the first place, so assuming they need to move their mouths to speak is a bit of a jump. I'm also pretty sure a creature incapable of feeling pain or discomfort could obtain 8 hours of restful calm in a completely silent area. He's more screwed by his lack of a spellbook.

To be fair though, he's a pretty stupid lich for getting himself into that situation in the first place.

[Bigbeefie]

My favorite way to kill a Lich is Sending him to the plane of Positive energy and let them deal with his destruction.

Another fun one is having the fighter grapple him down, Bound, gag, steal his spell book, and then Imprison him deep in the earth in a stasis. Your not killing him but your making it nigh impossible for him to get free.

3rd way to deal with him is to trap him permanently in a portable hole that you send to space, another plane, or something of the sort. (assuming he can't plane shift yet.)

There are many ways to remove him from being any kind of problem without straight out killing him yourself and hunting down his Phylactery.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Is a ball gag even effective against undead? They don't have vocal cords in the first place, so assuming they need to move their mouths to speak is a bit of a jump.
The sound still comes from the area of the mouth even if he doesn't need vocal cords to make sounds anymore. If he wasn't a skeleton it would have broken his jaw. Whether or not the gag actually worked or not was moot as once he was dropped into the pit, the mud would have filled every empty space and once it was turned to stone there would be no air and thus any verbal components would be impossible.


I'm also pretty sure a creature incapable of feeling pain or discomfort could obtain 8 hours of restful calm in a completely silent area. He's more screwed by his lack of a spellbook. I was fairly certain the wizard had spell mastery so I had to cover by bases. The issue wasn't resting the issue is preparing arcane spells requires the right environment, The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions.. Being completely in cased in stone and unable to move is a distraction even if your only a skeleton.


To be fair though, he's a pretty stupid lich for getting himself into that situation in the first place.
You can say that about every villain who faces player characters. Unbeatable NPC's only work in theory because a DM sending one against the PC's will very quickly find himself no longer DMing them.

[Saidoro]

Correct because negative energy is death, positive energy is life that's the natural order. However using negative energy to create a mockery of life is a perversion that's whats considered evil.
Two standard questions:
1: Assuming such a thing as the natural order exists, what makes you believe that necromancy goes against it?
2: Assuming that necromancy goes against the natural order, what makes you believe that that is a bad thing?

[Zanos]

Being completely in cased in stone and unable to move is a distraction even if your only a skeleton.
Not really. Something would have to remove his attention from the act of preparing spells, and if you can't feel the discomfort, you really don't have anything else to do.

A person in a straitjacket+hood isn't "distracted." The only thing they CAN do is think. I'll give you the other points, though.


You can say that about every villain who faces player characters. Unbeatable NPC's only work in theory because a DM sending one against the PC's will very quickly find himself no longer DMing them.
True, but I always felt like liches were the classical "smart guy" villains. You've got maurding bandit lords and tyrant kings, sure. But a lich? Even the MM says a lich's greatest weapon is their time to think and plot.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Killing the Lich might not even be necessary. I once bound a lich in rust proof chains, locked a metal mask over his face that kept him from talking via a metal ball gag.(this was also treated to be rust proof) I then rolled him into a specially prepared casket filled with mud and turned that mud to stone.

Even if the Lich had both silent and still spell as feats he didn't have a means of escape prepared using both those feats. And bound in chains and solid stone is not the kind of restful environment in which you can prepare spells.

What kind of semi-intelligent (or more intelligent) caster doesn't have a silent teleportation subschool spell prepared.

There is a reason i ignore people who say sorcerers shouldn't have teleport on their actual list. This a common escape tactic of mine, that i have never had to resort to for some reason.

[Lord Vukodlak]

What kind of semi-intelligent (or more intelligent) caster doesn't have a silent teleportation subschool spell prepared He did but he'd been hit with a dimensional anchor early in the fight and the casket had been warded against teleportation.


Two standard questions:
1: Assuming such a thing as the natural order exists, what makes you believe that necromancy goes against it?
2: Assuming that necromancy goes against the natural order, what makes you believe that that is a bad thing? I never said that necromancy goes against the natural order I said undead creation did. Undead creation spells are marked as evil that's what makes me think that using negative energy to create a mockery of life is evil.


True, but I always felt like liches were the classical "smart guy" villains. You've got maurding bandit lords and tyrant kings, sure. But a lich? Even the MM says a lich's greatest weapon is their time to think and plot.
His methods focused around retrieving his property should anything happen to him. He just presumed his foes would simply destroy his physical body rather then When your an immortal Lich who can't be destroyed unless someone finds your phylactery you might stop worrying about other details like escaping if you really need to escape you can let the enemy kill you and steal back your gear later.
Physically destroying him would have been far easier then the efforts we undertook to subdue him.

[Ridureyu]

Killing the Lich might not even be necessary. I once bound a lich in rust proof chains, locked a metal mask over his face that kept him from talking via a metal ball gag.(this was also treated to be rust proof) I then rolled him into a specially prepared casket filled with mud and turned that mud to stone.

Even if the Lich had both silent and still spell as feats he didn't have a means of escape prepared using both those feats. And bound in chains and solid stone is not the kind of restful environment in which you can prepare spells.

He wanted to live forever... I ensured he would....



Unless you have a DM who follows the logic "positive energy damages undead so the positive energy plane should harm them irregardless of the obvious to MISTAKES printed about the plane.



So you put a ball gag and gimp mask on him and tied him up in the basement?


Woah.

[NeoPhoenix0]

He did but he'd been hit with a dimensional anchor early in the fight and the casket had been warded against teleportation.

That definitely narrows down the options. I don't think i would have something ready to escape that as a prepared caster, and as a spontaneous caster I have no idea because i theme my lists in weird ways.