Pathfinder: replacing DR with HP?

[Ezberron]

Heya all,

I have a game where 1/2 the table can do pretty good burst damage while the other side relies on multiple lighter attacks. The second group generally gets locked out cold versus anything with DR.

One of the players suggested removing DR and adding in extra HP so that everyone can actually do damage. I'm okay with the idea as it lets everyone contribute to the fight but I'm fuzzy on what the conversion would be.

I figure if a monster has DR 5 and takes 5 hits to kill, that taking out the DR 5 and adding 25 hp would be functionally identical. the trick is figuring out the "hits to kill" value. Thoughts? Suggestions? Anyone else done this sort of thing?

Thanks!

[Spore]

Additional HP is no defensive ability. I would just give all TWF users the free talent to add up all their weapon damage per round and then calculate the DR.

"Hammer the Gap" is for melee and "Clustered Shots" for ranged. Just make those feats easily accessible or make them default additions to every character. I would stick their effects onto Precise Shot and Two Weapon Fighting.

[RolkFlameraven]

may I ask just how they can't overcome DR 5? About the only way I now of for that to happen is to have a low STR and be using a dagger or some other D4 or lower weapon. They might not be doing more then a HP or two with out magic but...

They also might want to remember that in PF grater magical weapon will over come nearly all DR sooner or later as the +'s let you overcome DR vs cold iron and silver at +3, adamantine at +4 and even alignment (if your cleric doesn't take care of this with a spell) at +5.

So long as they have a dagger and a club they should be able to cover come all DR save DR/- or epic. If not flanking and aid another are all good options and part of the point of DR. Just adding HP and taking the DR off will not really help at all as if the thing dies in 5 rounds WITH half the party not doing anything even with 25 more hp you will be lucky if it lasts two rounds once that DR is gone.

[Eldaran]

remember that in PF grater magical weapon will over come nearly all DR sooner or later as the +'s let you overcome DR vs cold iron and silver at +3, adamantine at +4 and even alignment (if your cleric doesn't take care of this with a spell) at +5.

Not true (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/magic-weapon): "This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic."

[SamsDisciple]

As a group you need to be prepared for multiple scenarios, the people who can hit lots of times but for relatively low damage are great against lots of little guys but suck when it comes to DR while the guy who only swings once or twice but for huge damage can murder one thing DR or not but can die easily from mobs because he can't kill them fast enough. My suggestion is to modify encounters so that there is something for everyone to feel like they shined, planning on fighting the BBEG with DR 10? Throw in a mob of low level slaves that are forced to fight, each one individually wont do much but as a mob they can still crit and dish out damage to the unwary and the TWF character feels like they shined because they took out 30 monsters in one battle! while the burst damage guy with one or two swings overcomes the DR and only kills one monster but it was one hard core freaking monster so he shines as well. If you don't want to take the time to modify things the feats mentioned earlier would be good, maybe a plot hook item temporarily grants that feat to the characters. Another idea that I toyed around with is that each successive attack in a round chips away at the DR so that it is resisting less as time goes on but that could be a very dangerous change because then because you wanted the TWF character to have an easier time your tank who loves his DR suddenly is dying alot faster because of getting attacked 20 times a round.

[aleucard]

You could take Borderlands 2's idea for something called 'slag damage'. Basically, it inflicts a status effect on anything hit by it that boosts non-slag damage done to the target. Give the heavy hitter one of these, and problem should be solved AND make for interesting tactics! Just make it so that spell damage isn't improved, casters already do massive damage.

[grarrrg]

Instead of normal DR, why not a "per round" type of DR? Then just double (or triple) the base DR and go from there.

Instead of ignoring 5 points _per attack_, make it so that it ignores the first 10 points _per round_.
Basically, it'd be Temp HP that refills automatically every round.

[Slipperychicken]

Or they could just take like 5 seconds of preparation and learn how to beat DR?

You could also try converting DR to AC and see how that works out.

[Seerow]

Instead of normal DR, why not a "per round" type of DR? Then just double (or triple) the base DR and go from there.

Instead of ignoring 5 points _per attack_, make it so that it ignores the first 10 points _per round_.
Basically, it'd be Temp HP that refills automatically every round.

This is the way I handle it.

I also tend to combine with Armor as DR, and have the temp HP scale based on BAB (for players) or CR (for monsters).



If you don't want to go through all the trouble for that kind of conversion though, I'd just straight up double all DR values, and make it refresh against every person attacking.

Example: You have enemy with DR15/-. This gets converted to 30 resistance.

Now when the two weapon fighting rogue attacks, the first 30 points gets blocked.
When the two handed fighter attacks, the first 30 of his damage gets blocked as well.
When the Wizard casts a blasty spell, the first 30 points of his damage gets blocked as well.


As opposed to the other method which would result in such a monster having a much higher value, that every contributes to removing and refreshes when the monster gets a new turn.
So monster has 120 guard. Two weapon fighting rogue attacks 4 times, hits 3, deals a bit over 90 damage. Monster has 30 resistance remaining.
Two handed fighter charges, dealing 100 points of damage. Monster loses his remaining 30 points of resistance, and takes 70 actual hp damage.
Wizard's spell now deals damage directly to HP without worrying about the resistance.

[Ezberron]

Thanks for the suggestions. The players took feats to help with their damage issues. the dual-wielding bard took arcane strike while the cleric/rogue took consecrated sneak attack. A lot of the baddies are either undead or demonic so that should help them crack the shell.

I'm going to give the bard hammer the gap as a freebie feat. I think it will help, considering she gets 3 attacks a round with a full attack.

[Spore]

Or they could just take like 5 seconds of preparation and learn how to beat DR?

It's just sad that not all classes have their OWN way of overcoming such a vital defensive ability of monsters. I can accept a Fire themed Wizard to switch to Cold spells against a Fire Elemental, but there are some things a TWF finesse build simply cannot do.

If your Str 12 Dex 18 Finesse Rogue has TWF with daggers, there is no chance that you'd overcome DR in a meaningful way even if he dual wields a Great Club. You're simply stuck. So please cut your sass. Not every group has someone with Weapon Alignment or a dagger made from Mithril, made from Cold Iron and Adamantine for every situation possible.

And believe me, I have tried that. My rogue has a mithril sword, a cold iron sword and an adamantine mwk dagger and then he faces a Hamatula (group consisting of Paladin, Barbarian and Sorcerer). After DR 10/Good, I almost did the same damage to me as I did to the barbed devil WITH sneak attacks. The fact that lacking ranged feats AND -4 on bow attacks (imposed from DM for trying and failing to steal a good bow for once) would've amounted into into exactly +0 ranged attacks (on AC 26, only crits would've hit).

He was decent against smaller enemies but there the constant movement hampers my ability for full round attacks even more. And yes, I realize now how a low Str TWF build is both not very believable and foolish in optimization. Lacking the Agile Weapon Enchantment/Dervish Dance feat in my campagins is another problem.

[Slipperychicken]

If your Str 12 Dex 18 Finesse Rogue has TWF with daggers, there is no chance that you'd overcome DR in a meaningful way even if he dual wields a Great Club. You're simply stuck. So please cut your sass. Not every group has someone with Weapon Alignment or a dagger made from Mithril, made from Cold Iron and Adamantine for every situation possible.

My bad. I remembered some bit about enhancement bonus counting as other stuff to overcome DR, but it turns out it takes +5 to overcome alignment, which a GMW casting would only achieve at CL 20.

[grarrrg]

My bad. I remembered some bit about enhancement bonus counting as other stuff to overcome DR, but it turns out it takes +5 to overcome alignment, which a GMW casting would only achieve at CL 20.

Except for the line in Greater Magic Weapon that says "This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic."
Which has already been pointed out in this very thread.

[Yomega]

Except for the line in Greater Magic Weapon that says "This bonus does not allow a weapon to bypass damage reduction aside from magic."
Which has already been pointed out in this very thread.



I saw this mentioned a couple times and when people are talking about having caster lvl 20 every meelee typ character should have a +5 enhancement bonus on at least one weapon of the liking specifacaly to bypass: magic,cold iron,silver,adamite,and alinment the spell magic weapon and greater magic weapon only bypass magic but a +5 enhancement bonus on the weapon itself bypasses almost everything

[Seerow]

I saw this mentioned a couple times and when people are talking about having caster lvl 20 every meelee typ character should have a +5 enhancement bonus on at least one weapon of the liking specifacaly to bypass: magic,cold iron,silver,adamite,and alinment the spell magic weapon and greater magic weapon only bypass magic but a +5 enhancement bonus on the weapon itself bypasses almost everything

A +5 weapon bypasses no more than a +1 weapon, and has not for roughly a decade, since 3.5 hit shelves.

[Eldaran]

A +5 weapon bypasses no more than a +1 weapon, and has not for roughly a decade, since 3.5 hit shelves.

Except that it does in Pathfinder. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Overcoming-DR) So much misinformation in this thread.

[Yomega]

Except that it does in Pathfinder. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Overcoming-DR) So much misinformation in this thread.



IKR!!!!! Its all good tho its not as well known in pathfinder as like the combat manuver system is