Power: How do Team Fathers compare to Team Scribble? [Archive]

konradknox

2014-01-11, 04:57 PM

Benthesquid

2014-01-11, 05:02 PM

Er... you're including two groups that are definitely opposed to each other, and two individuals who have never been seen interacting with either of the above two groups, or each other, all together in one team. That seems like an odd decision.

Trillium

2014-01-11, 05:10 PM

We now virtually nothing about Aarindarius, except for the fact that he maybe could defeat Mother Black Dragon single-handedly. Which is no fact. He may very well be capable of obliterating Xykon with his mere thought, or be a level 12 mage.

Neither Eugene nor Ian never have been shown to very powerful either. I think Vaarsuvius is more powerful than Eugene right now.

Copperdragon

2014-01-11, 05:37 PM

Aarindarius: There is no evidence at all for his level, all we know is that he was a master to a "level 1 or more" character. So he could be as low as level 5. Or he could be level 50. We simply do not know (and I doubt it matters at all for the story).

Mike Havran

2014-01-11, 05:57 PM

ChristianSt

2014-01-11, 07:21 PM

Team Evil is certainly less powerful than the Order of the Scribble.

The only reason why Xykon defeated some of them, because he picked them one by one. Against multiple Scribblers he should have no chance.

Your "Team Father" doesn't include any Epic character* so it should have a pretty hard time against any of them (adding on top of that is is simply no Team. The only one who I can imagine working together are Eugene + Aarindarius - which ironically even isn't a father).

*While it is possibly that any (or all, though Eugene and Ian would be unlikely) of them are Epic, we don't have any proof of that, and I don't think that any of them is actually Epic.

Jaxzan Proditor

2014-01-11, 07:30 PM

I think it's difficult to compare "Team Fathers" to Team Scribble because Team Fathers doesn't actually exist. Team Fathers involves people who are either a) a team of their own, b) hated enemies, or c) unaware of the other's existence. It is extremely unlikely that they would ever all join forces.

With Team Tarquin vs. The Order of the Scribble, I think Scribble would win because they are all epic and we don't know what level Team Tarquin is (although it seems they are higher than the Order, and Tarquin is probably epic).

DeliaP

2014-01-11, 10:55 PM

At this point, it's far from obvious to me that members of Team Parent-figure are greater than OotS. Both Ian and Eugene may well now be outclassed by OotS.

Ancient Black Dragon waited until V was alone until making her move, so maybe OotS, as a unified whole, could have given her a run for her money? It seems implied that V, Elan and Durkon are the highest level characters on Hinjo's fleet.

OTOH, if ABD outclasses OotS, how do we know she doesn't also outclass Team Tarquin? All we know is that V believes Aarandarius could defeat ABD.

konradknox

2014-01-12, 12:14 AM

Okay, great start.
A few notions I must make which I thought were obvious, but I guess not so much by the way I stated it.

1. When I say "team" I don't mean necessarily that they work together or know each other in the comic, but rather as a layer, like fantasy football team. Like, we have a "generation" of mentor figures, the OOTS's Background figures. Eugene and Horace for Roy, Aarindarius for Vaarsuvius, High Priest of Thor for Durkon, Ian for Haley, Tarquin for Elan. That's what I mean by "Team Father". Tarquin's actual team is in this layer, due to being contemporaries of the same generation.

2. I assume that Team Scribble is an older generation than Team Fathers (I believe), considering that 2-3 years ago from current time, Dorukan was an old man with a long beard, where as Tarquin still looks decent. But, just because Scribblers were an older generation who were in their prime a decade earlier, it does not mean they are automatically more powerful. Lirian, Dorukan, and Soon are all dead, so at their peak of career, they could have been as powerful as a member of Team Fathers would be now.

3. The only person who keeps accumulating power with age consistently due to being immortal is Xykon, who is yet an older generation than even the Scribble (again, an assumption based on art, where Lirian looks rather young while Xykon-human was a wrinkled up 70+ year old). The Scribble have all bit the dust and are confirmed and accounted for, except Kraagor and Serini. So their progression have stopped. Xykon as he is now is probably more powerful than any Scribbler ever was. I mean, he overcame Darth V, mainly due to being shrewd and on home turf, but I think even without Redcloak's help, Xykon could have drained the soul splice levels, eventually owning Darth V anyway. So based on that I'm placing Xykon as the top of the ladder power figure.

4. This layering does not include MiTD, who is obviously god.

oonker

2014-01-12, 12:26 AM

I think "Team Fathers" and "Team Tarquin" are two distinct groups.

Team Tarquin has its own 6 players, at least. Do not forget Shoulder Pads Guy and Jacinda!

Copperdragon

2014-01-12, 03:35 AM

Mama Dragon demonstrated level 7 Arcane spell powers (and she is a dragon). Vaarsuvius isn't stupid, so in order for her fantasy about A stopping ABD to be at least plausible, A needs to be powerful enough to defeat level 13 dragon sorcerer.

We have no idea. Varsuvius is not stupid but we do not know how he sees his masters. You are not argue with me about level ranges but about "We do not know. Therefore, we cannot make any judgement of the level. It could be anything, from 5 to 50, where something in the middle is most probable. If it is level 10 or 20... who knows? We do not!"
As for "Vaarsuvius must be able to believe it" a level 10 or 15 master is ridiculously powerful from the eyes of an apprentice. So even if Vaarsuvius *thinks* of his master as incredibly powerful it does not have to be "near epic".

Note again I do not argue for a specific level range, your point could be very valid. But we do not know and the assumptions we can make are standing ony very sandy ground.

Morquard

2014-01-12, 05:56 AM

As for "Vaarsuvius must be able to believe it" a level 10 or 15 master is ridiculously powerful from the eyes of an apprentice. So even if Vaarsuvius *thinks* of his master as incredibly powerful it does not have to be "near epic".
That is absolutely true. And there are a few more things to consider that make V not the most reliable source of information in that situation:
a) He was extremely sleep/trance deprived
b) He was in extreme panic about the fate of his family.

It's also possible that his explanation of why that plan wouldn't work (A would never listen to an imp and kill him on sight) is actually an excuse V makes to himself.

Something like this might have happened inside V's head.

V's Ego: "I have to contact my master. He's so much more powerful than me, and Arcane Magic is the Ultimate Power, so he must be able to!"
V's Logic: "Don't be silly, I've surpassed A in levels long ago, he'd get crushed"
V's Ego: "NO! Arcane Ultimate Power! But he would never work with an imp and would disintigrate Qarr the moment he shows up, so he would never even know to bring his Arcane Might to the Black Dragon."
V's Logic: "Ah no, he would totally work with an imp if it... err, you know what, you're right. Bad idea"
V's Ego: "That's what I said. Bad idea."
V's Logic goes into a corner and starts crying.

About Eugene's and Ian's power we know literally nothing. When the OotS formed they were like level 6 or 7 or so, and by the time they last interacted with their fathers they were most likely a few levels lower. Not to mention the whole childhood.
They're 16ish now.
What seems like a pushover encounter these days, that's hardly worth their time would seem like incredibly powerful to a child/low level.

So in their heads they're fathers might be "a great thief" or a "skilled illusionist" or something, but if they'd face them today it would be "Huh? When did he become so clumsy?"

oppyu

2014-01-12, 06:24 AM

Huh, I hadn't noticed the Team Fathers thing before.

Roy Greenhilt
Father - near-epic wizard illusionist of some renown
Mother - no discernible class levels or profession

Elan
Father - near-epic melee fighter, warlord
Mother - no discernible class levels, waitress

Haley Starshine
Father - rogue, probably high level, former high-ranking member of the Thieves Guild
Mother - probably low-level (died from a single arrow, didn't look poisoned), no discernible profession

ChristianSt

2014-01-12, 06:28 AM

3. The only person who keeps accumulating power with age consistently due to being immortal is Xykon, who is yet an older generation than even the Scribble (again, an assumption based on art, where Lirian looks rather young while Xykon-human was a wrinkled up 70+ year old). The Scribble have all bit the dust and are confirmed and accounted for, except Kraagor and Serini. So their progression have stopped. Xykon as he is now is probably more powerful than any Scribbler ever was. I mean, he overcame Darth V, mainly due to being shrewd and on home turf, but I think even without Redcloak's help, Xykon could have drained the soul splice levels, eventually owning Darth V anyway. So based on that I'm placing Xykon as the top of the ladder power figure.

Do you want to rank groups or do you want to rank individuals? If you want to rank group (which the OP implies to me) than it is imo obvious that the Order of the Scribble is on the top of the food chain. One reason they lost to Xykon is that they separated themselves. Probably even any combination of 2 (or maybe 3) Scribblers shouldn't have problems against Xykon [If you add Redcloak, I think it might take 1 Scribbler more. MitD might require another one, but MitD is pretty much a wild card anyway, he might even simple do nothing].

The only groups shown in comic which might be more powerful than the collected Scribblers are Gods or possible the IFCC. But both are hard to judge and have limitation to what they can do.

If you want to compare individual power than I think Xykon is there at the top [only other being I would rank over him (other than maybe some Gods) is Darth Vaarsuvius, but he/she lost because of massively misapplying his/her arcane power - a normal thinking V with that power would win imo].

And to the power level of fathers/mentors: The only one we can judge are those who actually act in the comic. That leaves currently only Tarquin and Julio [we might see something of Ian to judge him soon - but currently we know pretty much only that he couldn't brake out of Tarquin's prison - which imo implies he isn't that high level, I would put him certainly beneath Haley]. Persons who haven't been shown in years/decades can be misjudged pretty easily. As others pointed out Aarindarius might be as low as level 5. Judging from an apprentice (so max lvl 1 or 2) point of view that is absurdly overpowered. And with remembering "My master is so much more powerful than me", it is valid to assume he might handle the ABD with ease.

Copperdragon

2014-01-12, 07:55 AM

Roy Greenhilt
Father - near-epic wizard illusionist of some renown
Mother - no discernible class levels or profession

We have proof for level 11+. That is not "near epic". Also note that everything beyond level 10 is "pretty powerful", so Eugene could very well have made "Top Illusionist" a few times in a row with level 12 to 15. That is very powerful, but not "near epic" or "epic" as people put him.

Haley Starshine
Father - rogue, probably high level, former high-ranking member of the Thieves Guild
Yes, it is likely. If Bozzok is level 18 it is unlikely his predecessor was much lower. I do not see Ian in the same range (Bozzok killed a lot of people to get his rapid XP) but Ian is very probably 10+.

Mother - probably low-level (died from a single arrow, didn't look poisoned), no discernible profession

We have no idea.

As for all level discussions I have the impression many people vastly underestimate what a level 5, 10, 15 etc in D&D represents. Everyone who is shown to have some power over someone else or who is just "older than someone" or a "master of something" is pegged by the forum as "EPIC!" or at least "Near Epic" or "High Level".
To put things in perspective: Most storytelling can put their completely powerful heroes in the range of the levels 5 to 10. In the demography of D&D, everything beyond level 5 is a lot more powerful than anyone else (in a world where most people do not even have class levels and even commoner-levels beyond 1 or 3 are getting rare). Level 10 is far beyond everything a real human can achive and even beyond what most Heroes in other stories/movies etc achive.
Level 15+ is outright ridiculous when it comes to power and characters of that level become very rare.

I guess that PCs and the main characters in the story mostly come in contact with the powerful characters shift the perception of how rare or powerful high level characters are. They meet the level 10 army leaders, the level 15 arch wizards etc, but that the Hobbits meet Galadriel does not mean every elven woman is epic as her.

D&D:
Level 5: You are really, really good.
Level 10: You are exceptional, you can be an army leader for a high king.
Level 15: You are among the most powerful characters in the world. You can be an Arch Wizard or a King of Legend.
Level 20: You are among the most powerful creatures of your generation and those around you. You are so ridiculously powerful that most settings in fiction do not even have a in-universe representation of your power anymore.
Epic: Here it even starts to get silly, but if you have High Level Heroes, they still need a completely out of bounds threat. This is where we are now.

oonker

2014-01-12, 08:06 AM

That is absolutely true. And there are a few more things to consider that make V not the most reliable source of information in that situation:

Not only V pointed out that the plan to involve Aarindarius would work. The IFCC suggested it as well. People tend to forget this little detail, but they came up with a plan to defeat the Ancient Black Dragon without Darth V.

And IMHO, in-comic representation depicts the IFCC as a reliable source of information.

Kish

2014-01-12, 08:18 AM

Not only V pointed out that the plan to involve Aarindarius would work. The IFCC suggested it as well. People tend to forget this little detail, but they came up with a plan to defeat the Ancient Black Dragon without Darth V.

And IMHO, in-comic representation depicts the IFCC as a reliable source of information.
...Seriously?

So Durkon was at the fleet when the comic establishes he'd left the fleet days ago? 'Cause their plan (the plan Qarr explicitly called ridiculous) kind of falls apart if Qarr brings Vaarsuvius' severed head to the fleet and looks for a dwarf who isn't there. Your humble opinion can be that fire is cold, but that won't stop you from getting burned.

The resistance some people have to accepting that the most explicitly dishonest sources--including literal archfiends from the very bottom of the pit!--could possibly be being dishonest has always baffled me.

Copperdragon

2014-01-12, 08:23 AM

And IMHO, in-comic representation depicts the IFCC as a reliable source of information.

You think that the combination of the three Hells of D&D represents "reliable information in general"? Cool...

On a totally unrelated note: Did you know I have the Golden Gate Bride to sell? I give it to you for just 1000$ and you can make millions from tolling the passing vehicles. Just meet my business associate in a Dark Alley, he's totally not going to rob you! :smallwink:

oppyu

2014-01-12, 08:36 AM

You think that the combination of the three Hells of D&D represents "reliable information in general"? Cool...

On a totally unrelated note: Did you know I have the Golden Gate Bride to sell? I give it to you for just 1000$ and you can make millions from tolling the passing vehicles. Just meet my business associate in a Dark Alley, he's totally not going to rob you! :smallwink:
Bride?! You monster!

Copperdragon

2014-01-12, 09:30 AM

Whatever, if he thinks Arch-Fiends of any sort are a reliable source of information he'll buy whatever (or whoever) it is anyway. :smalltongue:

137beth

2014-01-12, 10:29 AM

zimmerwald1915

2014-01-12, 10:30 AM

Only $1000:smallconfused:
Surely if you are attempting to con someone who would believe anything you would start a bit higher?
Only if the point of the con is to make money and not to laugh at the mark.

Copperdragon

2014-01-12, 10:34 AM

Only $1000:smallconfused:
Surely if you are attempting to con someone who would believe anything you would start a bit higher?

Ok, I try again (but for the last time and then I drop this topic, as this is totally OT): I'll sell you the entirety of the United States of America for only ONE BILLION DOLLARS!
Better? :smalltongue:

oonker

2014-01-12, 12:08 PM

...Seriously?

So Durkon was at the fleet when the comic establishes he'd left the fleet days ago? 'Cause their plan (the plan Qarr explicitly called ridiculous) kind of falls apart if Qarr brings Vaarsuvius' severed head to the fleet and looks for a dwarf who isn't there. Your humble opinion can be that fire is cold, but that won't stop you from getting burned.

The resistance some people have to accepting that the most explicitly dishonest sources--including literal archfiends from the very bottom of the pit!--could possibly be being dishonest has always baffled me.

Please, instead of baffling yourself, help me remember when it is established that Durkon's left the fleet. I honestly do not remember.

What Qarr explicitly called ridiculous was the fact that they came up with this plan on the fly. What he says is "the elf may have been too exhausted to notice this, but I'm not.", suggesting that they (IFCC) have been observing V for sometime.

The Archifiends were explicitly evil, but aside from one particular moment, when they admit that they have lied (in regards to the alignment change), I don't recall any other moment in which it is put that they are dishonest. One (or three, as the case may be) can be immensely evil without being dishonest.

Kish

2014-01-12, 12:12 PM

Please, instead of baffling yourself, help me remember when it is established that Durkon's left the fleet. I honestly do not remember.

As soon as Vaarsuvius arrives at it. Remember? Kazumi and Daigo tell her/him that Durkon left the fleet days ago?

What Qarr explicitly called ridiculous

--was the alternate plan. "That ridiculous alternate plan." It's not a vague statement and the adjective "ridiculous" is not free-floating around in Qarr's speech bubble to be attached to any noun a reader wants to attach it to.

And even if there wasn't overwhelming evidence that the plan would not have worked--which, as it happens, there is--your evidence that it would have is nonexistent; you're speaking as though "the archfiends speak with Word of the Author unless proven otherwise" is some kind of default setting.

oonker

2014-01-12, 12:20 PM

As soon as Vaarsuvius arrives at it. Remember? Kazumi and Daigo tell her/him that Durkon left the fleet days ago?

--was the alternate plan. "That ridiculous alternate plan." It's not a vague statement and the adjective "ridiculous" is not free-floating around in Qarr's speech bubble to be attached to any noun a reader wants to attach it to.

And even if there wasn't overwhelming evidence that the plan would not have worked--which, as it happens, there is--your evidence that it would have is nonexistent; you're speaking as though "the archfiends speak with Word of the Author unless proven otherwise" is some kind of default setting.

What I'm saying is: there were not that many evidences that IFCC were liars (although being pure evil). Evil can be honest, good can be dishonest. I'm working under this premise.

But, the rest of your post has convinced me. You're right, I did misread that part of the comic. It happens :)

Amphiox

2014-01-12, 02:16 PM

Seeing as how Soon was beating Xykon (and Redcloak) supported by a force of several hundred mid-level paladin ghosts, Soon plus 4 epic teammates would have ground Team Evil into a fine, fine powder.

Vinyadan

2014-01-12, 03:08 PM

My personal understanding of group power is this:
In order from weak to strong.

1. Original Linear Guild (no fathers)
2. Order of the Stick
3. Ancient Black Dragon
4. Team Fathers (Tarquin group, Ian, Eugene, Aarindarius)
5. Team Scribble (known to be epic)
6. Team Evil (only Xykon is epic, but he was seen to have defeated 2 scribblers, though he was gonna lose to Soon, but it doesn't count because it was a trap)

So my question is, do i have 4 and 5 right?
If Tarquin's group met with Scribbles in a 6v6 combat, who would roll whose face?

And the following 1 on 1 are to be consdered:

Ian Starshine vs Serini Toormuck
Eugene Greenhilt vs Girard Draketooth
Aarindarius/Miron vs Dorukan
Tarquin vs Kraagor
Laurin vs Lirian
Malack vs Soon

The original LG is very probably the weakest group. They were defeated every time we saw them fighting against adventurers.

But I am not sure the ABD could have destroyed the whole OotS. She still didn't attack when there were a Durkon, Elan, Vaarsuvius, two paladins and a ninja around. What if she had had to fight against all 5 + animals, especially at their current power level? Even back then I think she would have been defeated, right now I am pretty sure. And, after all, she also relied on something very similar to a trap.

Team Fathers is something very strange. I think they would murder each other in a couple of minutes. Besides, Eugene already is dead. I think the full TT would have squashed the Order, especially if they managed to have the Empress helping them.

About Aarindarius: it is possible that he was an insanely powerful wizard, but it's also possible that he is a low to middle leveled wizard who V knows had some very apt spell at his disposal, like shivering touch. After all, a wizard's power doesn't only depend on level.

A group made up non-evil fathers + known mentors (Ian, Eugene, Aarindarius, Grandad Greenhilt, Julio) would likely be pretty strong, but I doubt it would reach TT. Besides, I see problems in working together, and the lack of a cleric.

Team Scribble is probably the strongest one. The question is if Xykon right now hasn't grown so absurdly powerful, that he could take on them. There also is the preparation problem: Xykon and Redcloak could just go around murdering things for a long time, turning the strongest into undead, and then pour them all on their opponents. And, finally, there is the unknown quantity of the MitD, as well as the difficulty in telling if a living Soon would have been so resistant to Xykon's spells.

So, my rating from weakest to strongest:

1. Linear Guild
2. Ancient Black Dragon - Team Famentors
3. OotS
4. Team Tarquin
5. Scribblers - Team Evil

Amphiox

2014-01-12, 04:22 PM

The ABD may only have been slightly more powerful than normal V by herself. Remember that V had not tranced in days, had not prepared spells thinking he would have to fight a dragon that day, and had already used up several high level spell slots, including wasting a couple of disintegrates shooting at Quarr.

As for A, it strains suspension of disbelief to posit that V's judgement could have been off by more than an order of magnitude. At the end of the day, V is a high INT learned wizard, with arcane power being her area of expertise. When one gets to that level, basic judgements as crude as the chances of winning a fight with a dragon become second nature, and one should be reasonably close even when severely impaired.

V might have been wrong about A beating the ABD easily, but chances are good that A is at least close to equal to the ABD, and more likely to be stronger than weaker. And it is virtually impossible that V could have been so off that A is in fact much weaker than the ABD and would have had no chance.

Also, V had only been kicked out by A very soon before joining the Order in the first place, and V's level was about 8-10 already at that point. There's no way A's level could be as low as 5-10. At least 14+ at the beginning of Dungeon Crawling Fools, plus whatever level gains if any since, is much more reasonable.

Seward

2014-01-12, 05:45 PM

ABD could probably handle the dragon if briefed on it and had 8 hours to sleep and reshuffle spells. That's the nature of wizards.

ABD fighting a surprise encounter from the dragon...not as likely to work. Antimagic-field/Grapple is in fact a classic tactic against high level wizards, even epic ones. It'll work if you get the drop on them. (which is why a lot of wizards in the very high tier like spells such as Foresight and Moment of Prescience).

Most of why the dragon defeated V so easily was that the dragon picked a great time to attack and had been studying V for weeks, where V knew nothing about the dragon.

ABD responding to an emergency communication and having to rush over with whatever spells ABD had racked that day? Probably not going to go as well, but as long as ABD gets the drop on the dragon rather than the reverse, success to the point of at least driving it off is fairly probable if ABD is at least as powerful as V was at that time.