Did Sabine lie to Nale?

[Charity322]

In comic 394, when Nale is trying to talk his way out of trouble with Sabine, she claims that she was angry because he was going to betray her by killing Haley when he knew she wanted to. She went on to pretty much say that she wouldn't have cared if he had been planning to sleep with her.

But in 385 when she's talking to Vaarsuvius it really sounds like she's mad about him going on the date with Haley. She talks about Nale groping Haley and she and V talk about fighting for love and not letting him slip further under her charms.

Do you reckon she realised that Nale was planning to kill Haley only when she confronted him, and lied about what she was upset about because she didn't want to let him know that she cared about him that much?

[Setra]

In comic 394, when Nale is trying to talk his way out of trouble with Sabine, she claims that she was angry because was going to betray her by killing Haley when he knew she wanted to. She went on to pretty much say that she wouldn't have cared if he had been planning to sleep with her.

But in 385 when she's talking to Vaarsuvius it really sounds like she's mad about him going on the date with Haley. She talks about Nale groping Haley and she and V talk about fighting for love and not letting him slip further under her charms.

Do you reckon she realised that Nale was planning to kill Haley only when she confronted him, and lied about what she was upset about because she didn't want to let him know that she cared about him that much?

That is a very interesting possibility, and is not outside the realm of such.

[Balathustrius]

That inconsistency bothered me, too, but I think your explanation makes a lot of sense.

[Tabiani]

Not to mention the whole exchange in #378 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) ("Ahem...I believe I said, 'Ahem'.") and the look she gave Haley as they walked away.

Yeah, Sabine knows how to push Nale's buttons.

[Jewel Thief]

Weird. Could this be a mistake on Rich's part?

[Corolinth]

While I know that we love to debate on whether Sabine is a devil or a demon, the simplest solution to this dilemma is that Sabine is CE, and thus not accountable for things like emotional consistency.

[Sphyre]

Weird. Could this be a mistake on Rich's part?

I doubt it. I'm sure it was meant to look like that for the joke. Just because you don't understand her at first doesn't mean it was a mistake.

Keep in mind, it's Nale that studders around the fact that Sabine knew he was going to kill her not that he was cheating on her. She was upset that Nale would go against her wishes to kill Haley. Instead of let Nale go through with the plan, she stopped his plan to kill her so she could get the pleasure, and kill her instead. Although Elan's appearance thwarted that outcome.

In fact, as a devil (yes, I'm 99.9999% sure she's a devil due to the way she responds. Remember back when Roy bested her in combat, so she said 'well I'm all yours now.' or something like that), that's very much like her, to have her desire to kill Haley over most of all of her other desires. She was pissed that he would go with his "first alone first kill policy," esspecially on the person she wanted to kill because of her hate of her. She's pissed that he wouldn't leave that 'pleasure' to her. Notice that when Nale says that it was a plan for both of them killing Haley, that's when Sabine is ok with it. Remember, she's a Devil, not a human. She doesn't have the same focus on things like humans do. It's somewhat of an alien concept to humans, but for an "evil incarnate of elicit sex" it's quite likely what she'd be thinking.

It's actually a work of art to make all your readers think she's pissed off about one thing and to have it really be something else.

[phobiandarkmoon]

In comic 394, when Nale is trying to talk his way out of trouble with Sabine, she claims that she was angry because he was going to betray her by killing Haley when he knew she wanted to. She went on to pretty much say that she wouldn't have cared if he had been planning to sleep with her.

But in 385 when she's talking to Vaarsuvius it really sounds like she's mad about him going on the date with Haley. She talks about Nale groping Haley and she and V talk about fighting for love and not letting him slip further under her charms.

Do you reckon she realised that Nale was planning to kill Haley only when she confronted him, and lied about what she was upset about because she didn't want to let him know that she cared about him that much?

She was upset about him going on the date - because she knew he was going to kill Haley against her wishes

[Alfryd]

It's actually a work of art to make all your readers think she's pissed off about one thing and to have it really be something else.What 'reality' are you referring to here? Based on this fictitious comic strip, it appears a lot of readers are under the impression Sabine is lying about being offended merely by the idea of not being able to kill Haley.
Witness:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html

"Scum-sucking two-timing Lowlife."
"Whether to continue drinking yourself into a stupor and allowing him to slip further under the influence of her charms..."

Also, in 378, she's irritated that Nale is, however tentatively, aroused by Haley, with no indication that he plans to kill her first.

I don't think there's really enough ambiguity here for the supposed 'gag' to work.

[Sphyre]

"Whether to continue drinking yourself into a stupor and allowing him to slip further under the influence of her charms..."

Just to point out. That's V's veiw of it. Not Sabine's.

Basically what Sabine got from it was that she was inspired to go "correct" Nale's behavior, as opposed to let him finish his plan.

[Cifer]

I believe the "Ahem" strip could be explained: Sabine saw that Nale was forming a plan to kill her by using Haley's attraction to non-nale.

As for the other one, well, the only person making references about romance is V.

[Alfryd]

the only person making references about romance is V.
Yes, but Sabine folows up with 'Y'know, you're right!', rather than a qualified yes, which would tend to indicate that *is* Sabine's viewpoint.
The point is, if the audience has to bend over backwards to accomodate themselves to this later interpretation, as we're basically doing here, then the humour hasn't really come off smoothly.

Sabine saw that Nale was forming a plan to kill her by using Haley's attraction to non-nale.
How? What, at the time, could possibly give her that impression?

[Morty]

That's interesting theory-I've been wondering about that myself- and I'll agree with Alfryd on that one. You don't usually drink yourself into stupor just because you can't kill someone you want to kill.

[Amon Star]

Remember back when Roy bested her in combat, so she said 'well I'm all yours now.' or something like that).

I doubt she ment it. That was more likely a ploy of some kind.


The point is, if the audience has to bend over backwards to accomodate themselves to this later interpretation, as we're basically doing here, then the humour hasn't really come off smoothly.

Maybe it wasn't done for humour. Maybe it was done to misdirect us the readers. Like :miko:'s speach when we first saw her.

[Jefepato]

Yes, but Sabine folows up with 'Y'know, you're right!', rather than a qualified yes, which would tend to indicate that *is* Sabine's viewpoint.

So either she was so drunk that she ignored V's references to romance and mentally replaced them with murder, or she was sober enough to not tell V that Nale was about to kill V's friend.

[Sphyre]

I don't she ment it. That was more likely a ploy of some kind.

Actually after I made that post I realized that if she's according to D&D rules, a Demon. The Succubus is a Demon in the Monster Manual.

[atteSmythe]

Sabine saw that Nale was forming a plan to kill her by using Haley's attraction to non-nale.How? What, at the time, could possibly give her that impression?Nale had already begun systematically dismantling the Order, starting in Bridgeport. Sabine knows Nale's plans, so the only reason he would be paying attention to any given member of the Order would be to plot their downfall.

Nale could have any woman in the city if he was just looking for hex, and Sabine couldn't care less. He wouldn't jeopardize his mission by getting close to Haley, therefore if he's paying attention to her, he's planning to kill her.

That's how I took it, anyway.

[Green Bean]

That's interesting theory-I've been wondering about that myself- and I'll agree with Alfryd on that one. You don't usually drink yourself into stupor just because you can't kill someone you want to kill.

It may be different for outsiders. I mean, would an embodiment of 'illicit sex' take the idea of a cheating boyfriend that seriously?

[Morty]

It may be different for outsiders. I mean, would an embodiment of 'illicit sex' take the idea of a cheating boyfriend that seriously?

She is a demon/devil, but she's very human-like. As for 'illicit sex', she may have been bluffing. If she didn't it's very strange. First she's drinking herself dead because Nale went out with Haley, and later she says she's just mad because he was going to kill her himself- not something you'd drink yourself dead because of. These two doesn't fit.

[Querzis]

She is a demon/devil, but she's very human-like. As for 'illicit sex', she may have been bluffing. If she didn't it's very strange. First she's drinking herself dead because Nale went out with Haley, and later she says she's just mad because he was going to kill her himself- not something you'd drink yourself dead because of. These two doesn't fit.

Why do real people get drunk when their lover cheat on them? Its mainly because their lover betrayed them, not just for the sex and for a demon/devil, killing and revenge are way more serious topic then just sex so Nale really betrayed her. Beside, Nale dont even have this excuse: «I didnt know it would be so important to you» since revenge is as important for him as it is for Sabine.

Sorry but I really dont see why Sabine would care if Nale cheat on her but I know why she get mad if he take away her revenge. I agree that Sabine is very human-like but what I said dont apply just to demon/devil, if a normal human just consider sex as a fun thing to do, it wont bother him/her if his/her lover have sex with someone else as long as its just sex.

[DaMullet]

In fact, as a devil (yes, I'm 99.9999% sure she's a devil due to the way she responds. Remember back when Roy bested her in combat, so she said 'well I'm all yours now.' or something like that)
Methinks thou doth confuse Demons with Devils. The female Devil is the Eyrines, a fierce combatant.

The female Demon, on the other hand, is a succubus, a less fierce and more subtle combatant, not to mention one more prone to sexual misadventures.

[The Extinguisher]

Sabine could probably see what Nale was planning, and got upset about that. Nale "two-timing" her, could actually do with the killing. Remember, they have that kind of relationship. She was just too drunk to notice that V was talking about romance rather than death.

[Charity322]

But what about when V asked if she loved him and she said yes? That sounds like jealousy.

[Querzis]

But what about when V asked if she loved him and she said yes? That sounds like jealousy.

Thats what I said, she got drunk over it because the one she is in love with betrayed her, thats all. If she woudnt love Nale she would just have killed both of them.

[Aimbot]

I have a different reason to believe the OP on this one.

This immortal being, one that is the embodiment of evil and has likely as not spent an incalculable amount of time dealing with potent and deceitful beings of similar inclement believed a spur of the moment lie that was essentually:
"Nuh-uh."

It seems to me she was more agree about him cheating on her and "bought" the bluff to end the conversation.


If you think that double standards, unsaid complaints and deceit aren't part of a relationship you lead a blessed (or oblivious) life.

[Green Bean]

But what about when V asked if she loved him and she said yes? That sounds like jealousy.

There's a difference between sex and love. Perhaps :nale: and :sabine: express their affection through brutally murdering innocent people, instead of casting Genesis: The Beast With Two Backs

[Alfryd]

Maybe it was done to misdirect us the readers.How? Miko fully intended to skewer her quarry.


...the only reason he would be paying attention to any given member of the Order would be to plot their downfall.I don't see how that would be incompatible with some action on the side.

He wouldn't jeopardize his mission by getting close to Haley...Because, gosh, Nale never indulges in needless complications for drama's sake.

Besides, Sabine didn't object beforehand, in principle, to Nale killing Haley, provided that she were the first alone (and V was clearly in a public place, which further leads me to believe Sabine's either lying or rationalising. Furthermore, she was offended well before knowing that V was supposedly alone.)
It just doesn't add up.

So either she was so drunk that she ignored V's references to romance and mentally replaced them with murder, or she was sober enough to not tell V that Nale was about to kill V's friend.Or *maybe* she lied to Nale about her true motives. Which is a simpler and more consistent explanation.

I mean, would an embodiment of 'illicit sex' take the idea of a cheating boyfriend that seriously?And how can be a being of pure Chaotic Evil make romantic commitments?

[atteSmythe]

Hey, I didn't say I agree with it - that's just my view of Sabine's take on the situation.

If you start with the premise that you have a couple who trust each other and express their commitment to each other through acts of violence, then a murder planned without the other becomes 'cheating.' While I admit that the argument requires a starting premise (rather than being able to work out the relationship details based on their reaction to circumstance), it seems self-consistent to me.

And that's the joke - replacing the premise, which the reader realizes was wrong only after the reveal.

[Amon Star]

Actually after I made that post I realized that if she's according to D&D rules, a Demon. The Succubus is a Demon in the Monster Manual.

That's the problem. :sabine: doesn't EXACTLY match any monster in the MM. The closest is the Succubus, though.


How? Miko fully intended to skewer her quarry.

I was refering to the fact that many think that was un-Paladinic of her, and that The Giant said he did that so it would be a shock when the truth was revealed.


And how can be a being of pure Chaotic Evil make romantic commitments?

That's assuming :sabine: IS a being have pure Chaotic Evil and that she has made a TRUE romantic commitment to :nale:. Anyway, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds, yes they can.

[Renegade Paladin]

In fact, as a devil (yes, I'm 99.9999% sure she's a devil due to the way she responds. Remember back when Roy bested her in combat, so she said 'well I'm all yours now.' or something like that), that's very much like her, to have her desire to kill Haley over most of all of her other desires.
No, she's obviously a demon because as a succubus she'd want Roy to get close so she could level-drain him to death by kissing him. It was a transparent trick.

[The Extinguisher]

Succubi drain through a kiss right? Sabine can clearly drain just by touch. She's not a succubus. She's close, but not exact.

Remember: They have a different kind of relationship. It's not all about sex. They love each other, thats for sure, but they show their love by killing. Therefore, Nale 'cheated' on her by trying to kill Haley by himself.

[DaMullet]

Succubi drain through a kiss right? Sabine can clearly drain just by touch. She's not a succubus. She's close, but not exact.
If I may, this is a direct quote from the SRD on the matter.

Energy Drain (Su) A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will Save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 21 for the Fortitude Save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.
Emphasis mine. A kiss is simply the most common method of energy drain, and though it seems she clearly isn't involved in any passionate acts with Haley, ever, I enjoy picking out logical fallacies.

Have a good day.

[Talyn]

Right. Also, we've never seen her use any of the erinyes bag of tricks - charm person comes to mind, or the animate rope/entangle ability. So, succubus.

But hey, just because you are immortal and evil doesn't mean you can't develop a sort of crush on a handsome, intelligent and evil mortal man... and, hey, she's being of sexual selfishness incarnate, she's allowed to sleep around as much as she wants but her man had better know his place.

I think there really was more going on than just the "I wanted to kill her, honey" angle.

[Dark Dork]

Most of you here seem to think that Sabine is demon because she matches the description of a Succubus in the MM. But the MM doesn't show each type of fiend as the sequels of MM and Fiend Folio contain addition varieties. So, Sabine could easily be some other type of fiend, either demon or devil (or even demondand if you were really picky.)(also, I'm fully aware that the Giant sticks to core DnD so this might not be the case.). Also, Sabine has shown she can hold her own against Roy in a fight which is contrary to the tactics of a Succubus who would flee unless cornered.

But this is off topic.

I agree that something doesn't quite add up. Perhaps she's lying. We already know she isn't telling him that she's reporting on events concerning evil on the material plane to her big evil masters (380 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)) so what else could she be lying about?

[Koji]

I'm always amazed at how far ahead Rich thinks. I've never seen something like this turn out to be a mistake or oversight on his part. I keep wanting to call fanwanking on it, but there's usually something to these kinds of things.

[Erloas]

When Sabine talks to V it isn't clear exactly what she is complaining about. V would just assume that Sabine is talking about cheating in the sense of sleeping with someone else or falling in love with someone else. V wouldn't ever just assume that this stranger is mad at someone else for killing someone without them, it just doesn't normally make any sense.

As for what Sabine is actually mad about, I think part of it was that Nale went out of his way almost as quickly as possible to get Haley into a position to kill her. Its not even like a first alone first dead sort of situation when you go so far out of your way to set it up in the first place, he could have just as easily lead Durkon or V or Roy or Belkar away with some random reasoning and killed them, he even had the chance with Belkar and passed it up.

On the other hand I think Sabine was mad at him for his potential intentions of sleeping with Haley before killing her. She might be all about illiciet sex, but that doesn't mean she isn't going to have double-standards for someone else. And she probably sees it all right if she cheats, its what a "whatever it is sabine actually is" does, its expected of her, but a human such as Nale should treat it as other humans do, monogomisly. (which I'm sure is spelled wrong but I don't feel like looking it up right now, assuming how I used it is even a real word) Its not too uncommon for someone to think its ok for them to sleep around but not for someone else. There is also the chance that she has more feeling for Nale then she would conciously admit to and act differently then she actually feels.

[Haruki-kun]

COme to think of it...... when Nale figured out that Haley was in love with Elan, Sabine cleared her throat loudly when he said it was "fascinatng"

OOTS #378 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html)

so yeah, you might be on to something

[Amon Star]

Also, Sabine has shown she can hold her own against Roy in a fight which is contrary to the tactics of a Succubus who would flee unless cornered.

That was only because she was buffed to the max. As soon as they went down she resorted to trickery/surrendering.