People to statues to nightmares.

[rmnimoc]

So I was a bit heartbroken when my DM shot down my hopes of using wall of stone and stone to flesh to make an undead army without needing to kill a whole punch of people first on the grounds that the flesh isn't the corpse of a creature (and has no skeleton). So I can kinda understand that, and was about to totally give up on the idea, when a question came to my head. What if you used flesh to stone first? My main problem is that I need to get some serious numbers of humanish undead without pissing off another of the players (a paladin) more than I absolutely need to. So my question is, could I flesh to stone a bunch of animals, stone shape them into humans, stone to flesh them, then raise them as a bunch of human-like undead? If not would flesh to stone, stone to mud, craft (sculpting), mud to stone, stone to flesh work? If neither of those, any other ideas?

These undead don't actually have to be competent, they just need to:
1. Look human enough that a good disguise check (while covered in armor) can fake them being so,
2. Be able to wield longbows,
3. Be able to see and hear at least as well as the average commoner.

[Flickerdart]

There's no RAW support for using Stone Shape to rearrange corpses (the "fine detail" clause kind of screws you over).

[Zanos]

1. Wall Of Stone
2. Stone Shape(or craft(stoneworking))
3. Stone to Flesh


The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse)

Animate dead does not target dead creatures, it targets corpses. You can create corpses by casting stone to flesh on statues.

[Hangwind]

1. Wall Of Stone
2. Stone Shape(or craft(stoneworking))
3. Stone to Flesh



Animate dead does not target dead creatures, it targets corpses. You can create corpses by casting stone to flesh on statues.

More to the point, the text specifically says that the corpse is inert without magical energy. I would say that Necromancy counts as magical, no?:smalltongue:

Is it evil? Eh, my table houserules that there are no evil spells so...

[Anxe]

Your undead absolutely have to be human shaped? Do goblin shapes work? And why is the paladin okay with any type of necromancy? Are his vows looser than the stereotype paladin?

EDIT:

Animate dead does not target dead creatures, it targets corpses. You can create corpses by casting stone to flesh on statues.
It's in the text of the spell though.

"This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands."

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have you considered using an army of constructs instead?

Wall of iron > fabricate (into suits of mountain plate armor) > animate object > permanency

You get a pile of steel juggernauts on the cheap. A little vulnerable to dispel magic but they're absolutely dirt cheap if you can get around the XP component of permanency (not hard).

[rmnimoc]

There's no RAW support for using Stone Shape to rearrange corpses (the "fine detail" clause kind of screws you over).
Yeah, I figured that might be a problem. Luckily for me I just so happen to have a cleric follower who used to be a sculptor.



1. Wall Of Stone
2. Stone Shape(or craft(stoneworking))
3. Stone to Flesh


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone to Flesh
The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse)

Animate dead does not target dead creatures, it targets corpses. You can create corpses by casting stone to flesh on statues.
My DM is basing it off the fact it doesn't have a skeleton and the fact that chucks of meat usually don't have any creature info to add a template to.


More to the point, the text specifically says that the corpse is inert without magical energy. I would say that Necromancy counts as magical, no?
I can't think of any boneless undead that I can make and are 1~2 HD.

Is it evil? Eh, my table houserules that there are no evil spells so...

And why is the paladin okay with any type of necromancy? Are his vows looser than the stereotype paladin?
In this campaign using any negative energy at all is considered an evil act, which is the only reason I am neutral instead of the good I would otherwise be. I originally was evil, but the DM ruled that I clearly no longer am because of the small cult (the rest of the party refuses to admit it, but I caught one praying to me so......) of orphans that follows me everywhere after I saved them. The paladin just so happens to fail spot checks whenever I use necromancy. He also has a tendency to be easily distracted by cantrips. Plus, the paladin decided that anyone who can put up with "a bunch of annoying brats who firmly believe their only purpose in life is to get kidnapped to force you to save them" is obviously good, regardless of what detect evil says. I think he's just jealous that isn't the one with a fan club. >.>


Your undead absolutely have to be human shaped? Do goblin shapes work?
These undead have to be able to be disguised as either: dwarves, halflings, gnomes, humans, or elves. I'd prefer it if I could made them medium sized.


Have you considered using an army of constructs instead?

Wall of iron > fabricate (into suits of mountain plate armor) > animate object > permanency

You get a pile of steel juggernauts on the cheap. A little vulnerable to dispel magic but they're absolutely dirt cheap if you can get around the XP component of permanency (not hard).

1. I'm a dread necromancer and undead are awesome (all sorts of fancy bonuses, I can heal them, they are kind of my thing) with delicious flavory reasons as well.

2. I don't know animate objects, permanancy, wall of iron, or fabricate. I also don't have anyone who know those spells that I can convince to do it for me without some serious cash changing hands.

3. I need to be able to disguise them as normal soldiers at a distance and at close range.

[Erik Vale]

Corpse Creature from... BoVD [I think] doesn't require bones and is basically a zombie that craps on other zombies... But you need create undead instead and then a method to gain control.

Ask your GM if your wizard can research a spell that makes corpses. Or a spell that creates the entire undead from nothing for greater cost, with a limited range of zombies/skeletons it can meke. Assuming you are a wizard of corse.

You could even point to summon undead and Hallisters Summons [The later is 3.0 material and the name may be wrong] for supporting material.

Edit: Or you could use planar binding and kill the trapped creature. Set up a couple of ballistas pointing at the circle.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Flesh to stone some dead (or not so dead) bodies.

Stone shape the bodies into roughly humanoid shaped statues with no discernible detail.

(Optional step) get your sculptor to chisel details into the rough statuary.

Stone to flesh the statues.

Net result: humanoid shaped corpses that are not identifiable as unique individuals.

Animate at will.




On the RAW issue; if stone to flesh turns a statue into a corpse it seems rather obvious, to me at least, that it would be a corpse of the same creature as the statue was likened to. That is; a statue of an elf makes an elf corpse, a statue of a dwarf makes a dwarf corpse, etc. That the sculptor of the statue must be familiar with the creature to make an accurate statue is not unreasonable but isn't actually RAW.

[rmnimoc]

1.
Corpse Creature from... BoVD [I think] doesn't require bones and is basically a zombie that craps on other zombies... But you need create undead instead and then a method to gain control.
I try to avoid BoVD whenever I can, but I'll check it out.

2.
Ask your GM if your wizard can research a spell that makes corpses. Or a spell that creates the entire undead from nothing for greater cost, with a limited range of zombies/skeletons it can meke. Assuming you are a wizard of course.
Dread Necro. That aside, I'm a huge hated of the create undead from absolutely nothing. It's why I refuse to play GW2.

3.
Or you could use planar binding and kill the trapped creature. Set up a couple of ballistas pointing at the circle.
Never again. I'd like to survive to be immortal, and having a horde of infuriated outsiders after you tends to make that a bit more challenging. Plus, I have enough potential plot hooks floating around me, and I have no doubt at all my DM would have no qualms with going after my orphan cult if I did that. Weird though they are, I've grown rather fond of them. The DM happens to strongly think that you aren't about to be forgotton while the outsider is reforming, and soon as it finishes coming back there will be hell to pay. Sometimes literally.

4.
Flesh to stone some dead (or not so dead) bodies.

Stone shape the bodies into roughly humanoid shaped statues with no discernible detail.

(Optional step) get your sculptor to chisel details into the rough statuary.

Stone to flesh the statues.

Net result: humanoid shaped corpses that are not identifiable as unique individuals.

Animate at will.
Pretty much the plan ATM.

[Hangwind]

My DM is basing it off the fact it doesn't have a skeleton and the fact that chucks of meat usually don't have any creature info to add a template to.


Boneless? How does he figure they are boneless? The spell says it makes corpses, not steaks.

Although, if any meat made is boneless, you now have a way of opening a restaurant.:smallwink:

[rmnimoc]

Boneless? How does he figure they are boneless? The spell says it makes corpses, not steaks.

Although, if any meat made is boneless, you now have a way of opening a restaurant.
1."The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy
substance."
Flesh is the softer parts of a body, like skin and meat.

2.I tried that, turns out people aren't huge fans of eating mystery meat that very well might have come from a sentient being. Who'd have guessed?

[Erik Vale]

3.
Never again. I'd like to survive to be immortal, and having a horde of infuriated outsiders after you tends to make that a bit more challenging. Plus, I have enough potential plot hooks floating around me, and I have no doubt at all my DM would have no qualms with going after my orphan cult if I did that. Weird though they are, I've grown rather fond of them. The DM happens to strongly think that you aren't about to be forgotton while the outsider is reforming, and soon as it finishes coming back there will be hell to pay. Sometimes literally.


?
If you kill the outsider, it can't come back, planar binding is a calling spell, allowing the outsider to be actually killed.
And summon monster leaves no corpse.

There is some fluff somewhere I think about demons/devils being able to reform anyway after 400 or so years, and whilst a noble goal IC, IRL will your game go on for over 400 IC years? And if so, you should have quite a few levels on those outsiders by then.

Of course, your DM could be ruling them to reform and do so faster.

Also, mystery meat? Make a bunch of stone chickens* and say it's chicken*. At most butchers get uppity because you don't need to buy from them, but you shouldn't be too scared of a bunch of commoners by this point.
*Substitute Desired Animal.

[rmnimoc]

If you kill the outsider, it can't come back, planar binding is a calling spell, allowing the outsider to be actually killed.
And summon monster leaves no corpse.

There is some fluff somewhere I think about demons/devils being able to reform anyway after 400 or so years, and whilst a noble goal IC, IRL will your game go on for over 400 IC years? And if so, you should have quite a few levels on those outsiders by then.

Of course, your DM could be ruling them to reform and do so faster.

"Hey Bill*, how's it going." "Pretty Good Ted*, you?" "Not too bad, any idea where Kenny* went? I haven't seen him the last couple of days." "No idea, let's find out." *Scrys* "He killed Kenny*! That B******!!!!!!!!" "Now, let's be fair, I'm sure it isn't that bad." "Hi Ted*, hi Bill*, either of you seen [random hundred or so names here]?" "THAT SON OF A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Name have been changed to protect the questionably innocent.
That legitimately happened in another campaign while I was locked up in Hell at one point. Next thing you know there is a couple of devils wondering where their underlings went. After that I had some company in form of a bunch of flayed and mutilated friendly NPCs who were killed because one of the players decided it would be a good idea to get an army of undead dead devils. After I got out of there I found the PC who had been doing it completely and utterly mentally broken. He had to roll up a new character. Message received, loud and clear.

Also, mystery meat? Make a bunch of stone chickens* and say it's chicken*. At most butchers get uppity because you don't need to buy from them, but you shouldn't be too scared of a bunch of commoners by this point.
*Substitute Desired Animal.

I had just wall of stone-stone to flesh for the meat. I'm officially wanted in 5 cities for "crimes against humanity". They figured I was a canabal. Hilarity did not ensue. While commoners may not have been a threat, the small army of paladins and clerics that came to arrest me were. It doesn't help that I rolled a 1 when I tried to explain the truth.

[Anxe]

At this point I think grave robbing is your best option. That fails the "up close looking like humanoids" clause though.

[Hangwind]

I can't think of any boneless undead that I can make and are 1~2 HD.


Well, if you're willing to go for three HD Brain in a Jar is an option.