[3.5] Should I give my characters a free ride

[AntiTrust]

Characters all have WBL and have spent it all on items or otherwise acquired items. Now they want to travel from one side of the continent to the other and are complaining they have no money to make the trip (Its eberron) without selling items.

Should I

A. You didn't save any for discretionary spending, next time you'll learn not to spend all your cash. You'll have to sell some stuff.

B. Well it just so happens there's this raffle for a free ticket, the caravan needs guards, etc etc

I tend to be of the "look before you leap" sort and am leaning towards A. But I know B has some possible sidequest fun too so I'm just sort of torn.

[Zman]

How about a small side quest for some easy coin?

Otherwise, Option B is best. Maybe get them close, and force them to be a bit more resourceful to get the rest if the way.

[eggynack]

There's always sidequests hanging around in places, and there's always money to be earned by enterprising adventurers. Don't just hand them free rides, but if they want to take down a nearby dragon for some quick cash, that seems pretty reasonable. Such a thing would necessitate them deferring their travel, which is something of a consequence in and of itself. If they actually need to do this immediately, then they should probably have to sell items.

[AMFV]

Characters all have WBL and have spent it all on items or otherwise acquired items. Now they want to travel from one side of the continent to the other and are complaining they have no money to make the trip (Its eberron) without selling items.

Should I

A. You didn't save any for discretionary spending, next time you'll learn not to spend all your cash. You'll have to sell some stuff.

B. Well it just so happens there's this raffle for a free ticket, the caravan needs guards, etc etc

I tend to be of the "look before you leap" sort and am leaning towards A. But I know B has some possible sidequest fun too so I'm just sort of torn.

Can't they walk? I mean they'd get lots of adventures on the way, and if it's across the continent then walking would be optimal. And very cost efficient, also the DM has lots of opportunity for side quests that way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can't they walk? I mean they'd get lots of adventures on the way, and if it's across the continent then walking would be optimal. And very cost efficient, also the DM has lots of opportunity for side quests that way.

I agree with this entirely.

If they didn't think to keep a little money for travel expenses then let them walk.

They could also do a quick side job to earn travel money, try to steal a vehicle, ask a favor of a guild mage that can call in that favor in the future, stow away on an airship, etc, etc. Booking passage normally is only one way of many to get from point to point. If their own carelessness has denied them that option they need to choose another.

[Chronos]

If you want them to be over there for the sake of your story, then come up with some way for them to be able to get there (possibly against their will, though of course they should have the opportunity to oppose this). If it's more of a sandbox game and they just decided that they'd rather be over there for their own reasons, then they need to be the ones to come up with a way to get there. They can try asking the captain if he wants armed guards... and roll a diplomacy check for it. They can take up odd jobs. They can try to get there using their own resources (casting spells like Shadow Walk or Wind Walk, maybe). They can sell something to buy their tickets.

Bottom line, though, if it's their decision to go, then they need to figure out how.

[qwertyu63]

Fun fact: a character can make money via Preform, Profession and/or Craft checks, most of which can be done untrained. They lose some time, earns some money and move on their way.

[AntiTrust]

Walking would probably take months, They want to go from Sharn to Gatherhold which means going around the Mournland.

This isn't for any part of the story I had, one of the players knows someone in the Talenta Planes that will teach him his prc. So I guess in so much as I require prc's to be taught by someone they find I guess its part of my story.

I definitely see the merits of giving them a sidequest, but doesn't anyone else think that just encourages them to always just spend all their cash?

I imagine them thinking

"I can either defer buying X item to save for a ride on the lightning rail OR I can buy it now and then do a sidequest where I'll get XP, and at least enough money for the ride if not even more. Why would I ever save?"

[Kelb_Panthera]

Walking would probably take months, They want to go from Sharn to Gatherhold which means going around the Mournland.

This isn't for any part of the story I had, one of the players knows someone in the Talenta Planes that will teach him his prc. So I guess in so much as I require prc's to be taught by someone they find I guess its part of my story.

I definitely see the merits of giving them a sidequest, but doesn't anyone else think that just encourages them to always just spend all their cash?

I imagine them thinking

"I can either defer buying X item to save for a ride on the lightning rail OR I can buy it now and then do a sidequest where I'll get XP, and at least enough money for the ride if not even more. Why would I ever save?"

So don't -give- them a sidequest, let them go looking for one -if- that's what they choose to do to get the money they need.

IRL if you're self employed and you don't have enough money you look for a job either in your field or a part time wage grind. Seeking out a sidequest as an adventurer is no different. Since sidequests come with the inherent danger that all quests do there's no reason they should think of it as "free" XP. Either the sidequest is dangerous enough that one or more of them could die and it's worth decent cash and XP or it's trivially difficult and they get less cash and little to no XP.

In their position I'd probably see about getting a favor; get where you're going and a plot-hook in one fell swoop.

In any case it's not your job as a DM to teach your players or their characters fiscal responsibility. Don't -always- have a sidequest for them to find for the same reason you don't always give them a free ride, it doesn't make sense for the same solution to just appear for them every time. A free ride every now and then is fine but only if it makes sense in the context of events leading up to it.

[AMFV]

Walking would probably take months, They want to go from Sharn to Gatherhold which means going around the Mournland.

That sounds like a quest and plot line to me... If your players are giving you plot on a silver platter don't turn it down.

[RustyArmor]

Reminds me of a time I DMed. One player spent nearly every silver piece on magic items and gear. His last 1k he ask for a gem worth 1k. "I said sure why not."

Start of game he goes to bar. Buys a drink and chugs it and ask how much. Bartender says "Two silver lad." He looks at his sheet and just looked up dumbfounded and says. "I only have that gem for 1k." Bartender laughs and says he couldn't give change for that if he had ten years. The rest of party pretty much had to meet his character in the stables in the back shoveling manure to pay for his drink.

[drack]

Kinda skipped over most of the posts so dunno if this was said, but depends on how gritty the game is. If nobody minds a bit o' grit go A, else go B. :smalltongue: That's the kind of dirty realism that can make your players really hate you and love your game.

[AntiTrust]

Kinda skipped over most of the posts so dunno if this was said, but depends on how gritty the game is. If nobody minds a bit o' grit go A, else go B. :smalltongue: That's the kind of dirty realism that can make your players really hate you and love your game.

My players like to think I'm a gritty hard-ass, but they've one shotted two BBEG's in my game so I think I have grounds to differ.

[Slipperychicken]

They could try sneaking onto the Lightning Rail. Or stealing/forging tickets.

[drack]

I definitely see the merits of giving them a sidequest, but doesn't anyone else think that just encourages them to always just spend all their cash?

I imagine them thinking

"I can either defer buying X item to save for a ride on the lightning rail OR I can buy it now and then do a sidequest where I'll get XP, and at least enough money for the ride if not even more. Why would I ever save?"

This tells me there's some merit to it. Be the gritty hard ass, seems to line up better with how you run your games, and if you run em with a bit of dust at the ankles they shouldn't expect spotless shoes. If they're one shooting BBEGs it's not rolling in the dirt gritty, but there seems to be some presence of it, and you seem to think it best. After all Ya gotta love having the tale to tell of when you go that new super cool +5 bastard sword and had to pawn it to some scrawny rat faced punk for pocket money and travel expenses. :smalltongue: After all everyone likes complaining right?

[Hurnn]

start walkin, or make some $$ before you go.

[Emperor Tippy]

A Teleport only has a price tag of 450 GP.

What level are they that the party as a whole can't come up with that kind of petty cash with ease?

I mean they are in Sharn. A day doing diplomatic protection. Or send the bard out for 20 minutes to Gather Information and find the stash house of some small time gang before spending another 20 minutes smashing it flat like the hammer of god and making off with the money (likely while collecting bounties on the criminals).

Hell, the party casters can go and sell their spell casting services for the day and even at level 3 or so expect to make a few hundred GP each for the day. A third level spell is 150 GP per casting.

In a city like Sharn the Cleric will have no problem finding a market for Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness/Deafness, or even Bestow Curse (the police tend to like that as do lawyers. Break this contract and you can no longer get an erection, for example).

Although you should make the party come up with ideas like this. Just shrug your shoulders and say "well you are the ones who are broke and want to travel across the continent. You figure out how you are going to do that.".

Doing that tends to make for more fun and interesting games.

[Dr. Cliché]

There's always sidequests hanging around in places, and there's always money to be earned by enterprising adventurers. Don't just hand them free rides, but if they want to take down a nearby dragon for some quick cash, that seems pretty reasonable.

Alternatively, they could subdue said dragon, mount a big saddle on it and bingo - they now have a flying mount to get them where they need to go. :smallbiggrin:

[Kesnit]

This isn't for any part of the story I had, one of the players knows someone in the Talenta Planes that will teach him his prc. So I guess in so much as I require prc's to be taught by someone they find I guess its part of my story.

A few questions...

1) How close is the PC to leveling? Is he already at the point where he would have picked up his PrC?

2) What did they spend their money on? Equipment to make them better adventurers, or frivolous stuff?

If the PC is ready to level, what you are doing is telling them (and the player) "I'm going to take away some of your enjoyment by not allowing you to progress." This is especially the case if, in answer to #2, they spent their WBL on stuff they need. Doubly true if they spent their WBL and then found out they'll have to cross the world.

None of this is applicable if (1) the PC is not yet ready to take the PrC, (2) they threw their WBL away, or (3) they knew before spending money where they would have to go next.

[Krobar]

Tell them **** happens and they spent their money. They can start walking and, since their destination is so very far away they'll surely come up with something eventually.

[molten_dragon]

Characters all have WBL and have spent it all on items or otherwise acquired items. Now they want to travel from one side of the continent to the other and are complaining they have no money to make the trip (Its eberron) without selling items.

Should I

A. You didn't save any for discretionary spending, next time you'll learn not to spend all your cash. You'll have to sell some stuff.

B. Well it just so happens there's this raffle for a free ticket, the caravan needs guards, etc etc

I tend to be of the "look before you leap" sort and am leaning towards A. But I know B has some possible sidequest fun too so I'm just sort of torn.

B sounds to me like it has more possibilities for fun. A just seems like punishing your players for spending their WBL on magic items (when in-game they should get an extra 10% or so for discretionary spending).

[Scootaloo]

I imagine them thinking

"I can either defer buying X item to save for a ride on the lightning rail OR I can buy it now and then do a sidequest where I'll get XP, and at least enough money for the ride if not even more. Why would I ever save?"

Uh, yeah. Not to be too harsh, but the point is that this is an adventure game, not a accounting firm sim. If they don't have the dough, then have 'em find a way to make the dough. It's more fun to go out as a bunch of caravan guards, than to just sit around where you are with hte DM wagging a finger about how you should have opened a savings account at Kundarak First National.

[AMFV]

Uh, yeah. Not to be too harsh, but the point is that this is an adventure game, not a accounting firm sim. If they don't have the dough, then have 'em find a way to make the dough. It's more fun to go out as a bunch of caravan guards, than to just sit around where you are with hte DM wagging a finger about how you should have opened a savings account at Kundarak First National.

They can walk, it's not like they can't go there at all. I'm not sure why walking is such a bad option most fantasy novels are based entirely around trying to walk from one place to another, The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, the Horse and His Boy, most of the books in the Wheel of Time, I mean that's like the best sort of adventure hook there is, as far as I can tell.

And if you don't want to force them to experience the walking, just fast forward time past it, then they'll get there just months later. Having had more bonding and the like off-panel.

[JungleChicken]

Walking would probably take months, They want to go from Sharn to Gatherhold which means going around the Mournland.

This isn't for any part of the story I had, one of the players knows someone in the Talenta Planes that will teach him his prc. So I guess in so much as I require prc's to be taught by someone they find I guess its part of my story.

I definitely see the merits of giving them a sidequest, but doesn't anyone else think that just encourages them to always just spend all their cash?

I imagine them thinking

"I can either defer buying X item to save for a ride on the lightning rail OR I can buy it now and then do a sidequest where I'll get XP, and at least enough money for the ride if not even more. Why would I ever save?"

I don't think it will encourage them to always spend money on items if they have to spend two or three game sessions doing questy stuff to make the coin for the travel. Also you can do such things as make some rolls arbitrarily high. Like gather information...no coin for a bribe and that hardened criminal or mercenary just won't give up information he knows is very valuable and such things like that.

Give the opportunity to get the money for the lightening rail....just make it take more than 20 minutes of game time.

[(Un)Inspired]

A few questions...

1) How close is the PC to leveling? Is he already at the point where he would have picked up his PrC?

2) What did they spend their money on? Equipment to make them better adventurers, or frivolous stuff?

If the PC is ready to level, what you are doing is telling them (and the player) "I'm going to take away some of your enjoyment by not allowing you to progress." This is especially the case if, in answer to #2, they spent their WBL on stuff they need. Doubly true if they spent their WBL and then found out they'll have to cross the world.

None of this is applicable if (1) the PC is not yet ready to take the PrC, (2) they threw their WBL away, or (3) they knew before spending money where they would have to go next.

Yeah I agree across the board here. If the PC is ready to level and you have a houserule in place that says they don't get the benefits for their prestige class unless they make this trip then you're forcing their hand and it's rude not to provide them a way to get to their tutor.

If this is not the case, then both you and your party are is a great position. Don't provide them with anything. Let your players come up with ways to earn cash/forge tickets/stow away.

If you just tell them "a man approaches you with an opportunity to make money to finance your voyage. " then you're just telling a story to people sitting around a table. It may be a good story, but it's still just a story. If, however, you let the pcs explore there options and come to you with solutions to their problem then youre all playing a game together. The best part of being a DM is players come up with clever plans that you would never have thought of yourself.

Maybe your players will need to organ grind in the streets with perform skills for a few days, maybe they'd sell their services as guards or spellcasters, maybe they'll do favors for sailors down by the docks. It's up to them to decide what courses of action their characters would take. Poverty is a great motivator.

[Zweisteine]

If they are traveling on invitation, have travel expenses be covered by whoever wants to see them (unless it's someone powerful enough that be invited to visit them is a great privelege even for someone of the PC's standings).

If they just want to go there because they want to visit another location, too bad for them. Maybe they can sign up as guards for the Lightning Rail (though that route no longer connects east and west Khorvaire).


They could always seek out some easy work (i.e. side quest) to make money. Of course, don't throw it at them. If they really want to get somewhere, and can't afford it just remind them that they are adventurers, and have an easy way to get rich.

Perhaps their casters (if any) could sell spelcasting services. Of course, the demand for such would be limited, as few can afford regular spellcasting. They'd probably also have to set lower prices, because they are less well-established than, say, a church or dragonmarked house.

If any of them are dragonmarked, they could try to obtain transport from their house (especially if they have the Mark of Storm or Passage). (And services provided to members of specific house members with the Favored in House feat are provided in Dragonmarked.)


Just be careful not to make them feel that you will provide anything they need if they can't afford it. Most importantly, don't just give them a free ride, or anything that is obviously an excuse to give them one (such as an invitation that doesn't lead to more plot after the meeting).

[nedz]

They should be able to make some cash without too much trouble. Worse case they have to sell an item — it's not like they are without assets.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

A Teleport only has a price tag of 450 GP.

What level are they that the party as a whole can't come up with that kind of petty cash with ease?

I mean they are in Sharn. A day doing diplomatic protection. Or send the bard out for 20 minutes to Gather Information and find the stash house of some small time gang before spending another 20 minutes smashing it flat like the hammer of god and making off with the money (likely while collecting bounties on the criminals).

Hell, the party casters can go and sell their spell casting services for the day and even at level 3 or so expect to make a few hundred GP each for the day. A third level spell is 150 GP per casting.

In a city like Sharn the Cleric will have no problem finding a market for Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness/Deafness, or even Bestow Curse (the police tend to like that as do lawyers. Break this contract and you can no longer get an erection, for example).

Although you should make the party come up with ideas like this. Just shrug your shoulders and say "well you are the ones who are broke and want to travel across the continent. You figure out how you are going to do that.".

Doing that tends to make for more fun and interesting games.

This reminds me of how I've always wanted to run a Shadowrun-style game in Sharn...

At lower levels, they could hire themselves out to house Orien or house Lyrandar as security (caravans and ships are both prone to attack, after all). At higher levels they could hire themselves out as escort to someone traveling to Gatherhold (someone from house Ghallanda perhaps?). If you've got someone with a high perform skill, maybe they could find someone looking to book them in Gatherhold, be it for a concert, a play, or an art installation? If they've got high knowledge skills, maybe someone would pay to bring them in to lecture or tutor? If you've got an Ecclesiarch, maybe someone wants them to give mass? If any of them have a connection to one of the houses (especially someone Favored in House), let them ply that connection. Maybe one of their patrons has a job in Q'Barra, the plains, Valenar, or Karrnath, and would be willing to let your group make a stop? If you've got an inquisitive, maybe someone could come with a case ("The game's afoot!")?

In all, if you're in Sharn and can't find a way to get to anywhere else, you're not looking hard enough.

[AntiTrust]

A few questions...

1) How close is the PC to leveling? Is he already at the point where he would have picked up his PrC?

2) What did they spend their money on? Equipment to make them better adventurers, or frivolous stuff?

If the PC is ready to level, what you are doing is telling them (and the player) "I'm going to take away some of your enjoyment by not allowing you to progress." This is especially the case if, in answer to #2, they spent their WBL on stuff they need. Doubly true if they spent their WBL and then found out they'll have to cross the world.

None of this is applicable if (1) the PC is not yet ready to take the PrC, (2) they threw their WBL away, or (3) they knew before spending money where they would have to go next.

1. I've actually postponed calculating xp to allow for that player to get into the prc at the entry level he wanted. Once he attains it I'll calculate the backlogged xp and give it out then.

2. They've mostly just spent it on weapons, magic items, etc. If by frivolous you mean like parties, booze and the like then no.

[AntiTrust]

If they are traveling on invitation, have travel expenses be covered by whoever wants to see them (unless it's someone powerful enough that be invited to visit them is a great privelege even for someone of the PC's standings).

The player wasn't invited. He just asked around about a certain fighting style (dervish) and the answers he got was that a tribe of halflings in Talenta hold the secrets that style.

[prufock]

1. Tell them they can make a sign that says "Traveling, broke, and hungry - money, food, or rides appreciated" and stand on a corner where merchant carts often pass through.

2. Sidequest for loot. Whether it's a heroic one or something as simple as a B&E or shakedown.

3. Service in lieu. They can get a ride, but they have to pay for it by doing grunt work for the caravan/airship/whatever.

4. Cheat. Worse case scenario, summon Pazuzu and wish for a teleport to wherever they're going.

[Urpriest]

You're seeing the issue with "you need X person to teach Y PrC." Players care enough about their builds that they're willing to overhaul the plot and run across the continent for no reason just because they want abilities that their character would develop on their own in a RAW game.

[AntiTrust]

You're seeing the issue with "you need X person to teach Y PrC." Players care enough about their builds that they're willing to overhaul the plot and run across the continent for no reason just because they want abilities that their character would develop on their own in a RAW game.

Makes me feel a little the opposite. That players are so overly concerned with getting into a prc the exact moment the guides online tell them they should to optimize their build that they are willing to drop whatever they were doing in order to pursue it. While at the same time not saving any money to make trips to these places.

Of course you're right about the RAW not requiring meeting anyone to get into a prc in most cases, but the DMG also says prcs are "purely optional" and yet so much focus is put into not just getting into them, but getting into them at breakneck speeds.

Alas I feel I'm in the minority in thinking this way hence why I just postponed giving out xp until the player can make it in the time frame he wants.

[Invader]

I don't understand how a party can be completely broke to be honest but with as easy transportation is to come by in Eberron I wouldn't give them anything for free.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Makes me feel a little the opposite. That players are so overly concerned with getting into a prc the exact moment the guides online tell them they should to optimize their build that they are willing to drop whatever they were doing in order to pursue it. While at the same time not saving any money to make trips to these places.

The underlined is an assumption I take umbrage with. While I have learned a -lot- about optimization by spending time on this board, I have never even -once- used an online handbook or guide as the basis for how I designed one of my character builds.

The earliest point for entry into a prestige class is patently obvious just by looking at the class' prerequisites and it's only natural to want to enter whichever PrC you've chosen as early as possible unless there's some compelling reason not to.

You created this problem by demanding that they must receive training to enter PrC's so you have no right to complain about the effect it has on the plot. Particularly with PrC's that aren't tied to organizations such a restriction is nonsensical anyway. Somebody had to be the first member of the PrC and there was nobody to teach him. If one character can develop the skills the class offers without aid why can't another? Sure they'd have to be exceptional but PC's are supposed to be exceptional.

Sorry for coming off so confrontational but that comment just really rubs me the wrong way.

[Captnq]

You should rob them.

Take everything you can. Promise them a side quest where the person hiring them doesn't pay up front and the job is illegal and they wind up on the run from the law.

This is Eberron. The setting of BETRAYAL. Everyone betrays EVERYONE all the time. Hell, just walking down to the market square you get betrayed like, four or five times. The only reason anything gets done in eberron is because the people trying to betray you get betrayed and so the person trying to betray you fails to betray you and you accidentally succeed!

I'm not making this up, by the way. Read the setting cover to cover sometime.

You need to start to torture these people. Get them nice and paranoid. Then, when they finally don't trust anyone, offer them a free ticket. Your goal is to get them to refuse a good thing because they fear they are being set up.

Now me? I'd offer them duty on a flying ship where they are guards going to the place they "want to go", but instead have them knocked out by sleeping gas, their clothes stolen, every magic item stripped, and have them left naked in the jungles of Xen'drik.

[AntiTrust]

The underlined is an assumption I take umbrage with. While I have learned a -lot- about optimization by spending time on this board, I have never even -once- used an online handbook or guide as the basis for how I designed one of my character builds.

The earliest point for entry into a prestige class is patently obvious just by looking at the class' prerequisites and it's only natural to want to enter whichever PrC you've chosen as early as possible unless there's some compelling reason not to.

You created this problem by demanding that they must receive training to enter PrC's so you have no right to complain about the effect it has on the plot. Particularly with PrC's that aren't tied to organizations such a restriction is nonsensical anyway. Somebody had to be the first member of the PrC and there was nobody to teach him. If one character can develop the skills the class offers without aid why can't another? Sure they'd have to be exceptional but PC's are supposed to be exceptional.

Sorry for coming off so confrontational but that comment just really rubs me the wrong way.

Eh, I disagree, maybe you want to mark yourself as an exception to that, but based on the players that tend to come to my tables, I find the opposite to be true. Could be different for different dm's, but that's what my 3.5 experience has been.

I also don't think the earliest entry into a prc is patently obvious either. Prc's can have what some people would call "early entry cheese" and in about 75% of the cases where it is possible, I usually have to see it at my table.

I'm not sure how requiring trainers for prc's turned into demanding like I'm some tyrant. I like the idea of trainers and it gives the players more npc's they can form a strong bond with that can then create good stories. Can people train themselves? For some prc's, but the idea that everyone in a prc is self taught strikes me as not only a missed opportunity, but also a bit silly. Still, for some prc's I've allowed it, just depends on what it is.

My whole complaint, although I was asking for advice originally and not actually complaining, was that given that they knew about the trainer thing as well as travel costs since before the campaign started should I give them a free ride when the players early entry for his prc is at stake. Or would have been if I hadn't suspended xp gains. In this case its their items that are at stake unless they, or I, come up with a way to give them some more cash.

No worries about being confrontational to me, but no hard feelings I hope.

[eggynack]

How do you early entry a dervish, exactly? BAB requirements are pretty stiff, and the feat requirements are reasonably easy to finish off before the BAB requirements. I mean, I guess if your players are tossing around some dusk giant level cheese, it's vaguely plausible, but then why the hell are they having problems getting across a continent? The point is, with a few exceptions, most classes have a reasonably obvious entry level, and it requires some pretty high duty gamesplosion to bypass that level.

Edit: Also, not entirely sure why the dervish is one of the "Seek out an ancient master" classes. Seems like pretty standard stuff.

[(Un)Inspired]

But some prestige classes specify that you need training like ur priest...

There are already rules on the books for some prestige classes that need training to enter so it's seems a bit strange to force training on players when they try to enter ones that don't...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh, I disagree, maybe you want to mark yourself as an exception to that, but based on the players that tend to come to my tables, I find the opposite to be true. Could be different for different dm's, but that's what my 3.5 experience has been.

What? It's your experience that most people stick closely to the guides? That -does- strike me as a problem. Half the point of playing an RPG is the opportunity to be creative and throwing away the opportunity to be creative during character creation and development just strikes me as wrong. To each their own I guess but that's something I'd definitely discourage.


I also don't think the earliest entry into a prc is patently obvious either. Prc's can have what some people would call "early entry cheese" and in about 75% of the cases where it is possible, I usually have to see it at my table.

Skill rank, BAB, and base saving throw bonus requirements are -very- difficult to get around without resorting to serious cheese. Caster early entry tricks only apply to a finite and fairly small subset of prestige classes; those that require the ability to cast spells of a given level that don't have any of the other requirements set to a level where that level of spell normally applies, e.g. a class that requires 3rd level spells that -doesn't- have a skill rank requirement of 8 ranks in one or another skill. Even then the early entry tricks are all pretty feat intensive and restrict the build in feat selection, unless flaws are included in your game.


I'm not sure how requiring trainers for prc's turned into demanding like I'm some tyrant. I like the idea of trainers and it gives the players more npc's they can form a strong bond with that can then create good stories. Can people train themselves? For some prc's, but the idea that everyone in a prc is self taught strikes me as not only a missed opportunity, but also a bit silly. Still, for some prc's I've allowed it, just depends on what it is.

It's more an ultimatum than a demand, "Drop what you're doing and find a trainer or don't enter a PrC," but the reality of the fact that almost no one would willingly choose not to enter some PrC or other at some point and even those that would wouldn't do so with every character makes it a de facto demand; "Drop what you're doing and find a trainer the level before your PrC."


My whole complaint, although I was asking for advice originally and not actually complaining, was that given that they knew about the trainer thing as well as travel costs since before the campaign started should I give them a free ride when the players early entry for his prc is at stake. Or would have been if I hadn't suspended xp gains. In this case its their items that are at stake unless they, or I, come up with a way to give them some more cash.

They knew about the cost of travel and they knew about the trainer thing. That's not a problem in itself, even if I dislike it for the reasons I described, but could they reasonably have expected you to put the, apparently, only trainer for a PrC they want to enter on the other side of a continent? Unless you've charted out where all the PrC's trainers live (an absolutely monumental task with all the PrC's out there) and handed out copies of that chart before character creation then it almost certainly comes off as a bit arbitrary and causes a problem they couldn't have anticipated.

I know I'd be more than a little perturbed.


No worries about being confrontational to me, but no hard feelings I hope.

It's the internet. No sense in getting too riled up over it.

[Oko and Qailee]

Can't they walk? I mean they'd get lots of adventures on the way, and if it's across the continent then walking would be optimal. And very cost efficient, also the DM has lots of opportunity for side quests that way.

Freaking kids these days, in my day we have to walk 5 miles and back to get to the dungeon!

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Is there any particular or compelling reason a trainer couldn't be located in Sharn itself? It is, after all, the most cosmopolitan place in all of Eberron. Combine that with the Halflings' cultural predilection for wandering and I would think it reasonably possible that a member of the tribe in question was in Sharn, by one cause or another. If you did decide that their Gather Information checks yield such a result, having the trainer be in some spot of trouble which your adventurers could help them out of is a simple enough hook, if there needs to be one.

[prufock]

Skill rank, BAB, and base saving throw bonus requirements are -very- difficult to get around without resorting to serious cheese.

Base attack and saves, yes; two feats can give you a bonus skill rank, though, and get you into a PrC a level early. Favored + Primary Contact in Cityscape. However it can only apply to one skill, so it only works if you have one skill req higher than the others.

I'm on the "flavour is malleable" side of the coin; classes are just collections of abilities you have. Joining an organization is more of an RP thing though.

[Slipperychicken]

Freaking kids these days, in my day we have to walk 5 miles and back to get to the dungeon!

Uphill both ways through 10ft-deep snow! And we liked it!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Base attack and saves, yes; two feats can give you a bonus skill rank, though, and get you into a PrC a level early. Favored + Primary Contact in Cityscape. However it can only apply to one skill, so it only works if you have one skill req higher than the others.

I'm on the "flavour is malleable" side of the coin; classes are just collections of abilities you have. Joining an organization is more of an RP thing though.

Two feats that add virtually nothing to the character is a steeper price than most are willing to pay and even moreso when it's a caster that's also got to drop at least one more, if not two or even three, feats to get his spell level up to snuff as well or a mundane that needs -every- feat to do his thing and probably still doesn't have enough feats.

As one might expect, the only unquestionably non-cheesy method simply isn't worth the steep opportunity cost in the vast majority of cases.

I do agree with the idea that flavor is malleable but only up to a point. That point varies with the thing being refluffed but it's almost always there.

[Urpriest]

To echo Kelb a bit (but trying to be a little friendlier about it, since I'm regretting starting this derail), the point of requiring trainers is to enhance the story, right? So why not build the trainer into the story? Where do they actually have to go next, and why can't there be a Dervish trainer on the way there?

[Zweisteine]

Or give them a mission to guard a retired Dervish!

Or, better yet, go on a side quest to earn travel money! Seriously. If they get enough experience to level up, let them wait if they want.

[AntiTrust]

They knew about the cost of travel and they knew about the trainer thing. That's not a problem in itself, even if I dislike it for the reasons I described, but could they reasonably have expected you to put the, apparently, only trainer for a PrC they want to enter on the other side of a continent? Unless you've charted out where all the PrC's trainers live (an absolutely monumental task with all the PrC's out there) and handed out copies of that chart before character creation then it almost certainly comes off as a bit arbitrary and causes a problem they couldn't have anticipated.

I know I'd be more than a little perturbed.

I simply asked the players in advance if they had an idea of what prc's they were interested in. All, but one knew so I had them planned out in advance. The player wanting to get into dervish has in game known it was a talenta halfling tribe for about 2/3 levels.



To echo Kelb a bit (but trying to be a little friendlier about it, since I'm regretting starting this derail), the point of requiring trainers is to enhance the story, right? So why not build the trainer into the story? Where do they actually have to go next, and why can't there be a Dervish trainer on the way there?

The group is between adventures and the next major adventure I have setup involves the the deserts touching the endworld mountains. The point of putting the trainer as a member of the halflings was to lure them there to start it. So I'm not against putting them into the story, but if X prc is what you want, its in your best interest to save the funds to get there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In that case we're back to where we started. They brought this on themselves, let them figure out how to fix it.

If one of them thinks of doing a side-quest and they all agree then give them a side-quest, this time. If they come up with something else, go with that. Just don't make any particular solution for this problem the go-to solution that works every time. It's not your job to teach them or their characters fiscal responsibility and most of the things they're likely to think of will result in not-insignificant danger to themselves or will be as trivial as travel ought to be and probably won't require more than a few die rolls, if that.

[shadow_archmagi]

I definitely see the merits of giving them a sidequest, but doesn't anyone else think that just encourages them to always just spend all their cash?

I imagine them thinking

"I can either defer buying X item to save for a ride on the lightning rail OR I can buy it now and then do a sidequest where I'll get XP, and at least enough money for the ride if not even more. Why would I ever save?"

Is it important to you that they save money? Is this game a convoluted economics lesson to you?

That said, do whatever seems the most fun to you. Walking might be fun. Getting hired on as caravan guards might fun. Maybe having the "how do we get there" conversation isn't fun for you, so you have a wizard leap out of the shrubs and cast teleport on them.

[Xintas]

I hate to say it but I think we have gotten a bit off topic here. We have a few givens that we need to take into account:

1. The PCs are out of money
2. The PCs have decided to go to a far away place that they knew they would need to go to
3. The place they have decided to go is a place that they need to go for the story (argue all you want about this, but if the only trainer in the world for the dervish style is on the other side of the continent, its story related if the PC wants to be a dervish).

Given that criteria, it becomes the goal of the PCs to get there, right? If the goal is "Kill the BBEG", we wouldn't be berating this guy for making them do a quest to get the macguffin of BBEG slaying first, would we? I do not see how this is any different. Do a quest, get what you need to complete some goal. He hasn't said "they are out of money so adventure over". That would be the "economics sim" that people keep referencing. These are adventurers, not investment firms. That being said, if you are broke and need to get someplace, you need to get money, stow away, or talk to the shady wizard who just wants a favor.

Anyone saying that he should give them free passage is viewing this too much as a video game for my personal tastes. D&D to me is a fantasy world that the players inhabit, not a series of monsters to kill with loot at regular intervals. I don't know the last time you got a free plane ticket cross country because you wanted to learn to become a pastry chef, but I find that is not how life works, and I wouldn't coddle my players like that.

[Segev]

I'm going to be agreeing with several other posters, but I'll just lay out what I would do if I were DMing this party under these conditions.

I'd ask them, "how do you plan to get there?"

Let them throw out ideas. If you have some obvious suggestions, either go ahead and make them or ask for Intelligence checks and give them to the highest result.

The most straight-forward option, to me, is simply to travel it on foot. They have no money? That's fine; they probably have a Cleric who can cast Create Food and Water, and if not, they probably have warrior-types (maybe even with Survival as a skill?) to hunt for food. They'll have encounters, and you can populate the next village and city or few with potential adventures for them to do.

It's not a matter of handing them a side quest on a silver platter so much as it is the rule of narrative: they're adventurers, and they'll always find something adventurous when they go to new or unusual places.

Remind the player who's desperate for training that he need not level up until he's got enough exp to level twice, and then take a look, yourself, at Eberron as a setting and as a specialized set of game mechanics. Does it have rules for "donating" exp to others' crafting (or other) efforts?

If so, the PC looking to get into a PrC with his next level could earn some decent coin by selling his time and spiritual essence (experience points) to a wealthy caster. That money could accelerate their journey, or go for more equipment to make them all the readier for the next adventure along the way.

If not, then he can probably choose to simply lose excess exp, but this could get frustrating fast.

As DM, I would try to schedule and plan the side quests (or even "main" quests) along the route such that the party should earn just under what they need to gain the next two levels, thus making the guy seeking the PrC have to lag behind a level for a bit and maybe squander a bit of his exp if his being lower level gives him more exp than his compatriots. But not too much. Just a little.

If he puts particular effort into continuing to seek out a teacher, and you feel it's taking too long, you could always have one or more side quests feature a member of that tribe being down in the area to which they've gone. Whether it's a hollow rumor, or true but the halfling in question doesn't know the secrets to teach, or it's actually true and he has a chance to find his mentor right here and now...that's up to you and your pacing concerns.

But ask them how they plan to get there. If they decide selling items for fast transport is their favorite option, that's their business. If they decide to steal, stow away on, or get hired as security for some method of faster or safer transport, that's valid, too. If they haven't thought of it, remind them that "walking" is an option.


As a side note, though: if you pay attention to how much gp a PC should win over the course of playing the game, per the rules on loot-drops and CR of encounters and how many encounters it should take to level up, then you will notice that this value is higher than the WBL on the chart. The WBL chart is meant to indicate how much wealth they should have by a given level. This number assumes a certain amount of the loot being blown on consumable items and "goods and services" such as fast transit across the continent.

So don't be TOO afraid of giving them as much as 10% more wealth than the WBL chart says, as long as they're spending something on consumables/services.

That said, they have plenty of options. Selling items for legit fast transit is one. Walking is another. Stealing or stowing away or getting hired as security on a more rapid means of transport is still a third. I'm sure there are ohters that I'm not thinking of. But ask them how they plan to get there. Be encouraging by going over, with them, what you think is likely to happen and how long it will take and how much of it would be downtime.

[Urpriest]

If the trainer is actually along the intended path of the story, then you've actually got a pretty good situation on your hands. You want the players to go to the Talenta Plains, they want to go to the Talenta Plains...

I agree with the others. See what your players come up with, what sorts of plans they want to use. If they run out of ideas, then throw them a bone: perhaps a wise old halfling Dervish is heading home and needs some guards, perhaps someone from Orien has a problem they need solving, etc.

[AMFV]

If the trainer is actually along the intended path of the story, then you've actually got a pretty good situation on your hands. You want the players to go to the Talenta Plains, they want to go to the Talenta Plains...

I agree with the others. See what your players come up with, what sorts of plans they want to use. If they run out of ideas, then throw them a bone: perhaps a wise old halfling Dervish is heading home and needs some guards, perhaps someone from Orien has a problem they need solving, etc.

This, you could just have the walking part happen and skip past it, just let them know that it took months of time and was largely uneventful.

[Rastapopolos]

I definatly think you should make your players come up with thier own plan to get across the continent. Deus-ex-ing them there would irk me in a game, as it removes consequences from thier actions. Having them do a quest or somehow other earn the money is far more preferable.

However, As your houseruleing that he need a trainer to PrC (i have no problem with this BTW) and you've put the entire partys progression on hiatus until one of them gets there (essently behind a pay-wall), of course theyre not going to want to run quests as it will feel like "wasted" XP (i know your saving it but do they?), theyre not going to want to walk across the continent because depending on how you play it they could get 5-6 levels worth of stored xp by the time they get there (and do you really want that big of a power jump essentially from one of them talking to a halfling?).

What I would do in this situation is immediatly tell your party that they will re-start gaining class levels and XP as normal and award them all the stored XP (no one likes not getting rewarded for thier hard work, especially because of someone else) and at the same time let the wannabe dervish player know that when he meets the halfling that you will be using the retraining rules in PHB2 to let him swap out his unwanted base class levels for dervish ones at no cost when he gets there. Now they have all the time in the world to work for the cash/maguffin to get them there but it doesnt negate the fact that theyve essentially left themselves destitute from buying shinys...

EDIT- also to consider is what happens the next time one of your players wants to PrC? If you deus-ex the dervish to his trainer the other players will feel cheated if you dont do the same with them, youve also expressed concerns that they will "drop everything" in order to find a trainer so they can PrC when they want, I feel that giving them free retraining whenever they take a new PrC is the most elegant but whatever floats your airship...

[Vanitas]

You should just remind your players that they need to come up with the money themselves. I'm surprised their first idea was to sell stuff, really. How did they get to 5th level if they can't make 500ish gp in a few hours? :smallconfused:

[Knaight]

I'm coming down with the majority here. Something to the effect of "The ticket's 500 gp, figure it out" pretty much covers things.

[Vaz]

Makes me feel a little the opposite. That players are so overly concerned with getting into a prc the exact moment the guides online tell them they should to optimize their build that they are willing to drop whatever they were doing in order to pursue it. While at the same time not saving any money to make trips to these places.

Of course you're right about the RAW not requiring meeting anyone to get into a prc in most cases, but the DMG also says prcs are "purely optional" and yet so much focus is put into not just getting into them, but getting into them at breakneck speeds.

Alas I feel I'm in the minority in thinking this way hence why I just postponed giving out xp until the player can make it in the time frame he wants.

Eh, sack that. Just allow retraining. Say that they can keep gaining XP, but he can reallocate earlier on, provided he meets the prerequisites.

[drack]

I'm not sure how requiring trainers for prc's turned into demanding like I'm some tyrant. I like the idea of trainers and it gives the players more npc's they can form a strong bond with that can then create good stories. Can people train themselves? For some prc's, but the idea that everyone in a prc is self taught strikes me as not only a missed opportunity, but also a bit silly. Still, for some prc's I've allowed it, just depends on what it is.

This is stated in the DMG as a suggestion to make gaining PRCs more flavorful. For characters going out of their way to find more exotic techniques to add to their own I happen to find it to be wonderful fluff and much prefer it. Alternativly there are characters like archers who often end up multiclassing quite a bit to progress at all. I once made one that took a new class every level or two since support for archery is a bit spread out, in which case I'd advise you consider it all one class.

[Slipperychicken]

Eh, sack that. Just allow retraining. Say that they can keep gaining XP, but he can reallocate earlier on, provided he meets the prerequisites.

Or just count his training with the NPC as retraining for levels he already gained in other classes. This makes sense in-character, as teachers will often spend some time making their students "un-learn" inferior techniques and replace them with better ones.


A Teleport only has a price tag of 450 GP.


The "spellcasting and services" section says that PCs will most likely need to pay for the caster's return trip too (the wage-mage probably wants to get back home in time for supper), effectively doubling the cost. So it should be (450*2= 900gp) one-way, unless the PCs are returning with the caster, in which case the 900gp would get them a return trip too.


Furthermore, if a spell has dangerous consequences, the spellcaster will certainly require proof that you can and will pay for dealing with any such consequences (that is, assuming that the spellcaster even agrees to cast such a spell, which isn’t certain). In the case of spells that transport the caster and characters over a distance, you will likely have to pay for two castings of the spell, even if you aren’t returning with the caster.