If you could give a druid one domain...

[(Un)Inspired]

What would you choose? Lets say for our purposes you only got the spells from the domain and not the domain power kinda like Arcane Disciple.

On a related note, why doesn't the planning domain have contingency in it?

[eggynack]

Offhand the spell domain is a pretty fantastic choice. It covers all of the ground ever.

[Samalpetey]

Luck, perhaps? Miracle is very nice

[(Un)Inspired]

Offhand the spell domain is a pretty fantastic choice. It covers all of the ground ever.

Yeah, Anyspell is pretty hard to pass up.

[eggynack]

Indeed. If there's one problem with it though, it's that anyspell doesn't quite fill the gap in druid high level spells. Druids don't have much of a problem with spells from 0th to 5th, but the list quiets down a lot after that. You do fill a lot of holes though, which has to be the main goal here. Another problem with the domain is that you cast these spells as a wizard of your cleric level, and druids very much don't have a cleric level. I don't know how that changes things, but it can't be good. Also, while it seems like this is a theoretical thought experiment, it actually has ramifications on the actual game, as druids can access cleric domains by dipping contemplative. Domains should probably be evaluated with that in mind, with the underlying assumption that you're picking these up at level 10 or so.

[nedz]

You would, obviously, choose some domain which covers things Druids don't get.
Illusion, Trickery and Travel are good choices.

Druid 5 into Seeker of the Misty Isle gets you the Travel domain from level 6, and is a fairly organic build. You can grab the Magic domain from this PrC, if you are prepared to lose a caster level, too. The Magic domain is also a solid choice since it allows you to use Arcane spell completion items.

[(Un)Inspired]

I know that a strong ninth level spell from a domain would do wonders for a druids. I have been looking over the Druids spell list and the 9th level spells are pretty poor. They have shapechange and... well they have shapechange. At high levels of play how do Druids stand up other tiers 1s like Wizards, Clerics and Archivists?

[Brookshw]

Hard to go wrong with protection.

[eggynack]

You would, obviously, choose some domain which covers things Druids don't get.
Illusion, Trickery and Travel are good choices.

Druid 5 into Seeker of the Misty Isle gets you the Travel domain from level 6, and is a fairly organic build. You can grab the Magic domain from this PrC, if you are prepared to lose a caster level, too. The Magic domain is also a solid choice since it allows you to use Arcane spell completion items.
Travel is quite strong, though probably not the strongest option. Druids actually do get reasonable access to long distance teleportation, between stormwalk (Storm, 122), master earth (SpC, 139), and transport via plants, and they get pretty mediocre access to tactical teleportation with shuffle (Shining South, 49) and unicorn heart (CM, 121). It's worth picking up through seeker of the misty isle, particularly due to dimension door and greater teleport, but if I had other options, like with contemplative, I'd choose something else. Going through seven levels without any kind of animal companion or wild shape advancement, and one level without spell casting advancement, just seems bad though, even with the magic domain riding in the balance. Losing one level of wild shape and animal companion advancement is fine, but that many is going pretty far.


I know that a strong ninth level spell from a domain would do wonders for a druids. I have been looking over the Druids spell list and the 9th level spells are pretty poor. They have shapechange and... well they have shapechange. At high levels of play how do Druids stand up other tiers 1s like Wizards, Clerics and Archivists?
There's nothing besides shapechange, but shapechange is basically enough. It covers just about all the ground in existence, especially if you push it. Extra 9th's would be nice, but they're non-essential. I think things are worse with 6th's, 7th's, and 8th's though. Not bad, certainly, but druids aren't picking up any 8th's that are competitive with PAO, for example.

Edit: By they way, we probably should evaluate these with domain powers in mind, because contemplative grants them, as does seeker of the misty isle.

[eggynack]

Holy crap, I just noticed that the spell domain has more than two spells in it. Pretty much the entire list is awesome, filling major gaps in druidry. Limited wish is especially nice, being effectively a supreme anyspell, disjunction is a 9th that's actually good to have, and AMF is a thing of some kind. I'm not sure what the "wizard only" attached to mnemonic enhancer means, but as long as you can use it at all it makes for a strong spell, and silence and break enchantment are both pretty powerful. The only spell that's uninteresting is mage armor. This is definitely one of the best choices, and it was already way up there when there were only two spells on the list.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mage armor is actually pretty nice for a Druid, at least at middle-low levels (say, 5-10)-- it helps tide you over until you can afford Wild armor.

[Spore]

I just wanted to mention that PF druids (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/druid.html#_druid) can choose between animal companions and a complete domain including spells and spell slots.

[tadkins]

On a related note, why doesn't the planning domain have contingency in it?

Wow, that is a really good question. xD

[eggynack]

Mage armor is actually pretty nice for a Druid, at least at middle-low levels (say, 5-10)-- it helps tide you over until you can afford Wild armor.
It's not bad, but if you're getting mage armor from contemplative, and you almost certainly are, then you're getting it too late for it to be particularly relevant. Mage armor is almost certainly the least interesting item on the list, and that's not necessarily due to its low spell level, because low level spells can often do cool things at high levels.

By the way, on the topic of domains, what is the general opinion on using the spells granted by holt warden for spontaneous conversion into SNA's? Clerics have a rule against spontaneously converting domain spells, but druids lack any such rule for obvious reasons. It'd make holt warden a whole hell of a lot better. Some of those plant domain spells aren't going to see play on anywhere near a daily basis.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'd say let them do it. Druids need more options for prestige classes. I'm sick of seeing Druid 20 or planar shepherds.

[eggynack]

I'd say let them do it. Druids need more options for prestige classes. I'm sick of seeing Druid 20 or planar shepherds.
It's a pretty reasonable prestige class without that. You get a spell of every spell level, and a few of them are pretty reasonable. Quite a few of them are situational, but situational spells aren't the worst thing to have. Without conversion, it's a halfway decent class, and with it it's pretty good. I'm of the opinion that the druid 20 thing is a bit overstated. Moonspeaker and lion of talisid make for strong classes to take all the levels of, hathran is very powerful for either one or five levels, and stuff like contemplative, holt warden, seeker of the misty isle, sacred exorcist, or divine oracle make for pretty reasonable dips. Wild shape and the animal companion are great, but you can afford to lose a level of wild shape, especially if you pick up an amulet of wild shape, and advancing the animal companion is a bit on the meaningless side at high levels.

[Invader]

Travel domain is always a good choice

[nedz]

Travel is quite strong, though probably not the strongest option. Druids actually do get reasonable access to long distance teleportation, between stormwalk (Storm, 122), master earth (SpC, 139), and transport via plants, and they get pretty mediocre access to tactical teleportation with shuffle (Shining South, 49) and unicorn heart (CM, 121). It's worth picking up through seeker of the misty isle, particularly due to dimension door and greater teleport, but if I had other options, like with contemplative, I'd choose something else. Going through seven levels without any kind of animal companion or wild shape advancement, and one level without spell casting advancement, just seems bad though, even with the magic domain riding in the balance. Losing one level of wild shape and animal companion advancement is fine, but that many is going pretty far.

Fair points, but Spells > Wild Shape > Animal Companion.

If you were going Druid 5 / SotMI then you should have traded out WS and AC anyway perhaps ?

OK, the ACFs are weaker but not that much; and as a T1 caster you can probably afford the self nerf.

[Phelix-Mu]

Balance Domain! I just like it. Having dismissal and banishment feels like it's a little cheated, but I really like word of balance and weighed in the balance (though technically word of balance is already on the druid list).

For a core option, I do like the Travel Domain. Teleport and the like give a nice bit of utility, and astral projection is just fun for a class that otherwise is pretty much stuck on the Prime for much of their career.

Not the level of fun of miracle or anyspell (who would have guessed that a domain devoted to the most powerful aspect of the game would be awesome?). But I kind of like the flavor a bit more over the mechanical oomph (plus, shapechange is on the core list, and that's about enough power). Lower level anyspell access is nice, but kind of low-balling the difficulty for people with as much experience with the class as I have. But definitely the kind of tool that is hard to beat.

[eggynack]

Fair points, but Spells > Wild Shape > Animal Companion.

If you were going Druid 5 / SotMI then you should have traded out WS and AC anyway perhaps ?

OK, the ACFs are weaker but not that much; and as a T1 caster you can probably afford the self nerf.
I don't see why you'd have to do that. I mean, as I noted, what are you really losing out on by being behind a level of wild shape? You can get away with being two levels behind, like with lion of talisid, or even four levels behind, if the abilities justify it, like with moonspeaker. That's even more true of the animal companion, and I could see ditching that progression entirely in later levels. This is more levels being lost than either of those though, leaving you without huge forms unless you pick up wild shape level boosters.

Also, that level of lost spell casting is a really big deal, only justifiable if you're getting something insane. Here, it means that picking up the magic domain probably loses you casting ability, instead of getting you more. It's not necessarily just one or the other, but the combined fact that you're probably behind a normal druid in every meaningful way. You can still pick up the magic domain with contemplative though, and have it be reasonable, so it's something accessible within the bounds of optimization.

Edit: Picking up the oracle domain through divine oracle seems like it could be a strong choice. The druid list could use better divinations.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Going through seven levels without any kind of animal companion or wild shape advancement, and one level without spell casting advancement, just seems bad though, even with the magic domain riding in the balance.

I would just like to note that, according to the text of Seeker of the Misty Isle, it is a full casting class.

I'd also like to throw another recommendation in for the Spell Domain. Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Limited Wish, and Disjunction are fantastic and provide access to effects that would be tough to get otherwise. Something similar can be said of the Luck domain - access to the reality warpers (Miracle in the case of Luck) is something that offers a great deal of benefit to the Druid, and gets you those seventh level spells (and Cleric eighths) that you'd otherwise be missing.

[eggynack]

I would just like to note that, according to the text of Seeker of the Misty Isle, it is a full casting class.

True enough. I always forget to also read the text related to spellcasting advancement, because it's usually irrelevant. I'd still probably just get one level though. It's a lot of lost progression.

[(Un)Inspired]

So I have to admit that I started this thread because I've got a character that's currently Bard 2/Druid 3/Greenwhisperer 2 I'm gonna finish up Greenwhisperer and then do a single level of sublime chord followed by Fochlucan lyrist. I could take arcane disciple for sublime chord side and since I'm a Druid my wis is gonna be high enough to make the spells actually useful...

[nedz]

I don't see why you'd have to do that. I mean, as I noted, what are you really losing out on by being behind a level of wild shape? You can get away with being two levels behind, like with lion of talisid, or even four levels behind, if the abilities justify it, like with moonspeaker. That's even more true of the animal companion, and I could see ditching that progression entirely in later levels. This is more levels being lost than either of those though, leaving you without huge forms unless you pick up wild shape level boosters.

Also, that level of lost spell casting is a really big deal, only justifiable if you're getting something insane. Here, it means that picking up the magic domain probably loses you casting ability, instead of getting you more. It's not necessarily just one or the other, but the combined fact that you're probably behind a normal druid in every meaningful way. You can still pick up the magic domain with contemplative though, and have it be reasonable, so it's something accessible within the bounds of optimization.

Edit: Picking up the oracle domain through divine oracle seems like it could be a strong choice. The druid list could use better divinations.

Well the Magic domain granted power is very useful, but it is a question of choices.

Divine Oracle is a very good 2 (or maybe 3) level dip. But it's quite hard to get into for a Druid because of the skill requirement. SotMI would help here and Travel + Oracle domains would open up scry and die.

[eggynack]

Divine Oracle is a very good 2 (or maybe 3) level dip. But it's quite hard to get into for a Druid because of the skill requirement. SotMI would help here and Travel + Oracle domains would open up scry and die.
It is a tricky requirement to fill, and it comes up quite a bit. The one for contemplative is even more difficult, though the benefit there is obviously amazing. I figure there are reasonable PrC's that can pick it up, including SotMI, but also holt warden, which is neat. There's also the feat path, where you get it through something like knowledge devotion or education. As for picking up several levels of divine oracle, it seems decent, though I once again tend towards just picking up a level for the expanded spell list. I'll have to figure out the actual number of druid thing advancement levels you can ditch without it becoming problematic. The feat cost might be prohibitive for a couple of these crazy dip plans though, especially with how crazy some druid feats are.

[nedz]

So I have to admit that I started this thread because I've got a character that's currently Bard 2/Druid 3/Greenwhisperer 2 I'm gonna finish up Greenwhisperer and then do a single level of sublime chord followed by Fochlucan lyrist. I could take arcane disciple for sublime chord side and since I'm a Druid my wis is gonna be high enough to make the spells actually useful...

So you want the domains for the Arcane side, via AD, rather than for the Druid ? The hard part is finding a suitable patron deity, which AD requires.

[(Un)Inspired]

So you want the domains for the Arcane side, via AD, rather than for the Druid ? The hard part is finding a suitable patron deity, which AD requires.

The patron deity isn't gonna be an issue but I'm just thinking about which domain spells would back up Druid spells well.

[Ramza00]

Druid can uses Domain Staffs right?

[eggynack]

Druid can uses Domain Staffs right?
I don't see why not. It's pretty expensive, but there's nothing stopping you from doing that.

[(Un)Inspired]

Pardon my ignorance but what is a domain staff?

[eggynack]

Pardon my ignorance but what is a domain staff?
It's a set of staffs, starting on page 143 of complete champion. The grant once/day access to each spell from a given domain, and let you trade your prepared spells of equal level or higher for them. Only death, nobility, healing, and war are listed, but you can explicitly make one for any domain, and they go for 36,000 GP.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's a set of staffs, starting on page 143 of complete champion. The grant once/day access to each spell from a given domain, and let you trade your prepared spells of equal level or higher for them. Only death, nobility, healing, and war are listed, but you can explicitly make one for any domain, and they go for 36,000 GP.

Pricing the staff for each domain regardless of what spells it might provide sounds pretty freaking stupid and ripe for abuse.

[Phelix-Mu]

Pricing the staff for each domain regardless of what spells it might provide sounds pretty freaking stupid and ripe for abuse.

Ditto. I have no problem with a huge rule set, but they definitely have a tendency to draw some nice lines, and then later get out the spray paint and go all graffiti-happy.

[eggynack]

Pricing the staff for each domain regardless of what spells it might provide sounds pretty freaking stupid and ripe for abuse.
I suppose, though if you're going to make the assumption that two things are balanced in one part of the game, then there's some assumption that they should be priced the same way in another part of the game.