Help a Player to help a DM to help a game

[metalith]

So pretty much my last game session was ruined by a rules debate that pretty much ate the entire evening.

Our DM is wanting to enforce a ruling that if you don't know a creatures alignment, any alignment based spells will not work on them. He is wanting to make the Detect X spells more important and even looks like he is wanting to put into play with other spells that affect type as well.

So that +3 Axiomatic Long sword would not deal the addition 2d6 since the character doesn't know that what he is fighting is chaotic that Righteous Smite spell, you don't know if they're evil. No affect. But NPCs would be freely able use alignment or type affecting spells against us with impunity. So it devolved from there.

Determining type is easier since knowledge checks can deal with that, but

I have no issue with trying to make Detect X Spells more important part of the gaming experience but to sit around 3 rounds of combat in order to determine what is evil, good, lawful, chaotic, etc... is punitively punishing to combat. Especially since a lot of the cleric's best protection and blast spells are aligned to that end.

Any suggestions, mechanics, rules, anything you guys have to offer would be appreciated.

[Zman]

Talk to your DM. Put forth the concerns you've outlined here. If they are a good DM, they will be reasonable and see the negative impact on the game. If they are a poor Adam they'll smite you, if that is the case push for a new DM.

[Bigbeefie]

So pretty much my last game session was ruined by a rules debate that pretty much ate the entire evening.

Our DM is wanting to enforce a ruling that if you don't know a creatures alignment, any alignment based spells will not work on them. He is wanting to make the Detect X spells more important and even looks like he is wanting to put into play with other spells that affect type as well.

So that +3 Axiomatic Long sword would not deal the addition 2d6 since the character doesn't know that what he is fighting is chaotic that Righteous Smite spell, you don't know if they're evil. No affect. But NPCs would be freely able use alignment or type affecting spells against us with impunity. So it devolved from there.

Determining type is easier since knowledge checks can deal with that, but

I have no issue with trying to make Detect X Spells more important part of the gaming experience but to sit around 3 rounds of combat in order to determine what is evil, good, lawful, chaotic, etc... is punitively punishing to combat. Especially since a lot of the cleric's best protection and blast spells are aligned to that end.

Any suggestions, mechanics, rules, anything you guys have to offer would be appreciated.

The detect spells require 3 rounds of concentration to determine "How" evil something is. Like the first round you can tell hey that evil or chaotic. By round 3 you can determine how strong of evil it is and where to pinpoint it exactly.
Lets say you have a door that is 1 inch thick and on the other side you have an undead lich. You can detect evil....first round you know something evil is on the other side of that door but you cant "pinpoint it" yet. 2nd round you can focus down to see kind of like an outline, and then 3rd round you now can determine how strong the Aura of Evil really is. The spell give exact strengths in it as overhelming, minor, major, and will also give you a clue on what kind of evil is on the other side of the door. By round 3 you should know where in the room he is standing, and that he is an undead (based on aura). That is about it.

Now as far as Holy, Axiomatic, Alignment based enchantments. They are ALWAYS in effect. Just like if you draw your Flaming weapon the flaming property does not go away. So techniqually if you hit a Evil outsider with a Holy weapon wether or not you know they are evil does not matter. The enchantment still works.......BUT

Here is where your DM has leeway. He can choose to allow you to see your enchantment work or he can secretly roll the extra d6s and add it on not letting you know if it worked on him or not but the enchantment is always active. This is based on DM discretion if he wants to let you know if that holy enchant was working him. You don't actually see a holy explosion every time you hit a evil creature....it just kinda hits a lot harder with the same effort you normally swing your sword with.

As far as not being able to cast a spell that targets an Alignment....you can target whom ever you want with it when ever you want....BUT did it do maximum effect? Who knows for sure BUT the DM. He can roll the extra damage if it does or he can tell you the spell hit him and seemed to not do much. But if by chance you target the right person with the Alignment based spell like Holy Word you should see the full effect of the spell because your character knows what the spell is suppose to do.


BUT lastly the DM is GOD......he can change the rules based on his mood if he wishes it. Its just a good idea to discuss the rulings and if he chooses to change it how he wants it and you don't like it you can leave the group or just deal with it. My DMs will go by the rules and if the rules are unclear we take a House vote on how we are further going to handle this said ruling so everyone gets a vote and opinion on the matter. But we aren't to argue with the DM. Just say hey I found this ruling....give the source for him to read over it and boom he usually fixes it on the spot.

[Pickford]

Does that also mean damage reduction still works as long as you don't know if your opponents weapons are magic?

Did you put forth the argument: "That won't be fun."?

Two suggestions.
First suggestion is that the players and the DM get together and explain what they do or don't like about the ruling. Try to keep an open mind.

If the DM refuses to rescind this houserule, suggestion two is to eschew anything that functions off alignment. Get an amulet of undetectable alignment and go hog-wild being evil/good as your heart desires.