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Kaun
2014-01-12, 08:49 PM
I was reading one of the other threads when a remark some one made got me thinking about one of the old frequently asked rpg conundrums;

...Powerful NPC ask's PC's to retrieve an item in exchange for coin/favor...

Many times have i had my players asked or i have read threads asking or i have contemplated myself.... if this guy is so powerful why doesn't he just magic his way over to that dungeon, blast out the bad guys and get the thing himself.

And for some reason it is only today that i realized... the amount of things i pay other people to do in RL that i could do myself, why is this even a concept that seems at all weird?

Lawn mowing people and fast food chains would be out of business.


Anyway, this may not be a quite the revelation to others that it was to me.


If you have any other weird reoccurring rpg oddities/tropes that are often questioned but can be easily explained when analyzed rationally please post them up.

No doubt there are others.

lianightdemon
2014-01-12, 08:59 PM
Time

Sure he could go do it himself, but he is likely doing something more important at his level. Like magic item creation, or magical research, or training. He may also not be very thrill seeking as adventurers and despite his power may not know how to properly use it in a dungeon or combat situation. An example of this was at a larp I played, were there was an npc who was an Archmage and the Guildmistress of the local mages guild. However she used her magic for everyday conveniences and wouldn't dare going into a dungeon or even into combat. She had the adventurers do many things for the Mages guild, despite how grumpy it made many of them. (She also turned out to be corrupt and was stealing magical powers from other mages using a potent artifact, but that didn't come up until 3 years (real time) after she was introduced.)

Just like in real life we are limited to what we know how to do, and what we feel comfortable doing. Sure you could grow your own food, cook your own meals, do your own repairs, but it requires a lot of time. Going to a fastfood place lets you get a meal for 5-10 dollars in 5 minutes or less. You can do this at any hour of the day (except during a power outage)

kieza
2014-01-12, 09:34 PM
Because there are tons of things like that that need his attention. On any given day, an archmage is trying to find several lost artifacts, get a copy of several promising new spells, deal with orcs and demons and undead popping up in spots all over the continent, construct a new legendary sword for the king he's supporting, teach a half-dozen apprentices, and still find time to watch his favorite show on the crystal ball in the evening. He can only be in one place at a time, so he picks the most important thing to do and sends adventurers to do everything else.

Incanur
2014-01-12, 10:31 PM
It could also be a matter of laziness, convenience, and/or caution. For example, in the last campaign I ran, the party received quests from an illusionist who - while certainly busy enough with diplomatic engagements - simply dislikes combat, danger, and dirt. While theoretically more powerful - i.e. higher level - this character has no desire to undergo the hardships the party routinely faces.

Red Fel
2014-01-12, 10:33 PM
Shadowrun is the iconic example of this, for me. A powerful NPC hires the PCs to do something. And by powerful, I mean powerful - this guy could buy a dozen people exactly like my PC a dozen times over, and have barely touched his spending account. So why doesn't he do it himself?

Because he can't. In Shadowrun, the reason NPCs hire the PCs is that the NPCs are visible, simply by nature of the very power they wield. Everyone knows that these guys do incredibly illegal stuff (namely, what they pay PCs to do) but that they can't be seen doing it themselves. So they pay the stooges PCs to do it for them, and ensure that it can't be traced back to them. Either the job will be done, or it won't be because some nameless criminal underlings (again, the PCs) got killed. Either way, it never comes home to roost.

In a more fantasy-oriented version of the trope, perhaps the questgiver is playing a Xanatos gambit. Perhaps he plans for the PCs to fail, making him look good, or if they succeed, he can have them killed - either way, it's vitally important that the task be performed by a bunch of strangers or nobodies who won't be trusted, or missed.

Or perhaps the questgiver has some valuable insight, and knows that not only must the task be done, but it must be the PCs to do it (think "Chosen One" syndrome). In that case, it won't work unless the PCs do it, so he sends them to do it, even if he could probably do it himself.

You know. Reasons.

NikitaDarkstar
2014-01-12, 10:48 PM
The archmage is working on other projects, and while it would be nice to have that magical artifact right now he also doesn't feel like ruining several months of hard work he's put in on crafting a new magical item. Either the adventurers he hired succeed, or the thing stays lost for a few more months, because, lets face it, those dirty old ruins have some serious traps in it, and if no one has reached it for centuries it can probably wait a while.

The King is obviously busy running a country, his generals and soldiers can't just run off and leave chunks of territory unprotected and the spymaster is busy actually collecting information.

The guildmaster? Are you kidding? He worked had to get to where he's at right now to NOT have to deal with stuff like that! He's in charge, you're not, and that's why YOU are doing it and he isn't!

The High Priest? Well yes, he could, but if he left to go and do it, who would lead the daily activities of the temple, and protect the community in case something happens?

Slipperychicken
2014-01-13, 12:02 AM
And for some reason it is only today that i realized... the amount of things i pay other people to do in RL that i could do myself, why is this even a concept that seems at all weird?


I know that I place some value on my time. While I certainly could prepare all my own meals, wash my dishes, and mow my lawn, I don't for several reasons:

I don't want to do it.
Someone else can do it better than me.
I would rather do something else instead.


Those reasons could help explain the NPCs.

Kid Jake
2014-01-13, 12:10 AM
And for some reason it is only today that i realized... the amount of things i pay other people to do in RL that i could do myself, why is this even a concept that seems at all weird?

This is usually my attitude towards powerful NPCs handing out quests, but I think where it breaks down is when the penalty for the PCs failing is worse than a minor inconvenience. If the Ancient-And-Wise-Elf doesn't want to collect his own guano then nobody can really begrudge him. But when he just sort of pops in with his limitless mystical might and tells a group of level ones that the world's going to end in 60 days unless they slay the group of easily slayable kobolds halfway across the continent trying to summon Tiamat into the world; it seems like that'd be something he'd want to see done with his own eyes.

Although now I kind of want to put together an epic wizard that creates end of the world scenarios to run random groups of newbie adventurers through like some sort of hazing.

Jay R
2014-01-13, 12:34 AM
NPC: “I want you to go to the black swamps of Telgar to investigate why people are disappearing there.”
PC: “Don’t you have a squad of extremely powerful ninjas rumored to be the best in the world at that sort of spying?”
NPC: “Yes. I’m sending you in to investigate what happened to them.”

—————————–

In a Flashing Blades campaign, I had Richelieu invent a series of missions that took the party all over Europe because, while their success rate was excellent, the collateral damage was too high (chateaus set on fire to erase clues, riots begun to distract the authorities, etc.). Richelieu finally concluded that he wanted that level of chaos and destruction to take place elsewhere than France.

————————–

The characters are hired by a Great White Wizard to sneak into the Black Mage’s castle to steal the Ruby of Power in his throne that is the source of his power. After they go through the traps, monsters and other dangers outside, they have to make their way through the guards and castle traps, finally arriving at the treasure vault, to find the Great White Wizard calmly sitting and holding the ruby.
PC: “If you were coming here, why did you hire us?”
GWW: “To take all the risks, of course. Once the Black Mage’s full attention was bent on killing you, I had no trouble slipping in.”
PC: “Why didn’t you at least tell us?”
GWW: “Because the Black Mage can read lower-level minds. Why do you think you wound up facing every minion he had?”

Mr. Mask
2014-01-13, 01:42 AM
The powerful NPC might not realize he is hiring the PCs. He tells an underling, "see to it that this thing is done." The underling looks to mercs to get the job done, and the PCs seem up to the task.

Erik Vale
2014-01-13, 01:50 AM
The characters are hired by a Great White Wizard to sneak into the Black Mage’s castle to steal the Ruby of Power in his throne that is the source of his power. After they go through the traps, monsters and other dangers outside, they have to make their way through the guards and castle traps, finally arriving at the treasure vault, to find the Great White Wizard calmly sitting and holding the ruby.
PC: “If you were coming here, why did you hire us?”
GWW: “To take all the risks, of course. Once the Black Mage’s full attention was bent on killing you, I had no trouble slipping in.”
PC: “Why didn’t you at least tell us?”
GWW: “Because the Black Mage can read lower-level minds. Why do you think you wound up facing every minion he had?”

*Adds this to list of things to do for his game*


Although now I kind of want to put together an epic wizard that creates end of the world scenarios to run random groups of newbie adventurers through like some sort of hazing.

Yep. That's being used, somewhere, somehow, just cause.
Additional thought, perhaps the groups eventually find out he's a baddy and try to kill him, now he's instead creating challenges he can gain xp from to level to gain his new x or make item y.

Kelb_Panthera
2014-01-13, 02:13 AM
I like the explanation given on page 84 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign manual for 3rd edition D&D.


First, it is not at all certain that those of us with the power or the inclination can even accomplish a tenth of the deeds asked of us. The forces arrayed against us are dark and strong indeed...

Second, the wise amongst us know that even the gods can't foresee all the consequences of their actions -- and all of us have sen far too man instances of good things turning out to cause something very bad or unwanted. We've learned that the meddling often does more harm than good.

Third, few folks can agree on what is right, what should be done, and what the best end result would be. When ye consider a mighty stroke, be assured that every move is apt to be countered by someone who doesn't like the intended result, is determined to stop it, and is quite prepared to lay waste to you, your kingdom, and anything else necessary to confound you.

Fourth, big changes can seldom be affected by small actions. How much work does it take just to build one house? Rearrange one room? How many simple little actions, then, will it take to destroy one kingdom and raise another in its place?

Finally: D'ye think we "mighty ones" are blind? Do we not watch each other and guess at what each is doing and reach out and do some little thing that hampers the aims of another great and mighty? We'll never be free of this problem and that's a good thing.

In summation; there's simply too much for any one power house character to do in the time they have if they're to do these things and stand against their powerful enemies as well. Micro-managing all of the territory within their sphere of influence would leave most such characters horrendously vulnerable to being struck down by their less beneficent counterparts that influence the same sphere.

It -does- make no sense for them to sit idly by in the face of continent and world level threats but even in the face of such things they still have to move carefully enough to avoid leaving themselves too exposed to their enemies while they work.

NikitaDarkstar
2014-01-13, 02:28 AM
There's also always the option of the powerful npc's do in fact try to do something about world level threats. The PC's see a bunch of kobolds trying to summon Tiamat and rush to stop it. The arch wizard sees it and contemplates what made the kobolds do it. Are they under some external influence? If so who, why, what and for how long? And starts to work on that. Of course it will turn out there's far more players involved than any one individual can deal with so he gets the pc's to keep helping him, and to avoid drawing unwanted attention to himself he lets the pc's have he spot-light while he works of to the side on "smaller" things.

But on the other hand, once you've made it clear that there's a world-level threat going on it should be the PC's stopping them because they're the only ones who are powerful enough to do it.

Mr. Mask
2014-01-13, 02:32 AM
If you're going with a world-destroying threat, the logical conclusion is that the best people available are used for a few-man mission, or as many people as you can get are used (including full-blown armies whenever possible).

The amount of trouble they go to depends on how willing they are to invest in solving the problem.

Lord Raziere
2014-01-13, 02:46 AM
"Because I only have so many spells per day and I'm going to spend the rest of my spells on things more important, thank you. kids these days, tell them that your an archmage and they think your power is limitless, what balderdash..."

icefractal
2014-01-13, 04:33 AM
First off, people can be rich, and powerful in some ways, without possessing huge capacity in the same realm as the PCs. For example, a king. He's certainly not going into the Tomb of Hilarious Death himself, his bodyguards are needed to protect him (and are probably very specialized, so not actually that effective against traps and such), and his army is large but no single person in it is very powerful, and the Tomb's passages are too narrow for numbers to be much help. But what he does have is lots of money, so he hires some specialists - the PCs.

As for actual "end of the world" stuff - the PCs should not, in fact, be fighting it alone, unless they are actually the most capable people in the world. However, if the event is big enough, the PCs can definitely be involved.
Sage: You must go and destroy the Obsidian Door, so that the destroyer of minds cannot be summoned.
PCs: Why don't you do it?
Sage: Because I'm going to be fighting the Clockwork Emperor's army, who are already marching to raze the surface world. It's a busy apocalypse, everybody's got to do their part.

In that case, I would actually have a specific important thing that the NPC is doing. Not just "vague things of great importance", because that makes the PCs feel like minions.

This does mean that the PCs are probably not going to be pivotal in saving the world at like, 3rd level. IMO, that's fine - the point of even having a level system is that you can move on to greater things as you advance. If you were already saving the world at low-level, what are you supposed to do for a follow-up?

NikitaDarkstar
2014-01-13, 04:45 AM
If you were already saving the world at low-level, what are you supposed to do for a follow-up?

Save the universe! And then later possibly the multiverse. Or become gods. Or all of the above! :p

Excession
2014-01-13, 05:37 AM
The PCs are disposable. Getting a bunch of soldiers killed is bad for morale, you have to pay pensions to their widows, get bad press, recruit more soldiers. The PCs are a bunch of outsiders that nobody knows, and you only need to pay them if they succeed.

Mastikator
2014-01-13, 10:30 AM
Division and specialization of labor, the powerful NPC is good at one task, that task isn't the task that the PCs are good at. Not all tasks can be brute forced with more dakka, not all powerful NPCs have power in the form of dakka.

Basically, the same reason I eat out at lunch when I'm at work rather than brining food, it's more cost effective if I buy it than if I make it.

Kogak
2014-01-13, 10:44 AM
Although now I kind of want to put together an epic wizard that creates end of the world scenarios to run random groups of newbie adventurers through like some sort of hazing.

I had a gnomish necromancer that hung around with a half-dragon giant (NPC, so it could eat the LA for kicks and giggles). Both had a decidedly chaotic bent and would randomly teleport to two groups of adventurers. Tell one group "These guys carry a powerful weapon of chaos/evil and seek to slay this town", then go to the other and inform them of the 'assassins' out to get them. Why? Because the little fellow had a high enough bluff, a disposable income and was left unattended for 40 minutes.

Sometimes, your great quest to save the world is just somebody else's form of entertainment. Sense motive is a great thing.

GungHo
2014-01-13, 10:51 AM
Do people ask their bosses at work why they don't file their own reports?

shadow_archmagi
2014-01-13, 11:18 AM
Most questgivers tend to be people of societal importance- Kings and Archclerics and whatnot. Now, because authority and competence are always directly linked, the king could lead an expedition to retrieve the Lost Scepter of Cigam, but that would leave his nation short one king.

Imagine if your real-world nation's leaders went off to fight wars personally using their Iron Man suits. (all world leaders have these). Sure, it'd be cool, but then who would pass airline rerouting bills?

ElenionAncalima
2014-01-13, 11:32 AM
Many people who aim to aquire power and wealth, do it so they don't have to do the grunt labor associated with getting what they want.

Does the wizard want that shiny +5 relic of historicalness?
...Yes. He already has a spot ready in his personal museum.

Could he travel there and obliterate everything in the dungeon without any trouble?
...Of course. Why would you even ask that?

Is it easier for him to just throw gold in the direction of some low level suckers?
...Absolutley. He's busy. His soon to be award winning thesis on breeding owls with bears isn't going to write itself.

In short, you don't need a reason why they can't do it. You just need to explain why they wouldn't want to.

Driderman
2014-01-13, 11:52 AM
He or she probably prefers not to muck around in dank crypts, sleep on the ground and risk all sorts of encounters with nasties. And hey, some random PCs are ready to do the dirty work for him! :smallbiggrin:

Frozen_Feet
2014-01-13, 12:22 PM
Because he has gullible patsies to do for it him. Seriously people. Leaders have minions for a reason. It's not economical to do every little thing by yourself.

It might also be a matter of teaching new crew members etc.. How will you ever get more useful people if you never let the trainees do anything, huh?

Jay R
2014-01-13, 12:34 PM
The correct NPC response to questions like this from the PCs is:

"Do you want the gold or not?"

Incanur
2014-01-13, 12:41 PM
Imagine if your real-world nation's leaders went off to fight wars personally using their Iron Man suits. (all world leaders have these).

This highlights the difference between our reality and 3.x D&D especially. In latter, high-level casters mechanically actually could solo the rest the world aside from their peers.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-13, 01:02 PM
Let's say you want a new computer, but the only way to get it is to kill the salesman. Now, there are no legal consequences to the deed, and the social ones balance out-- some people might judge you, but others will say "haha, awesome knife work, man." And it's not like it'd be a fair fight, either-- the salesman's got a stick, while you have body armor, grenades, and an assault rifle.

But still, could you actually make yourself shoot the guy? I couldn't. Historically, most soldiers haven't been able to either.

So you hire someone to do it for you. PCs, even Good aligned ones, are psychopaths. They don't have the slightest qualms about killing anything that stands in their way.

Amaril
2014-01-13, 01:23 PM
This highlights the difference between our reality and 3.x D&D especially. In latter, high-level casters mechanically actually could solo the rest the world aside from their peers.

This is really the problem. If we were following the assumptions of a realistic world, the idea that high-level archmagi pay PCs to do their work for them because they can't be bothered to put in the effort would make complete sense. The thing is, in D&D, the high-level archmage could literally do in twelve seconds what it would take a group of adventurers a week to accomplish, at almost no risk to themselves. The necessity of slogging through a dank, moldy dungeon to get the relic would be a perfectly sensible deterrent, but the archmage wouldn't need to do that at all--they could just scry-and-port, obliterate every hazard in the room with a single spell, grab the shiny, and pop back home in less time than it would take to explain the quest to the PCs. There really is no reason for them not to do it themselves, because nothing is difficult or time-consuming for them anymore.

Pex
2014-01-13, 01:29 PM
In a campaign once during the high level phase the party members were the People of Importance - the Duke & Pope, Wizards' Guild Headmaster, the Godfather, etc. While in our home city investigating shenanigans of the BBEG we found his minions and gave chase. They escaped into the sewers. Meanwhile, a particular crisis of another matter was happening that needed to be solved as well. We didn't have time to search the sewers. As the Duke, I hired a group of adventurers to do the stereotypical clear out the sewers adventure. I think their level was 8. If they could bring us the minions, great, but any information they could find would help, even if just where/how they left the city. I offered a nice sum for their services plus naturally they could keep any spoils (i.e. treasure) they find. It was quite thrilling to be the Patron Who Hires Adventurers for once.

Rabidmuskrat
2014-01-13, 02:38 PM
It has been said on these very forums that wizards survive to high levels by being the most paranoid bastard on the block. When high level wizardry is a game of rocket tag for the highest of stakes, why not throw some money at some nobodies to go take the risk for you? Especially if you only pay them if they succeed. Even better if they are too dumb to ask for half up front.

But seriously, how much hp does a wizard have? What happens if he gets really really unlucky? As in rolls 1's 10 times in a row, and that orc with a battleaxe and a few barbarian levels just gets lucky once and lands a charge-crit for max damage? No more high level wizard. Why take the chance?

Fable Wright
2014-01-13, 02:41 PM
This is really the problem. If we were following the assumptions of a realistic world, the idea that high-level archmagi pay PCs to do their work for them because they can't be bothered to put in the effort would make complete sense. The thing is, in D&D, the high-level archmage could literally do in twelve seconds what it would take a group of adventurers a week to accomplish, at almost no risk to themselves. The necessity of slogging through a dank, moldy dungeon to get the relic would be a perfectly sensible deterrent, but the archmage wouldn't need to do that at all--they could just scry-and-port, obliterate every hazard in the room with a single spell, grab the shiny, and pop back home in less time than it would take to explain the quest to the PCs. There really is no reason for them not to do it themselves, because nothing is difficult or time-consuming for them anymore.

Doing this takes, say, a few hours and maybe a dozen high level spell slots.
On the one hand, they could get the job done with a few hours and a dozen high level spell slots.
On the other hand, look at what they can do with a few hours and a dozen high level spell slots. They can move heaven and earth to their ends with those spell slots and a few hours.

Let's make a butchered analogy and compare this archmage to an influential politician. They can call in favors, grease palms, and make deals for a few hours to make sure they get that shiny new top-of-the-line razor to their home today in time for their afternoon shave. Or they can spend 5 minutes, order the package from FedEx, and wait a week, using those hours to call in favors, grease palms, and make deals for hours to try to implement or oppose legislation that affects people's daily lives instead.

ufo
2014-01-13, 02:54 PM
Within some settings, being an adventurer is a mechanism in society taken on by social outcasts (racial minorities, sexual "deviants" or straight-up mentally ill), essentially giving them a place in a society that would otherwise expel them by taking on quests with subject matter that a mainstream member of society couldn't walk away from without social or psychological consequences - regardless of their martial/supernatural prowess.

GrayGriffin
2014-01-13, 03:27 PM
I think my weekly PTU game has been pretty good about it. Sure, my character has been chosen by her god to fight an evil that he and his brothers have been fighting for even longer-but said evil can split itself up, and choosing her is also a way of showing faith in her.

Not only that, but there are several disasters happening right now. So most of the stronger NPCs are helping to hold the line while the rest of us head off in different directions to get other stuff done.

icefractal
2014-01-14, 12:54 AM
One thing that helps also is - don't have the questgivers be that many orders of magnitude above the PCs; especially in personal capability.

So - the 2nd level adventurers are sent on a quest of grave importance by Immortal Ted, the 20th level master of the planes? Maybe not. His minions have minions who are more powerful.

They're sent on a quest by the Duke of Riddleport, who's maybe a high-single-digit Rogue or something? Yes - why not? For him, it would take time away from running the city, leave him open to assassination attempts, and maybe even be dangerous. If he sends the soldiers, some are going to die, and it would make his actions extremely obvious. So, the PCs.

Driderman
2014-01-14, 06:41 AM
One thing that helps also is - don't have the questgivers be that many orders of magnitude above the PCs; especially in personal capability.

So - the 2nd level adventurers are sent on a quest of grave importance by Immortal Ted, the 20th level master of the planes? Maybe not. His minions have minions who are more powerful.

They're sent on a quest by the Duke of Riddleport, who's maybe a high-single-digit Rogue or something? Yes - why not? For him, it would take time away from running the city, leave him open to assassination attempts, and maybe even be dangerous. If he sends the soldiers, some are going to die, and it would make his actions extremely obvious. So, the PCs.

Absolutely. Even if the questgiver for some reason simply has to be Immortal Ted, there may (and should) be any number of reasons why he can't simply just up and leave to go dungeoneering for a week or two. He has political or academic rivals, he has experiments or other projects that will need his personal attention during the period, he has an obligation to his voters, his wife would kill him if he bailed for a week, etc etc.

SimonMoon6
2014-01-14, 09:53 AM
In 3.x, my issue is this: it probably takes more time and effort to hire adventurers to do the task yourself. Plus money = power, so why give money away?

After all, you could spend some time writing up fliers, spend more time getting people to hang up the fliers all across town, wait for a few weeks for some adventurers to come to town to read the fliers, spend a few hours interviewing potential employees, and eventually spend some gp to send some 1st level adventurers to go find the evil goblin boss and kill him.

Or you could just scry on him, teleport to him, kill him in one shot, and teleport back home. Easy peasy.

I mean, maybe if you're a high level fighter, you can't do that, but we're talking about characters that are *more* powerful than 1st level characters. :P

Jay R
2014-01-14, 12:34 PM
Because Aragorn and Gandalf need to defend Minas Tirith and Rohan, and because the Ring is too dangerous in the hands of the powerful.

Because only one may enter the Cave of Wonders. One whose worth lies far within. A diamond in the rough.

Because only Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve can defeat the White Witch and rule at Cair Paravel.

Because he has this magical rune thing that has to be touched by somebody with a pure heart to open the gate. "Wait, what gate?"

These are not new questions. You don't have to solve them yourself; go find the solutions that already exist.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-14, 01:29 PM
Because Aragorn and Gandalf need to defend Minas Tirith and Rohan, and because the Ring is too dangerous in the hands of the powerful.

Gandalf explicitly said:


The Fellowship of the Ring, chapter 2

[Frodo] 'Will you not take the Ring?'

'No!' cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.'

Kaun
2014-01-14, 05:53 PM
In 3.x, my issue is this: it probably takes more time and effort to hire adventurers to do the task yourself. Plus money = power, so why give money away?

After all, you could spend some time writing up fliers, spend more time getting people to hang up the fliers all across town, wait for a few weeks for some adventurers to come to town to read the fliers, spend a few hours interviewing potential employees, and eventually spend some gp to send some 1st level adventurers to go find the evil goblin boss and kill him.

Or you could just scry on him, teleport to him, kill him in one shot, and teleport back home. Easy peasy.

I mean, maybe if you're a high level fighter, you can't do that, but we're talking about characters that are *more* powerful than 1st level characters. :P

laziness and lack of time.

I have some brick work out the front of my house that needs the mortar re-pointed.

I know how to do it.

I have most of the tools i need on hand and there is a hardware store 2 blocks away for anything i don't have.

But i will probably still hire someone else to do it because i lack in spare time and what spare time i do have i would prefer to spend doing other things.

if you aren't struggling for cash its often easier to let it fix problems for you.

ReaderAt2046
2014-01-14, 06:13 PM
I had an interesting answer to this question once: The Questgiver wanted to use the Five Stones Of Power in a magic ritual to unleash and bind the energies therein. However, she was so powerful that if she tried to retrieve the stones herself, her own energies might be strong enough to "activate" the stones before she was ready. So she had to send the PCs to get the stones for her.

SimonMoon6
2014-01-14, 09:30 PM
laziness and lack of time.

Yeah, but my point is that in 3.x, it is *easier* and *faster* to solve the problem yourself than to go get someone to do it for you. It's like hiring someone to push a button on the remote control for your TV because you're lazy and don't have a lot of time... that wouldn't make sense.

Now, if the high level characters were super squeamish (and therefore wouldn't go into the sewers) or had a really low pain threshold (doesn't want to risk taking even 1 hp of damage), those would be better explanations for me.

Kaun
2014-01-14, 09:55 PM
Yeah, but my point is that in 3.x, it is *easier* and *faster* to solve the problem yourself than to go get someone to do it for you. It's like hiring someone to push a button on the remote control for your TV because you're lazy and don't have a lot of time... that wouldn't make sense.


it may be if you look at it from a purely meta way. Roll a few dice, some flavor text, and alteration to the inventory section of a character sheet and your done.

But maybe casting spells is a strenuous activity, if it wasn't wouldn't you be casting them all day?

Maybe you don't want to stomp around in a goblin hut and get goblin poop all over your boots.

Maybe its not that important to him. He doesn't bother handing out flyers or going to that much trouble. One of his apprentices happens to mention that there are adventures staying at the inn and he offers them a bag of gold for getting the job done.

russdm
2014-01-14, 10:43 PM
There are only three reasons that I can think of that would actually make sense as to why a high level NPC doesn't complete the quest already and instead hands it off to a bunch of adventurers.

Reasons:

1) Plausible Deniability: The party has been given the quest by someone who can't allow anything that happens to be traced back to them. The questgiver's hands must be clean of any involvement for one reason or another.

2) Expendables: The party is frankly viewed as expendable and their failed attempt would show off defenses and the like to the questgiver who will make an attempt later. Using the party to test the defenses is a very worthwhile way to do it and if they die, you won't have to pay them.

3) Jerk: The questgiver is simply a jerk or finds it amusing to hand off gag jobs to somebody for laughs. Or they engage watching people die doing odd job and it makes them laugh. The questgiver enjoys tormenting people and player characters make the best targets.

There are no other reasons that make any sense given that as DM, you can simply not have the NPC even exist if you need. The fact that you are choosing to have the npc present means you are willing to accept that he(she) could have completed the quest anyway. Also, real world methods don't apply in fantasy land, because the expenditure of resources is not so much for high level types. Its a sign of DM/World Author/Adventure writer stupidity. Why trust the real dangerous stuff to a bunch of dorks who meet in a bar/tavern? Because its amusing to send them on dangerous missions and you are a bored reality warping wizard interested in a few laughs. Or because you are the king and are sending the characters to another nation where they might get in trouble and you don't want to be seen as having done anything.

Atleast Shadowrun had plausible explanations that don't require further thought, since Shadowrunner job givers (Mr. Johnsons) need to maintain their deniability and do so religiously. For D&D there is simply no excuse.

Incanur
2014-01-14, 11:15 PM
Simply being busy or lazy serve as fine explanations, especially at the lower levels. If the NPC in question can't teleport, travel time alone makes for plenty of reason to contract out the job. And resources do emphatically matter in at least D&D system; the whole game is about resource management. This presumably applies to NPCs as well.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-15, 12:20 AM
Yeah, but my point is that in 3.x, it is *easier* and *faster* to solve the problem yourself than to go get someone to do it for you. It's like hiring someone to push a button on the remote control for your TV because you're lazy and don't have a lot of time... that wouldn't make sense.

Now, if the high level characters were super squeamish (and therefore wouldn't go into the sewers) or had a really low pain threshold (doesn't want to risk taking even 1 hp of damage), those would be better explanations for me.

Adventuring is painful, harrowing, exhausting, and most of all deadly. It involves repeatedly pounding living creatures to death and having chunks bitten out of you by murderous beasts (both of which could surely cause stress disorders if not death). It involves being beaten to within an inch of your life and feeling the ice-cold embrace of death. It involves eating the same cold nasty rations every day, and sleeping on the ground (maybe an extradimensional floor if you're lucky) every night until the job is done, with only a cheap bedroll between you and the dirt. It usually takes a tremendous amount of time to finish the job, including travel, which is dangerous in itself: thugs and monsters roam the lands preying on any and all who dare venture outside civilization.


It should come as no surprise that most people would rather pay some gold to have a wandering gang of psychopaths do it for them.

Jay R
2014-01-15, 12:29 AM
"Hmmmm. I could do this myself. It might even be profitable. But there's risk involved. Whoever does this might die. It's certainly not worth dying for. I need to find somebody stupid enough to risk dying for treasure...

"Hey - who's that coming out of the tavern?"

NikitaDarkstar
2014-01-15, 03:02 AM
As for the scry and teleport argument.... Teleport can fail. Perhaps the questgiver in question has had a teleport mishap in the past and doesn't relish the thought of doing it again? Perhaps he gets nauseous from the experience? Perhaps scrying gives him a headache?

My point here being that it's perfectly possible to find justifications if you want to, at least for the more mundane/low level quests. It's the "save the world!!!" type scenarios that needs some serious thinking to come up with sensible explanations.

Jay R
2014-01-15, 09:12 AM
From Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince:

Prime Minister: But for heaven's sake — you're wizards! You can do magic! Surely you can sort out — well — anything!
Cornelius Fudge: The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister.
The trouble with scry and teleport is that the other side can do magic too. There can be invisible traps, or somebody else can scry and teleport. Imagine having a guard on permanent duty scrying the interior of the treasure vault, ready to teleport in a high-powered defender. In that case, you'd have to defeat all the outside guards first.

Even if you use scry and teleport, it's possible that another NPC as high-level as you, has planned for exactly that, and may be scrying on you now.

Nope. Too dangerous. Send in some expendables.

If you don't know that the questers will survive, you will send in somebody whose deaths you won't mourn.

Mutazoia
2014-01-15, 10:26 AM
Simplest answer:

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ypchmp.jpg

JeenLeen
2014-01-15, 10:58 AM
In a Mage game, we ran into this a bit and the answer usually came to the higher-ups being either too politically busy to be involved or so selfish they didn't care to take the risk. Sure, the world was at stake, but if they didn't do it, it was likely someone else would. Maybe the PCs, but if not them, someone will eventually step in. Maybe if the higher-ups ignore it long enough, people they want dead will even try to stop it. Win-win.

Euthanatos (or anyone who uses divinations and believes strongly in fate, in any system) could just say they aren't destined or, or divinations say they shouldn't do it themselves.

Jay R
2014-01-15, 01:53 PM
Part of the problem is that too many plots involve saving the world. That's not necessary. The same challenges could be necessary to save a village, or even a single child taken by a dragon.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-15, 02:13 PM
Part of the problem is that too many plots involve saving the world. That's not necessary. The same challenges could be necessary to save a village, or even a single child taken by a dragon.

Yeah, "save the world" quickly gets old, especially since I've already gone through it in countless video games. I find that small-scale heroics can be quite engaging and meaningful too, partly because it makes us come up with actual reasons for the protagonists to do them, partly because you can have believable antagonists opposing the heroes.

eulmanis12
2014-01-15, 03:20 PM
explanation can be as simple or complicated as needed but of necesity varies based on who exactly the questgiver is.

Diety: For laughs. Watching adventurers stumble around getting into wacky sheanagins in order to complete a quest in your name is the divine equivalent of saturday morning cartoons.

King: Sure you're rich and powerful, but 20+ years of sitting on a throne and holding feasts does not exactly prepare one for a dungeon crawl. If you were 20 years younger you would happily lead the expedition, but now your feeble old carcass would just get in the way. Good thing you have more than enough gold to hire these mercs to do it.

Nobility: Same as king

Archmage: sure you could just zap into the dungeon and zap out with the goods in 3 minutes tops, but in that amount of time the aprentice mages might blow up you wizarding tower. Somebody has to stay at the mage tower and supervise those knuckleheads. you can't trust them alone for 3 seconds. much easier to just cast sending down to the local mercinary guildmaster, he'll hire someone to do the job for you, and you can keep the young whipershnappers in check.

Guildmaster: the guilds books aren't going to keep themselves, you have a mountain of paperwork to do, the guild picnic to organise, a board meeting, and at least three interviews to conduct, you couldn't possibly afford to take the time off to go crawl a dungeon like the good old days, good thing that you have plenty of guild underlings to do the job for you.


General: If you could win the war single handed you would. But that's just not how war's work. You win wars by deploying assests to complete tasks. The PC's are one of your assets. clearling out this dungeon is a task. Deploy that asset.

Master Thief: sure you can be darn near invisible when you need to and picking a lock is second nature, but you're not much in a fight. Sometimes you need to hire some dumb muscle to do the job.

Icewraith
2014-01-15, 04:25 PM
Because the Witch can't have touched the spell components used in the ritual.

Because fourteen different evil societies have strike teams ready to raid your tower if you're away for more than a minute.

Because you need another two weeks of uninterrupted training before your Sparring Dummy of the Master activates.

Because you hate spiders.

Because if you did it yourself the other country would immediately declare war.

Because you're a divine caster, not an arcane one, or vice versa.

Because you've got a thing coming up in a few days you need to attend, and even with teleport once you go on an adventure all kinds of crazy crap happens and you can get stuck somewhere for months if you're not careful.

Because you want to spend time with the kids.

Because you need to recast the yearly Hallow in a couple days' time.

Because it's laundry day, and you need to get blueberry out of your robes of power without discharging any of your contingencies.

Because if you go outside for the next few days you'll activate your curse.

Because you're dueling someone in a couple days.

Because if you miss your anniversary again your wife will turn you into a newt for a week.

Because you scored a date with Fae "Lightweight" Gazongas, demigoddess of cheerleaders, gymnasts, schoolteachers, exotic dancers, and world peace.

Because you're already going to deal with the awakening of the ancient world destroying baddie, and you can't be bothered to deal with the slightly-less-ancient city destroying baddie.

Because Astral travel gives you hives. And heaves.

Because you're trying to achieve enlightenment, and step 3(c) involves meditating under a tree for ten years.

Because you've almost worked out the kinks in the hydrasquid breeding program. Move over, Owlbear!

Because the Lord of the Ninth has you frozen in a gigantic block of ice.

You're spending a year dead for tax purposes.

So yeah. Perfectly good reasons.

Morty
2014-01-15, 04:55 PM
The privilege of the powerful is to delegate. Sending some people who are less powerful than you lets you at a task lets you take care of more important business or, heavens forbid, enjoy some leisure time. The personally formidable are people too. It's only a problem if you have ridiculously powerful individuals who can literally spend five minutes on a task that would take those less formidable a day... but in this case, you've got bigger problems.

Jay R
2014-01-15, 05:15 PM
Because The Big Bang Theory is on.

Craft (Cheese)
2014-01-15, 05:31 PM
I was reading one of the other threads when a remark some one made got me thinking about one of the old frequently asked rpg conundrums;

...Powerful NPC ask's PC's to retrieve an item in exchange for coin/favor...

Many times have i had my players asked or i have read threads asking or i have contemplated myself.... if this guy is so powerful why doesn't he just magic his way over to that dungeon, blast out the bad guys and get the thing himself.

And for some reason it is only today that i realized... the amount of things i pay other people to do in RL that i could do myself, why is this even a concept that seems at all weird?

This reasoning effectively means what the PCs are doing is unimportant and on the same level as mowing the lawn or making his dinner. Riveting stuff! Of course if you try to make the PC's task actually important, like "retrieve the artifact that can destroy the world before the BBEG gets it", then we run into the "Why doesn't he just do this himself instead of leaving it to a bunch of low-level mercenaries he just met who are much more likely to screw it up" problem again.



Really? The reason some DMs make these quests have super-powerful questgivers is twofold:

1. If the PCs just try to steal the reward from the NPC or otherwise coerce it out of him, the DM will be justified when he gives the party a smackdown.

2. If the PCs refuse the quest and the DM has nothing else planned, the DM can justifiably have the NPC give the party a smackdown to coerce them into going along with it. (Ever notice Archmage Questgivers are always Plot Critical characters?)

Knaight
2014-01-15, 05:53 PM
This reasoning effectively means what the PCs are doing is unimportant and on the same level as mowing the lawn or making his dinner. Riveting stuff! Of course if you try to make the PC's task actually important, like "retrieve the artifact that can destroy the world before the BBEG gets it", then we run into the "Why doesn't he just do this himself instead of leaving it to a bunch of low-level mercenaries he just met who are much more likely to screw it up" problem again.

That doesn't follow - it just means that what the PCs are doing isn't important enough to be worth doing personally to that one person. A powerful noble might think that there's a magical plague going through one of their villages, and someone should look into that at some point. The villagers are going to have a very different view of the situation.

That said, I've never been all that big on the super powerful NPC paradigm, or the quest paradigm. The players driving their characters actions towards their own goals just seems to work better.

russdm
2014-01-15, 06:42 PM
You're spending a year dead for tax purposes.

So yeah. Perfectly good reasons.

This is the only plausible and worth mentioning reason I could see. The others were just dumb, plus it also prompts possible investigation on the part of the players.

Otherwise, the best answer is to go with the most simple: Because I am the DM and I said so. Every other bit of reasoning is just wasting time. Why doesn't the questgiver complete the job? Because I am the DM and you lot are the players whose characters should be doing this. If you want a real reason, its because the Feline Overlords have demanded to be entertained and so they shall....

Haggler
2014-01-15, 09:03 PM
In economics we call the reason "comparative advantage". It´s the simple idea that it make sence for people to do just the thing that they do better than everything else and then trade for the rest rather than do everything themselfs even if they happen to be best in the world at everything.

So it can be as simple as the fact that high level NPCs are simply better at doing something other than dungeoncrawling for magic items and have an economic reason to buy that service of dungeon experts like the PCs. Allthough in real life as well as in any other economy there is transference cost that make sure that some task will be done by most people simply becasue the transference cost make any trade for the uneconomic after all. So sometimes you might still find that the archmage grab his staff and head out to wipe out a band of lowly orcs.

Morty
2014-01-16, 05:24 AM
That said, I've never been all that big on the super powerful NPC paradigm, or the quest paradigm. The players driving their characters actions towards their own goals just seems to work better.

That's probably the best answer. If the quest-giving NPC doesn't have a plausible reason to send the PCs on an errand... maybe it's just not the right story hook.

Driderman
2014-01-16, 05:39 AM
This is the only plausible and worth mentioning reason I could see. The others were just dumb, plus it also prompts possible investigation on the part of the players.

Otherwise, the best answer is to go with the most simple: Because I am the DM and I said so. Every other bit of reasoning is just wasting time. Why doesn't the questgiver complete the job? Because I am the DM and you lot are the players whose characters should be doing this. If you want a real reason, its because the Feline Overlords have demanded to be entertained and so they shall....

Assuming this isn't a joke, can't all backgground material be handwaved by the "I'm the DM and I said so" clause? Would probably not make for the most interesting games...

ElenionAncalima
2014-01-16, 08:20 AM
Assuming this isn't a joke, can't all backgground material be handwaved by the "I'm the DM and I said so" clause? Would probably not make for the most interesting games...


It could be, but that is a line that any DM should be using sparingly. Coming up with a good in game reason is going give the players more immersive experience, than asking them to suspend their disbelief.

Waar
2014-01-16, 08:45 AM
Why does a great amount of people assume these thing about Powerful Npcs:

a) the Npc can travel much faster than the pcs

b) since the Npc is Powerful it must be better than all the pcs combined at solving the problem (and since the problem could be anything, -> better then the pcs at Everything)


c) the Npc values its time much less than what it would need to pay the Pcs to solve the problem.

d) the Npc is either so powerful that it can solve the problem without any risk, or it considers the problem important enough that it is willing to take that risk.

e) the Npc lacks psychological reasons to want to avoid doing it itself.

Once any of these is no longer true, you have a reason :smalltongue:

Mutazoia
2014-01-16, 08:51 AM
NPC: I need you to go slaughter this tribe of goblins before they successfully open a portal that will allow the God Uhmtiskwat to enter this plane of existence and end all life.

PC: Your an all powerful wizard, why don't you just pop over there and kill them all yourself?

NPC: Because I'm expending all my energy trying to keep that portal closed while simultaneously closing 4 other portals, keeping Uhmtiskwat's high priest contained inside a magical barrier and wasting time and energy with this astral projection talking to a whiny snot-nosed, self-absorbed, nobody adventurer. Any more questions?

PC: So.....where's this goblin tribe again?

DigoDragon
2014-01-16, 08:59 AM
I'm reminded of a guest comic where a druid asks three 1st level PCs to find some lost animsl for her. The PCs question the druid because... well she's a druid, she should be able to track the animals themselves more easily!

The druid turns out to be 15th level when the PCs picked a fight with her thinking she was some evil boss tricking the PCs into this adventure. :smallbiggrin:


Anyway, a lot of times it does boil down to "the powerful dude doesn't waste his time on meager little side quests. That's what the low-level PCs are for."

Driderman
2014-01-16, 10:59 AM
It could be, but that is a line that any DM should be using sparingly. Coming up with a good in game reason is going give the players more immersive experience, than asking them to suspend their disbelief.

Yeah, that was pretty much was I was getting at :smallwink:

Jay R
2014-01-16, 12:41 PM
"Hmmmm, stay safe at home with a feather bed, servants at my beck and calll, sumptuous feasts and plenty of fine mead, or tramping through the woods with the dirt and the insects and the dangers, sleeping on the ground, eating travel rations I cook myself, and drinking from unknown streams. Gosh, it's so hard to choose."

Mutazoia
2014-01-16, 12:51 PM
"Hmmmm, stay safe at home with a feather bed, servants at my beck and calll, sumptuous feasts and plenty of fine mead, or tramping through the woods with the dirt and the insects and the dangers, sleeping on the ground, eating travel rations I cook myself, and drinking from unknown streams. Gosh, it's so hard to choose."


So like I said...

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ypchmp.jpg[/QUOTE]

SimonMoon6
2014-01-16, 01:45 PM
So it can be as simple as the fact that high level NPCs are simply better at doing something other than dungeoncrawling for magic items a

But in D&D, the only way to become a high level character is to be great at dungeoncrawling for magic items. :)


Why does a great amount of people assume these thing about Powerful Npcs:

a) the Npc can travel much faster than the pcs

With appropriate WBL, a high level NPC should have access to teleport abilities.



b) since the Npc is Powerful it must be better than all the pcs combined at solving the problem (and since the problem could be anything, -> better then the pcs at Everything)


That's what "powerful" means. :) If he's high level and tier 1, then he can do anything. If he's a single-classed fighter... well, then he's probably NOT more powerful than the PCs.



c) the Npc values its time much less than what it would need to pay the Pcs to solve the problem.


How much time does it take to set up notices to hire people? And then interview them? And so forth? This could be a long time-consuming process. It's certainly going to be a lot longer than *bamf*, meteor swarm, and *bamf* back home.



d) the Npc is either so powerful that it can solve the problem without any risk, or it considers the problem important enough that it is willing to take that risk.


An adventure set for characters five levels lower than you is usually a cakewalk, much less one ten levels lower.

Of course, there's always the "save or die" things to make things totally unbalanced. If the precious artifact is guarded by 20 medusas (so odds are you'll fail a save even if you fail only on a 1), then, yeah, send in the wimpy PCs.




Anyway, a lot of times it does boil down to "the powerful dude doesn't waste his time on meager little side quests. That's what the low-level PCs are for."

But... isn't the meager side quest of finding the wimpy PCs just as annoying as the side quest they're trying to avoid by going on the side quest of finding wimpy PCs?

AMFV
2014-01-16, 02:14 PM
But in D&D, the only way to become a high level character is to be great at dungeoncrawling for magic items. :)


Not necessarily you get XP for all kinds of things, such as roleplay and the like, also there are other systems, and only a very few of them allow you to sell gold for XP.



With appropriate WBL, a high level NPC should have access to teleport abilities.

True, but that doesn't make him not lazy, or not busy, or mean that he himself wants to do whatever it is he's up to, time is money, and he probably has other more important things to deal with.



That's what "powerful" means. :) If he's high level and tier 1, then he can do anything. If he's a single-classed fighter... well, then he's probably NOT more powerful than the PCs.

How much time does it take to set up notices to hire people? And then interview them? And so forth? This could be a long time-consuming process. It's certainly going to be a lot longer than *bamf*, meteor swarm, and *bamf* back home.

Well that solves certain problems, but also exposing yourself is a problem, since you have powerful enemies, who would love to become involved if you expose yourself, that's one of the drawbacks of becoming powerful, by involving yourself in events you may attract worse things than whatever it is you're trying to fix.



An adventure set for characters five levels lower than you is usually a cakewalk, much less one ten levels lower.

Of course, there's always the "save or die" things to make things totally unbalanced. If the precious artifact is guarded by 20 medusas (so odds are you'll fail a save even if you fail only on a 1), then, yeah, send in the wimpy PCs.

But... isn't the meager side quest of finding the wimpy PCs just as annoying as the side quest they're trying to avoid by going on the side quest of finding wimpy PCs?

Not really, you have people for that, after all you are wealthy, having your servants put signs up isn't that difficult. Furthermore maybe you like to encourage new adventurers, and don't want to just be solving all the problems yourself, after all if you do that and people come to depend on you, what's going to happen when you die.

veti
2014-01-16, 04:28 PM
In a campaign once during the high level phase the party members were the People of Importance - the Duke & Pope, Wizards' Guild Headmaster, the Godfather, etc. While in our home city investigating shenanigans of the BBEG we found his minions and gave chase. They escaped into the sewers. Meanwhile, a particular crisis of another matter was happening that needed to be solved as well. We didn't have time to search the sewers. As the Duke, I hired a group of adventurers to do the stereotypical clear out the sewers adventure. I think their level was 8. If they could bring us the minions, great, but any information they could find would help, even if just where/how they left the city. I offered a nice sum for their services plus naturally they could keep any spoils (i.e. treasure) they find. It was quite thrilling to be the Patron Who Hires Adventurers for once.

I assume this was followed by a massive crime wave, with hundreds of homes and businesses being robbed by unidentified people gaining access from the sewers?

Knaight
2014-01-16, 05:26 PM
But in D&D, the only way to become a high level character is to be great at dungeoncrawling for magic items. :)



With appropriate WBL, a high level NPC should have access to teleport abilities.

We're not in a D&D forum, let alone the 3.x forum. Teleport access is far from assured, being skilled because of dungeoncrawling skills is far from assured, and the sheer lack of value that sheer numbers have in D&D is far from assured - there are plenty of games where a half dozen barely trained soldiers are actually very dangerous for the most talented warrior in the world.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-16, 05:31 PM
I assume this was followed by a massive crime wave, with hundreds of homes and businesses being robbed by unidentified people gaining access from the sewers?

Pfft. Real heroes never have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

Knaight
2014-01-16, 06:18 PM
Pfft. Real heroes never have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

The low level adventuring party would have to be pretty stupid to try that. It is explicitly known that they are the ones delving the sewers. It is explicitly known when they were hired to do that. If they try that crime wave, they are now target number 1 for any investigation. Plus, the pipes going from houses and shops to the sewer are likely too small to fit through anyways.

Jay R
2014-01-16, 06:22 PM
But... isn't the meager side quest of finding the wimpy PCs just as annoying as the side quest they're trying to avoid by going on the side quest of finding wimpy PCs?

No, or the executives of GM would build cars themselves instead of hiring people for the assembly line.

Besides, finding the PCs probably does not involve risk to life & limb, or even sleeping on the ground and dealing with mosquitoes.

russdm
2014-01-16, 07:22 PM
Pfft. Real heroes never have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

That only happens with some GMs/DMs where as if the setting were a real place or being treated as such, the PCs should always be dealing with the consequences of what they do. That would make things more believable and facing an opponent that the party created has a more profound feel to it. Its the whole, "We caused this" that really hits home how powerful and world changing the PCs actually are.

As for NPC reasons, The whole cat thing wasn't a joke. Have the NPC be giving the orders because his cat familiar told him. Nothing said that the quest or NPC had to be sane and go for the most bizarre and silly thing possible.

In one game, the party meet an NPC that talked to the skull of his former boss, and it was hilarious for me, maybe not so much for the players. Even better if the NPC questgiver has problems with the PCs language and has to get a translator who might be interested in skewing instructions.

But I think most reasons are made up when there is little need. Make the questgivers rulers or such, because taking the time away from ruling leaves the area ruled with no one in charge.

Plus, you really can't trust the PCs to be able to get the job done, and they are expendable after all. Who's going to miss them?

Most of the other reasons require an ever growing amount of explanation for powerful high level NPCs. That's why using lower level ones or rulers is always best. Besides, you want the PCs to be the ones pushing for the quests, not always giving them ones from people who could have done it anyway, even if it was a challenge.

The only reason for NPCs higher in level than the Characters was/is because the PCs are assumed to act like Jerks in some fashion, its thinking that you need to own the PCs in some fashion(a beat down perhaps) in order for them to do what they agreed to. If they were actual hero types they wouldn't need some metagame bit (Like an NPC who defeat them every time) to make sure the quest was fully complete because that's what heroes do and the PCs are usually supposed to be heroes.

As for villainous PCs, simply employ threats to make it work. Few villains are willing to put themselves at risk in some form and PCs of this sort would find not being able to function to be pretty bad as a result.

Dire Moose
2014-01-16, 07:55 PM
Another reason: Deniability.

In the campaign I ran, the king hired the PCs to retrieve an item located within his rival's kingdom. The king didn't use his own powerful minions to do it because he wanted to make sure the theft wouldn't be traced back to him.

TuggyNE
2014-01-16, 07:58 PM
No, or the executives of GM would build cars themselves instead of hiring people for the assembly line.

That's only really relevant if we're talking about an ongoing association; if it's a one-off "go here and do this for me", then going to a great deal of trouble to find some semi-suitable team of adventurers will, in fact, be far less obviously efficient. It might or might not be better overall, but it's not at all the same case as hiring someone to work for you for years or decades.

Put another way, hiring someone is basically a fixed cost, and with a very short expected employment period, you have very little to amortize that cost. The marginal value must therefore be a great deal higher to make it worthwhile.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-16, 08:26 PM
That's only really relevant if we're talking about an ongoing association; if it's a one-off "go here and do this for me", then going to a great deal of trouble to find some semi-suitable team of adventurers will, in fact, be far less obviously efficient. It might or might not be better overall, but it's not at all the same case as hiring someone to work for you for years or decades.

Put another way, hiring someone is basically a fixed cost, and with a very short expected employment period, you have very little to amortize that cost. The marginal value must therefore be a great deal higher to make it worthwhile.

It makes the "shady dude at the bar" trope more credible if he's acting as an agent: Basically, NPCs who need violent/shady jobs done hand a contract (and also money) to the agent, who then distributes the job to mercenaries or other thugs willing to do the work. Much like Mr. Johnson characters from Shadowrun, such people would serve as intermediaries between clients and workers.



As for villainous PCs, simply employ threats to make it work. Few villains are willing to put themselves at risk in some form and PCs of this sort would find not being able to function to be pretty bad as a result.

Honestly, I feel like such a cowardly and craven character wouldn't be a D&D adventurer at all. If he's not going to take quests, then the player might as well retire him and bring in a PC who will actually take part in the campaign.

AMFV
2014-01-16, 08:43 PM
Honestly, I feel like such a cowardly and craven character wouldn't be a D&D adventurer at all. If he's not going to take quests, then the player might as well retire him and bring in a PC who will actually take part in the campaign.

Actually being Craven lets you do more damage...

Jay R
2014-01-16, 08:58 PM
That's only really relevant if we're talking about an ongoing association; if it's a one-off "go here and do this for me", then going to a great deal of trouble to find some semi-suitable team of adventurers will, in fact, be far less obviously efficient. It might or might not be better overall, but it's not at all the same case as hiring someone to work for you for years or decades.

Takes no extra time or effort at all; I'm already going to the tavern.

Or if not, I just told my seneschal, "Find me some people stupid enough to take on this quest."


Put another way, hiring someone is basically a fixed cost, and with a very short expected employment period, you have very little to amortize that cost. The marginal value must therefore be a great deal higher to make it worthwhile.

I still think the marginal value is not sleeping on the ground, not slogging through a swamp, not being bitten by mosquitoes, and not risking my life. Does all that really have such little value?

Here is a description of adventures from the historical documents: "Nasty, dirty, uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can't think what anybody sees in them!"

TuggyNE
2014-01-16, 09:43 PM
Here is a description of adventures from the historical documents: "Nasty, dirty, uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can't think what anybody sees in them!"

… spoken by someone who actually then went on the adventure in question. :smalltongue: (And then some decades later realized he'd enjoyed the experience so much he wanted to do it again with less pressure.)

WildPyre
2014-01-16, 09:55 PM
In one game I ran the archmage that sent the players on missions often sent them on sidequests into dungeons that he himself created, designed to test and train them. He didn't need the maguffin at the end, he was the one that put it there.

Why? Quite simple. While he himself was powerful enough to take care of everything, he was very busy doing it and he wouldn't be around forever. Other people of trustworthy natures needed to be brought up that would be willing and able to protect the world when he was gone.

Mutazoia
2014-01-16, 10:51 PM
In one game I ran the archmage that sent the players on missions often sent them on sidequests into dungeons that he himself created, designed to test and train them. He didn't need the maguffin at the end, he was the one that put it there.

Why? Quite simple. While he himself was powerful enough to take care of everything, he was very busy doing it and he wouldn't be around forever. Other people of trustworthy natures needed to be brought up that would be willing and able to protect the world when he was gone.

Willie Wonka and the maguffin factory...

Slipperychicken
2014-01-16, 11:26 PM
In one game I ran the archmage that sent the players on missions often sent them on sidequests into dungeons that he himself created, designed to test and train them. He didn't need the maguffin at the end, he was the one that put it there.

ACKS actually does this. The idea is that wizards create dungeons essentially as monster-farms, and they use adventurers to periodically harvest monster parts for item creation.

veti
2014-01-17, 06:59 AM
The low level adventuring party would have to be pretty stupid to try that. It is explicitly known that they are the ones delving the sewers. It is explicitly known when they were hired to do that. If they try that crime wave, they are now target number 1 for any investigation. Plus, the pipes going from houses and shops to the sewer are likely too small to fit through anyways.

Huh. The king himself told them they could keep whatever treasure they found. Then "It's dark down there, how were we to know that cellar wasn't part of the sewers? You should put up signs or something."

Waar
2014-01-17, 08:57 AM
But in D&D, the only way to become a high level character is to be great at dungeoncrawling for magic items. :)


With appropriate WBL, a high level NPC should have access to teleport abilities.


That's what "powerful" means. :) If he's high level and tier 1, then he can do anything. If he's a single-classed fighter... well, then he's probably NOT more powerful than the PCs.


How much time does it take to set up notices to hire people? And then interview them? And so forth? This could be a long time-consuming process. It's certainly going to be a lot longer than *bamf*, meteor swarm, and *bamf* back home.


An adventure set for characters five levels lower than you is usually a cakewalk, much less one ten levels lower.




"The all-purpose forum for general advice or system-independent (or multi-system) discussion", your advice is very closely bound to dungeons and dragons, and even then while Power is Power, not all kinds of Power are equally applicable in any given situation. And most importantly wealth/influence =/= experience/levels (not even in DnD :smalltongue:)

Finally why would high level mages be the only ones that could be described as powerfull, there is more to power than just your ability to do things on your own :smallwink:

As for time/cost to hire, consider payment on completion, no need for any of them interviews, just let an underling spread the word, and you will have your problem solved after a little while.

edit: as for other roleplaying games, far from all of them have both teleportation and so rapidly scaling personal (defensive) power (if a shot from [insert mook here] could, however unlikely, seriously damage/injure the Npc in question, personal risk just went way upp)

ReaderAt2046
2014-01-17, 11:08 AM
Alternately, if the questgiver is royalty, he/she can't go on the quest because he/she is busy actually running the country. Or perhaps the archmage doesn't want to bother retrieving the twenty bear asses himself because he's busy working out the formulas for turning glass into steel and doesn't want to waste several hours (and spell slots) pinning down exactly where to find twenty bears well enough to teleport there, killing them off, and then teleporting back.

Also, one thing you may have left out is the idea that getting low-level adventurers to do things for you is a status symbol among the high-level, kind of like being able to hire servants in real life. So the archmage could just as easily retrieve the twenty bear asses himself, but being able to hire someone to do it boosts his pride.

Finally, note that this argument that it's always easier for the questgiver to do things himself only applies to casters with access to any spell. Any other class would still have to go to some serious time and effort to complete most PC quests.

Narren
2014-01-17, 02:49 PM
If you want it to make sense....just makes sure it makes sense.

Can the powerful archmage that's hiring them easily accomplish the task with very little effort or risk? Then WHY did you make the NPC a powerful archmage? Make him a noble or guildmaster or something. Someone with money to throw around but no real forces that can handle this kind of thing.

If you do want to use a powerful NPC, manufacturer a reason that he can't go. There have been plenty of fine examples in this thread.

Kami2awa
2014-01-17, 03:00 PM
There may be historians around who can explain this better, but:

The idea of a "standing army" (or for a fantasy world, an army of convenient minions) is relatively recent. A medieval lord would have personal guards to keep himself and his wealth safe but when he needed an army he'd have to conscript and raise one. Keeping an army around in the absence of war was (and is) hugely expensive and was thought unnecessary.

So the powerful people in the world may not have minions on hand suitable for a given quest. However, they've got the wealth and power to acquire them if they need them. Who are these minions? Well, that's the PCs. Congratulations, guys!

Scootaloo
2014-01-17, 03:23 PM
I was reading one of the other threads when a remark some one made got me thinking about one of the old frequently asked rpg conundrums;

...Powerful NPC ask's PC's to retrieve an item in exchange for coin/favor...

Many times have i had my players asked or i have read threads asking or i have contemplated myself.... if this guy is so powerful why doesn't he just magic his way over to that dungeon, blast out the bad guys and get the thing himself.

And for some reason it is only today that i realized... the amount of things i pay other people to do in RL that i could do myself, why is this even a concept that seems at all weird?

Lawn mowing people and fast food chains would be out of business.


Anyway, this may not be a quite the revelation to others that it was to me.


If you have any other weird reoccurring rpg oddities/tropes that are often questioned but can be easily explained when analyzed rationally please post them up.

No doubt there are others.

This is why powerful NPC's should be replaced with influential NPC's wherever possible.

Why does Elminster ever need anyone to do ANYTHING for him? He certainly doesn't. Hell, with Time Stop at his level, he literally has all the time in the world. The only reason he would ever want your help is if he's just entertaining himself by watching you flail about at whatever task he's set you up to. While valid (maybe being one of hte most powerful beings in the world gets boring?) it's hardly inspiring from a PC's point of view.

However Gillespie, the NPC you made who heads the wizard college in the kingdom, might be a powerful mage on his own... but he has obligations. He has duties. He has political concerns. he can't just go hying off on an adventure... and he certainly couldn't just teleport into a rival's study to steal a magic item he desires - think of the scandal, and damage to his reputation! So he finds a likely pack of rogues (perhaps choosing one from each corner of the local seedy tavern?) and offers them a deal - they nab the Wand of Whatever from Merkle the Magnanimous, he pays them, and they have gold and free passage out of town.

Eberron gives several good examples of this - the setting is full of highly influential and temporally powerful people who are, on their own, pushovers that most PC's could knock on their butts in a round or less (Well, aside from King Boranel...) But sincethe PC's lack the connections, wealth, and fame of these people, the NPC's have an upper hand; this dynamic creates a natural path to "seeking adventurers to hire!"

Scootaloo
2014-01-17, 03:29 PM
There may be historians around who can explain this better, but:

The idea of a "standing army" (or for a fantasy world, an army of convenient minions) is relatively recent. A medieval lord would have personal guards to keep himself and his wealth safe but when he needed an army he'd have to conscript and raise one. Keeping an army around in the absence of war was (and is) hugely expensive and was thought unnecessary.

So the powerful people in the world may not have minions on hand suitable for a given quest. However, they've got the wealth and power to acquire them if they need them. Who are these minions? Well, that's the PCs. Congratulations, guys!

Medieval rulers kept a stable of professional warriors - knights - who in turn were empowered to conscript from their own holdings. Now the problem is of course that the king has a pack of people who are, quite literally murderhobos, living on his dime. Most "peasant rebellions" were actually cases of the warrior class rousing conscripts on their own and going after the local ruler in a bid for power.

Thus a lot of wars in the middle ages were, at least in part, intended to keep your knights busy kicking around the other king's knights. They were useful to have around in case of war, but were not just expensive but actively threatening when there wasn't a war at hand. This has also been postulated as part of the impetus behind the Crusades - less about religious zeal, and more about sending a lot of armed brigands (and their ennobled sons) Somewhere Far Away... and if they died, well, that land they used to hold passes back to the crown or parish, so there's that...

DigoDragon
2014-01-17, 07:29 PM
But... isn't the meager side quest of finding the wimpy PCs just as annoying as the side quest they're trying to avoid by going on the side quest of finding wimpy PCs?

This is where you send a servant to the local tavern. 78% of the time, they'll find a group of PCs just showing up... :smallbiggrin:

Mutazoia
2014-01-17, 09:43 PM
This is where you send a servant to the local tavern. 78% of the time, they'll find a group of PCs just showing up... :smallbiggrin:

Just rent out all the dark corner tables and hire the first people to try to sit down at one.

Jay R
2014-01-18, 11:58 AM
… spoken by someone who actually then went on the adventure in question. :smalltongue: (And then some decades later realized he'd enjoyed the experience so much he wanted to do it again with less pressure.)

Of course, he (and his heir) were brought into the adventure by an ultra-powerful NPC who disappeared for long stretches during important dangerous parts of the adventure, which is the topic at hand.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-18, 12:12 PM
(And then some decades later realized he'd enjoyed the experience so much he wanted to do it again with less pressure.)

I think that's mostly nostalgia talking, or perhaps the ring's influence on him. Bilbo and the dwarves spent much of their adventure starving, lost, and miserable.

TuggyNE
2014-01-18, 06:20 PM
Of course, he (and his heir) were brought into the adventure by an ultra-powerful NPC who disappeared for long stretches during important dangerous parts of the adventure, which is the topic at hand.

True enough; Gandalf had, in fact, secret prior commitments in the vicinity, and a timetable he was already behind on. Given that he rejoined them as soon as possible, I'm not sure it entirely counts, though. It's certainly rather distinctly different from "go clean out this den of goblins and report back to me".


I think that's mostly nostalgia talking, or perhaps the ring's influence on him. Bilbo and the dwarves spent much of their adventure starving, lost, and miserable.

No doubt. But this serves as a rather interesting counterpoint to the personal reasons mentioned for powerful NPCs not to adventure; it can go both ways.

Eric Tolle
2014-01-19, 12:43 AM
So when I've been reading these justifications for powerful NPCsgetting people t do meaningless tasks that they could do themselves, I started wonderng where I heard this before....

Oh yeah, that's where.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t44/ericthetolle/13159889_zpsca2de85b.jpg

Chauncymancer
2014-01-20, 02:38 AM
What if it's a test?
Suppose there is a problem the Quest Giver can't handle: He needs someone to handle it for him, but he has to know they're trustworthy and strong enough to be given the quest. So he picks a second, easier task. He sends hired guns out on that, and reviews how hard a time they had of it.
Ideally the second task (related complications, side quests, and whatever) result in the party becoming more powerful than the quest giver. Strong enough to go on the real quest...