How do I Beat Magic users in the Tippyverse?

[Frostwolfeh]

So, my DM decided to give us a campaign in the Tippyverse, as a continuation of the story of one of our characters. We have had one session and that character has lost his all powerful great axe already, my character has died, and the only one who was pretty much unharmed is our own magic user.

In this campaign we started at level 20 and I was playing a ranger, as I love to play dps classes like ranger, rogue, swashbuckler, etc. Since my character has died I want to know how I can build my next character to actually stand a chance in this campaign setting.

[Pickford]

Poison.

Or, call up a genie or any other intelligent creature with an at-will ability to plane shift. Pay them to kill the wizard.

While the wizard is sleeping, the Genie plane shifts them somewhere fatal. (Plane of Fire, for example). Because unconscious characters are always willing, there's no save.

Edit: Or hire an Assassin. 10d6 from sneak attack and a +5 weapon is enough to kill a Wizard with average con in a single hit.

[Irk]

It's easy: just UMD. Or, you could somehow do a permanent emanation: selective antimagic field. Or maybe just have your caster friends buff you (and the party) with a selective planar bubble of a dead magic plane, or something.

[OldTrees1]

What does your DM mean by Tippyverse? If it is merely teleportation circles then normal characters should be fine. However if it is a Wish economy then mundanes are obsolete.

[Frostwolfeh]

Its pretty much a futuristic version where magic is used for every day things (i.e. you can open a door of a device and out pops food so you have no need for farms)

[tyckspoon]

Get the patronage/protection of a magic user. Then have your friendly wizard help you acquire a more useful body. You aren't going to get anywhere as a pathetic human or elf or whatever.. Get Magic Jarred or True Mind Switched or PAO'd into a War Troll or a dragon or, this being Tippyverse, a Shadesteel golem. That'd be a good start.

[Sir Chuckles]

What does your DM mean by Tippyverse? If it is merely teleportation circles then normal characters should be fine. However if it is a Wish economy then mundanes are obsolete.

Yes, I'll probably do a total redo in which it's very toned back, to eliminate the complete and total domination. I was planning on doing it anyway, as it was more an exercise of thought. I think I made one player cry a little (and that hurt), so I'll likely do a dream sequence call, or total "throw that whole thing out the window".

Though the Tippyverse is an unfriendly place to...well anyone who's not an Optimized Tier 1.

[Mando Knight]

Poison.

Or, call up a genie or any other intelligent creature with an at-will ability to plane shift. Pay them to kill the wizard.

While the wizard is sleeping, the Genie plane shifts them somewhere fatal. (Plane of Fire, for example). Because unconscious characters are always willing, there's no save.

Edit: Or hire an Assassin. 10d6 from sneak attack and a +5 weapon is enough to kill a Wizard with average con in a single hit.

In a literal Tippyverse, none of these would work... the magic user would be undead or otherwise immune to poisons or death attacks/precision damage, has wards up to protect them from literally every offensive magic, and would probably already have a couple shadesteel golems right behind you even before you can hire the creature that can beat him.

One does not create Tippyverse without becoming exceedingly paranoid.

[EugeneVoid]

Call upon the exfighter

Edit: Wizards don't sleep. How get close enough to Wizard for AmF? Assassin won't work either. I think we're assuming high-level wizards (level 15+)

If you're starting at 20th level and you plan to face Epic Spellcasters in Tippyverse, I think you've lost.

[Frostwolfeh]

It feels like it, I died to one failed fortitude save on banshee's wail (I got a bad roll) the rest of the party was merely put into a prism sphere which caused the rest to happen.

[Phelix-Mu]

Answer: GUTS AND DETERMINATION!!

Real Answer: Blind luck. Or DM fiat/blind luck.

The main sadness of being mundane in an advance Points of Light-type setup is that much of the talk about the table that goes on is about how to use magic to solve problems. If you have no magic, then that part of the conversation can seem pretty dull.

Not that there aren't some useful things that mundanes can do in that kind of setting. Just that spells generally can achieve the same, but better and/or faster.

Consider dipping a spellcasting class, if just for the ability to use scrolls and wands from that class and so forth.

[Sir Chuckles]

Call upon the exfighter

Edit: Wizards don't sleep. How get close enough to Wizard for AmF? Assassin won't work either. I think we're assuming high-level wizards (level 15+)

If you're starting at 20th level and you plan to face Epic Spellcasters in Tippyverse, I think you've lost.

I mostly started out with Scout 12 Warforged and a handful of Cleric 15s. It wasn't until later I broke out the Wizard 20s. They had the plan of "Let's destroy every Teleportation Circle".
Clearly, that's not going to work outside an completely unchecked deity rampaging Godzilla style. And even then it's iffy at best.

Hence the "you awake dripping in sweat" plan.

[Kioras]

If your a mundane in a Tippyverse level setting, near epic level and the DM is playing the high level magic users properly, the best thing to do if you want to continue adventuring is to pay another wizard, and have him plane shift/gate you to a non custom/non tippy level setting, like the forgotten realms, greyhawk or any of the actual published settings.

Otherwise, you need to get True Mind Switched, as stated prior into a body of a shadesteel golem or some other creature loaded with immunities, ex abilities and special attacks.

Conversely you can pay a high level wizard to wish you to another creature type (Savage Species p150), to change into the creature and potentially gain all the SNA/SLA/EX abilities of the creature(good), along with a nice face LA and Hid Die adjustment(bad). There is a suggested chance of getting each ability also. I guess you could then pay for someone to wish you to a solar(with 20 class levels), but then you will basically never level again.

[Frostwolfeh]

I mostly started out with Scout 12 Warforged and a handful of Cleric 15s. It wasn't until later I broke out the Wizard 20s. They had the plan of "Let's destroy every Teleportation Circle".
Clearly, that's not going to work outside an completely unchecked deity rampaging Godzilla style. And even then it's iffy at best.

Hence the "you awake dripping in sweat" plan.

You know that he was going to try to do that no matter what. and as a martial class I was not going to be able to beat him.

[Pickford]

In a literal Tippyverse, none of these would work... the magic user would be undead or otherwise immune to poisons or death attacks/precision damage, has wards up to protect them from literally every offensive magic, and would probably already have a couple shadesteel golems right behind you even before you can hire the creature that can beat him.

One does not create Tippyverse without becoming exceedingly paranoid.

Nothing you listed can stop the Genie from killing the Wizard.

If there is something that makes a Wizard immune to poison 24/7 I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

Same goes for Sneak attacks (Note, I never mentioned Death Attack).

If you'd care to list these ever present wards, I'd be happy to discuss this, but nothing is a sure thing. There are no surefire methods for determining if someone is planning on killing you without divine ranks.

And Shadesteel golems are prohibitively expensive. 130k for an ECL 14, so 260k for 2?

For my money, I'll stick with Stone Golems at 90k. (Or better yet, if you're determined to spend over 100k, why not just go for broke on a Greater Stone Golem with it's 42 HD?)

edit: If you really want to wreck a spellcaster, just hire an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil: Abjurer 13/IotSV 7. Other casters simply can't harm them courtesy of the veils.

[EugeneVoid]

Doesn't 100% fortification stop sneak attacks?
Or Extended Persisted Shapechanges into things I don't know. There's plenty of stuff that's immune to poison.


Why is the wizard sleeping? I'm sure he can shapechange into something that doesn't need to.
How did the genie get to him? With wierdstones and other jazz that I don't really know.

I'm sure there's someway to get Shadesteel spam easy. Maybe something to do with traps

And being a better caster is exactly that.

Contact other plane? (Unless DM fiat and the being lies to you)

[Frostwolfeh]

I Thought about making an arcane archer, but the problem came up if my arrows don't hit the spells are useless. If you hadn't noticed I'm not the best player ever. Any thoughts on if and how I could make it work? If not I'll try to think something else up.

[Juntao112]

If there is something that makes a Wizard immune to poison 24/7 I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

Same goes for Sneak attacks (Note, I never mentioned Death Attack).
Necropolitan

[Pickford]

Doesn't 100% fortification stop sneak attacks?

Yes, but it's also an ability of magical armor, something a wizard doesn't wear.


Or Extended Persisted Shapechanges into things I don't know. There's plenty of stuff that's immune to poison.

Shapechange is 9th level, how is the Wizard persisting that? (What's stopping the Assassin from triggering a DM, GDM, or MD from hiding, and then sneak attacking?)


Why is the wizard sleeping? I'm sure he can shapechange into something that doesn't need to.

If the Wizard wants to ever regain spells, he has to sleep/trance.


How did the genie get to him? With wierdstones and other jazz that I don't really know.

Weirdstone is from Faerun, Tippyverse assumes standard rules which is Greyhawk. There are no weirdstones.


I'm sure there's someway to get Shadesteel spam easy. Maybe something to do with traps

Nothing you can setup without annoying a Genie, who then kills you from spite.


And being a better caster is exactly that.

Contact other plane? (Unless DM fiat and the being lies to you)

A 5th level spell slot for 1 yes/no/maybe/irrelevant answer per 2 CL. If you spent all 20 slots from 5th lvl+ on this spell that's 200 questions. Of course, now the Wizard hasn't cast a single other spell, and they probably don't know who the attacker is anyway.

edit: Juntao112, Tippyverse isn't in Forgotten Realms so no Necropolitans exist.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You beat magic users in Tippyverse by being a more skilled magic user. That's it. There is no plan B. Either you're a better magic user than the one you want to fight or you're dead.

This leads to what amounts to an -immensely- complex chess game, wherein the outcome is decided before the first spell cast in the presence of the foe is even prepared. There are long periods of gathering information, learning about your foe and his capabilities, and how to get to him past his non-personal defenses punctuated by short bursts of acting directly to execute the plan that all that planning and study results in.

It's a largely different game from typical D&D.

[unseenmage]

You beat magic users in Tippyverse by being a more skilled magic user. That's it. There is no plan B. Either you're a better magic user than the one you want to fight or you're dead.

This leads to what amounts to an -immensely- complex chess game, wherein the outcome is decided before the first spell cast in the presence of the foe is even prepared. There are long periods of gathering information, learning about your foe and his capabilities, and how to get to him past his non-personal defenses punctuated by short bursts of acting directly to execute the plan that all that planning and study results in.

It's a largely different game from typical D&D.

Strongly strongly seconding this.
A very very different game.

[Dalebert]

Yes, but it's also an ability of magical armor, something a wizard doesn't wear.

It only takes a 1 lvl dip to spellthief and Master Spellthief feat to get around that.


Shapechange is 9th level, how is the Wizard persisting that?

An ultimate magus with 1 lvl spellthief and 1 lvl another spontaneous caster class and Master Spellthief (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/master-spellthief--1891/) feat could have CL 30 by the time he's casting 9th lvl spells. That's 5 hours. Extend with a rod and it's 10 hours. Just cast it twice a day. That's assuming you don't use Practiced Spellcaster which you could take twice and make it CL 38.


And Shadesteel golems are prohibitively expensive. 130k for an ECL 14, so 260k for 2?

Auto-resetting wish traps. 25k gp a pop.

[Bakkan]

Yes, but it's also an ability of magical armor, something a wizard doesn't wear.

Wizards can wear lots of mundane armors, from the lowly thistledown githcraft mithril chain shirt to the +1 Twilight feycraft githcraft thistledown mithril full plate, both of which have 0% ASF, or even more easily a mithril buckler.



Shapechange is 9th level, how is the Wizard persisting that? (What's stopping the Assassin from triggering a DM, GDM, or MD from hiding, and then sneak attacking?)

Incantatrix and/or Arcane Thesis and +0 metamagics, e.g.



What's stopping the Assassin from triggering a DM, GDM, or MD from hiding, and then sneak attacking?

Mindsight with large range and ring of counterspells are two highly nonoptimal solutions.



If the Wizard wants to ever regain spells, he has to sleep/trance.

Since the Wizard almost certainly doesn't need to sleep, all he must do is spend 8 hours in "restful calm."



Nothing you can setup without annoying a Genie, who then kills you from spite.

Spell traps (wish or otherwise) don't have anything to do with genies.



A 5th level spell slot for 1 yes/no/maybe/irrelevant answer per 2 CL. If you spent all 20 slots from 5th lvl+ on this spell that's 200 questions. Of course, now the Wizard hasn't cast a single other spell, and they probably don't know who the attacker is anyway.

If a wizard can't figure out if someone's trying to kill him and the name and current location of the assassin using 200 questions, he doesn't have the Int to cast his higher-level spells anyway.


Tippyverse isn't in Forgotten Realms so no Necropolitans exist.
Necropolitans are in Libris Mortis, a setting-agnostic book.

[Lappy9001]

Answer: GUTS AND DETERMINATION!!AND MANLY FIGHTING SPIRIT!!! (http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090222054225/gurennlagann/images/2/29/17157-61177-gurrenragonmonjpg-550x.jpg)

Although, really, outside of being a caster or working directly with a caster, there's not much of a chance.

[TuggyNE]

Kelb beat me to my main point, and I don't think I can state the case better, so listen to him.


Because unconscious characters are always willing, there's no save.

I hate this particular rules misconception, not least because it's so tedious to disprove over and over.

But hey, let's just get this out there for the benefit of those confused by this misinformation.
Target or Targets
[…] Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

The context is the Target line of the spell, not the Saving Throw line, and the first sentence of the paragraph limits the scope further, to only those spells that restrict you to willing targets, such as teleport (but not plane shift). Now, let's see what it says under Saving Throw.
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result.

Here's where the confusion occurs, as people carelessly skim through the text, see nothing but "willingly", and assume that it refers to the same thing as a willing target. It doesn't. The primary term in use here is "voluntarily giving up a saving throw", and the concept of forgoing a saving throw is distinct from the concept of declaring yourself a willing target (just as the concept of a range is different from the concept of an area), although one usually subsumes the other in effect (since willing-only spells do not have saving throws for eligible targets).

There is thus no RAW grounds to suppose that a spell with a saving throw can skip out on that simply by surprising a helpless target. Indeed, because there are a number of spells (nightmare within Core comes to mind) that can only be cast on a helpless target and have a saving throw, it is clear that such a reading, besides contradicting the text, would be nonsensical.

[Phelix-Mu]

Uh-oh. Wizard op discussion is forecast for the next three days. Batten down the hatches, folks. The next time we see the sun might not be until Wednesday.

[Eldariel]

It only takes a 1 lvl dip to spellthief and Master Spellthief feat to get around that.

Or just Twilight Armor or y'know, the whole Heart of X-line cast on you so you don't need Greater Fortifications or one of the dozen other ways to do this with the left hand.


An ultimate magus with 1 lvl spellthief and 1 lvl another spontaneous caster class and Master Spellthief (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/master-spellthief--1891/) feat could have CL 30 by the time he's casting 9th lvl spells. That's 5 hours. Extend with a rod and it's 10 hours. Just cast it twice a day.

Or just use Incantatrix (they can persist spells for allies), Spelldancer, Halruaan Elder or whatever. Or any of the dozen other ways. This kinda stuff is more than easy - I don't think we should need to discuss why this wouldn't work.

Though actually, Tippyverse casters IIRC hunted down every member of all classes with Trapfinding to ensure nobody disarms the food traps and such, so I would expect non-caster assassins don't even really exist there (and yes, caster assassins are among the greater threat creatures).


And no, you can't Plane Shift next to a Wizard; Plane Shift lands you within a 5-500 miles of the destination (a percentile roll). Use Wish for instant transportation; it's the only thing that's not immediately blocked by basic wards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the Wizard wants to ever regain spells, he has to sleep/trance.

He doesn't have to sleep, just to spend 8 hours at rest and there are things that arguably shorten this to as little as 2 hours though in those cases the caster still can't replenish a spell slot that's been used in the last 8 hours.


Weirdstone is from Faerun, Tippyverse assumes standard rules which is Greyhawk. There are no weirdstones.

This is false. Tippyverse uses -all- of the RAW and is set in its own game world. Forgotten realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, it's all legal.

[Emperor Tippy]

Nothing you listed can stop the Genie from killing the Wizard.
No, his Persistent Selective Dweomer of Transference does that. Blocks all magic cast by anyone that is not him.


If there is something that makes a Wizard immune to poison 24/7 I'd be interested in knowing what it is.
Persistent Neutralize Poison for a way that is independent of items, build, or race.


Same goes for Sneak attacks (Note, I never mentioned Death Attack).
Heavy Fortification for a way independent of race. Independent of items you make all 4 Heart of X spells Persistent.


And Shadesteel golems are prohibitively expensive. 130k for an ECL 14, so 260k for 2?
They really aren't that expensive.


For my money, I'll stick with Stone Golems at 90k. (Or better yet, if you're determined to spend over 100k, why not just go for broke on a Greater Stone Golem with it's 42 HD?)
Because they suck. Stone Golem's are Large+ which means that they need at least 10 foot high, 10 foot wide, passages to get through. Stone Golems can't fly, which means that pretty much anyone who matters even minimally can kite them to death by simply flying outside of their reach and shooting them with arrows until they die. Stone Golems have no attack with a range greater than 10 feet.

Shadesteel Golems are infinitely better than Stone Golems, as in one Shadesteel Golem can defeat an infinite number of Stone Golems.


edit: If you really want to wreck a spellcaster, just hire an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil: Abjurer 13/IotSV 7. Other casters simply can't harm them courtesy of the veils.
That really isn't true at all.


Yes, but it's also an ability of magical armor, something a wizard doesn't wear.
Where in the world did you get that absurd idea? Per the Arms and Equipment Guide Bracers of Armor can trade AC bonus for Armor enhancements on a one to one basis and can have up to +13 worth of effective armor bonus pre epic. This means +12 worth of armor upgrades, as with everything else magic just does it better.


Shapechange is 9th level, how is the Wizard persisting that? (What's stopping the Assassin from triggering a DM, GDM, or MD from hiding, and then sneak attacking?)
Any number of ways. I use private demiplanes for my metamagic needs. In core only you go Greater Rod of Extend Spell + 3 castings of Shapechange. That gets you eighteen hours per day. Bur Another rod if you want to spend 1 more for a full 24 hours.


If the Wizard wants to ever regain spells, he has to sleep/trance.
Not technically true. There are various ways to do infinite spell slot recovery. That being said, its also irrelevant as thanks to time manipulation only a standard action passed for the rest of the universe while he slept for 12 hours.


Weirdstone is from Faerun, Tippyverse assumes standard rules which is Greyhawk. There are no weirdstones.
No, the Tippyverse makes no such assumption. Unless specified otherwise I always assume that all official sources from all settings are in play.


Juntao112, Tippyverse isn't in Forgotten Realms so no Necropolitans exist.
Please stop acting like you are any kind of authority on what the Tippyverse is. And Necropolitans are actually setting neutral, being from Libris Mortis: The book of Bad Latin.

---
To the OP: Pay for a scroll of Hide Life and use it. That should prevent most ways of killing you. You won't win but you will die less.

[Juntao112]

edit: Juntao112, Tippyverse isn't in Forgotten Realms so no Necropolitans exist.
Pickford, the next time you choose to dispute something with me or anyone else, it would be wise to avoid Googling the subject and drawing conclusions off of the first link you come across. (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/necropolitan.shtml)

[Zanos]

Oh boy, a pickford thread!

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2837510/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn-o.gif

At the OP, depends on the optimization level.

Honestly, even in non-tippyverse setting, typical high level casters can't be touched without some sort of magical access. Whether because they're flying, on another plane, or can travel across space and time as a standard action is irrelevant, the point is you need some sort of magic to beat them.

So how magical are you willing to be?

[icefractal]

Step 1 - Find out what your DM means by Tippyverse.

Oddly enough, this is a case where if you're actually unlimited-OP, you're fine (buy a Candle of Invocation, now you're NI like everyone else). If it's more mid-OP (using spells effectively, but nothing that could yield an infinite loop), then you're in for a hard road.

It's not that its impossible to keep a non-caster 'in the game', but it is difficult. You'll have to be significantly more optimized than the casters you're dealing with, and you'll be using items heavily enough that you won't be "mundane" by any stretch.

[EugeneVoid]

I think Rubik's monk would do surprisingly well in Tippy's setting by getting rid of the less useful monk levels.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Barbarian 1/Dragon Shaman 1/Whatever X//Dread Blossom Swarm Symbiote.

You want to pick up both the Blazing and Frozen beserker feats (Sandstorm/Frostburn respectively). Also your Dragon Shaman should pick up the Vigor aura.

Can't be affected by any spell, except for AoE spells, cast by any caster (This includes Pun-Pun. Yes, really.), excluding Mind Effecting effects (But you should already be immune to those, if you're a high level character). You get Regeneration 5, bypassed by Fire, Cold and, as always, Trollbane, whilst Raging, you are vulnerable to Searing Spell and Trollbane.

Now, even if a Caster gets a couple of lucky shots off and does take you to 0HP or less, what happens then? Well, that's where a unique interaction between Swarm traits and the Dragon Shaman.

As we all know:


Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or lower causes it to break up[.]

Which means that a Swarm cannot be harmed past that and by extension, you. This is where Dragon Shaman kicks in, because you are still YOU. Which means that you can still benefit from Vigor and get some nifty Fast Healing in. Which brings you over 0HP and back into the realm of existence.

"But wait!" I hear you ask "Dragon Shaman Aura's affect a distinct number of targets. You can't be affected!", well, you'd be right if it was your ally that was the Dragon Shaman. Because only your allies are called out as Targets. You are not.

So, using all this, you walk up to and then physically beat them. Like, with an axe or something. They can't kill you, they can't Plane Shift you, hell they can't Wish you away. The best they can do run.

[The Random NPC]

I always thought that in the Tippyverse, most if not all of the casters are busy running the city. They don't have the time to kill random mundanes, so keep your head down and you should be fine. Now if you go around poking sleeping bears, that's your own fault.

[Rubik]

I think Rubik's monk would do surprisingly well in Tippy's setting by getting rid of the less useful monk levels.Cheers!

O.P., what if you played something fun and ridiculously hard to kill that can play as a mundane when you want, but can hang with the big boys?

As EugeneVoid mentioned, my Elder Evil Monk Challenge build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) (or some variant with far fewer monk levels and more psion or ardent or psywar and Tashalatora) could work.

Alternately, if LA buyoff is allowed, get yourself a dvati caster or manifester character who buys off his LA at your earliest convenience. Then immediately take a level in the ghost savage progression class. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) Buy it off immediately (since at that point you still only have +1 LA). Then take another level and buy it off. Repeat until you have all the levels you want (at least until you get Malevolence). Then find a couple of really stout bodies to possess and use those in your magically enhanced beatdowns until they die or you find something better. Works best with thrallherd, since you then have all the bodies you need, and you can even use your lower level believers to infiltrate society at numerous levels to help you in your goals. Even better, they can sacrifice spell slots to boost your epic spell mitigation.

[Ksstaritixtl]

So, using all this, you walk up to and then physically beat them. Like, with an axe or something. They can't kill you, they can't Plane Shift you, hell they can't Wish you away. The best they can do run.

What is stopping them from just encasing you in a wall of force/stone/iron/whatever, dispersing you with control weather, or just leaving?

[Vaz]

Poison.Not going to work. Wizards are either Necropolitan, or have some form of immunity to it. Heroics for Martial Study is also a thing.


Or, call up a genie or any other intelligent creature with an at-will ability to plane shift. Pay them to kill the wizard.

While the wizard is sleeping, the Genie plane shifts them somewhere fatal. (Plane of Fire, for example). Because unconscious characters are always willing, there's no save.
What Wizard worth their 50+ Intelligence in Tippyverse doesn't have a Contingent *go away anything that's bothering me*. Let alone having spells/tools that remove the need to sleep; and that's if they're not an Elf already. Again, it may even be an Astral Projection of a Wizard in a 10:1 Time Trait Plane, who to regenerate his spells spends 40 minutes a day sleeping.

Or is it one of the Wizards Body Outside Body Clones?

And how does the Genie get through the Selective Spell Antimagic Field?


Edit: Or hire an Assassin. 10d6 from sneak attack and a +5 weapon is enough to kill a Wizard with average con in a single hit.
That's presuming your Assassin can get close enough. How does said Assassin get close enough, especially considering it's probably an Astral Projection/Clone etc.

@Sgt Cookie; Contingent Celerity is a thing.

[Segev]

The question I always find myself asking - and to which I have yet to find a satisfying answer - is, "How would one enhance the capabilities of 'mundane' classes such that they can play along side the casters and be worthwhile contributors and potentially genuinely threatening foes?"

[Rubik]

The question I always find myself asking - and to which I have yet to find a satisfying answer - is, "How would one enhance the capabilities of 'mundane' classes such that they can play along side the casters and be worthwhile contributors and potentially genuinely threatening foes?"I think my monk could do a handy job at it, as was pointed out earlier.

[Segev]

I think my monk could do a handy job at it, as was pointed out earlier.

It's at the least a very good start, though I suspect it's really just "surviving" rather than "contributing" or "being dangerous." No offense meant, as I really enjoyed reading the thread on the build.

But it is, more importantly, also only one build.

My question is more fundamentally aimed at what you'd have to do with base class design for "mundane" classes to make, say, the under-this-paradigm-revised Fighter play on that level.

Spellcasters are Tier 1 and 2 primarily, I think, because the combination of conceits behind spells include "many discrete effects, of which you can learn a fairly broad to nigh unlimited number" and "magic can do anything as long as you calibrate the power of the specific effect of a given spell to the spell's level." Combine those, and then combine all the "specific" spells of varying levels, and you wind up with the "can do anything" effect. Compound it with "because spells are limited-use-per-time-period, they can be stronger than usable-at-will abilities." Thus you have Knock trump the entire Open Lock skill.

[BeerMug Paladin]

There's no way to beat a prepared wizard in a game as a PC. In D&D 3.5/Pathfinder/etc, there is always a spell to keep one alive if dm fiat specifies it. How bad it is depends on the particular dm.

The only real way that a non-caster class can compete with a caster in an arbitrary setting is via direct skill competitions, things like diplomacy, appraise, intimidate, bluff, knowledges about the setting, gaining alliances with other NPCs against the magic user, etc...

And if your DM isn't running a game where your charming rogue makes allies easily, can influence npcs to ally with them and generally do useful things with knowledges, bluffs and the like then there's simply no way a non-caster can ever compete with a caster. It's just not going to happen no matter what you do.

Most DMs I've encountered ensure the skills don't make this kind of difference. I've always considered the system requires DMs to put thought into this kind of indirect competition, but in my experience it generally doesn't happen. So magic usually ends up way overpowered, because its effects are not dependent on DM planning the way a diplomacy check is. Magic just happens, regardless of what the DM planned.

I'm not terribly familiar with Tippyverse, but that seems especially true for the setting and I would guess most people wanting to use it would have an infatuation for magic users, and wouldn't do the planning required to hamstring them.

[Dalebert]

Tippyverse aside, it's actually not shocking that a mundane character would be fairly helpless against a character with access to magic. Remember the recent thread where everyone picked two 0 level spells to have unlimited access to in the real world and how world-changing each was? Imagine a 5th level wizard in our mundane world with access to things like silent image, invisibility, knock, disguise self. As long as he was careful and planned ahead, he could gradually take over the world.

If anything, the idea of character levels being comparable, e.g. 20th level monk and 20th level wizard, is what is contrived. It doesn't actually make intuitive sense. Magic is all about making the impossible possible.

"I've trained all my life to perform amazing feats of physical prowess!"

"Okay. I've learned how to alter reality itself to suit my whims."

I played a game once that figured that into the culture. If the Tippyverse is a take on how access to specific magics would affect the culture, this game was a take on how the very existence of magic would affect the game itself, i.e. if magic exists, it's such a game changer that everyone would want to be using it. I forget the name--something Arcana, I think. All PCs were some variation on a mage. You had NPC underlings to fill the boring mundane rolls.

[Vaz]

Replace 10 of their class levels with Ardent taking the Dominant Time Mantle ACF from Minds Eye 4. Beg/Borrow/Steal a way to get Synchronicity onto the Time Mantle using the Substitute Powers ACF. Linked Power Syncronicity. With Anticipatory Strike, you gain an Immediate action, which you can Linked Power Syncronicity abuse up to the hilt.

Dark Chaos Shuffle Expanded Knowledge for every 7th level or lower spell. With Bestow Power, provided you have PP left over (Manifester arrows), you can can in the space of 1 apparent round (for everyone else) gain your PP back/

Proceed as a Mundane 10/Ardent 10.

You need Practised Manifester to get a ML of 14. With an Orange Ioun Stone (and other "always on" Manifester Level boosters; perhaps using the Psionic Persistent Power (3.0 material, however), to gain Persistent Suffer the Flesh for +5, meaning you can get a ML of 20. You can heal the Con damage through the Wyrm Wizard to Spell to Power Erudite giving you Restoration or whatever to heal it.

Of course, you are less Mundane, here, you are simply a lesser Wizard with potentially some niche abilities (Venerable Saint Serenity Paladin 2/Decisive Strike Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2/Ninja 2 (Dark Chaos Shuffle the Ki Feats onto it)/Shiba Protector 1/Fist of the Forest 3, perhaps.

Improve your Wisdom sky high; along with Maximising your Manifester Level for Greater Consumptive Field with Owl's Insight (1/2 CL to Wisdom); I'd estimate that you can get a ML Level at least in the reaches of +15 or so, so you'd be left with a ML of around 36 or so with a bit of minor optimizing (with more research, possibly higher), so +18 Wis. From Items and levelling, being old, etc, you've got around 55 Wis; that's Wis to AC, 2x Wis to Saves, Con to AC, Wis to Attack and Damage, and the whole ability to turn Invisible when attacking (without losing Invisibility when attack hits).

For combat, just (Greater) Metamorphose with Metamorphic transfer into something naughty if you really need to hit it with a stick.

As an example.

Another build stub I have that I'm keeping secret is an Evil only one, that in the space of 6 levels, and 3 feats can get Infinite Cha; leaving 14 levels of getting Cha to everything possible, which can possibly compete.

[Segev]

One way to view "levels" is to view them - as 3e tried to - as equivalent levels of challenge. Your CR, your ECL, etc. should theoretically be a statement of just how powerful you are and what else you can face.

Under this theory, an ECL 20 character of any class should be roughly equivalent in overall power and effectiveness in aggregate generalized gameplay as any other, and should meet out the same challenge to another ECL 20 character as a CR 20 monster. Again, in general and in aggregate across all possible encounters weighted by ratio of relative frequency.

Another way to view "levels" is to view them as abstract packets of "power" to be dolled out over the course of a game. They're merely a progression mechanic, made to be as fine-grained or as coarse as is necessary to make a meaningful curve along the experience chart.

Under this theory, two level 20 characters could have vast disparities in power and overall effectiveness. However, the one who is more powerful should have taken much longer - as measured by having far more exp - than did the less powerful one. In theory, the exp total should be a good measure of the actual power level of the characters involved, and you should be able to calibrate NPCs/monsters based on the number of exp the PCs are expected to have when they face them.


AD&D 1e and 2e ran with the latter assumptions, generally speaking. They had differing exp charts based on your class.

I won't say they were calibrated perfectly (or even well, necessarily), but the fundamental paradigm was distinctly different between 2e and 3e; 3e uses the former set of assumptions. And then breaks them, because as we all know, a level 20 cleric and a level 20 rogue are not equal in relative power, generally speaking.

[Chronos]

In the actual, literal Tippyverse, as in the campaign setting that Emperor Tippy plays in, it's trivially easy to defeat any wizard, or in fact any other character, regardless of class or level. Just get yourself one componentless Wish (the details are left as an exercise for the student, but there are a number of ways to do so in Tippyverse), and then Wish for the target to gain some really expensive item (as in, more expensive than their WBL would allow). WBL is an absolute rule in Tippyverse, with anyone who exceeds it being erased from existence by irresistible cosmic forces.

[Emperor Tippy]

In the actual, literal Tippyverse, as in the campaign setting that Emperor Tippy plays in, it's trivially easy to defeat any wizard, or in fact any other character, regardless of class or level. Just get yourself one componentless Wish (the details are left as an exercise for the student, but there are a number of ways to do so in Tippyverse), and then Wish for the target to gain some really expensive item (as in, more expensive than their WBL would allow). WBL is an absolute rule in Tippyverse, with anyone who exceeds it being erased from existence by irresistible cosmic forces.

Well that doesn't work because you have to attune the item, which takes 5 minutes. Or you can rush it with a UMD or Spellcraft check equal to the items CL + 10.

[Pickford]

It only takes a 1 lvl dip to spellthief and Master Spellthief feat to get around that.

An ultimate magus with 1 lvl spellthief and 1 lvl another spontaneous caster class and Master Spellthief (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/master-spellthief--1891/) feat could have CL 30 by the time he's casting 9th lvl spells. That's 5 hours. Extend with a rod and it's 10 hours. Just cast it twice a day. That's assuming you don't use Practiced Spellcaster which you could take twice and make it CL 38.

Auto-resetting wish traps. 25k gp a pop.

This hypothetical was a 20th level wizard, no dips were mentioned.

Auto-resetting wish traps would also provide only a single outcome (the wish cast) and nothing else. And casting that wish would consume more resources than just building whatever it was you were wishing for the normal way.


Wizards can wear lots of mundane armors, from the lowly thistledown githcraft mithril chain shirt to the +1 Twilight feycraft githcraft thistledown mithril full plate, both of which have 0% ASF, or even more easily a mithril buckler.

That they conceivably can doesn't make it happen automatically. Besides, leading with the MD destroys it.


Incantatrix and/or Arcane Thesis and +0 metamagics, e.g.

Mindsight with large range and ring of counterspells are two highly nonoptimal solutions.

Wizard 20 isn't an Incantatrix. And those solutions are non-optimal because ring of counterspells doesn't work unless the spell is the correct one, and they don't work at all on MD (it doesn't target). Mindsight is both a feat (So that's 3 feats the Wizard has burned; Mindsight, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell) that requires telepathy. When did this Wizard 20 Necropolitan also become telepathic? How will this avail him if the killer is using disguise to pretend to be someone who's supposed to be there? In a crowd? In a city? Mind Blanked? This does virtually nothing to prevent the attack.


Since the Wizard almost certainly doesn't need to sleep, all he must do is spend 8 hours in "restful calm."

And restful calm is never when you have an opponent who doesn't need to sleep and can, at will, plane shift in and out, along with any of their friends/kin.


Spell traps (wish or otherwise) don't have anything to do with genies.

A spell trap of wish costs a significant amount of XP that a base level 20 character can't actually pay. (You can't spend enough XP to drop a level). The purpose of the genie is to do an end-run around that.


If a wizard can't figure out if someone's trying to kill him and the name and current location of the assassin using 200 questions, he doesn't have the Int to cast his higher-level spells anyway.

Wizards are only as smart as the people playing them. If said player can't figure out the identity through yes/no/maybe/irrelevant answers then it can't be done.


Necropolitans are in Libris Mortis, a setting-agnostic book.

Fair enough.

TuggyNE: Fair enough, then it's just a question of the Wizard, eventually, failing his saving throw and being killed. The Genie has unlimited castings of Plane Shift.


This is false. Tippyverse uses -all- of the RAW and is set in its own game world. Forgotten realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, it's all legal.

My impression was that rule sets from settings are mutually exclusive. You're either in a setting or not. Especially considering those settings have mutually exclusive rules regarding death.


Persistent Neutralize Poison for a way that is independent of items, build, or race.

No it isn't. Neutralize Poison is a "Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 3, Pal 4, Rgr 3" spell. Persisten spell ups each of those by 6 spell slots, so it's a "Brd 10 Clr 10 Drd 9 Pal 10 Rgr 9" spell. Only two of those are mechanically possible, and only one is possible pre-epic casting. This is a Wizard 20, not a Drd 20.


They really aren't that expensive.

They cost 1/1000th of the entire wealth of a major Trading city. That is expensive.


Because they suck. Stone Golem's are Large+ which means that they need at least 10 foot high, 10 foot wide, passages to get through. Stone Golems can't fly, which means that pretty much anyone who matters even minimally can kite them to death by simply flying outside of their reach and shooting them with arrows until they die. Stone Golems have no attack with a range greater than 10 feet.

Shadesteel Golems are infinitely better than Stone Golems, as in one
Shadesteel Golem can defeat an infinite number of Stone Golems.

This is falsifiable, the Shadesteel and Stone golems both must proceed to melee range to do anything. You're mistaken, in part because we're actually discussing greater stone golems which have a reach of 15' and deal 4d8+13 damage per slam which outstrips the greater shadesteel's 2d10+13.

If we're just comparing the regular versions it's 2d6+7 (shadesteel) vs 2d10+9 (stone). and 5' (shade) vs 10' (stone). The shadesteel can't even touch the stone golem without provoking.

As to the point about size, if they are located in cramped quarters then the flight doesn't matter.


That really isn't true at all.

You are incorrect. Veils act as prismatic layers, which must be brought down in the appropriate order, not even a wish can get around that.


Any number of ways. I use private demiplanes for my metamagic needs. In core only you go Greater Rod of Extend Spell + 3 castings of Shapechange. That gets you eighteen hours per day. Bur Another rod if you want to spend 1 more for a full 24 hours.

How does one make the demiplane private? According to genesis it's just attached to the Ethereal plane, which makes it public.


No, the Tippyverse makes no such assumption. Unless specified otherwise I always assume that all official sources from all settings are in play.

These settings have mutually exclusive features. The way monsters behave, what happens if/when someone dies, etc... How do you account for that without direct DM input?


Not going to work. Wizards are either Necropolitan, or have some form of immunity to it. Heroics for Martial Study is also a thing.

Incorrect. Wizards, can be Necropolitan, but they aren't by default. And if they were, you'd hire a Cleric assassin.


What Wizard worth their 50+ Intelligence in Tippyverse doesn't have a Contingent *go away anything that's bothering me*. Let alone having spells/tools that remove the need to sleep; and that's if they're not an Elf already. Again, it may even be an Astral Projection of a Wizard in a 10:1 Time Trait Plane, who to regenerate his spells spends 40 minutes a day sleeping.

Want to be more specific on that contingency? If we're talking the spell, then anyone who specialized and dropped Evocation. If it's the crafted thing, then basically no wizard has that up 24/7 because it would take days to simply put a new one into place. Days where the Wizard is vulnerable.


Or is it one of the Wizards Body Outside Body Clones?

Wizard != Wu Jen. And even if it were they last 1 minute. Observing the Wizard for 60 seconds would show it wasn't one.


And how does the Genie get through the Selective Spell Antimagic Field?

Which is up all of what, 4 hours each assuming CL 25? So if the caster is willing to burn 6 7th level+ slots a day, they can keep that up until they run out of spell slots and then have to rest for 8 hours.


That's presuming your Assassin can get close enough. How does said Assassin get close enough, especially considering it's probably an Astral Projection/Clone etc.

How do you guarantee this Wizard never interacts with anyone ever again? If the Wizard is known for Astral Projecting, use a Silver Sword. Technically the Clone is in a lab, you'd still be killing the actual Wizard. This is also not an option for all the specialists and master specialists who ditched Necromancy.

edit: In any event, provide as many specifics as you can, and a method can be worked out to kill said Wizard.

[tyckspoon]

My question is more fundamentally aimed at what you'd have to do with base class design for "mundane" classes to make, say, the under-this-paradigm-revised Fighter play on that level.


Time of Battle goes some way to equalizing combat influence, but I think ultimately you can't just look at improving the 'mundane' classes, not if you want them to be something that still has recognizable roots as a D&D Fighter/Ranger/Whatever.. By the time you've created a Fighter with as much power, control, influence, and narrative shaping ability as a Wizard, you're only a couple of steps away from playing Exalted. So at some point your paradigm also had to include cutting back the casters.

[georgie_leech]

These settings have mutually exclusive features. The way monsters behave, what happens if/when someone dies, etc... How do you account for that without direct DM input?



Are you actually arguing with the guy who created the setting about what the rules for the setting are? :smallconfused:

[Pickford]

Are you actually arguing with the guy who created the setting about what the rules for the setting are? :smallconfused:

If he makes claims that can't be true at the same time, then I want to know which one is correct. :smallsigh:

For example, what happens when a character dies depends on the setting. These are mutually exclusive things, I just want to know which one he's saying takes hold.

[georgie_leech]

If he makes claims that can't be true at the same time, then I want to know which one is correct. :smallsigh:

For example, what happens when a character dies depends on the setting. These are mutually exclusive things, I just want to know which one he's saying takes hold.

He's not saying that everything from every setting is part of Tippyverse. He's saying that characters are not restricted by setting-specific material. A character can take Faerun feats along with Eberron Prestige classes just fine. Whether not believing in a god sends you to the Wall of the Fathless or does nothing at all has no bearing on whether a Wizard can become Immune to Poison. If you're honestly interested in learning about the setting as opposed to the rules, try looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007) instead.

[Rubik]

Are you actually arguing with the guy who created the setting about what the rules for the setting are? :smallconfused:You're talking to someone who thinks that partially charged wands are why monks should be considered on par with wizards.

[Pickford]

He's not saying that everything from every setting is part of Tippyverse. He's saying that characters are not restricted by setting-specific material. A character can take Faerun feats along with Eberron Prestige classes just fine. Whether not believing in a god sends you to the Wall of the Fathless or does nothing at all has no bearing on whether a Wizard can become Immune to Poison. If you're honestly interested in learning about the setting as opposed to the rules, try looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007) instead.

Nothing in there about feats or mixing and matching specific setting things:

1. Epic Magic does not exist, it’s way too game breaking to try to make any setting that can work with it.
2. The deities are mostly silent
3. Everything else is pretty much as RAW (excluding some of the truly screwy things like drowning resurrections)

I have nothing against doing that, it's just not there.

If we could be more specific (Whom is this Wizard? Race, level, any templates, known modus operandi.) we can figure out how to kill them.

[Ksstaritixtl]

Whom is this Wizard?

Isn't "whom" the objective form, while wizard in your sentence is the subject of the sentence?

[Drachasor]

If he makes claims that can't be true at the same time, then I want to know which one is correct. :smallsigh:

For example, what happens when a character dies depends on the setting. These are mutually exclusive things, I just want to know which one he's saying takes hold.

Spelljammer and Planescape offer plenty of ways to explain this sort of thing. So it is far from impossible.

[Norin]

Pickford arguing with Tippy about Tippy's own things.
I'm here for the drama.
...Or was Pickford just banned? :smalleek:

Anyways, i kinda like TO discussions and schroedingers wizards and all that. But these threads just end up being "Nuh huuh! Nobody can beat a wizard!" -And that's really getting old. :smallannoyed:

How 'bout a high level "tippyverse druid" with caster focus?
Do you do Druids Tippy? Any crazy shenanigans there that does not involve factotum 8, psionics, etc?

[The Random NPC]

Isn't "whom" the objective form, while wizard in your sentence is the subject of the sentence?

Yes, good rule of thumb, if you can replace "whom" with "him/her" or "who" with "he/she", and it still makes sense, it's correct.

[Ksstaritixtl]

Yes, good rule of thumb, if you can replace "whom" with "him/her" or "who" with "he/she", and it still makes sense, it's correct.

You don't need a rule of thumb if German is your native language.

[eggynack]

...Or was Pickford just banned? :smalleek:

Holy crap, yes. That was an unexpected thing... kinda. Forum discussions will likely proceed in a less roundabout and pointless way, but I can't say that I won't miss these threads. I certainly had fun with them.


How 'bout a high level "tippyverse druid" with caster focus?
Y'know, I've actually been thinking about this, and we discussed it tangentially in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325042), and I'm beginning to suspect that the optimal druid build, outside of planar shepherds, includes a contemplative dip for the spell domain. It just fills so many gaps in druid casting, and it does so in such a perfect way. I think the best way to enter (with the issue being knowledge (religion)) might be dipping holt warden, particularly because I think that you can stick the spell domain spells into the plant domain slots. I'll have to confirm that though.

[Aquillion]

Killing wizards in the Tippyverse isn't dramatically harder than killing optimized, paranoid wizards elsewhere. I mean, that makes it horribly tough, yes, but that's not your real concern. The problem is what happens afterwards.

What makes the Tippyverse distinct is that the wizards have taken control of society and banded together into cities. This means that while with planning and patience and care you can probably kill an individual wizard (even the smartest of geniuses makes mistakes sometimes), in doing so you're going to incur the wrath of many other wizards, all with vast resources and a desire to make an example out of you so nobody gets the bright idea of trying the same thing.

At that point you will be outnumbered by overwhelmingly powerful wizards and (most importantly by far) will no longer have the advantage of surprise, so I'd say your only real chance of surviving the assassination of a wizard is to have the backing of your own wizardly city-state to protect you. In that respect, think of the Tippyverse as something like real life -- the wizards have established large, powerful governments (they're focused on one city rather than spread out over wide areas, but use magic to make up for the missing infrastructure, farmland, etc.) And just like in real life, you can totally tweak a government's nose if you're clever and careful and plan ahead and hit them unexpectedly, but you're going to spend the rest of your life on the run.

(Also remember that you will need a plan to keep the wizard dead or his buddies will just bring him back.)

On the other hand, this could make a good game if you played it as a magical Cold War scenario and were backed by your own wizardly city-state. That backing will also give you vast resources yourself that will help you in your plan -- a level 20 Ranger is not, obviously, a full caster, but he's still useful to the wizards and will therefore be treated as a valued agent, giving you access to tools and equipment to help you in a mission like this.

[Emperor Tippy]

Pickford arguing with Tippy about Tippy's own things.
I'm here for the drama.
...Or was Pickford just banned? :smalleek:
Yeah, that means responding to him and pointing out his errors is now utterly pointless instead of merely mostly pointless.


Anyways, i kinda like TO discussions and schroedingers wizards and all that. But these threads just end up being "Nuh huuh! Nobody can beat a wizard!" -And that's really getting old. :smallannoyed:
It's also annoying. Plenty of people can beat a wizard. You just don't do it in a straight up arena match.


How 'bout a high level "tippyverse druid" with caster focus?
Do you do Druids Tippy? Any crazy shenanigans there that does not involve factotum 8, psionics, etc?

On occasion I do Druids. I'm actually trying to find a game that will allow me to play a homebrew non casting druid variant as my in person group is pretty much filled up with games at the moment (what with the Shadowrun game and the two D&D games).

One potentially funny thing is to play a Druid (or Cleric) with Schrodinger's Faith. You change your faith to whatever the divine caster you are facing has as their faith before whacking them with Anathema. No Line of Effect limits, no range limitation, and no more divine casting for whomever you dislike.

Being a Druid with Persistent Cast in Stone is hilariously funny. Anyone who meets your eyes turns to stone.

Epidemic is also just nasty. Hit a half dozen or so commoners in a city with it multiple times and watch as the place falls apart. Especially fun if you make it Selective and chose the creature you are casting it on. Typhoid Mary on steroids.

[Norin]

Y'know, I've actually been thinking about this, and we discussed it tangentially in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325042), and I'm beginning to suspect that the optimal druid build, outside of planar shepherds, includes a contemplative dip for the spell domain. It just fills so many gaps in druid casting, and it does so in such a perfect way. I think the best way to enter (with the issue being knowledge (religion)) might be dipping holt warden, particularly because I think that you can stick the spell domain spells into the plant domain slots. I'll have to confirm that though.

Keeping an eye on that thread too, thanks. :smallwink:
Some good ideas there.

Edit


Yeah, that means responding to him and pointing out his errors is now utterly pointless instead of merely mostly pointless.


But he said so many funny things!



It's also annoying. Plenty of people can beat a wizard. You just don't do it in a straight up arena match.


How would you beat your own wizards then? ...if that's even possible to answer.



On occasion I do Druids. I'm actually trying to find a game that will allow me to play a homebrew non casting druid variant as my in person group is pretty much filled up with games at the moment (what with the Shadowrun game and the two D&D games).

One potentially funny thing is to play a Druid (or Cleric) with Schrodinger's Faith. You change your faith to whatever the divine caster you are facing has as their faith before whacking them with Anathema. No Line of Effect limits, no range limitation, and no more divine casting for whomever you dislike.

Being a Druid with Persistent Cast in Stone is hilariously funny. Anyone who meets your eyes turns to stone.

Epidemic is also just nasty. Hit a half dozen or so commoners in a city with it multiple times and watch as the place falls apart. Especially fun if you make it Selective and chose the creature you are casting it on. Typhoid Mary on steroids.

Anathema is nasty - I wonder if you could make a build around it and passing by all the (at least FR specific) drawbacks by diety changing. Would getting yourself mindraped to be utterly convinced of your new faith and believe you always followed said faith work? Or do you need to stuff in atonement and "super strange and holy quests" too?

How do you run effective persist builds as a Druid anyways (that can persist lvl 9's easily)? I never bother with it really because of the lack of DMM and\or prc's like incantantrix and spelldancer and such.

[Eldariel]

Anyways, i kinda like TO discussions and schroedingers wizards and all that. But these threads just end up being "Nuh huuh! Nobody can beat a wizard!" -And that's really getting old. :smallannoyed:

Maybe people are asking the wrong questions. If you want a different answer, the question has to either restrict the world to a place where a Wizard has some exploitable weaknesses or where the target is not a Wizard of limitless power or where the premises are different.

Even a level 13-15 Wizard is obscenely difficult to kill but infinitely more manageable than a level 17+ Wizard with access to literally every spell and resource in the game ('cause stuff like Gate/Shapechange/Ice Assassin produce 0-XP costing Wishes which in turn produce most non-Wizard spells in the game and then you have stuff like Genesis/Hide Life/Time Stop/Instant Refuge/etc.).

Basically, level 17+ Wizard is the ultimate power in the game, not just because of his ridiculous spell list but also because of his access to other spell lists. So trying to kill one of those, it's like trying to kill a God actually using all his abilities. You have to have at least the same set of abilities to really stand a chance. And yes, all other Tier 1 casters can reach the same ceiling, more or less. Others just have less direct access to some of the real good stuff so Wizard is always a bit ahead.

Things like Wild Shape, Animal Companion and company lose all meaning when things like Polymorph Any Object/Shapechange are involved so Druid in particular is a terrible pick for these levels. Even Planar Shepherd merely matches a high optimization Wizard in terms of options (though their Planar Bubbles and Outsider Wildshapes are certainly amazing and the Outsider Wildshape replicates spell-likes so he truly can have everything).


That's why I am (and I would assume most people, who truly know the system are) quite bored of these threads - it's the same song over again. People trying to do something near-impossible with no new ideas; just same, tired, flawed rehashes of the old plans that have been presented and rejected a thousand times.

Why not try something a bit more interesting? Present the restrictions that make your target no longer as hard to kill or present a more interesting target. Don't blame the people answering; the response is directly tied to the question and for these questions, there's really only one answer.

Of course, it would help if people asking the question could go into detail in the first place on their target; here we have a fairly specific question in mind but not enough details to work out anything usable. It feels people who ask these questions usually don't even know why killing a Wizard is so hard, even though there are a hundred threads on the subject.

[ryu]

Maybe people are asking the wrong questions. If you want a different answer, the question has to either restrict the world to a place where a Wizard has some exploitable weaknesses or where the target is not a Wizard of limitless power or where the premises are different.

Even a level 13-15 Wizard is obscenely difficult to kill but infinitely more manageable than a level 17+ Wizard with access to literally every spell and resource in the game ('cause stuff like Gate/Shapechange/Ice Assassin produce 0-XP costing Wishes which in turn produce most non-Wizard spells in the game and then you have stuff like Genesis/Hide Life/Time Stop/Instant Refuge/etc.).

Basically, level 17+ Wizard is the ultimate power in the game, not just because of his ridiculous spell list but also because of his access to other spell lists. So trying to kill one of those, it's like trying to kill a God actually using all his abilities. You have to have at least the same set of abilities to really stand a chance. And yes, all other Tier 1 casters can reach the same ceiling, more or less. Others just have less direct access to some of the real good stuff so Wizard is always a bit ahead.

Things like Wild Shape, Animal Companion and company lose all meaning when things like Polymorph Any Object/Shapechange are involved so Druid in particular is a terrible pick for these levels. Even Planar Shepherd merely matches a high optimization Wizard in terms of options (though their Planar Bubbles and Outsider Wildshapes are certainly amazing and the Outsider Wildshape replicates spell-likes so he truly can have everything).


That's why I am (and I would assume most people, who truly know the system are) quite bored of these threads - it's the same song over again. People trying to do something near-impossible with no new ideas; just same, tired, flawed rehashes of the old plans that have been presented and rejected a thousand times.

Why not try something a bit more interesting? Present the restrictions that make your target no longer as hard to kill or present a more interesting target. Don't blame the people answering; the response is directly tied to the question and for these questions, there's really only one answer.

Of course, it would help if people asking the question could go into detail in the first place on their target; here we have a fairly specific question in mind but not enough details to work out anything usable. It feels people who ask these questions usually don't even know why killing a Wizard is so hard, even though there are a hundred threads on the subject.

This is actually an excellent. Anyone think we could get a thread stickied on why killing the wizard is hard? I mean I know that's around here already, and likely even with a pretty direct title, but a nice sticky that everyone sees automatically could make life so much simpler.

[Kraken]

You're talking to someone who thinks that partially charged wands are why monks should be considered on par with wizards.

Huh? Pickford was Gia? I don't think I ever saw Pickford mention partially charged wands, and frankly I thought Gia was better at monks in general than Pickford anyway. If Pickford was Gia, he actually managed to regress in optimization abilities, strangely.


Holy crap, yes. That was an unexpected thing... kinda. Forum discussions will likely proceed in a less roundabout and pointless way, but I can't say that I won't miss these threads. I certainly had fun with them.


Y'know, I've actually been thinking about this, and we discussed it tangentially in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325042), and I'm beginning to suspect that the optimal druid build, outside of planar shepherds, includes a contemplative dip for the spell domain. It just fills so many gaps in druid casting, and it does so in such a perfect way. I think the best way to enter (with the issue being knowledge (religion)) might be dipping holt warden, particularly because I think that you can stick the spell domain spells into the plant domain slots. I'll have to confirm that though.

Well yeah, I suspect a lot of people would just poke Pickford to see what would come out next.

But as to the spell domain comment, I find that to be a fascinating suggestion. I'll be combing through that thread you linked, I'm most curious for ways to increase the number of times you can cast anyspell each day. Druids already have access to an awesome spell list, throwing in some wizard casting is pretty darned tempting for a class that I normally don't multiclass out of.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's why I am (and I would assume most people, who truly know the system are) quite bored of these threads - it's the same song over again. People trying to do something near-impossible with no new ideas; just same, tired, flawed rehashes of the old plans that have been presented and rejected a thousand times.
God yes. Or at least present something new, oddball, or interesting.

I mean Factotum 11/ Ardent 2/ Mindbender 1/ Monk 2/ Arcane Archer 2/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 1 is how I would do an anti-caster "Ranger". Mostly because the lulz are grand with the ability to shoot AMF's, Force Cage's, and other area spells from up to 2,000 feet away.

[Brookshw]

Holy crap, yes. That was an unexpected thing... kinda. Forum discussions will likely proceed in a less roundabout and pointless way, but I can't say that I won't miss these threads. I certainly had fun with them.


Same, I can't think of many instances where I agreed with him but he refrained from hostility and they were entertaining. /drain a partially charged wand for a fallen poster.

[eggynack]

But as to the spell domain comment, I find that to be a fascinating suggestion. I'll be combing through that thread you linked, I'm most curious for ways to increase the number of times you can cast anyspell each day. Druids already have access to an awesome spell list, throwing in some wizard casting is pretty darned tempting for a class that I normally don't multiclass out of.
Yeah, druidic prestige classing is something I've been looking into a lot lately, mostly because the topic tends to begin and end with, "Don't." The number of times you can cast anyspell is always going to be somewhat limited by the fact that it's a domain spell, but if there's a way to optimize around that then it's a method that I'm generally unaware of. I also started up a thread hereabouts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321993) awhile back, and that one has other PrC suggestions if that's a thing you're seeking. I'm not sure how much wild shape advancement you can lose before it becomes problematic, but I figure that two or three levels aren't going to kill anyone (except for your enemies).

[Chronos]

Quoth Tippy:

One potentially funny thing is to play a Druid (or Cleric) with Schrodinger's Faith. You change your faith to whatever the divine caster you are facing has as their faith before whacking them with Anathema. No Line of Effect limits, no range limitation, and no more divine casting for whomever you dislike.
But if you can change faiths just for the sake of targeting, then surely your opponent can also change faiths just to get their abilities back. And it also doesn't help against opponents of no particular faith, which don't exist in Faerun (where that spell originated), but do elsewhere.

And, of course, it's also limited to opponents of lower level than you. Any really useful trick ought to be usable against opponents of equal or higher level.

[Emperor Tippy]

But if you can change faiths just for the sake of targeting, then surely your opponent can also change faiths just to get their abilities back. And it also doesn't help against opponents of no particular faith, which don't exist in Faerun (where that spell originated), but do elsewhere.

And, of course, it's also limited to opponents of lower level than you. Any really useful trick ought to be usable against opponents of equal or higher level.

I never said useful, I said funny.

[Zweisteine]

Can't be affected by any spell, except for AoE spells, cast by any caster (This includes Pun-Pun. Yes, really.).

Nope. Pun-Pun has "Any spell cast by you cast automatically effects the anybody you want it to, even if they have an incredibly specific immunity, or any sort of immunity, for that matter."
He also has, as an extraordinary ability, "remove any supernatural, extraordinary, spell-like, or natural ability from any creature within your campaign (no save)."

But AoE spells really are something you have to worry about. Also, AoE save-or -die spells.

[Osiris]

So, my DM decided to give us a campaign in the Tippyverse, as a continuation of the story of one of our characters. We have had one session and that character has lost his all powerful great axe already, my character has died, and the only one who was pretty much unharmed is our own magic user.

In this campaign we started at level 20 and I was playing a ranger, as I love to play dps classes like ranger, rogue, swashbuckler, etc. Since my character has died I want to know how I can build my next character to actually stand a chance in this campaign setting.

Sorry man, but you can't. Those guys, the ones you're fighting right now, They've broken time, mane new planes of existence and infinite money loops, and abuse wishes like nobody's business. They also have, as somebody put it, "Contingencies for their contingencies". You are fighting an impossible battle. . . .

Or are you?

[Eldest]

God yes. Or at least present something new, oddball, or interesting.

I mean Factotum 11/ Ardent 2/ Mindbender 1/ Monk 2/ Arcane Archer 2/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 1 is how I would do an anti-caster "Ranger". Mostly because the lulz are grand with the ability to shoot AMF's, Force Cage's, and other area spells from up to 2,000 feet away.

Ok, I can track pretty much all of that, but what's the one rogue level for?


Nope. Pun-Pun has "Any spell cast by you cast automatically effects the anybody you want it to, even if they have an incredibly specific immunity, or any sort of immunity, for that matter."
He also has, as an extraordinary ability, "remove any supernatural, extraordinary, spell-like, or natural ability from any creature within your campaign (no save)."

But AoE spells really are something you have to worry about. Also, AoE save-or -die spells.

And what creature does he get this effect from?

[russdm]

I am surprised given how Tippyverse seems to work, no one has mentioned the high charismatic naked chick walking around. Or stuff from Book of Erotic Fantasy. With being able to cast alter self and having a high enough charisma, walking around naked would definitely win.

That said, who would to actually play in the Tippyverse besides Tippy? Its sounds completely not fun for mundanes and only fun for Highly Optimized Tier 1s and then the game is boring.

I still love the Charismatic Naked Chick Tour thing.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok, I can track pretty much all of that, but what's the one rogue level for?
Rogue 1 at first level nets you 8 extra skill points and unambiguously gives you sneak attack for Craven. Per strict RAW Cunning Strike doesn't qualify you for it.


I am surprised given how Tippyverse seems to work, no one has mentioned the high charismatic naked chick walking around. Or stuff from Book of Erotic Fantasy. With being able to cast alter self and having a high enough charisma, walking around naked would definitely win.
BoEF is third party. This is also a PG-13 forum. Any discussion of adult content is iffy enough that I just can't be bothered.


That said, who would to actually play in the Tippyverse besides Tippy? Its sounds completely not fun for mundanes and only fun for Highly Optimized Tier 1s and then the game is boring.
Until you reach high levels you don't even have to worry about casters at all, and even then you can choose to avoid them.

[russdm]

BoEF is third party. This is also a PG-13 forum. Any discussion of adult content is iffy enough that I just can't be bothered.


It was not stated anywhere that Tippyverse did not have third party content. So I was unaware.

[Ruethgar]

Feat: Create Wondrous Device, make an anti-magic field to carry around. No need for magic, just some gold and experience.

[Eldariel]

Feat: Create Wondrous Device, make an anti-magic field to carry around. No need for magic, just some gold and experience.

What pray tell is that supposed to accomplish?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Feat: Create Wondrous Device, make an anti-magic field to carry around. No need for magic, just some gold and experience.

Lol No.

Getting past AMF's is trivial for serious casters and having it linked to a destructible item makes it even more tenuous a defense. Nevermind how badly a mundane without proper equipment is gimped by even mid-levels.

I honestly don't understand why people still think a 20ft diameter bubble of "I get no magical equipment" is anything but a good way to get yourself killed.

[georgie_leech]

What pray tell is that supposed to accomplish?

To elaborate on why that doesn't work, all that will do is deny you any means of closing the distance with a Wizard (In Tippyverse, you'll need flight, teleportation, and planar travel at the least), turn off any defenses you have, and it doesn't even completely shut down the wizard; minions are unaffected, and a simple Orb of X with a load of metamagic stapled on goes right through it. Strangely enough, in some way's AMF's screw non-casters more than the casters.

[Ruethgar]

You know if you are using Create Wondrous Device, you can still get magical equivalent equipment, it just can't be dispelled, AMF'd or Disjunctioned. But if you insist on shooting it down, just use Lucid Dreaming and be creative.

[ScionoftheVoid]

The only good offensive use of an Antimagic Field is to pin it to your opponent, and there's still ways around that (Invoke Magic, or whatever that spell is called, is just silly). Otherwise you lock yourself out of the methods you need to keep up with a caster, so you'll never get to them to harm them. My personal preferred method of tagging someone with an AMF is the Eldritch Theurge's Spellblast, because it still lets you be a full caster and only requires a ranged touch attack, but there are doubtless better ways and it's entirely too magically-focused to be helpful to the OP.

[Vaz]

Extended Persisted Selective Spell Anti-magic field, choosing yourself as the target. Means your kit/spellcasting works, but everything else doesn't.

Get within reach. Kill enemy.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You know if you are using Create Wondrous Device, you can still get magical equivalent equipment, it just can't be dispelled, AMF'd or Disjunctioned. But if you insist on shooting it down, just use Lucid Dreaming and be creative.

That equipment doesn't work in an AMF. That's the nature of the effect; nothing magical functions within its boundaries. However, it offers no protection at all from the effects of instantaneous conjurations or terrain alterations that result from magic. It also does nothing to stop magically propelled mundane projectiles such as the focus of a launch bolt spell or random objects hurled by telekinesis.

As a defense it's just got a -lot- of holes in it that most high-op wizards are well aware of and prepared to take advantage.


Extended Persisted Selective Spell Anti-magic field, choosing yourself as the target. Means your kit/spellcasting works, but everything else doesn't.

Get within reach. Kill enemy.

How does this not fit under the heading of "Be a caster to kill a caster?"

Also of interest, if the wizard is astrally projecting rather than being there in person the AMF actually causes his projected form to wink out until you move away. Your defense is protecting him more than it's protecting you. And of course you have to get a silver sword to cut his astral cord as well -if- you think killing him once will be sufficient (clone, crafted contingent true ress, and death pact all say "hi.")

[Ruethgar]

That equipment doesn't work in an AMF. That's the nature of the effect; nothing magical functions within its boundaries. However, it offers no protection at all from the effects of instantaneous conjurations or terrain alterations that result from magic. It also does nothing to stop magically propelled mundane projectiles such as the focus of a launch bolt spell or random objects hurled by telekinesis.

As a defense it's just got a -lot- of holes in it that most high-op wizards are well aware of and prepared to take advantage.

You are Creating Wondrous Devices, not Crafting Wondrous Items, big difference, they are not magical. You still do have to deal with magically crafted physical threats, but you have all of your class levels still available and most or all of your armor slots still open. If you get your hands on true creation, you don't even need to technically spend a single feat on it. Lucid Dreaming is an easy enough way to get a hold of true creation, just make sure it is transdimensional so you aren't actually taking anything out of the dream.

[Rubik]

You are Creating Wondrous Devices, not Crafting Wondrous Items, big difference, they are not magical. You still do have to deal with magically crafted physical threats, but you have all of your class levels still available and most or all of your armor slots still open. If you get your hands on true creation, you don't even need to technically spend a single feat on it. Lucid Dreaming is an easy enough way to get a hold of true creation, just make sure it is transdimensional so you aren't actually taking anything out of the dream.Where can I find Create Wondrous Device? I haven't heard of it before, and Google fails me.

Ze Googlez! Zey do nozzink! [/rehash]

[Aquillion]

That said, who would to actually play in the Tippyverse besides Tippy? Its sounds completely not fun for mundanes and only fun for Highly Optimized Tier 1s and then the game is boring.Did you read it carefully? It's actually totally playable. Several things to keep in mind:

First, the world is primarily arranged into huge wizard-run post-scarcity supercities, with vast wilderness between them ("teleport-over country"). Because movement between cities is accomplished by teleportation, that area between cities is mostly untouched by the wizards. There are smaller towns scattered around there consisting of people who, for whatever reason, were never brought into a magical city-state.

Furthermore, when a wizard from the city-states needs something from the wilderness (artifacts, obscure components, complicated investigations that can't easily be carried out by scrying, etc), it's often going to be cheaper, easier, and safer for them to use their vast resources to pay an adventuring party to get it for them. High-level wizards are too valuable to risk (even if the risk seems low, why send them out if you don't have to?) Golems aren't good at complicated tasks like that and are a lot more expensive to lose than some hired adventurers (who you don't even have to pay if they fail and die!) So it makes total sense for the wizards to employ teams of adventurers as agents, creating a role for player parties.

Within the city-states things are a bit more rigid, but the problem here isn't the fact that wizards are in charge, it's that the city-states are to a great extent civilized -- that is, it's somewhat like the real world in that you probably can't get away with doing most of the things adventurers usually do; and there's less call for adventurers in general. They have their own magical police force to investigate crimes, etc. So unless you want to run an almost entirely political-intrigue-focused game, most of the adventuring will probably take place in the wilderness between cities.

However, one role that adventurers can fulfill inside of city-states is as covert agents and spies in rival cities. Sending your high-level wizards for this is a bad idea because not only does it risk them unnecessarily, but they're probably well-known and therefore impossible to disavow if captured. An adventuring party can slip beneath the radar, and you can disavow all knowledge of their actions if they get caught -- if you're really clever, they were hired by an anonymous Mr. Johnson, so even they don't know who they're working for.

In fact, comparing the Tippyverse to Shadowrun (with the wizards and their city-states as megacorps) is probably a good way to go. It's not for everyone, but it has a lot of potential for fun gameplay.

[Ruethgar]

Ravenloft Legacy of the Blood, Create Device feat choosing Wondrous Item as the creation to emulate, get two chameleon levels and switch it to arms and armor one day, staff the next. As has been noted several times recently you can reach other campaign worlds through various means, so it is plausible that one could attain the Ravenloft feats.

[Vaz]

You were expecting some novel idea outside of max diplomacy for a non-caster to catch up with a full caster? It cannot be done in core outside of the Wizard not taking enough precautions. Tippyverse is simply using the assetts of the D20 Wizard resources to make it capable. Many people think that "Wizards always have the required spell slots" but they do; 42 minutes comparative sleep, and then to prepare them again is all it takes. If you are playing in a game where even 42 minutes is not a viable break point due to the DM throwing CR appropriate encounters every 30 mins, then you're not likely going to survive despite your best efforts in other classes either.

As for having the right spell slot; well thanks to Uncanny Forethought (and the Dark Chaos Shuffle) any such wizard should have it for quick changing. It uses its Wishes (or Arcane Disciple to gain Miracle) as an SLA ability to call forth Body Outside Body Clones, which then Persist, and use their SLA Wish/Miracles to do whatever. With Contingent Spells placed on them to return to the Wizard who will then Mindrape to learn all there is to know without expending any actual resources. Alternatively Ice Assassins Mindraped perform similar jobs.

Even lucid dreaming is unlikely to work as they probably have some form of defense against the elemental damage up. They're 50+ Int hypothetical wizards who've evolved into that through necessity. They not only likely have enough skill points to at least spare on getting a rough defense against it, but know of its effects as well.

I'd just like to point out my idea of a Tippyverse Wizard is just that; a Wiz 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5

There is very little reason for a Wizard to not proceed in that manner.

Any problems that the Wizard has are changed with a casting of Limited Wish to PsyRef any of the relevant parts are done ASAP (including which school is banned by Incantatrix) or Dark Chaos Shuffle.

[georgie_leech]

Where can I find Create Wondrous Device? I haven't heard of it before, and Google fails me.

Ze Googlez! Zey do nozzink! [/rehash]

The only thing I can find related to Pathfinder is this homebrew (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?47188-Tinker-Revised) and a reference to it in a /tg archive. Googling "Create Wondrous Device" with quotes gets all of 9 results, so if there is another source, it seems to be very obscure. Add me to the list of people curious about this Feat.

EDIT: Attempting to find details of this feat, given the previous clarification.

[Vaz]

Probably means item, considering they're referring to Custom Items.

[Ruethgar]

You don't Lucid Dream them into the Dreamheart to die of elemental damage, that is too easy to defend against. You lucid dream a level X plant creature(or god) into your dreamscape under your control and then have him trans dimensional spell(or alter reality) through a gate he conjures throwing 2 twined repeated spells every perceived round in its time stop with a x10 planar time quality. Somewhat near the be a caster to beat a caster bit, but you aren't actually the caster. Doable by a level one human factotum. If you don't want to make an NPC, make a building out of trans dimensional spell traps, you can't send the spell flying through as fast, but you still have 40 rounds to his one round before he plane shifts and kills you.

[Eldariel]

Ravenloft Legacy of the Blood, Create Device feat choosing Wondrous Item as the creation to emulate, get two chameleon levels and switch it to arms and armor one day, staff the next. As has been noted several times recently you can reach other campaign worlds through various means, so it is plausible that one could attain the Ravenloft feats.

Isn't that published by Arthaus (White Wolf), rather making it third party tho? I don't think there's any WotC Ravenloft-material aside from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (and even that has entry for Eberron & Forgotten Realms). Only campaign settings WotC has published for 3e in far as I remember are Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron & then Dragonlance Campaign Settings (rest of Dragonlance is by Sovereign Press) & Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (rest of Ravenloft material is by White Wolf).

[ryu]

The wizard has no need for rounds. Contingent planeshifts.

[Rubik]

Ravenloft Legacy of the Blood, Create Device feat choosing Wondrous Item as the creation to emulate, get two chameleon levels and switch it to arms and armor one day, staff the next. As has been noted several times recently you can reach other campaign worlds through various means, so it is plausible that one could attain the Ravenloft feats.From what I can tell, you can only create items with charges, since they run off of batteries that only provide charges for such items. It's not explicitly stated anywhere, but since all devices require charges and charges are used as the magical charge equivalent...

[georgie_leech]

You don't Lucid Dream them into the Dreamheart to die of elemental damage, that is too easy to defend against. You lucid dream a level X plant creature(or god) into your dreamscape under your control and then have him trans dimensional spell(or alter reality) through a gate he conjures throwing 2 twined repeated spells every perceived round in its time stop with a x10 planar time quality. Somewhat near the be a caster to beat a caster bit, but you aren't actually the caster. Doable by a level one human factotum. If you don't want to make an NPC, make a building out of trans dimensional spell traps, you can't send the spell flying through as fast, but you still have 40 rounds to his one round before he plane shifts and kills you.

Where do you get the idea that you can create traps or creatures with Lucid Dreaming? :smallconfused:

[jedipotter]

Of course, it would help if people asking the question could go into detail in the first place on their target; here we have a fairly specific question in mind but not enough details to work out anything usable. It feels people who ask these questions usually don't even know why killing a Wizard is so hard, even though there are a hundred threads on the subject.

I'd like to see this too. After all most of the threads like this fall into the loop of: Someone comes up with a way to kill a protected wizard. Someone else reads the idea, comes up with a counter and defense and then says the wizard did it retroactively before first person tried their idea.

Though I'd say most of the defenses only work if your doing some odd ''by the game rules'' sort of thing. If your just going to say ''Game Wizard Character does this'' then it gets kinda pointless. But it is Roll vs. Role. Or Game vs. Reality. See it is easy to say that a wizard spends 24/7 shapechanged into a undead zhoar on a demiplane with blah, blah, blah whatever. And sure by the rules the ''wizard character A '' could do that.

But it is not much of a life. The extreme you'd need to go to would invalidate any normal sort of life. It is easy to say ''wizard character A'' kills themselves and becomes undead. But being undead costs a lot of real life. And sure you can dominate a city and have everyone do everything you want....but it won't be real. It's cheating. Mundane people can get whole cities to follow them, but you can't without cheating magic. And sure you can make a magic trap that makes ''food'', and another trap that makes ''entertainment'' and maybe even one that makes ''happiness''. So all you need to do is touch your trap and be whatever you want to be. You could even make a magic trap to make yourself forget that you can't do things the real mundane way and must use magic to cheat. You can't have real mundane happiness in your life, but you can have artificial happiness at the touch of a box.

And sure you could have the whole world as a marble in your pocket...but then what?

[Zanos]

I'd like to see this too. After all most of the threads like this fall into the loop of: Someone comes up with a way to kill a protected wizard. Someone else reads the idea, comes up with a counter and defense and then says the wizard did it retroactively before first person tried their idea.

Though I'd say most of the defenses only work if your doing some odd ''by the game rules'' sort of thing. If your just going to say ''Game Wizard Character does this'' then it gets kinda pointless. But it is Roll vs. Role. Or Game vs. Reality. See it is easy to say that a wizard spends 24/7 shapechanged into a undead zhoar on a demiplane with blah, blah, blah whatever. And sure by the rules the ''wizard character A '' could do that.

But it is not much of a life. The extreme you'd need to go to would invalidate any normal sort of life. It is easy to say ''wizard character A'' kills themselves and becomes undead. But being undead costs a lot of real life. And sure you can dominate a city and have everyone do everything you want....but it won't be real. It's cheating. Mundane people can get whole cities to follow them, but you can't without cheating magic. And sure you can make a magic trap that makes ''food'', and another trap that makes ''entertainment'' and maybe even one that makes ''happiness''. So all you need to do is touch your trap and be whatever you want to be. You could even make a magic trap to make yourself forget that you can't do things the real mundane way and must use magic to cheat. You can't have real mundane happiness in your life, but you can have artificial happiness at the touch of a box.

And sure you could have the whole world as a marble in your pocket...but then what?

“Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.”
:smallwink:

[Drachasor]

I'd like to see this too. After all most of the threads like this fall into the loop of: Someone comes up with a way to kill a protected wizard. Someone else reads the idea, comes up with a counter and defense and then says the wizard did it retroactively before first person tried their idea.

Though I'd say most of the defenses only work if your doing some odd ''by the game rules'' sort of thing. If your just going to say ''Game Wizard Character does this'' then it gets kinda pointless. But it is Roll vs. Role. Or Game vs. Reality. See it is easy to say that a wizard spends 24/7 shapechanged into a undead zhoar on a demiplane with blah, blah, blah whatever. And sure by the rules the ''wizard character A '' could do that.

But it is not much of a life. The extreme you'd need to go to would invalidate any normal sort of life. It is easy to say ''wizard character A'' kills themselves and becomes undead. But being undead costs a lot of real life. And sure you can dominate a city and have everyone do everything you want....but it won't be real. It's cheating. Mundane people can get whole cities to follow them, but you can't without cheating magic. And sure you can make a magic trap that makes ''food'', and another trap that makes ''entertainment'' and maybe even one that makes ''happiness''. So all you need to do is touch your trap and be whatever you want to be. You could even make a magic trap to make yourself forget that you can't do things the real mundane way and must use magic to cheat. You can't have real mundane happiness in your life, but you can have artificial happiness at the touch of a box.

And sure you could have the whole world as a marble in your pocket...but then what?

A lot of what you wrote could equally be levelled at things like Washing Machines, Pizza Delivery, and Cell Phones. Making a lot of boring crap easier doesn't make life mean less, it means you have more time to spend on what matters to you.

Creating a demiplane to secure yourself, a city of people you can trust, your loved ones, etc in doesn't mean you all can't have a meaningful life. Securing their safety via magic and your safety in combat via magic similarly doesn't mean anything bad. If anything, this enables you to have a BETTER life. Just because your "cheating" is better than the guy with the pointy stick (also cheating), doesn't mean it is worth less. Just the opposite.

The biggest problem a martial character is going to have against a really high level wizard is just making sure the entity he killed was actually the wizard's real body. Even with that, ensuring there isn't a backup Clone or some other rezzing system is going to be almost impossible for someone without heavy magic. End result of any confrontation, is that the spellcaster either wins or knows enough about who fought them to win next time. That's the bottom line at level 20+ when you have casters against non-casters.

[TuggyNE]

Mundane people can get whole cities to follow them, but you can't without cheating magic.

Pretty sure the only way mundanes can do that is with cheating. Or at least, that's how it looks from here, because I don't have the skills needed.

[Zale]

Only a ninja wizard can kill a ninja wizard.

It's nearly impossible to kill a high level magic user in tippyverse without using magic in some form or fashion.

[Darrin]

This is actually an excellent. Anyone think we could get a thread stickied on why killing the wizard is hard? I mean I know that's around here already, and likely even with a pretty direct title, but a nice sticky that everyone sees automatically could make life so much simpler.

I'm not sure a sticky would really cover it, although the "Linear Warrior, Quadratic Wizard" trope is kind of pervasive outside of the whole "Wizards Always Win" arguments. The argument is usually trumped by someone saying, "Well, in MY game, wizards can't/don't do that!" Which works for that game, and that can perhaps be expanded to a more general level where the majority of D&D campaigns are not instantly ruined by an NPC wizard unleashing an army of ice assassin aleax astral projection spell clock clones that immediately dominate and mindrape everything in the universe.

As far as a Tippyverse wizard goes, the untrumpable card is probably some sort of permanent or 24-hour foresight cast in a genesis demiplane with a series of nested contingency spells to immediately throw the wizard into a maximized time stop where he can use divination spells to narrow down the attacker, method, etc. If need be, the wizard can set up a spell clock to cast a 100% divination every round to determine if he is going to be attacked, or if someone has found a way to break through his defenses. If so, then the wizard will zip off to the Far Realms, wait until time loops around until just before the person discovered a way to defeat the wizard, and then wipe out this miscreant from the fabric of reality by whatever method the wizard deems most expedient. Even if that fails and someone manages to actually kill the real wizard, there's a trick with schism/astral seed where if the wizard dies, he can restore the entire world from a "Save Point", find out who ganked him, and come up with another method to prevent his death. It's a "P versus NP problem" where the wizard gets to write the source code before you do.

Tleilaxu_Ghola tried to solve this problem with his Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) build as an answer to "What could stop Pun-Pun from happening?" but ran into issues with the whole Wibbly-Wobbly-Timey-Wimey-Ball-Thingy (if the Terminator can move back through time, so can Pun-Pun, so if Pun-Pun has already happened, then Pun-Pun can stop the Terminator from happening). So he started working on the Neo-Terminator to fix that, which became his "Temporal Workshop: Finding Time-tricks to Kill Pun-Pun (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717224217/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=673975)" thread. And while that thread has some interesting ideas, he never finished the Neo-Terminator build, because the solution to the "P versus NP problem" is basically "don't attempt to solve this problem".

So... in a nutshell, if you read through that Temporal Workshop thread and don't understand half of it, then you shouldn't even think about trying to take on a Tippyverse wizard. (They can read your thoughts, after all. Well, not that they're really "your" thoughts all that much...)

[Scow2]

So, it sounds like low-level characters and noncasters play in the Tippyverse like it's Shadowrun... but high-level characters play as a Not-Apocalyptic version of Eclipse Phase? That's kinda what it's sounding like to me...

[Aquillion]

So, it sounds like low-level characters and noncasters play in the Tippyverse like it's Shadowrun... but high-level characters play as a Not-Apocalyptic version of Eclipse Phase? That's kinda what it's sounding like to me...A few things I didn't mention when comparing it to Shadowrun, though:

First, it's a nicer place to live, for several reasons. The big one is that anyone can become a wizard, and the major city-states have a strong incentive to both raise loyal citizens and provide education to allow as many of those citizens as possible to become wizards and join the elite themselves. Unlike real-world empires, the city-states don't benefit from a large underclass; they don't need low-paid farmers or crafters to provide their basic infrastructure (not many of them, anyway), because they have a post-scarcity economy. Ideally, they want everyone trustworthy to be a high-level wizard.

(The cities that don't share this mindset and which don't make it easy for citizens to become wizards are going to rapidly be overwhelmed by the power of the ones which do, because in a fight between wizards the most important thing is action economy, which you get by putting more wizards on the field. And more wizards allow a city to crank out more of everything in peacetime -- more magic traps to produce things, more golems for defense, more scrying for intel, more teleportation for trade, more magical research to make them even better at everything else, etc.)

Of course this isn't universal, and some city-states are probably dystopias where one wizard (or a small circle of them) keeps everyone else of importance under mindrape or whatever. But those are assumed to be the minority; wizards naturally benefit from cooperation, after all. So if your circle has full casters in it, they're likely to be treated a bit like young princelings or the like -- in the long run they're on a path to joining the elite themselves, rather than just being entirely disposable tools. Using them for dangerous missions could be seen as a way of testing their loyalty or something.

So in some ways the Tippyverse is almost utopian. Outside of cities it is less utopian, of course, and exactly how you want to portray it depends on the tone of your game -- it can contain everything from untouched wilderness and frontier cities trying to establish themselves, to blasted-out wastelands caused by previous magical wars. (I imagine that at least a few cities have managed to get themselves utterly destroyed, and are now cursed nightmarish ruins haunted by ravenous undead, insane defense golems, angry wizard-ghosts, mad liches and the like.)

[(Un)Inspired]

How I hadn't checked out this thread until now because I though the answer was obvious but I can't believe that Pickford got banned.

I'm shocked! Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

[Dalebert]

I can't believe that Pickford got banned.

Does anyone know why? I kinda want to know so I can avoid whatever it was.

[Norin]

Does anyone know why? I kinda want to know so I can avoid whatever it was.

Read the rules and follow them?

[Particle_Man]

I believe one of the premises in the Tippyverse is that the gods don't interfere too much in mortal affairs, allowing for mortals to mess about with infinite loops, etc.

A long term quest to get the (statless) Gods wayyyy more involved in mortal affairs, and ending the "Tippyness" of the Tippyverse by divine fiat, might be a way to go. Presumably, Magic users would still be powerful, but they would not be absolutely unbeatable anymore.

Mind you, that would be exchanging one set of overlords for another.

[TuggyNE]

Does anyone know why? I kinda want to know so I can avoid whatever it was.

Got over 300 infraction points, a pastime I cannot recommend to the discerning poster.

Exactly how this was accomplished I'm not sure, but I'd assume it involved a fair number of rules violations over the last year.

[Bickerstaff]

I mean Factotum 11/ Ardent 2/ Mindbender 1/ Monk 2/ Arcane Archer 2/ Fighter 1/ Rogue 1 is how I would do an anti-caster "Ranger". Mostly because the lulz are grand with the ability to shoot AMF's, Force Cage's, and other area spells from up to 2,000 feet away.

This sounds interesting, but I can't quite grasp how the pieces fit together (I'm kinda bad at seeing how builds come together). Can anyone, Tippy or not, explain how all this works?

[Endarire]

Iron Heart Surge the problem from existence!

[Vaz]

You don't Lucid Dream them into the Dreamheart to die of elemental damage, that is too easy to defend against. You lucid dream a level X plant creature(or god) into your dreamscape under your control and then have him trans dimensional spell(or alter reality) through a gate he conjures throwing 2 twined repeated spells every perceived round in its time stop with a x10 planar time quality. Somewhat near the be a caster to beat a caster bit, but you aren't actually the caster. Doable by a level one human factotum. If you don't want to make an NPC, make a building out of trans dimensional spell traps, you can't send the spell flying through as fast, but you still have 40 rounds to his one round before he plane shifts and kills you.

Contingent Celerity?

[Drachasor]

I'm not sure a sticky would really cover it, although the "Linear Warrior, Quadratic Wizard" trope is kind of pervasive outside of the whole "Wizards Always Win" arguments. The argument is usually trumped by someone saying, "Well, in MY game, wizards can't/don't do that!" Which works for that game, and that can perhaps be expanded to a more general level where the majority of D&D campaigns are not instantly ruined by an NPC wizard unleashing an army of ice assassin aleax astral projection spell clock clones that immediately dominate and mindrape everything in the universe.

A non-caster is going to have a really, really hard time trying to kill a Wizard 20 that just uses Clone, Contingency, and Astral Projection.

There's lots of core stuff to add on to that like Magic Jar which would make the fight even tougher. And again, even if they "win" they don't kill the wizard.

And frankly, it can be hard to pin down a guy that can be on another plane or planet as a standard action.

So even without Tippyverse shenanigans, casters still dominate. I'll grant a Cleric or Druid would be easier to kill, but non-casters would still need overwhelming numbers.

[Vaz]

Clerics with enough optimizing can get somewhat close. DMM and Dark Chaos Shuffle for all metamagic for free. Miracle for 7th level spells and powers and under; this includes PsyRef so you can choose your relevant Domains each day, along with typical planar travel abuses.

[Erik Vale]

Any wizard who gets killed by lucid dreaming is an idiot and should be treated as such. If he hasn't bypassed his need for sleep by the point of becoming a high-level tippy-wizard he deserves to be lucid-dreamed into the ground.

That, and lucid dream kills are funny.

[Drachasor]

Clerics with enough optimizing can get somewhat close. DMM and Dark Chaos Shuffle for all metamagic for free. Miracle for 7th level spells and powers and under; this includes PsyRef so you can choose your relevant Domains each day, along with typical planar travel abuses.

Definitely. I'm just pointing out that the "optimizing" a Wizard's survival needs is taking some wizard spells from the PHB and using them almost EXACTLY as intended (Astral Projection to make a spare body is not entirely intended). In other words, it's really, really, really easy to be extremely hard to permanently kill. Nothing fancy is needed.

Clerics and Druids have to jump through hoops to get the same, though it is possible.

[Zweisteine]

And what creature does he get this effect from?

Manipulate Form (Su): ... grant the target an extraordinary ability or remove one from it.
Note that it does not say "an extraordinary ability that another creature already has."

In any case, he grants himself Epic Spellcasting, and makes spells for whatever he wants.

[maximus25]

Note that it does not say "an extraordinary ability that another creature already has."

In any case, he grants himself Epic Spellcasting, and makes spells for whatever he wants.

Not in the Tippyverse he doesn't.

[shaikujin]

Random thoughts when reading this thread:

1) OMG Pickford was banned!?

2) I am very happy to see so many folks play Shadowrun :D I have loved SR since the 1st edition. Had to buy a lot of D6 dice back then though.

3) Naked hot chick/diplomancer references reminds me of the Pornomancer build in SR

4) As to the OP, to beat magic users in Tippyverse, I'd guess a way to negate or equalize the magical advantages is needed.

Possibly by playing a psionic class like Ardent or Psion/Erudite.

Engage (or get as a minion, or rebuild) an STP Erudite & Wyrm Wizard to convert all arcane & divine spells to powers and Pychic Chirugery to the Psion.

One of the spells would be a Psionic version of Planar Bubble that creates a bubble to a Dead Magic (but not dead psionics) plane.

Psionic version of Dweomer Of Transference would be nice too.

Most magic spells, effects and items are suppressed or do not affect the psionic character in his bubble due to the Dead Magic Zone. But all the Psion's powers and psionic items still work.

Is this workable?

If the magic users' arcane/divine spells, spell effects and items are suppressed, then even a gish or melee character with such a bubble should stand a chance.

Of course, that will then result in a new age in Tippyverse where everyone is a psion instead of wizard (or the wizards will at least have mental pinnacle running).

Edit: Or the wizards get Planar Bubbles to Dead Psionic Zones.

[LibraryOgre]

How I hadn't checked out this thread until now because I though the answer was obvious but I can't believe that Pickford got banned.

I'm shocked! Shocked! Well, not that shocked.


Does anyone know why? I kinda want to know so I can avoid whatever it was.

The Mod Wonder: Please do not discuss banned posters. If you have general questions about the banning process, contact me or another mod, but we cannot discuss individual cases (except, of course, your own).

[Ruethgar]

Where do you get the idea that you can create traps or creatures with Lucid Dreaming? :smallconfused:

The skill explicitly calls out vegetation and building architecture as two things you can control. Plant creatures are vegetation and it is very easy to incorporate traps as part of the architecture of a building.

Also, Ravenloft is officially licensed by Wizards of the Coast which is good enough for me and my DM, though it may not be for others.

I will concede that Create Device is not the best substitute for magic items, but it can work. One troubling bit about it is that you can get locked into the same arms race that casters get into and you really don't get anywhere if you both plan ahead.

[georgie_leech]

The skill explicitly calls out vegetation and building architecture as two things you can control. Plant creatures are vegetation and it is very easy to incorporate traps as part of the architecture of a building.



The same sentence also calls these out as innocuous changes. It is a strange definition of innocuous that includes plant gods and deadly traps.

[druid91]

You beat magic users in Tippyverse by being a more skilled magic user. That's it. There is no plan B. Either you're a better magic user than the one you want to fight or you're dead.

This leads to what amounts to an -immensely- complex chess game, wherein the outcome is decided before the first spell cast in the presence of the foe is even prepared. There are long periods of gathering information, learning about your foe and his capabilities, and how to get to him past his non-personal defenses punctuated by short bursts of acting directly to execute the plan that all that planning and study results in.

It's a largely different game from typical D&D.

More like trenchcoat shadowrun than typical D&D.

[Emperor Tippy]

More like trenchcoat shadowrun than typical D&D.

The only good Shadowrun. :smallwink:

*seriously has never understood how Pink Mohawk appeals to anyone*

[The Random NPC]

The only good Shadowrun. :smallwink:

*seriously has never understood how Pink Mohawk appeals to anyone*

Because of the boom.

[kkplx]

Got over 300 infraction points, a pastime I cannot recommend to the discerning poster.

Exactly how this was accomplished I'm not sure, but I'd assume it involved a fair number of rules violations over the last year.

And i am scared about my one warning for saying "don't be an a*****e".

Wow.

Also, nice read, tippy (and everyone else here) blowing my mind about wizards as usual =D

[Emperor Tippy]

Because of the boom.

Trenchcoat can and should have plenty of boom. The boom is just no longer random and done for the lulz but because the boom serves a greater purpose than making pretty explosions.

[Zweisteine]

Not in the Tippyverse he doesn't.

He gets Salient Divine Abilities that let him screw with stuff.
He cheeses his way into getting a way to do whatever he wants.
He homebrews spells that specifically target anything.

Alternatively, he leaves the Tippyverse, and gets epic magic. That would totally work.
Oh crap I'm losing!

[Vaz]

Messi is too good at football, how do I beat him? Play basketball instead, is basically what you are saying.

[Ruethgar]

The same sentence also calls these out as innocuous changes. It is a strange definition of innocuous that includes plant gods and deadly traps.

It doesn't say anything about the previously stated characteristics being innocuous, it just strongly suggests that they are supposed to be.

[Frosty]

You beat magic users in Tippyverse by being a more skilled magic user. That's it. There is no plan B. Either you're a better magic user than the one you want to fight or you're dead.

This leads to what amounts to an -immensely- complex chess game, wherein the outcome is decided before the first spell cast in the presence of the foe is even prepared. There are long periods of gathering information, learning about your foe and his capabilities, and how to get to him past his non-personal defenses punctuated by short bursts of acting directly to execute the plan that all that planning and study results in.

It's a largely different game from typical D&D.Sounds pretty much like a typical Shadowrun. :smallbiggrin:

Gather Info. Case the joint. Execute the plan quickly, and almost always, violently. Get out.

EDIT:
More like trenchcoat shadowrun than typical D&D.Damn, swordsage'd

[Lord Ruby34]

There is, of course, only one way to kill a Tippyverse Wizard. You challenge him to an arm wrestling competition, and the loser agrees to be executed. Now, this wizard must be not only very arrogant to accept, and be very honorable not to back out if he loses, but be generous enough to let you pick the field, which needs to be a dead magic zone.

Then use your giant thews to be him and strangle him to death.

Sure, he'll be back up in a few seconds, but you at least managed to kill him.

[Phelix-Mu]

I suggest using riddle-off or a joke-telling competition to beat a magic user in Tippyverse.

Indeed, in Tippyverse, the standoff between the mighty wizard-rulers is such that a non-combat competition is rather more meaningful than many of the wars that go on (which are pretty much Spy v Spy meets rocket tag meets initiative optimization meets orbital bombardment). So, have a chess match, a game of cards, or other similar sporting event.

I promise that this method will be much less taxing than trying to "out-op" a well-done Tippyverse magic user that has any measure of power.

[Aquillion]

He gets Salient Divine Abilities that let him screw with stuff.
He cheeses his way into getting a way to do whatever he wants.
He homebrews spells that specifically target anything.

Alternatively, he leaves the Tippyverse, and gets epic magic. That would totally work.
Oh crap I'm losing!I think the Tippyverse generally assumes no complete setting-smasher tricks like Pun-Pun, since if you allow them then you don't end up with an interesting setting, you end up with an omnipotent kobold foot stamping on a human face, forever.

[Baroknik]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but I think Vecna-blooded would be required.

[Vaz]

There is, of course, only one way to kill a Tippyverse Wizard. You challenge him to an arm wrestling competition, and the loser agrees to be executed. Now, this wizard must be not only very arrogant to accept, and be very honorable not to back out if he loses, but be generous enough to let you pick the field, which needs to be a dead magic zone.
Invoke Magic.


Then use your giant thews to be him and strangle him to death.
If you attempt to cheat/attack him in this area, he can simply Invoke Magic + escape. And that's assuming as well that the Wizard doesn't recognise that all of his magic protections have been suppressed, and realise he's walking into a trap, and say "sack that I'm off"

Not to mention why he would agree to such a thing in the first place. He doesn't protect himself to be able to survive against Great Wyrm Dragons or the greater powers of the Abyss/Hells, only to have some chump Barbarian challenge him to a life or death duel and accept.

[Lord Ruby34]

Invoke Magic.


If you attempt to cheat/attack him in this area, he can simply Invoke Magic + escape. And that's assuming as well that the Wizard doesn't recognise that all of his magic protections have been suppressed, and realise he's walking into a trap, and say "sack that I'm off"

Not to mention why he would agree to such a thing in the first place. He doesn't protect himself to be able to survive against Great Wyrm Dragons or the greater powers of the Abyss/Hells, only to have some chump Barbarian challenge him to a life or death duel and accept.

Maybe I should have put that one in blue text.

[eggynack]

Maybe I should have put that one in blue text.
P'shaw. Everyone knows that the sanctity of an arm wrestling contest in the Tippyverse is unassailable, and that casters who would otherwise be prepared for any situation often let down their guard in honor of the event. It's as much a fundamental part of the Tippyverse as teleportation circles or traps of create food and water.

[Vaz]

Maybe I should have put that one in blue text.

Halfway through I thought, nah, he can't be serious, am I falling for bait here? And lo'...

Well, this is embarrassing.

[Lord Ruby34]

Halfway through I thought, nah, he can't be serious, am I falling for bait here? And lo'...

Well, this is embarrassing.

Don't worry about it. Intent is easy to miss in the internet. Actually the sad part is that isn't even necessarily the worst suggestion in this thread...

[Kraklen88]

I am not the best with dnd 3.5 or the most familiar with the Tippyverse.

That being said, I would probably:

1) Make a magic user or something with a ton of immunities, multiple kinds of attacks, and tons of options. So a magic user. Psionics comes to mind, especially if your DM doesn't equate SR to PR. True Mind Swap with a swarm and make it permanent. Or with a shade steel golem. Tons of ways to make that work so I am not going to list them here.

2) Do nothing illegal and everything in public. That way if you piss something off, hope that the city magic users/defenses come to your rescue before you die.

3) Tippyverse is not Coruscant. There are plenty of areas outside the cities were you are "safe" from magic users. Cause a ruckus out there. Or go to another plane/universe.

4) Prepare to die a lot.

That's what I would do.

[georgie_leech]

It doesn't say anything about the previously stated characteristics being innocuous, it just strongly suggests that they are supposed to be.

Squinting hard, it's debateable, fine. But all it takes is for a Wizard to invest a single point into the skill and wear a +15 competence whatever (lower for every point of WIS bonus) before sleeping and they can immediately undo anything you just did, if not decide "That plant god is actually my minion!" I don't think Lucid Dreaming works on any Wizard worth assassinating.

[The Shadowmind]

To first beat your enemy you must know your enemy.

This is the enemy:a 20th level wizard in a time-altered demi-plane that only uses astral projection to interact with the outside world. Said wizard using various divination spells each "day" to know what is going to occur each day.

So the first step is to prevent those divination spells from being any use otherwise the plan is already over before it began. The God of Secrets has given us a method to stop that with his Vecna-blooded template[MM5]. To get this without being one of those high and mighty dress wearing fools, True Mind Switch[XPH,SRD] is your friend. In Vecna controlled Greyhawk, you spy on big brother.

So the wizard you are targeting has yet to try to scry on you? Well if he isn't going to do it to you, then do it your self. Once again psionics to the rescue. Metafaculty [XPH,SRD] will be the power of choice to find them. It requires having seen the wizard in some fashion to target them though, but it bypasses pretty much all non-epic methods to block it.

Okay so you know now where this wizard is either from metafaculty or vecna-blooded. But, the location is block by dimensional anchor or some other such effect. The big gun needs to be pulled for this one. Reality Revision, Wish, Miracle. Reality Revision and Wish have clauses to for any creature in any place to any other plane, but they allow for SR/PR and will saves that method. All three have the ability to move you and your allies to any other plane.

And now you are on the enemies home turf. That pesky anti-magic field is being a problem, so how do you solve it? You yell, loudly. IRON HEART SURGE!.[ToB] Use Psychic Renewal and Martial Study[twice] to get access it and make it spammable.

You are 6k exp down before the fight even begins, but you are there.

And now the standard wizard duel with contingencies on both sides and the battle of who has the most I go first buttons begins.

[Sir Chuckles]

So all in all, what I can gather (as the DM of OP), is that I really should drive backwards, roll up the windows, slam the door to the Tippyverse, and put up a sign of "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate", and go back to my regularly scheduled 60% handwritten campaigns.

Especially considering that the highest of powerful characters has amounted to, in order from least to greatest, a Shocktrooper/Dungeoncrasher Fighter, the guy in my sig, a Rogue 4/Sorcerer 12/Duelist 5 Weretiger, and a TWF Greataxe/Fists Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10.

[Aquillion]

To first beat your enemy you must know your enemy.

This is the enemy:a 20th level wizard in a time-altered demi-plane that only uses astral projection to interact with the outside world. Said wizard using various divination spells each "day" to know what is going to occur each day.That's not how the Tippyverse works. It assumes that wizards have banded together in fortified post-scarcity supercities rather than retreating to private demiplanes. (There may still be some in private demiplanes, but it's the wizards who rule the supercities that have the real power.) In fact, my understanding is that there are almost no powerful independent wizards, because the guilds running the supercities will hunt them down and either kill them as an unpredictable threat or force them to join -- as powerful as wizards are, multiple high-level wizards (plus a bunch of mid-level apprentices, plus an army of shadesteel golems and the like) will easily beat one lone high-level wizard, even on his home turf.

Part of the point of the Tippyverse is that a high-level wizard hiding on a private demiplane makes perfect sense for your character if you're one PC exploiting the limits of your powers in a world where nobody else does; but in a world where everyone is using their powers to the fullest, the lone paranoid survivalist wizards are going to lose to the organized form-a-guild-slash-wizard-mafia types.

(And I think the Tippyverse assumes that multiple 'wizard councils' survived the initial conflicts into the modern era mostly because that makes a more interesting setting, although it could have gone either way.)

As I mentioned above, the biggest concern when fighting a wizard in the Tippyverse vs. anywhere else is that they're going to be surrounded by other high-level wizard allies. This requires different strategies, especially if you want to kill them and survive afterwards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So all in all, what I can gather (as the DM of OP), is that I really should drive backwards, roll up the windows, slam the door to the Tippyverse, and put up a sign of "Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate", and go back to my regularly scheduled 60% handwritten campaigns.

Especially considering that the highest of powerful characters has amounted to, in order from least to greatest, a Shocktrooper/Dungeoncrasher Fighter, the guy in my sig, a Rogue 4/Sorcerer 12/Duelist 5 Weretiger, and a TWF Greataxe/Fists Barbarian 10/Frenzied Berserker 10.

Not necessarily.

Just don't make your BBEG one of the walking gods that run the city. Let them take on lesser foes like crime-lords in the city and warlords in the wilds and things like that.

Just because a tippy-wizard is nigh-unbeatable by anything less than one of his own or a similarly optimized T1 or T2 of another class doesn't mean that you can't use the setting. It just means you can't use those characters as BBEG's unless the party is willing to play the game in their world.

The party could be wildlanders dealing with life outside the city and visit the city from time to time if you just want to use the flavor of the setting without going full-tilt unique to tippyverse games. Exiled wizards that don't have access to the information of their city-folk contemporaries can play more at the speed you're accustomed to if you really want a wizard BBEG in the tippyverse that's not a walking engine of bent reality. The party could be members of a criminal or other underground organization in the city and the game would feel a little more shadowrun-like.

Hell, you -could- play wizards at closer to your accustomed level of optimization and only use the mega-city/ wild lands paradigm, since that's the crux of the setting. After all, the tippyverse doesn't happen over-night. Setting the game early in the cycle wouldn't be -that- different from a normal game; the cities are much larger than normal and smaller cities and towns are on the decline and getting from one major city to another is as easy as going to a different district in the same city but it would still be recognizable compared to a more typical game.

[Zanos]

Not necessarily.

Just don't make your BBEG one of the walking gods that run the city. Let them take on lesser foes like crime-lords in the city and warlords in the wilds and things like that.

Just because a tippy-wizard is nigh-unbeatable by anything less than one of his own or a similarly optimized T1 or T2 of another class doesn't mean that you can't use the setting. It just means you can't use those characters as BBEG's unless the party is willing to play the game in their world.

The party could be wildlanders dealing with life outside the city and visit the city from time to time if you just want to use the flavor of the setting without going full-tilt unique to tippyverse games. Exiled wizards that don't have access to the information of their city-folk contemporaries can play more at the speed you're accustomed to if you really want a wizard BBEG in the tippyverse that's not a walking engine of bent reality. The party could be members of a criminal or other underground organization in the city and the game would feel a little more shadowrun-like.

Hell, you -could- play wizards at closer to your accustomed level of optimization and only use the mega-city/ wild lands paradigm, since that's the crux of the setting. After all, the tippyverse doesn't happen over-night. Setting the game early in the cycle wouldn't be -that- different from a normal game; the cities are much larger than normal and smaller cities and towns are on the decline and getting from one major city to another is as easy as going to a different district in the same city but it would still be recognizable compared to a more typical game.
I think that's pretty key to enjoying a tippyverse campaign. If you're playing planescape, people accept that attracting the attention of the Lady of Pain as a PC(or anyone, really) will lead to undesirable things happening to you. Even in other caimpaign settings these sorts of npc's exist who's stat blocks are essentially "Eats 1d4+1 PCs per round", and people are typically okay with that.

If you just accept the rulers of the cities as The Powers That Be and don't screw with them, you can do what you want. You probably wouldn't want to overthrow the Neutral government in any other campaign setting, so it shouldn't really matter. Go find some ruins abandoned in one of the teleportation wars, kill the monsters, and take their stuff.

[Sir Chuckles]

Except for one problem:
Unless they wrte new 20th level characters, their current self-imposed goal is "Destroy civilization".
One PC, Spoony the Bard, hates all magic users. He geniuenly hates the universe, in character. :smallsmile:

Even if I were to write in a crime lord campaign or something similar, a 15ft Barbarian who hates civilization won't stay on track for long. And the second that track has a kink, it's being ripped out of the ground, lit on fire, and danced on.

Granted that's why I play...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Except for one problem:
Unless they wrte new 20th level characters, their current self-imposed goal is "Destroy civilization".
One PC, Spoony the Bard, hates all magic users. He geniuenly hates the universe, in character. :smallsmile:

Even if I were to write in a crime lord campaign or something similar, a 15ft Barbarian who hates civilization won't stay on track for long. And the second that track has a kink, it's being ripped out of the ground, lit on fire, and danced on.

Granted that's why I play...

Yeah, -that- is going to be a problem unless you set it in the very earliest stages of the tippyverse TC changes trade forever cycle, before the wizards start rapidly trading information and become nigh unstoppable; before even the TC wars begin.

OH!

There ya go. Set it just before the first TC war starts. If they do it right they can actually stop the tippyverse from happening..... this time.

[Vaz]

Okay, if we're going to be able beat magic users, what typical things can be done by mundanes that cannot be replicated by Magic? As Wish is effectively a currency, and anything that anyone wants to really do begins with a "Scroll of Shapechange, into Zodar, blah blah", there doesn't seem much. Infinite Wealth is accessible in that manner; 25Kgp items, multiplied by the 1600 Wishes such a thing provides.

As things like Truenaming, Mysteries, Psionics and arguably Maneuvres can be recreated by Wish/Miracle etc (similar layout), it is down to class features. What mundane class features cannot be matched?

Meldshaping is one such thing, but Dark Chaos Shuffle can provide the Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, and Double Chakra. The only one which cannot be got pre-epic is the Soul and Heart Chakra, which is Incarnate only for the Soul, and Totemist+Incarnate for the Heart.

The relevant chakra benefits;
- Lifebond Vestments
-- Hurt self to heal others at will (rather than 1/hour). (Casters can do it better without hurting)
- Necrocarnum Vestments
-- Immune to Stunning and Death (Casters can do it anyway - polymorph into Elemental Type)
- Spellward Shirt
-- Spell Immunity Spell (Casters can obviously do this anyway)
- Strongheart Vest
-- Immune to Energy Drain and Death Effects (Sheltered Vitality)
- Fellmist Robe
-- Provides up to 50% Concealment against adjacent attackers (casters can do this anyway)
- Incarnate Avatar
-- Depends on Alignment. Law provides the rare immunity to Daze. Others are of negligible import. (Casters can do all anyway; immunity to Limited Wish Favour of the Martyr)
- Keeneye Lenses
-- Permanent True Seeing (Casters can do it anyway)
- Necrocarnum Shroud
-- Melee Touch attack 1d4 negative levels, healing self (Enervation can do it at range)
- Planar Chasuble
-- 1/week Gate (Casters can do it more often).
- Blink Shirt
-- Can use Blink (casters can do this anyway)
- Dread Carapace
-- Spell Resistance (casters can do this anyway)
- Shedu Crown
-- Ethereal Jaunt (casters can do it anyway)
- Totem Avatar
-- Damage Reduction 5/magic (casters can do it anyway).

All of the benefits of Incarnum are recreateable by Magic.

I don't know too much about Binding, but many of the lower abilities I know are available by Dark Chaos Shuffling Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige, and the other one which allows 2 abilities to be chosen.

Of the higher level ones, what is or is not available to Binders that Casters cannot recreate? The Binder with Zceryll is frequently recognised as T2, but that is essentially just Summoning Monsters. Casters can already do this, exceeding their abilities (i.e Summon Monster 9 - according to this - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219 - has a comparatively low Challenge Rating, and Gate can happily better it.

A Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 with Shapechange as an SLA, Gate as an SLA, Miracle as an SLA (from Arcane Disciple) can pretty much do whatever it wants; while the ability might cost XP, it just needs to use Miracle to recreate Body Outside Body. That clone can then use the SLA without worry for XP.

The other SLA's, are whatever you want. I like Mind Rape to learn anything about a target (and get it to do anything you want). The other one should be Shapechange (because that gets you Wish as Su). Time Stop, Superior Invisibility, Greater Dimension Jumper etc are all viable options for the last one, although Time Stop is arguably the better of the them.

[Werephilosopher]

No, his Persistent Selective Dweomer of Transference does that.

How exactly does one make Dweomer of Transference a Selective Spell? SS has no effect on target spells. :smallconfused:

[Emperor Tippy]

How exactly does one make Dweomer of Transference a Selective Spell? SS has no effect on target spells. :smallconfused:

Occular Spell to turn it into a Ray and then a Lens of Ray Widening to turn it into a Cone.

Although technically you would just not get the DoT onto you in the first place that way.

To get the desired effect you use Metamagic Effect from an Incantatrix.

[Werephilosopher]

Although technically you would just not get the DoT onto you in the first place that way.

To get the desired effect you use Metamagic Effect from an Incantatrix.

I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying you get an Incantatrix to cast it on you because you can't hit yourself with a cone effect?

[Emperor Tippy]

I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying you get an Incantatrix to cast it on you because you can't hit yourself with a cone effect?

No, making the cone Selective (You) means that it would never hit you in the first place. Just like a Selective (You) fireball dropped at your feat does nothing to you.

An Incantatrix can apply metamagic to any persistent spell effect. So you drop the DoT cone at your feat and then apply Selective (You) to it after it is already up on you.

[Werephilosopher]

No, making the cone Selective (You) means that it would never hit you in the first place. Just like a Selective (You) fireball dropped at your feat does nothing to you.

An Incantatrix can apply metamagic to any persistent spell effect. So you drop the DoT cone at your feat and then apply Selective (You) to it after it is already up on you.

You continue to amaze, Tippy :smalleek:

[Aliek]

But if you can change faiths just for the sake of targeting, then surely your opponent can also change faiths just to get their abilities back.

How about mindraping yourself to justify your change of faith?

Would be pretty fun for an archivist to go around sapping all of the divines' ability to cast

[alanek2002]

And if I recall correctly, Divine casting is effectively a god granting you power, granting more as you live in their service. A different god shouldn't just say (to a high level caster) "Hey, have a ton of power at no real cost, kthxbye. "

Edit: Clerics, at least.

[Rubik]

And if I recall correctly, Divine casting is effectively a god granting you power, granting more as you live in their service. A different god shouldn't just say (to a high level caster) "Hey, have a ton of power at no real cost, kthxbye. "

Edit: Clerics, at least.Ironically, if the cleric becomes reasonably high level, he actually becomes more powerful than his god.

Such a situation would make anyone paying attention a bit...suspicious, I'd think.

[The Shadowmind]

What beats a spell that says you are now immune to all spells?

Would Spell Rebirth(Reverse) work? [Truenaming]

[Aquillion]

And if I recall correctly, Divine casting is effectively a god granting you power, granting more as you live in their service. A different god shouldn't just say (to a high level caster) "Hey, have a ton of power at no real cost, kthxbye. "

Edit: Clerics, at least.Maybe, but remember that the spell in question is explicitly balanced around the fact that the target, at least, can change faith to recover their casting ability -- it says so right in the spell.

I think divine casting is meant to be something that relies on some sort of supernatural understanding, much like wizard casting; a high-level priest has the knowledge of the divine is capable of wielding more powers than a low-level priest because he understands the divine better as a general concept, not just because of his relationship with his one deity.

[Vaz]

What beats a spell that says you are now immune to all spells?

Would Spell Rebirth(Reverse) work? [Truenaming]

Shapechange into a form with a Supernatural Ability. Like a Reserves of Strength Shapechange into a Great Wyrm Black Dragon (for Acid damage, or whatever type you are not protected against).

[Aquillion]

Shapechange into a form with a Supernatural Ability. Like a Reserves of Strength Shapechange into a Great Wyrm Black Dragon (for Acid damage, or whatever type you are not protected against).Or summoning / calling / binding, or terrain alteration (the traditional way to beat golems is to disintegrate the ground under them). In actual practice, buffing your allies is also an effective way to beat enemies who are personally immune to magic, and buffing yourself also works (which Shapechange is sort of the ultimate example of, although at lower levels Alter Self can also do it if you have access to the right forms.)

[Rubik]

And if I recall correctly, Divine casting is effectively a god granting you power, granting more as you live in their service. A different god shouldn't just say (to a high level caster) "Hey, have a ton of power at no real cost, kthxbye. "

Edit: Clerics, at least.It works well enough if your character worships a pantheon which is generally friendly amongst themselves, especially if they've come to an understanding.

"You work for the good of all; we understand if a situation calls for you to divide your attention amongst us, so long as you do not fail to honor even the least of us."