3.5+PF // please help

[arkangel111]

I am in a group and we are looking at playing a 3.5/PF mix. Basically our option of 3.5 or PF characters in a PF adventure.

the rules:

For PF anything from Paizo on the SRD is legal.
Skills for 3.5 characters will be retuned to PF skills.
IF we go with 3.5 then we use 3.5 feat progression for that character while others get PF feat progresssion.
3.5 sources (with approval of course) we can make an initial choice and then we get from that source plus core. ex. if i choose a warforged then I can use eberron campaign and core.
Shared XP. so everyone levels at the same time.
Not a lot of downtime so Item creation shouldn't be much available though i imagine we'd use PF item rules. (unconfirmed)
Spells from 3.5 spell compendium for 3.5 characters. though i would think we will use PF spells if they are available. (unconfirmed)
PF rules for the most part (Skills, CMB/CMD,etc...)

Here's my problem.

1. from experience PF characters are stronger than 3.5 counter parts
2. feat progression is amazing in PF.

I WANT to play a warforged warlock. but am afraid even fully optimized i would never compare to any PF character. I am thinking no dragon magazine and things like that so a lot of the cheese in the class will be gone. My party will consist of 4 other guys and only one of those even understands optimizing so i am not worried about being average just worried about not being the 5th wheel. I am guilty of being one of the more optimized players in the group if not the most optimized player.

Current players in party already

1. Ranger (archer) OR Fighter (spiked Chain) most likely
2. Bard
3. Spellcaster?! Not sure what though (other optimizer!)
4. undecided (currently a severely un-optimized monk in PF)
5. ME!

So basically I just want to know if I am shooting too low in power for my group since we are doing the hybrid type rules. Also if anyone knows a good resource for 3.5-PF skill conversions that would be nice.

Tips tricks and build ideas for the warlock would be appreciated though i already have a theme in mind and will choose abilities fitting for it over power abilities. also I have looked at the warlock handbooks so no need to point me there.

Ark

edited to clarify...

[Bigbeefie]

You wont find Warforged or warlock in PF.

Yes PF character are stronger because of the feat progressions and changes made to the classes. (OMG THE PALADIN SMITE)

you wouldn't be able to keep up with the PF groups power unless you cheese out your character somehow.


my current party ideas
1. Ranger (archer) OR Fighter (spiked Chain) most likely
2. Bard
3. Spellcaster?! Not sure what though (other optimizer!)
4. undecided (currently a severely un-optimized monk in PF)

So basically anything then? Archery got a huge buff in pathfinder...Deadly Aim...power attack for a bow comes to mind.

As far as the Campaign ask your DM what things will be in it...helpful hints...Like does he expect the group to play good aligned, does he plan there to be lots of demons, undead, dragons, and evil outsiders? If the answer is yes then role a paladin archetype divine hunter and go to town owning his campaign. If he is making it a heavy RP less combat then focus on a bard or a socialite that will shine in that campaign.

The thing I hate is when people dont tell what the campaign will entail.

[Bigbeefie]

Another problem you run into when you mix the games like this is not only power balance issues but

you get double the amount of rules and problems to occur. Pretty much pick one and stick to it....Pathfinder has a ton of stuff that you will not run out of ideas same as 3.5

when most people mix the 2 its just something simple like....I'm going to play a warforged....but everything else is Pathfinder....that is not hard to convert over. but just picking and choosing becomes extremely difficult and really not a wise idea.

Why not just ask...Hey can I be a Warforged Chain fighter that uses everything pathfinder but my race? DM can Nerf it or buff it if he sees fit...and Im sure he would probably say sure.

[arkangel111]

Edited original post...

Also Beefie, We are using PF rules pretty much everywhere. The party ideas was what the other guys were planning to play not myself

[Bigbeefie]

Edited original post...

Also Beefie, We are using PF rules pretty much everywhere. The party ideas was what the other guys were planning to play not myself

ahh well if it is what the other people are making then it looks like another Hammer DPS would do fine since the spell caster and the Bard can anvil/CC together to cover that role of combat. Still recommending the archer paladin if your fighting some real evil nastiness. Its a Combatant that still gets some good CHA role play experiences and will take some of those moments from the Bard making you seem less 5th wheels and more of a Ethics checker ass whooper. It will also bring more healing to your group.

I recommend just sticking with pathfinder material as it will make the stronger character and most everyone else is using that material as well.

[OldTrees1]

Pathfinder has fewer acceptable feats. They get more feats but they miss all the good feats 3.5 has printed for mundane/martial characters.

[Bigbeefie]

Pathfinder has fewer acceptable feats. They get more feats but they miss all the good feats 3.5 has printed for mundane/martial characters.
I call BS on that as I've plays both...the only feat I miss is Monkey grip other then that I can find a PF equivalent or find better....Even power attack in PF is better then 3.5

[Perseus]

I call BS on that as I've plays both...the only feat I miss is Monkey grip other then that I can find a PF equivalent or find better....Even power attack in PF is better then 3.5

Ok see ... When you say you miss monkey grip it makes me think that you haven't made a martial character in 3.5.

3.5 feats are stronger only because in PF you need two or three to equal one 3.5 feat. They broke up some feats that didn't need broken up. I only give a slight edge to 3.5, but that is because you can break the game easier with their feats than in PF (which is a good and bad thing, depending on play styles).

Counterpoint: Vital Strike are suuuch awesome feat though! Answer to that: No not unless you are a monster.

Also 3.5 has shock trooper + leap attack. While a barbarian can mimick this nasty combo at level 12 onwards (but not as well)... It comes online in 3.5 much sooner. Plus valarous weapons exist in 3.5, have they made them for pathfinder yet? (Last I played they didn't)

PF martial characters are in the same tier as their 3.5 counterparts. The classes have more stuff but that stuff doesn't make them stronger/more versatile than the originals.

Like I've always said. 3.5 martial classes are a bucket with holes in the sides (the game is the water going into the bucket). Pathfinder martial classes are buckets with holes in the sides with a smiley face drawn on the bucket. Pathfinder martials look better but they have the same problems and work the same (versus the game) as their 3.5 counterparts.

[Bigbeefie]

break the game easier

only if you try and if you try your not making it fun at the table for anyone else. Sure I can break games if I wanted to but I tend to not try and do that as it only makes the other players and DM angry.


3.5 feats are stronger only because in PF you need two or three to equal one 3.5 feat. They broke up some feats that didn't need broken up. I only give a slight edge to 3.5, but that is because you can break the game easier with their feats than in PF (which is a good and bad thing, depending on play styles).

It sounds like it needed a fix anyways and Pathfinder fixed them. As far as like bullrush they get +4 to the +2 from Pathfinder.....a fighter now gets weapon training (not in 3.5) that scales with level and adds bonuses to CMD ontop of To hit and damage. Yes 3.5 got more upfront with their feats...But Pathfinder does bring more in to equal out then surpass 3.5

Yes I need Bull rush and improved bull rush to get +4 but after my 2 feats I also provoke attacks of opportunity from my Party members for moving them with a bullrush. But with weapon training I get +5 or better to the defense from the push back.

You get 1 feat for a +4 that doesnt provoke. But you don't get to provoke AoO from your party members.

So the pathfinder equivalently to 3.5 is just take bull rush and get weapon training at level 5 and you already get a +3 just 1 point lower then the 3.5 counter part.

Up front you may gain more at level 1 with 3.5 material but after a while the Pathfinder will pull slightly ahead with weapon training.

So the 2 feats in 1 argument is not the same when they add more to the 2nd feat to make it surpass the original 3.5 material

[Perseus]

only if you try and if you try your not making it fun at the table for anyone else. Sure I can break games if I wanted to but I tend to not try and do that as it only makes the other players and DM angry.



It sounds like it needed a fix anyways and Pathfinder fixed them. As far as like bullrush they get +4 to the +2 from Pathfinder.....a fighter now gets weapon training (not in 3.5) that scales with level and adds bonuses to CMD ontop of To hit and damage. Yes 3.5 got more upfront with their feats...But Pathfinder does bring more in to equal out then surpass 3.5

Yes I need Bull rush and improved bull rush to get +4 but after my 2 feats I also provoke attacks of opportunity from my Party members for moving them with a bullrush. But with weapon training I get +5 or better to the defense from the push back.

You get 1 feat for a +4 that doesnt provoke. But you don't get to provoke AoO from your party members.

So the pathfinder equivalently to 3.5 is just take bull rush and get weapon training at level 5 and you already get a +3 just 1 point lower then the 3.5 counter part.

Up front you may gain more at level 1 with 3.5 material but after a while the Pathfinder will pull slightly ahead with weapon training.

So the 2 feats in 1 argument is not the same when they add more to the 2nd feat to make it surpass the original 3.5 material

Yes, 3.5 needed fixed. No argument there, but Pathfinder didn't fix anything.

The problem with martials is not bigger numbers. It is really easy to get bigger numbers. The problem is that feats arent versatile enough to keep martials up with the game.

And then in PF they break up feats, give you more feats, and put in a system where those feats are useless to martial characters.

The CMB/CMD math just doesn't work.... Well unless you are the monster. Sure that 3rd feat gave you a bit more than what the 1 feat gave you... But it doesn't help you bullrush because the system itself (math) says "no".

So you have a feat that somewhat works in a system versus 3 feats that dont work within their system (unless you are a eidolon or some other monster).

So 3.5 feats come out slightly ahead.

My comments on breaking a game are mostly for humor, the tier 1 classes get to do it (spank the game) but if you introduce powerful feats/feat combos (that only martials can take) then the sky is falling.

[Bigbeefie]

Yes, 3.5 needed fixed. No argument there, but Pathfinder didn't fix anything.

The CMB/CMD math just doesn't work.... Well unless you are the monster. Sure that 3rd feat gave you a bit more than what the 1 feat gave you... But it doesn't help you bullrush because the system itself (math) says "no".

So you have a feat that somewhat works in a system versus 3 feats that dont work within their system (unless you are a eidolon or some other monster).


I still don't see the 3 feats to your 1...I see 2 to 1 but never 3 to 1....there is no Greater then great Improved Bull rush....only Bull rush and Improved bull rush. Same with grapple, trip, re-position, dirty trick, disarm, sunder, ext ext.

So till you give me actual feat examples besides you saying 3 to 1 Then I will disagree with you based on 0 proof.

Also I've never had a problem with CMD/CMB. Yeah monsters with 6 legs get major bonuses to trip ect ect...but you should not be a 1 trick trip pony ever. Same goes with all Combat Maneuvers. Every Combat maneuver is suppose to be situation and used when the right circumstances show up, not every turn. Yes you can't "trip or grapple" a teleporter...unless your party helps you take away the teleporting ability....that is where team comp comes in to cover the weaknesses you gain over time or you can just straight forward kill them with damage and not worry about grappling them.

You should also be using expendables (potions) to cover areas like fly, AC being worthless later, and size. You can enlarge yourself to bull rush a Huge monster....Yeah you can't Bullrush that Colossal sized creature but that is to be expected since they weigh usually over 10 tons. Even in 3.5 you shouldn't be able to do that as you can not gain that much strength to move that kind of load in a medium sized creature.


The problem is that feats aren't versatile enough to keep martials up with the game. This I disagree with if your cleaver enough to MAKE something work with your party/items/or other resources. As a lot of higher level encounters may be spell casters but once you reach them it is pretty much over for them in a single round of attacks. Mages at higher levels don't typically have spell duels...its more along How to get fight on his face....Once accomplished the fight usually ends with blood on the fighters sword.

[Suddo]

Every Combat maneuver is suppose to be situation and used when the right circumstances show up, not every turn. Yes you can't "trip or grapple" a teleporter...unless your party helps you take away the teleporting ability....that is where team comp comes in to cover the weaknesses you gain over time or you can just straight forward kill them with damage and not worry about grappling them.

So where the wizard gets to learn their situation spells every level (or for a minimal cost in gold) you as the mundane have to spend multiple feats (if it is under Combat Expertise you also need 13 int and a dead feat).



You should also be using expendables (potions) to cover areas like fly, AC being worthless later, and size. You can enlarge yourself to bull rush a Huge monster....Yeah you can't Bullrush that Colossal sized creature but that is to be expected since they weigh usually over 10 tons. Even in 3.5 you shouldn't be able to do that as you can not gain that much strength to move that kind of load in a medium sized creature.

AC isn't worthless later especially as the fighter, it has some diminishing value but since you will often be taking full-attacks then you want to be able to not get hit by all of them (and also not get full power attacked). If you are spending money on Fly and other things then you aren't spending that money on other fun things like equipment (plus action economy). Even if you try to bullrush a monster bigger than you they get huge bonuses (often more than the simply feat gives you) and more strength than you (meaning higher CMD). Plus many things like elementals are straight immune to things like trips.