What is a incarnum Missing?

[SiuiS]

Specifically, what differentiates incarnum from regular casting, on a qualitative level (ie not just numbers)? Without chicanery, they are abstractedly similar; incarnun gives early, balanced, level appropriate (as far as that matters) flight, miss chance, damage reduction, armor/skill boosts, melee buffs, various protections, a minion, spell power enhancement... The only thing that sticks out is teleportation/planar travel, summoning/binding, and targeted debuffs.

I know there's a spot that casting covers in general that is so ubiquitous people sort of don't pay it any mind and that'd incarnum does even approach, but what exactly is it?

[danzibr]

Thinking of Person_Man's niche system, the first thing that comes to mind is their inability to fill the game-changing niche.

[SiuiS]

Fantastic! Thanks. I never would have found that.

I myself would put Game Changer and Summonsr as the two glaring weak points, but P_M ironically puts the incarnate at 2/3 throughout (with an errant 1 here and or there). That's... Actually that's phenomenally helpful, danzibr. I would give you an arbitrary token of esteem but I'm on a cellphone, so I don't have internets or cookies to spare.

[AmberVael]

One thing to consider is the massive difference between the number of prepared or known spells a spellcaster can have, and the number of melds a meldshaper can have. Having the ability to switch between a lot of things is great, but your average meldshaper can only do a handful of different things each day.

A spellcaster, meanwhile, has a much bigger variety available to them at all times. They can access numerous solutions and powers on the fly in a way that is simply impossible for a meldshaper.

[Waker]

AmberVael is quite correct. Incarnum doesn't tend to age too well, at higher levels the class abilities and soulmelds don't keep the pace with some of the other systems, especially magic in general. At the highest levels, an Incarnate can have a total of 12 melds over the course of a day (9 at a time 3 swapped), , whereas a spellcaster like a Wizard or Cleric can prepare and cast several dozen.
But then again nothing does well at higher levels except magic. At the low to mid levels, Incarnum does fine.
But since you ask specifically what Incarnum lacks, I would also add Healing to the list. While they have melds that can limit Ability Damage and increase the amount of HP recovered, the Incarnum users don't have any way for them to directly restore Ability Damage or HP, at least not without incurring damage themselves. (Lifebond Vestments). Resurrection is right out.
They also lack the means of any kind of BFC. Most of the soulmelds are focused inwards with a few providing extra attacks, but most of them are single targets.

[Cog]

There's another thing Incarnum is "missing" is highly situational effects: all those minor spells that Divine classes can prep on a whim and that Wizards can fill a spellbook with for a rainy day to bring out precisely when needed. Some of the bind effects cover this, but that ties up additional resources for incarnum users - it'd be like telling a Wizard "For every Knock you prepare, you must also prepare a Fireball and a Glitterdust".

[Person_Man]

Fantastic! Thanks. I never would have found that.

I myself would put Game Changer and Summonsr as the two glaring weak points, but P_M ironically puts the incarnate at 2/3 throughout (with an errant 1 here and or there). That's... Actually that's phenomenally helpful, danzibr. I would give you an arbitrary token of esteem but I'm on a cellphone, so I don't have internets or cookies to spare.

Incarate has pretty much every possible defense available, most of them starting at level 1: Spell Resistance, miss chance, bonus hit points, AC and Saving Throw boosts, damage reduction, energy resistance, Defect Arrows multiple times per round, uncanny dodge, evasion, infinite healing tricks, etc. These defenses are all continuous all day effects, and scale well. It also gets an infinitely replacable Necrocarum Zombie minion that you can use for a huge variety of tasks. It can boost almost any Skill by +6 to +20 (and a few Skills by +12 to +40). And gets late game access to the Gate spell, which allows it to act as a "Game Changer" occasionally.

Totemist is more of a focused, strait forward melee monster, though it also has some good options for ranged damage, mobility, debuffs, and certain Skills.

Soulborn is terrible. Use a homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441).


Things I feel that could be added to make it more "complete."

Simplicity: Each soulmeld can be bound to 1 and only 1 chakra slot. You can only bind 1 soulmeld to each slot with no exceptions, but binding a soulmeld does not prevent you from using a magic item in that slot. Each slot has a specific theme (offense, defense, detection, movement, etc) so that making your choice of which soulmeld to bind is more meaningful. Essentia capacity is equal to 1/2 your total hit dice (minimum 1).

Differentiation: The Soulborn and Incarnate share a lot of soulmelds, and the Totemist shares some as well. Each should have gotten it's own suite of soulmelds with very little overlap, so that each class could have been more unique. Also, each soulmeld and chakra bind provides a unique bonus or ability which is not duplicated by any other soulmeld or chakra bind - the current setup has lots of overlap, even within a class.

High level options: Totemist eventually gets the Swarm template (with Dragon Magazine material) and Incarnate eventually gets True Seeing and Gate. But there are lots of additional options that could have been added without "breaking" anything.

Healing: Could have easily gone to the Soulborn or the Incarnate or both. I think the writers resisted putting this in because of the "all day" nature of incarnum. They didn't want to provide easy access to infinite healing or status condition removal without the expenditure of daily resources.

Better Skill Lists: The Skill bonuses provided by Incarnum are great. But without a good Skill list, you're pretty much forced to multi-class if you want to get high Skill checks from many Skills. Give the Totemist stealth and nature stuff, the Soulborn party face and warrior stuff, and the Incarnate everything else, including all the obscure Knowledge, Decipher Script, etc.

[danzibr]

Fantastic! Thanks. I never would have found that.

I myself would put Game Changer and Summonsr as the two glaring weak points, but P_M ironically puts the incarnate at 2/3 throughout (with an errant 1 here and or there). That's... Actually that's phenomenally helpful, danzibr. I would give you an arbitrary token of esteem but I'm on a cellphone, so I don't have internets or cookies to spare.
Thanks! If I had the time to look at the niches I would've provided a better answer. Anyway, glad to be of service.

@PM: I like the 1/2 HD house rule.

[SiuiS]

AmberVael is quite correct. Incarnum doesn't tend to age too well, at higher levels the class abilities and soulmelds don't keep the pace with some of the other systems, especially magic in general. At the highest levels, an Incarnate can have a total of 12 melds over the course of a day (9 at a time 3 swapped), , whereas a spellcaster like a Wizard or Cleric can prepare and cast several dozen.

It is my experience that one of two things will happen, actually. Either the player never makes full use of their higher spells ("oh man, this fireball is much better than that fireball!") or they play such that only their best twelve spells really matter.


But since you ask specifically what Incarnum lacks, I would also add Healing to the list. While they have melds that can limit Ability Damage and increase the amount of HP recovered, the Incarnum users don't have any way for them to directly restore Ability Damage or HP, at least not without incurring damage themselves. (Lifebond Vestments). Resurrection is right out.
They also lack the means of any kind of BFC. Most of the soulmelds are focused inwards with a few providing extra attacks, but most of them are single targets.

Noted. They're well done on a combat scale but less worldshakin on a campaign scale, then.



Soulborn is terrible. Use a homebrew fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441).

What's a soul born? There are two classes in my book, here, and the usual, expected traces of burnt pages WotC put in every Magic of Incarnum book.



Healing: Could have easily gone to the Soulborn or the Incarnate or both. I think the writers resisted putting this in because of the "all day" nature of incarnum. They didn't want to provide easy access to infinite healing or status condition removal without the expenditure of daily resources.

Aye. But we've got so many free/cheap healing. Methods now it seems pointless to restrict it.

I'm noticing that the incarnate is functionally similar to a warlock. I wanted a look at what incarnum can and cannot do so I would know what would bear rewriting and what would require compete fabrication if I were to, say, replace sorcerer with warlock and wizard with incarnate (Socratic exercise: "just play cleric or Druid" is not an option).

[Fouredged Sword]

I would have liked to see healing done as well. Even if you turned it into a lay on hands style healing with a per day cap.

Touch of the healer.

The hands of a healer are an incarnate soul meld that allows the incarnate to heal the wounds of his allies. They double the healing gained through natural healing and treat injury checks when the incarnate ether healing or aiding other to treat injuries or provide longterm care. Each point of essence invested in this meld grants a +2 insight bonus to treat injury checks.

Binds -

Hands - The hand bind causes the healing energy to flow into the incarnates touch. The incarnate gains a lay on hands ability that heals all creatures. The total amount of healing an incarnate can do in a day is his meldshaper level X his Charisma modifier X 2. The maximum amount of healing he can do in a round is the essence invested in this meld X his charisma modifier.

- Then a high level bind that grants resurection as an hour long ability that takes EXP to use or locks down all an incarnates essence for days.

[Psyren]

Also, each soulmeld and chakra bind provides a unique bonus or ability which is not duplicated by any other soulmeld or chakra bind - the current setup has lots of overlap, even within a class.

I disagree with this bit - overlap/redundancy is important in any system, even imperfect overlap. For example, I consider it a good thing that Airstep Sandals/Manticore Belt/Pegasus Cloak/Incarnate Avatar can all grant flight from different slots - It means you're not locked into a single meld or chakra to get access to this vital ability. If anything I would want more overlap, not less - Another soulmeld besides Sphinx Claws that grants pounce for instance, or another that grants Insight to AC for non-good Incarnates.



Better Skill Lists: The Skill bonuses provided by Incarnum are great. But without a good Skill list, you're pretty much forced to multi-class if you want to get high Skill checks from many Skills. Give the Totemist stealth and nature stuff, the Soulborn party face and warrior stuff, and the Incarnate everything else, including all the obscure Knowledge, Decipher Script, etc.

Skill points too. Incarnates should be 6+Int, and Totemists/Soulborns 4+Int. (The only classes I would let be 2+Int are Wizards really, because they spend all their time studying their actual craft or something.)

[Chronos]

Another problem is the alignment dependence. Yes, there should be some, but it should be balanced, and it isn't. A lot of the really useful abilities are necrocarnum, which means evil-only, or neutral at the cost of a feat, and are completely unavailable to good. If you want a summon on an evil incarnate, necrocarnum zombies are great, but if you're good, the best you can do is the soulspark (which sucks).

[Psyren]

Another problem is the alignment dependence. Yes, there should be some, but it should be balanced, and it isn't. A lot of the really useful abilities are necrocarnum, which means evil-only, or neutral at the cost of a feat, and are completely unavailable to good. If you want a summon on an evil incarnate, necrocarnum zombies are great, but if you're good, the best you can do is the soulspark (which sucks).

Actually, the Necrocarnate adaptation (MoI 135, Vivicarnate) opens it up to good-aligned characters just fine.

[SiuiS]

Another problem is the alignment dependence. Yes, there should be some, but it should be balanced, and it isn't. A lot of the really useful abilities are necrocarnum, which means evil-only, or neutral at the cost of a feat, and are completely unavailable to good. If you want a summon on an evil incarnate, necrocarnum zombies are great, but if you're good, the best you can do is the soulspark (which sucks).

The second-party feat "perceived alignment", the standard D&D equivalent of Percieved Honor, actually let's you be Good while counting, for all purposes, as evil. If your reputation is as an evil bastard, you can keep up appearances (including free use of alignment restricted things) as long as no one sees you acting normal and breaks your cover.

Plus the fluff on Necrocarnate is it's evil because of the tortured souls, but it later says the tortured souls are jut something evil incarnated do for lulz, so it's a tautological argument and you could say that if you aren't torturing souls and just shaping powers, necrocarnate becomes much less wicked.

[Person_Man]

@PM: I like the 1/2 HD house rule.

Yeah, it honestly makes everything a lot easier to calculate and manage, and it makes everything scale much better at higher levels. It also makes the Incarnum Feats (which by RAW have a maximum essentia capacity of 4) useful, when they're currently mostly useless. And people forget that unless you're using the "Necrocarnate that pours hot water on a ant hill" exploit which no one allows in a real game, essentia is actually pretty hard to come by. So no one is going to have 10 essentia to invest in a soulmeld to "exploit" the easily scaled essentia capacity unless they significantly invest in an Incarnum class or Feats.



I'm noticing that the incarnate is functionally similar to a warlock. I wanted a look at what incarnum can and cannot do so I would know what would bear rewriting and what would require compete fabrication if I were to, say, replace sorcerer with warlock and wizard with incarnate (Socratic exercise: "just play cleric or Druid" is not an option)

I would disagree somewhat with the Incarnate/Warlock comparison. They do share the whole at-will magical effect and some cool Skill buff thing. But they differ in some very important ways.

Incarnates are primarily Meat Shields with an amazing Animate ability. Warlocks are primarily blaster/debuffers (Glaivelock, Clawlock, Baleful Utterance, Chilling Tentacles). Once a Warlock selects their Invocations, they're locked in forever, whereas an Incarnate can change soulmelds/chakra binds (and thus Niches) every day.

I would actively choose to play either class over a Druid or Cleric in any low-mid level "world's largest dungeon" type campaign where I knew daily resources would be stretched.

[SiuiS]

... I actually ended up using that trick in my last game with incarnum <_<

Along with perco even alignment. I was a tiefling incarnate of law who went into Necrocarnate and worked for dispater to create a united from of Law across an entropy-ridden multiverse.

[Perseus]

I started working on redoing the Totemist class recently and what I really saw lacking is organization.

Totemist could easily have their soulmelds organized better so that new and old player alike can easily go through their soulmelds (actually that whole chapter needs to be broken up into 3 different list...)

Anyways for the Totemist I have broken their soulmelds into three types. Each bound location gives you the same ability but restricts what magic items function. This gives the class some ability to use magic items.

Masks: Brow, Crown, and Throat chakra.
Pelts: Waist and Shoulder chakra
Limbs: Legs, Arms, and Hand chakra
Totem: Any

Like normal you have a shape, bind, and totem bind. There needs to be one more type of totemist bind but I'm not there yet.

Totem chakra will work as normal, you must select another chakra if you are binding to the totem chakra.

Another thing the totemist lacks is versatility to push "create your own monster class" to a higher level by allowing them to combine different soulmelds.

Starting at mid levels and going into late levels the totemist can mix two of each type of soulmeld to create their own mask/pelt/limbs.

So say at level 10 a totemist can take the shape ability of one mask + bound ability of another mask + one of the masks totem bind so that they may create a new mask.

Do this with pelts and limbs and you can have a walking mishmash beast of death.

[Psyren]

And people forget that unless you're using the "Necrocarnate that pours hot water on a ant hill" exploit which no one allows in a real game, essentia is actually pretty hard to come by.

It's a meaningful limitation certainly but I wouldn't call it hard. Most Necrocarnates will start with 7 essentia from class levels (Either Incarnate 5/Totemist 2, or Incarnate 7.) That's enough to keep their Circlet maxed out, granting them a meatshield (or two!) that can kill something else for them. You can also UMD a wand or staff of Soul Boon for a little extra, getting you up to 5 more, and can get more from feats or race as well.

Any essentia they siphon from corpses lasts a full 24 hours, i.e. even during sleep, so depending on when you kill/drain an enemy you can easily keep your essentia investment long enough to kill something else as well as keep you protected overnight. In addition, with the Psion's Eyes meld you can UPD a dorje of Quintessence, keeping several corpses handy for dry spells that you can drain on a moment's notice. By coating the bodies in quintessence you remove them from the timestream, preserving them at the moment of death and keeping them "ripe" for later harvest; this allows you to retain excess corpses during heavy combat periods for use during the sparser ones. This is certainly a much less cheesy tactic than boiling anthills and one that could feasibly see use at an actual table.

[Fouredged Sword]

That and you finally have a use for all those bags of funny animals you pick up using the SRD loot tables.

[Person_Man]

It's a meaningful limitation certainly but I wouldn't call it hard. Most Necrocarnates will start with 7 essentia from class levels (Either Incarnate 5/Totemist 2, or Incarnate 7.) That's enough to keep their Circlet maxed out, granting them a meatshield (or two!) that can kill something else for them. You can also UMD a wand or staff of Soul Boon for a little extra, getting you up to 5 more, and can get more from feats or race as well.

Any essentia they siphon from corpses lasts a full 24 hours, i.e. even during sleep, so depending on when you kill/drain an enemy you can easily keep your essentia investment long enough to kill something else as well as keep you protected overnight. In addition, with the Psion's Eyes meld you can UPD a dorje of Quintessence, keeping several corpses handy for dry spells that you can drain on a moment's notice. By coating the bodies in quintessence you remove them from the timestream, preserving them at the moment of death and keeping them "ripe" for later harvest; this allows you to retain excess corpses during heavy combat periods for use during the sparser ones. This is certainly a much less cheesy tactic than boiling anthills and one that could feasibly see use at an actual table.

Fair enough. Though I would argue that if a DM is allowing you an essentia capacity of 1/2 your total hit dice, a player would be wise to avoid using hostages that you kill when needed, spells, magic items, and psionic items to max out your essentia all of the time, unless you're playing in a high optimization game.

[Psyren]

Well again, you don't need to slit a hostage's throat or anything morally dubious like that :smalltongue: just preserve the corpses of monsters that the party is killing anyway. You can even go through a big RP show of committing them to the earth/interring them formally (complete with incense and oils) while you "redeem" (harvest) them, if you're a good-aligned Vivicarnate, and thanking them for the soul energy that you are borrowing for that day. (For the greater good, of course.)

Nor do you need to max out all your soulmelds, though you certainly can if you wish. 2-4 corpses are all you need to get on par with a straight Incarnate - any more than that are gravy.

[Big Fau]

Meldshapers in general have some difficulty with their damage outputs. Totemists can get respectable damage, but Incarnates are hard-pressed without extensive optimization.

And while the Necrocarnum Zombie is good, it isn't Good and therefore not always an option. Without that the Incarnate has to wait until he gets the Gate ability of the Planar Chasuble or put up with the (fairly mediocre) Soulspark Familiar. Since Incarnates lack the ability to utilize the Share Soulmeld feat on their own, they don't get a reliable minion if they can't use the Necrocarnum Circlet.

[Talionis]

As with many of the stand alone books, MoI lacks the additional material and feats that say for example the Bard gets from having so many different books that add a little here and a little there.

I would say a Feat to Improve Meldshaper level by +4 which is fairly common for other classes would be somewhat helpful.

I would calculate Meldshaper level much like Initiators calculate Initiator Level. Yes, initiator level is hard to grasp and easy to make mistakes on and possibly not 100% clear on how to calculate, but the idea that non-meldshaper levels add half to your meldshaper level is a special help and cleans up the conundrum of dipping for 2 Totemist and then later adding Necrocarnum Circlet and having it be a higher meldshaper level than your Totemist soulmelds. Meldshaping level doesn't matter much because of the limited material, but where it does I think that the initiator system is better.

More varied Prestige Classes: Speaking of Initiators, it would be nice to have a prestige class that advances Initiator Level and Meldshaping. Tome of Battle is a well liked book and it would mesh well with Meldshaping. But any number of other prestige classes would seem to be helpful for more varied play.

Better Tables: The book should've included lists that let you know what the soulbinds do when bound since that's 90% of their higher level functions. You need a way to quickly visually see them. The material is excellent, but the presentation was sorry. Its why so many people have a hard time with the books. I believe some of the handbooks created by people on these boards have excellent tables that do a much better job of summarizing the soulmelds ability when bound.

[danzibr]

I started working on redoing the Totemist class recently and what I really saw lacking is organization.

[...]
I'd like to see this.

[Person_Man]

Meldshapers in general have some difficulty with their damage outputs. Totemists can get respectable damage, but Incarnates are hard-pressed without extensive optimization.

And while the Necrocarnum Zombie is good, it isn't Good and therefore not always an option. Without that the Incarnate has to wait until he gets the Gate ability of the Planar Chasuble or put up with the (fairly mediocre) Soulspark Familiar. Since Incarnates lack the ability to utilize the Share Soulmeld feat on their own, they don't get a reliable minion if they can't use the Necrocarnum Circlet.

Necrocarnum Acolyte Feat allows you to use Necrocarnum soulmelds with a non-Evil alignment. And there's a "Vivicarnum" adaptation buried in the book after the Necrocarnate PrC, which suggest a way for Good variant for Necrocarnum. So every Incarnate can and should use the Necrocarnum Circlet, and it is potentially a huge source of damage output for the Incarnate. The most powerful enemy you've defeated (with hit dice limited by your meldshaper level) essentially becomes your minion.

But for the sake of argument, lets rule out the usual Incarnate optimization tricks: No Necrocarnum Circlet, no Share Soulmelds Feat, no Necrocarnate, no magic items, no spells from UMD.

Here's ways you can boost to-hit and damage with soulmelds, taken from the "Incarnate by the Numbers (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916)" thread:

Increasing to-hit:

Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
Incarnate Avatar (Chaos) – Insight bonus (ranged only)
Incarnate Avatar (Law) – Insight bonus (melee only)
Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil) – Profane
Incarnum Radiance (Law) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)

Increasing damage:

Apparition Ribbon (all) – Insight bonus (vs. Incorporeal only)
Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
Bluesteel Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus
Incarnate Avatar (Evil) – Insight bonus (melee only)
Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
Necrocarnum Shroud - Profane
Necrocarnum Weapon (Evil) – Profane
Riding Bracers (all) – Insight bonus (when mounted only)
Sighting Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus (ranged weapons only)
Incarnum Radiance (Evil) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)


Obviously you can't use all of these at once, and/or not all of them always apply for various reasons. But a 20th level Evil Incarnate is looking at +43 to damage, an 20th level Lawful Incarnate is looking at +17 to hit. (And you can share much of that bonus with allies). That's on top of normal bonuses from Str or BAB.

Plus:

Mantle of Flame deals 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) retributive fire damage to any enemy who hits you in melee. No action required.

Flame Cincture bound to Waist: Grants fairly high Fire Resistance. Whenever prevent Fire damage, you can shoot it off as a Swift Action ranged touch attack the next turn.

Dissolving Spittle can deal up to 9d6*2 Acid damage as ranged touch attack.


So while the Incarnate is not a strong damage dealer, and they should have gotten full BAB or more "blasty" options, they certainly have decent options available.

[Seerow]

(And you can share much of that bonus with allies)

How are you sharing the bonuses with allies? I was under the impression most soulmelds are personal, and the Share Soulmeld feat will let you share with a familiar or animal companion (which makes blowing 3 feats on Wild Cohort, Summon Familiar, and Improved Familiar very worthwhile), but is there actually some way you can share your bonuses with other allies?

[Perseus]

How are you sharing the bonuses with allies? I was under the impression most soulmelds are personal, and the Share Soulmeld feat will let you share with a familiar or animal companion (which makes blowing 3 feats on Wild Cohort, Summon Familiar, and Improved Familiar very worthwhile), but is there actually some way you can share your bonuses with other allies?

For my Pegasus totem bind I was going to allow the totemist to share the flying ability with a number of creatures present when he bound the totem. Basically their energies are connected but the have to stay within a mile of each other like wizards and their familiars.

If the totemist unbinds or changes the number of essentia in the meld then the same thing happens to the other creatures meld. (Still working on it)

[Psyren]

How are you sharing the bonuses with allies? I was under the impression most soulmelds are personal, and the Share Soulmeld feat will let you share with a familiar or animal companion (which makes blowing 3 feats on Wild Cohort, Summon Familiar, and Improved Familiar very worthwhile), but is there actually some way you can share your bonuses with other allies?

I think he means Incarnum Radiance (Law).

[Big Fau]

Necrocarnum Acolyte Feat allows you to use Necrocarnum soulmelds with a non-Evil alignment. And there's a "Vivicarnum" adaptation buried in the book after the Necrocarnate PrC, which suggest a way for Good variant for Necrocarnum. So every Incarnate can and should use the Necrocarnum Circlet, and it is potentially a huge source of damage output for the Incarnate. The most powerful enemy you've defeated (with hit dice limited by your meldshaper level) essentially becomes your minion.

The Necrocarnum Acolyte feat is only open to non-Good, not non-Evil. While this gives the option to CN/LN Incarnates, it leaves NG ones out in the cold. As Seerow pointed out, the number of soulmelds that have party-wide effects are very limited and it's mostly just the Incarnum Radiance ability that lets them buff others. Also, 4 of the damage-boosts you posted are Evil-only. Other Incarnates have to use Power Attack or another option (LN Incarnates can make good use of PA, but with only 2 built-in iteratives and very limited access to pounce it wouldn't be as good as an ordinary Charger build).

They do have a way to pump damage, but it isn't that good at the high-levels. 18d6 Acid damage over the course of 2 rounds is pitiful at 15th and above.

A final note on the Necrocarnum Circlet: It's animation target is limited to your Meldshaper Level, something that is nearly impossible to boost. At 20th level you are facing very few enemies with 20HD or less. A Balor is completely impossible to reanimate, and a similar problem exists with the Pit Fiend (if my memory of FC2 is correct). The Solar is completely out of range, and forget about any Dragon of Mature Adult or older (or Adult, for a few of them). Even the vaunted 12-headed Hydra stopped being a threat at the high levels, simply due to it's lack of a Fly speed.

Even if you can hit the Pit Fiend with the reanimation effect, you get none of the special abilities that make them dangerous (the SLAs are vital to making a Pit Fiend a threat, as their melee damage is pathetic). Anything with DR/ Something other than Magic or B/P/S can quite happily let a Necrocarnum'ed Pit Fiend whale on it while it takes out the rest of the party.

[Psyren]

Fau, he covered the NG Incarnate via the Vivicarnate adaptation.

Also, it's not 18d6/2 rounds, it's 36d6/2 rounds - this is why we do whatever it takes to get the familiar.

[Big Fau]

Fau, he covered the NG Incarnate via the Vivicarnate adaptation.

Also, it's not 18d6/2 rounds, it's 36d6/2 rounds - this is why we do whatever it takes to get the familiar.

The Vivicarnate is not always an option, even if it is an officially suggested adaptation. And getting the familiar cripples the Circlet, shutting down the Necrocarnum Zombie idea entirely.

[SiuiS]

The Vivicarnate is not always an option, even if it is an officially suggested adaptation. And getting the familiar cripples the Circlet, shutting down the Necrocarnum Zombie idea entirely.

Isn't there a feat which makes it not a crippling choice?

[Big Fau]

Isn't there a feat which makes it not a crippling choice?

Nope. We never got a Practiced Meldshaper feat, and the number of ways to qualify for Share Soulmeld without multiclassing are limited in the extreme. Wild Cohort's animal companion never gets Share Spells, and unless you are seriously into cheese it's impossible to get an arcane caster level while being a single-classed Incarnate.

[Psyren]

The Vivicarnate is not always an option, even if it is an officially suggested adaptation. And getting the familiar cripples the Circlet, shutting down the Necrocarnum Zombie idea entirely.

A 1-level dip (at most!) is crippling? Really? :smallconfused:

Also, why are you assuming they have to be zombifying Balors and Solars? The fact that you're level 20 just means you can more easily go out and get something easier to deal with, like a Cloud Giant.

[Komatik]

The ability to turn the Christmas Tree's lights off. I mean, imagine walking into town wearing a basilisk mask and a cloak with a couple live toothy tentacles on it? Uh, oh. So, ability to dissolve shaped melds into incarnum mist or something of the sort. There can be some indication that magic is present, but it needs an off button.

The whole christmas tree effect, esp. with Incarnates/Soulborn is just ridiculous overall.

Then again, D&D...

[SiuiS]

Ah, well, that's sort of flavor text isn't it? Mechanically, what happens is you get a slot filled, it gives you a power, and people are aware that you have a slot filled.

You could change incarnum to a bunch of wizards who inscribe semipermanent tune circles into their aura and carry around a maze of sigils under mage sight and as long as you told people they were aware of the effects, you'd be fine.

[Big Fau]

A 1-level dip (at most!) is crippling? Really? :smallconfused:

Also, why are you assuming they have to be zombifying Balors and Solars? The fact that you're level 20 just means you can more easily go out and get something easier to deal with, like a Cloud Giant.

I seem to have mixed up the levels when Share Spells becomes available. My bad.

Cloud Giants can't fly, and don't have a ranged combat option unless you feel like giving them a bow (they have mediocre Dex, no feats for ranged combat, and you'd have to spend quite a bit of cash on that weapon). A Cloud Giant Necrocarnum Zombie isn't going to be doing much against flying opponents, which are plentiful, and the best flying options tend to be low-CR beaters.

A bag of HD with no special abilities worth remembering isn't much of a minion at level 15+. Most sentient enemies at those levels have ranks in Spellcraft, and can easily identify the Necrocarnum Circlet and the fact that you're commanding the zombie. One of the things that makes Necromancy so powerful at the high levels is the ability to craft/command undead with special abilities. Basic skeletons and zombies aren't much of a threat past 12th level, when almost everything that didn't have SLAs before now has them.

Creating a minion that's little more than a level X NPC Warrior with a preset list of feats from the MM entry isn't a very good ability past a certain point. Necrocarnum has a huge disadvantage compared to the standard Animate Dead spell too: It's effect is set to your ML, whereas AD is set to 2*CL (or 4*CL, if you have access to Desecrate).

It's literally 1/2 – 1/4 as good as being a Dread Necromancer or Cleric once they get Animate Dead.

[Psyren]

Presumably if you wanted to be a Cleric or Dread Necro, you'd just go play one instead of trying to cram the Incarnate into that mold. So I don't consider that to be any sort of drawback.

Yeah, zombies suck at ranged. That's not the point of a zombie, or indeed any big dumb meatshield. If flying is a problem, go animate something that flies, like a nice gargantuan Roc or something. Or you can simply make the flying enemy come to you; there's no law that says you have to derp around out in the open while they flick fiendish rubber bands at your head or whatever. Terrain is a thing you can and should use to your advantage at any level.

A bag of HD is indeed useful, even if he is dumb as a sack of rocks. For starters there's the undead type and all the great immunities it brings; Add to that a decent AC (easily +11 or more over the base creature even before any items/buffs you hand it) the ability to take cover behind it or use it to mess up enemy spellcaster targeting etc. and you can get quite a bit of use out of it. And best of all, it's totally disposable.

As an added bonus, Vivicarnum is one of the only ways in 3.5 to make a good-aligned necromancer archetype. They're not the best at it, but they won't get chased out of town by an angry mob or get glares from the Paladin either.

[Big Fau]

As an added bonus, Vivicarnum is one of the only ways in 3.5 to make a good-aligned necromancer archetype. They're not the best at it, but they won't get chased out of town by an angry mob or get glares from the Paladin either.

They might actually:


a pure and holy version of necrocarnum channeled from the purest of unborn souls.

It doesn't change the fluff very much, so using Necrocarnum (or Vivicarnum, since it is the adaptation) can potentially mean you're torturing raw soulstuff.

[SiuiS]

Presumably if you wanted to be a Cleric or Dread Necro, you'd just go play one instead of trying to cram the Incarnate into that mold. So I don't consider that to be any sort of drawback.

Yeah, zombies suck at ranged. That's not the point of a zombie, or indeed any big dumb meatshield. If flying is a problem, go animate something that flies, like a nice gargantuan Roc or something. Or you can simply make the flying enemy come to you; there's no law that says you have to derp around out in the open while they flick fiendish rubber bands at your head or whatever. Terrain is a thing you can and should use to your advantage at any level.

Thank you


A bag of HD is indeed useful, even if he is dumb as a sack of rocks. For starters there's the undead type and all the great immunities it brings; Add to that a decent AC (easily +11 or more over the base creature even before any items/buffs you hand it) the ability to take cover behind it or use it to mess up enemy spellcaster targeting etc. and you can get quite a bit of use out of it. And best of all, it's totally disposable.


You're missing the best part. A necrocarnum zombie retains it's intelligence score and doesn't become mindless.

The necrocarnum circlet is the world's best speak with dead; you kill someone, being them back, and they retain their knowledge base. Want to know stuff about a Prince? Kill his loyal mistress, animate him, and demand the knowledge. Hell, you could even order him back into bed with the Prince after depending on go the DM rules zombies and rot.



It doesn't change the fluff very much, so using Necrocarnum (or Vivicarnum, since it is the adaptation) can potentially mean you're torturing raw soulstuff.

Not so. The Necrocarnate and necro army's users usually mould their soulmelds as tortuous things, but it's not actually mandatory. If you go through the whole book with a fine tooth comb you'll find;
Necrocarnum is evil because necrocarnates torture souls.
Necrocarnates are evil because they use necrocarnum to torture souls.
Some evil incarnates and necrocarnates torture souls, rendering necrocarnum evil.

It really looks like a tautological argument that baby kickers are evil because they kick babies which is an evil act because evil baby kickers do it.

[Psyren]

They might actually:



It doesn't change the fluff very much, so using Necrocarnum (or Vivicarnum, since it is the adaptation) can potentially mean you're torturing raw soulstuff.

Try quoting the whole thing:


By stripping away the visual effects from necrocarnum soulmelds and renaming a few key abilities, however, you could create a parallel prestige class dedicated to the preservation and protection of pure souls.

Sounds plenty Good to me.

Also this:


Even necrocarnum zombies could still be used. Simply rename them (call them "Reborn", for example) and recast them as holy vessels given a second brief chance at life by the miracle of vivicarnum.

[SiuiS]

Directional shift:

The two things missing seem to be changing the nature of the game, and strong summons/minions.

Game changing because the one clear instance, gate, doesn't show up until late game when it's available earlier for straight casters (meaning we probably need a lesser version), and summoning because there is one good minion option that's only available to non-good by default and becomes inefficient at 80% capacity. I suspect fixing the former will help with the latter, so;


What effects constitute "Game Changing"? Assuming tier 3 is the games desired fulcrum, and that emergent properties of near-abuse aren't intentional uses of caster abilities.

[Person_Man]

What effects constitute "Game Changing"? Assuming tier 3 is the games desired fulcrum, and that emergent properties of near-abuse aren't intentional uses of caster abilities.

I personally define it as the ability to proactively reshape the game (or realty) to suit your goals. If the player wins Initiative, they can basically win any type of encounter (barring DM fiat). If given enough time to prepare, they can basically reshape the very nature of the game world and become a god-like being. Examples: Wish, Miracle, Gate, Psychic Reformation, anything that completely breaks the action economy, etc. When people talk about the Tippyverse or complain about something that's broken, this niche is what they're talking about.

If Tier 3 is your desired balance point, then you can safely leave Game Changing abilities out of your character.

[Chronos]

Quoth SiuiS:

Want to know stuff about a Prince? Kill his loyal mistress, animate him, and demand the knowledge. Hell, you could even order him back into bed with the Prince after depending on go the DM rules zombies and rot.
(emphasis mine)
I'm sensing some confusion, here...

[SiuiS]

(emphasis mine)
I'm sensing some confusion, here...

Mistress is as much conceptual as gendered. If I had used a different word such as mister or master, would you have gotten the meaning?

*

I think it's possible to give a class game changing abilities on the campaign scale without necessarily ramping it up to rocket tag on the combat scale, but I haven't done it myself yet. So I guess that's going to be theoretical for now...

[Psyren]

Mistress is as much conceptual as gendered. If I had used a different word such as mister or master, would you have gotten the meaning?

Consort? Courtesan?

[SiuiS]

Concubines might have worked, but then people would still go ":smallconfused:" at the implied homosexuality. Or, explicit? Implied is for implicit, right?

[Psyren]

Concubines might have worked, but then people would still go ":smallconfused:" at the implied homosexuality. Or, explicit? Implied is for implicit, right?

Moar like homolarity, amirite?

*cough*

(Implicit was correct in this context.)

[Chronos]

Oh, no reason a prince couldn't have a male consort/lover/whatever. It'd be unusual in a fantasy context, but hey, we're telling the stories here, the prince can be whatever sexuality we want. Said male consort/lover/whatever wouldn't be a mistress, though, whatever he is.

[SiuiS]

Oh, no reason a prince couldn't have a male consort/lover/whatever. It'd be unusual in a fantasy context, but hey, we're telling the stories here, the prince can be whatever sexuality we want. Said male consort/lover/whatever wouldn't be a mistress, though, whatever he is.

Consider it a trope name, in the same way that an antihero or outright villain can sill be a Big Damn Hero.

This has got to be one of the more interesting derails in the last week for me.

[Talionis]

Necrocarnum Acolyte Feat allows you to use Necrocarnum soulmelds with a non-Evil alignment. And there's a "Vivicarnum" adaptation buried in the book after the Necrocarnate PrC, which suggest a way for Good variant for Necrocarnum. So every Incarnate can and should use the Necrocarnum Circlet, and it is potentially a huge source of damage output for the Incarnate. The most powerful enemy you've defeated (with hit dice limited by your meldshaper level) essentially becomes your minion.

But for the sake of argument, lets rule out the usual Incarnate optimization tricks: No Necrocarnum Circlet, no Share Soulmelds Feat, no Necrocarnate, no magic items, no spells from UMD.

Here's ways you can boost to-hit and damage with soulmelds, taken from the "Incarnate by the Numbers (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916)" thread:

Increasing to-hit:

Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
Incarnate Avatar (Chaos) – Insight bonus (ranged only)
Incarnate Avatar (Law) – Insight bonus (melee only)
Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
Necrocarnum Shroud (Evil) – Profane
Incarnum Radiance (Law) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)

Increasing damage:

Apparition Ribbon (all) – Insight bonus (vs. Incorporeal only)
Bloodwar Gauntlets (Evil) – Moral bonus (melee only)
Bluesteel Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus
Incarnate Avatar (Evil) – Insight bonus (melee only)
Incarnate Weapon (all) – Enhancement bonus (melee only)
Necrocarnum Shroud - Profane
Necrocarnum Weapon (Evil) – Profane
Riding Bracers (all) – Insight bonus (when mounted only)
Sighting Gauntlets (all) – Insight bonus (ranged weapons only)
Incarnum Radiance (Evil) – Unnamed bonus (melee only)


Obviously you can't use all of these at once, and/or not all of them always apply for various reasons. But a 20th level Evil Incarnate is looking at +43 to damage, an 20th level Lawful Incarnate is looking at +17 to hit. (And you can share much of that bonus with allies). That's on top of normal bonuses from Str or BAB.

Plus:

Mantle of Flame deals 1d6 + (1d6 * essentia invested) retributive fire damage to any enemy who hits you in melee. No action required.

Flame Cincture bound to Waist: Grants fairly high Fire Resistance. Whenever prevent Fire damage, you can shoot it off as a Swift Action ranged touch attack the next turn.

Dissolving Spittle can deal up to 9d6*2 Acid damage as ranged touch attack.


So while the Incarnate is not a strong damage dealer, and they should have gotten full BAB or more "blasty" options, they certainly have decent options available.

I don't disagree with any of this, but it still is hard to say what Incarnates are "supposed to do in a fight".

If optimized Dissolving Spittle can be on par with a Warlocks blast, but that's not too exciting.

Having the absolute worst BAB is a huge problem. They can make up the lack of "to hit" pretty well, but they can't make up the number of attacks and iteratives. The fluff makes it look like you are this powerful warrior, but in practice its really hard to do. Damage is mostly left to Evil Incarnates, which can frustrate alignment restrictions on parties and the intent of players trying to make viable characters of different alignments.

Most of the time they have a zombie. Its not nothing, but it has its limitations.

You can be a UMD monster, but that can feel expensive when you are paying for all the scrolls, wands, etc.

I've had several conversations with many optimizers and this always is a problem.

[Psyren]

I agree, Incarnate on its own always feels a little watered-down to me. It is however one of the best multiclass options in the game and that's how I always end up using it.

[SiuiS]

I agree, Incarnate on its own always feels a little watered-down to me. It is however one of the best multiclass options in the game and that's how I always end up using it.

Incarnum is perfectly balanced for approaching the game. The problem is how easily everything else gets broken out of rail. Kinda sucks that this fantastic and well balanced magic system came out after all the core stuff.

[Perseus]

Incarnum is perfectly balanced for approaching the game. The problem is how easily everything else gets broken out of rail. Kinda sucks that this fantastic and well balanced magic system came out after all the core stuff.

I would love to see a MoI + ToB classes put into one core rule book. Fix up the classes/rules/fluff/skills a bit... You could sell that like hotcakes.

Of course the minsters would all need updated...

If that was made into a core rule book (PHB 3.75) I would buy it. I would still play 2e, 4e, and Next though :D.

[Person_Man]

I don't disagree with any of this, but it still is hard to say what Incarnates are "supposed to do in a fight".

We've already collectively covered your Necrocarnum Zombie (no small thing), Gate, Dissolving Spittle, Flame Cincture, Mantle of Flame, and UMD options. I also showed how melee or ranged attacks could be viable (though by no means optimal) with the right combination of buffs, depending on your alignment. That by itself is already more then most Tier 4-5 characters get, though they usually have the benefit of 3/4 or full BAB in place of the soulmeld buffs.

Here's some additional stuff an Incarnate can do in combat:

Arcane Focus or Psychic Focus adds to the DC of spells/powers, and can add a Save or Daze effect to any spell/power that deals damage. Noteworthy in that there are various ways to get Swift or triggered action spells/powers. For example, a spell-storing weapon.
Silvertongue Mask bound to Throat gives you at-will Suggestion.
Necrocarnum Shroud bound to Waist gives you a decent Fear aura. When bound to your Soul, it gives you a level-drain attack.
Incarnate Weapon bound to Arms chakra lets you charge your (Move Action) Weapon with a Save or Stun effect. Not amazing, but it means your first melee attack each combat has a decent debuff attached to it.
Soulspark Familiar, while weak, is another blob that can deal some damage or take other actions (Aid Another) and absorb hits on your turn.
Therapeutic Mantle and/or Lifebond Vestments give you some wonky but not that difficult to optimize healing options.
You can Mindlink and get a variety of at-will detection abilities (True Seeing, Read Thoughts, Detect Undead, See Invisibility), which can help make you an excellent leader/coordinator.
Apparition Ribon bound to Throat gives you the Incorporeal subtype for meldshaper rounds per day. (And Crystal Helm can give all of your attacks the Force descriptor). Thus you can move through walls, which gives you some interesting tactical options.
If you multi-class, there are various tricks you can pull off in combat with your heavily buffed Skills. For example, free action Sleight of Hand checks.


Now you rarely see these options used or talked about, because most of them require having a decent Wisdom score for the Save DC. (Which introduces MAD or requires you spend a Feat on Zen Archery or Intuitive Attack). But they're there. Yes, I think the Incarnate (and Totemist) could use a fixed essentia capacity so that everything scales better and more high level options. But it's not like you're completely lacking options. They're just not as sexy as Shatter or Black Tentacles or as versatile as a Tier 1-2 caster.

[AmberVael]

You know, while this isn't necessarily a balance issue, Incarnum really misses out on active effects, or at least interesting ones. The vast majority of soulmelds and binds don't give you anything significant to do on your turn, but instead just grant passive bonuses. I do like essentia management, but it still isn't quite enough on its own.

I really feel Incarnum could benefit from more active methods to shape and affect the battlefield or world in general.

[Perseus]

You know, while this isn't necessarily a balance issue, Incarnum really misses out on active effects, or at least interesting ones. The vast majority of soulmelds and binds don't give you anything significant to do on your turn, but instead just grant passive bonuses. I do like essentia management, but it still isn't quite enough on its own.

I really feel Incarnum could benefit from more active methods to shape and affect the battlefield or world in general.

MOAR gaze, breath, poison, and roar attacks! >:D

[SiuiS]

You know, while this isn't necessarily a balance issue, Incarnum really misses out on active effects, or at least interesting ones. The vast majority of soulmelds and binds don't give you anything significant to do on your turn, but instead just grant passive bonuses. I do like essentia management, but it still isn't quite enough on its own.

I really feel Incarnum could benefit from more active methods to shape and affect the battlefield or world in general.

Like walls of fire? Fields of razor ice? Tangles of vines? Slow-globs and areas of null-damage?

[Seerow]

Incarnum is perfectly balanced for approaching the game. The problem is how easily everything else gets broken out of rail. Kinda sucks that this fantastic and well balanced magic system came out after all the core stuff.

It may be balanced, but seriously if Incarnum had been core D&D would have flopped harder than anything you've seen.

The biggest issue with Incarnum is that it's damn confusing. Every soulmeld has three completely separate deals (Shaping, Investing, and Binding). So you have 3 different resources you're playing with, the Meldshapes (daily) the Binding (daily) and the Investing (changable on the fly, unless you're using Incarnum feats or spells in which case it is also daily because **** you). Then on top of that the Chakra binds have separate chakras which unlock at different levels and don't actually seem to have any sort of consistent power level increase as you go up (there's some really bad high level chakra binds, and some really awesome low level ones). And of course the cherry on top is the book itself does a horrible job explaining all of this, making it nearly impossible for a casual reader to pick up the book and understand what it's about.

Something similar to Incarnum could be successful. But in the context of Incarnum as is, it's balanced but would never be succesful on a large scale in the same way the core of 3.5 was. There's a reason that Incarnum (and to a lesser degree the other late 3.5 subsystems like Binding, Shadowmagic) remains a relatively small niche in the D&D community at large, only really gaining traction on forums with a heavy bent towards mechanics.

For Incarnum to work as a core system, it really would need to be stripped down, a lot. Most likely completely scrapping Chakra binds, and possibly even the shaping bonuses, making the big feature unlocking things through investing Essentia.

(Personally I've been working on a system that combines aspects of Essentia and Vestiges, and using that to take the place of the magic item system and act as the main subsystem divine characters and warlocks interact with)

[AmberVael]

Like walls of fire? Fields of razor ice? Tangles of vines? Slow-globs and areas of null-damage?

Well sure, but I just mean active effects in general. Stuff that isn't "I get +5 to X" or "Resistance to Y."

Person Man made a decent list of different kind of things you can do with Incarnum, but if you spend a little time looking at it and how much you can get from it, I think you'll see where I'm coming from.

For one, almost all those effects are binds. The lowest bind I see on that list comes online at level 9, while most of the rest are at level 14. And you can only get five binds per day. Five non-standard options really isn't all that much. Yeah, you can swap between them each day, but that's pretty slow. Throw in the fact that many of them are mutually exclusive, that you probably will want some passive effects, and that you probably aren't level 20 and you have even less.

Compare this to something like Tome of Battle. From the ground up maneuvers abilities are designed to be used in a more active manner, even the ones that don't really change what you're doing all that much. You have to choose when to expend and use your maneuvers, and many of them do add unique effects. It makes for a much more active, dynamic and less samey approach to things.

Incarnum doesn't have that, and doesn't emphasize that. And I think that's kind of a mistake, because it makes the system a lot harder to get into and enjoy.

[SiuiS]

And of course the cherry on top is the book itself does a horrible job explaining all of this, making it nearly impossible for a casual reader to pick up the book and understand what it's about.

This is the real issue. The system isn't all that confusing it's just given in a rather poor fashion. But you've got a point.



As for active effects, aye. That's an interesting one.

[Psyren]

So you have 3 different resources you're playing with, the Meldshapes (daily) the Binding (daily) and the Investing (changable on the fly, unless you're using Incarnum feats or spells in which case it is also daily because **** you).

This made me chuckle :smallbiggrin:

My DM lets feat investments be changeable on the fly like items, racials and melds are (though incarnum feats that grant a finite resource, like Azure Talent, only grant the benefit once/day.) Spells are still daily, set during preparation/readying, but that's okay because once you cast the spell in question you get the essentia back to invest into something else.

[Talionis]

Here's some additional stuff an Incarnate can do in combat:

Arcane Focus or Psychic Focus adds to the DC of spells/powers, and can add a Save or Daze effect to any spell/power that deals damage. Noteworthy in that there are various ways to get Swift or triggered action spells/powers. For example, a spell-storing weapon.
Silvertongue Mask bound to Throat gives you at-will Suggestion.
Necrocarnum Shroud bound to Waist gives you a decent Fear aura. When bound to your Soul, it gives you a level-drain attack.
Incarnate Weapon bound to Arms chakra lets you charge your (Move Action) Weapon with a Save or Stun effect. Not amazing, but it means your first melee attack each combat has a decent debuff attached to it.
Soulspark Familiar, while weak, is another blob that can deal some damage or take other actions (Aid Another) and absorb hits on your turn.
Therapeutic Mantle and/or Lifebond Vestments give you some wonky but not that difficult to optimize healing options.
You can Mindlink and get a variety of at-will detection abilities (True Seeing, Read Thoughts, Detect Undead, See Invisibility), which can help make you an excellent leader/coordinator.
Apparition Ribon bound to Throat gives you the Incorporeal subtype for meldshaper rounds per day. (And Crystal Helm can give all of your attacks the Force descriptor). Thus you can move through walls, which gives you some interesting tactical options.
If you multi-class, there are various tricks you can pull off in combat with your heavily buffed Skills. For example, free action Sleight of Hand checks.


Person Man, I'm not trying to disagree. They have things they can do. They just don't seem too sexy and they don't really add up to what you think they would add up. Nor do they match the fluff. Look at the guy in armor who is the poster child for Incarnates, he is carrying the over-sized sword.

People play Incarnates and they think they are doing something wrong on offense. They are doing what they are designed to do, and it just doesn't seem like much.

Also agree that much of what Incarnates do is Passive. It lasts all day and some of those bonuses can really add, but because they don't necessarily give you things to do: it can seem like they aren't doing much.

When compared to Tier 3's I would say Incarnates really do hold their own. Much of what they do well is skill monkey and defensive.

I also would say, Incarnate is exceptionally dippable and everyone on these boards pretty much appreciates the vast power level of a dip into Incarnate or Totemist, but they don't scale well or seem to keep up in power level as you take more levels of at least Incarnate.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, does the lack of decently scaling blasting count as a qualitative issue or is that still just numbers? :smallconfused:

[SiuiS]

Person Man, I'm not trying to disagree. They have things they can do. They just don't seem too sexy and they don't really add up to what you think they would add up. Nor do they match the fluff. Look at the guy in armor who is the poster child for Incarnates, he is carrying the over-sized sword.

That sword is the Incarnate Weapon meld. That guy might also be a [redacted] and not an incarnate.

But aye.


Hmm, does the lack of decently scaling blasting count as a qualitative issue or is that still just numbers? :smallconfused:

They blast about as well as a warlock. That seems sufficient.

That they can barely hit an area is qualitative though. The quality of output is insufficient, rather than just the numerical output.

[Vaz]

That and you finally have a use for all those bags of funny animals you pick up using the SRD loot tables.

One of my players has a Pet dog (Wild Cohort) that they use to hunt for the party, bringing back corpses, ranging from Squirrels etc, to even larger prey (at later levels, it brought down an Elephant). The smaller prey is kept for emergencies and the Necrocarnate.

[Bonzai]

One trick I've picked up for Necrocarnate, are wands of Halaster's Fetch Spell 1. It's like summon monster 1, but the creature is actally there and doesn't poof afterwards. Cast it, and kill the summon. Up to 7 temp Essentia per casting, and UMD is easy to come by thanks to Mage Spectacles. That comes to 420gp per casting, so not necessarily something to use every day, but can certainly come in handy.


I was really disappointed when I heard about 4th edition, as I knew there would never be a "Complete Incarnum". Which is really a shame. I loved the system, and was lead to believe that it was going to be a fully supported alternative magic system like Psyionics. So much more they could have done.