Wish as Supernatural ability?

[Melcar]

I have seen that by choosing the spell like ability high arcana from the arch mage PrC, it is possible to gain Wish as a spell like ability, twise per day, and then by Supernatural Transformation you gain Wish as a supernatural ability.

In this supernatural state does Wish cost exp? or Material components?

And how do I get unlimited uses of this?

[kabreras]

SLA gained by archmage class would harldy be innate spell-like abilities.

If you managed to get it trough it would be xp free and component free (and AOO free and counterspell free and MR free...)

[Rebel7284]

Dweomerkeeper 4 gets you supernatural spell 1/day and more frequently as you level.

[prufock]

RAW on whether Su abilities requires xp cost isn't quite clear. The only place I can really find a reference to it is in Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell, which says it doesn't require any components, just like a supernatural ability. However the description of Su abilities in the SRD doesn't say it is free of XP cost. So check with your DM.

IF dweomerkeeper text is the correct definitive source, you'd get it without XP cost. If not, the XP cost from High Arcana should carry over.

You might also run into issues with the requirement of "innate" spell-like ability. Not sure that's ever defined.

[Lord Vukodlak]

One word Zodar

[pwykersotz]

According to my reading:

Most creatures that have supernatural abilities pay no xp cost for them. However, transforming a spell into a supernatural ability does not strip the cost, only components. Thus, it would still have that xp cost. It's still really powerful, but you'd need to get thought bottle shenanigans by your DM to get it "at will".

[Chronos]

The XP cost is a component.

[Melcar]

I’m tinkering with some of my high end NPCs, so actually I am the DM, but I want the abilities they have to be raw legal.

That does not mean I have not given a more feats to some of them or given the very high stats, but still I want the characters to be as close to rule legal as possible while still fitting the concept and story of the character.

This guy (the unlimited Wish) was for a 2000 year old Lich, who have spent the last 1500 year accumulating knowledge and power, and though personal experimentation have achieved breakthroughs that have not been seen since the golden age of Netherill.

And I personally found it very fitting for him to be able to, have Wish as a supernatural ability, if not unlimited times a day, then at least numerous times. 4-6 preferably higher, without the exp cost. If its possible.

Feel free to be creative. :smallwink: and thanks by the way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Just use Dweomerkeeper, where it explicitly drops the experience cost. Even without that, it's a great archmage-y PrC.

[Thanatosia]

Page 180 of the PHB:

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component,
nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost.

[Zanos]

Page 180 of the PHB:

Archmage SLA High Arcana keeps it, though.

[Thanatosia]

Ah, you're right, wich would be a specific rule trumping a general one.

And the Feat Supernatural Transformation says nothing to suggest it would remove the xp cost in converting it to a supernatural ability. There is nothing in the discription of Supernatural abilities to suggest they cannot have an xp cost or would remove the xp cost in being converted to one from a spell like ability.

The Dweamer-keeper ability I see referenced above says it removes material, verbal, and focus requirements in converting a *SPELL* (not spell-like ability) to a supernatural ability, but specifically states that if it has an xp cost it retains that cost.

Spells which Cost XP upon casting still cost XP to use as a Supernatural Spell

So I see no valid RAW (or RAI) grounds for removing the xp cost with that feat.

[Zanos]

Ah, you're right, wich would be a specific rule trumping a general one.

And the Feat Supernatural Transformation says nothing to suggest it would remove the xp cost in converting it to a supernatural ability. There is nothing in the discription of Supernatural abilities to suggest they cannot have an xp cost or would remove the xp cost in being converted to one from a spell like ability.

The Dweamer-keeper ability I see referenced above says it removes material, verbal, and focus requirements in converting a *SPELL* (not spell-like ability) to a supernatural ability, and specifically states that if it has an xp cost it retains that cost.


So I see no valid RAW ground for removing the xp cost with that feat.

Supernatural Spell (Su): ...The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell.....

XP is a component, which Supernatural Abilities don't have.

I have no idea about Supernatural Transformation, but Supernatural Spell definitely does remove XP/GP costs from spells.

I can't find the text you quoted in relation to Dweomerkeeper.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Ah, you're right, wich would be a specific rule trumping a general one.

And the Feat Supernatural Transformation says nothing to suggest it would remove the xp cost in converting it to a supernatural ability. There is nothing in the discription of Supernatural abilities to suggest they cannot have an xp cost or would remove the xp cost in being converted to one from a spell like ability.

The Dweamer-keeper ability I see referenced above says it removes material, verbal, and focus requirements in converting a *SPELL* (not spell-like ability) to a supernatural ability, and specifically states that if it has an xp cost it retains that cost.


So I see no valid RAW ground for removing the xp cost with that feat.

The general rule for SU abilities is that they are componentless and Supernatural transformation does not specify that components are maintained therefore there are no components because of the general rule.

edit: swordsaged, I shouldn't have added useless text that I later removed

You win this time

[Thanatosia]

The general rule for SU abilities is that they are componentless and Supernatural transformation does not specify that components are maintained therefore there are no components because of the general rule.
Any idea where this general rule is located? Cuz the entire entry for Supernatural abilities in my PHB reads:

Supernatural Abilities: A dragon’s fiery breath, a medusa’s petrifying
gaze, a spectre’s energy drain, and a cleric’s use of positive or
negative energy to turn or rebuke undead are supernatural abilities
These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they
generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Supernatural
abilities are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being
dispelled by dispel magic, and do not function in areas where magic is
suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field).
I see nothing to suggest they cannot have components.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Any idea where this general rule is located? Cuz the entire entry for Supernatural abilities in my PHB reads:

I see nothing to suggest they cannot have components.

Hm, I will try looking because I could have sworn I read that they lack components about month ago. It may have been somewhere with SU abilities sometimes replicating spells and sometimes not.

edit: I cannot confirm this at the moment because I have no time left to check but I found this quote which partially confirms supernatural abilities not having components.


Supernatural abilities do not have somatic or verbal components, but certain requirements might apply to the use of individual granted abilities. For instance, a binder using a breath weapon must be able to open his mouth and breathe. Similarly, a character must have a free hand to make a melee touch attack. (In a grapple, the character makes a touch attack as though armed with a light weapon.)

I found it on This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131926)

[Thanatosia]

Well, first, that quote is from Page 19 of the Tome of Magic, and it's refering specificaly to the supernatural abilities of the Binder Class, not supernatural abilities in general.

But even if you want to broaden it to all supernatural abilities, it's only exempting them from having Verbal or Somantic Components, so XP Components are still a-ok for Supernatural abilities to have, and thus does not serve as a general rule to remove the xp cost when converting a spell or spell-like ability to a supernatural ability.

[Melcar]

Could Wish be used to get Wish as a supernatural ability, without exp component?

[kabreras]

Could Wish be used to get Wish as a supernatural ability, without exp component?

Well, it can and definitly is an option for a NPC.

Hell that lich might have searched for 1000 years the perfect wish formulation for that wish to grant it wish SLA.

I dont see any problem in that

[Zanos]

Could Wish be used to get Wish as a supernatural ability, without exp component?
Sure, but that would be go beyond the listed powers of wish and is liable to invoke the "literal or partial fulfillment" clause.

[kabreras]

Sure, but that would be go beyond the listed powers of wish and is liable to invoke the "literal or partial fulfillment" clause.

It is for a NPC lich... There is no problem

[Zanos]

It is for a NPC lich... There is no problem
If you're going to DM fiat to give NPCs special powers, go all the way. Don't say something stupid like "he used wish to give himself an exp free wish."

[Aquillion]

The Dweamer-keeper ability I see referenced above says it removes material, verbal, and focus requirements in converting a *SPELL* (not spell-like ability) to a supernatural ability, but specifically states that if it has an xp cost it retains that cost.Where are you reading that? The canon Dweomerkeeper is available for free in a web supplement (you can get it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)), and the full rules for the ability are:


Supernatural Spell (Su): At 4th level, the dweomerkeeper is so attuned to the fabric of magic that she can manifest spell effects with almost no effort whatsoever. Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target’s spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell. At every even-numbered level after the 4th, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional use of this ability per day.
It explicitly says it removes all components and that you cast it as a supernatural ability; XP is a component, as described here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level):


A spell’s components are what you must do or possess to cast it. The Components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it has. Specifics for material, focus, and XP components are given at the end of the descriptive text. Usually you don’t worry about components, but when you can’t use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important.

[Melcar]

Yeah well as I've said, I want to keep this guy as close to rule legal as possible. I was also thinking about the posibility to go Manipulate Form (Su) and grant him the ability like that.

I have looked at Dweomer Keeper, and though it is a cool class, its not for this lich. I'm not so much for the idea of him getting divine spellcasting.

Besides the obviousness of Unlimited Wished, was actually also the unlimited level 1-8 spells he would have. Thereby actually by greater celerity, never letting his enemies act, if they should be stupid enough to attack his crypt and bypass all he's servitors... That to me i find funny. And by help from Typpy i think, a permanent emanation, widen, selective, temporal repair is resulting in only him casting spells like timestop, and celerity in a 75ft radius.
:smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

Zodar has Wish as a Supernatural Ability.

Either Assume Supernatural Ability (Draconic Polymorph), or Shapechange into it will get you that.

Shapechange can be broken, as you can use it to change chape. For 3h 20 Minutes (1 minute = 10 rounds, so 3200 rounds), you can change shape as a free action.

R1; Shapechange (Standard Action) into Zodar
R2; Wish (Standard), Free Action change shape out of Zodar
R3; Free Action Change shape into Zodar, Wish (Standard)
R3; Free Action Change out of Zodar, X
R4; Free Action Change into Zodar, Wish (Standard)... Rinse and repeat.

Effectively 1600 Wishes a day.

[Melcar]

Indeed that would be a possibility... I somehow does just not feel that this ancient lich would revert to that kind of tactics. Either get it your self, or dont at all.

[Vaz]

To get unlimited uses, you could always use the Archmage's SLA (converted to SU?) to replicate Wu Jen's Body Outside Body. These clones then have Wish as the SLA, which can replicate BOB, ad infinitum.

[Agincourt]

Yeah well as I've said, I want to keep this guy as close to rule legal as possible.


Zodar has Wish as a Supernatural Ability.

Either Assume Supernatural Ability (Draconic Polymorph), or Shapechange into it will get you that.

Shapechange can be broken, as you can use it to change chape. For 3h 20 Minutes (1 minute = 10 rounds, so 3200 rounds), you can change shape as a free action.

R1; Shapechange (Standard Action) into Zodar
R2; Wish (Standard), Free Action change shape out of Zodar
R3; Free Action Change shape into Zodar, Wish (Standard)
R3; Free Action Change out of Zodar, X
R4; Free Action Change into Zodar, Wish (Standard)... Rinse and repeat.

Effectively 1600 Wishes a day.

A Zodar gets Wish as a spell-like ability once a year. I don't think this suggestion comports with the OP's desire to keep the NPC as close to rules legal as possible.

[Slipperychicken]

Could Wish be used to get Wish as a supernatural ability, without exp component?

Congratulations. You now have the (Su) ability to cast 1 Wish spell, and it costs you a level to use it.

[Necroticplague]

Yeah well as I've said, I want to keep this guy as close to rule legal as possible. I was also thinking about the posibility to go Manipulate Form (Su) and grant him the ability like that.

That seems like it would be the easiest way to do so. The lich can cast spells on himself so he's temporarily not dead (I forget the name, but know tere is one).A Savage Species ritual could give him a subtype that makes him a Scaled One. When the Sarruhk arrives, Dominate Monster: "Give me the ability to grant wishes like a genie, without that annoying 'can't use the wish for themselves' crap." Or heck, to make sure the lich qualifies, keep a dominated, mindrapped kobold, have the sarruhk give it manipulate form without the restrictions on target, then have the kobold give you the desired power.Cheesy as heck, but it works (just don't let the players catch on, or else they might figure they can try this themselves).

[kabreras]

Well i still think that the less cheesy way is to get the story in line that as an old lich he had 1000 years to write and perfect the perfect exact wording and ritual for a normal wish to grant him sla wishes.

It totally goes along with the obsesed about researchs and power lore of the lichs.

When you start bringing manipulate form into play it generally means that you already lost the contest.

[Vaz]

A Zodar gets Wish as a spell-like ability once a year. I don't think this suggestion comports with the OP's desire to keep the NPC as close to rules legal as possible.You change into a new Zodar everytime you change shape.

[Agincourt]

You change into a new Zodar everytime you change shape.

Shapechange says no such thing. That sounds like a houserule.

[Vaz]

You cannot polymorph into a unique being.

If you've used the one Wish that a Zodar gets per year, then you change Shapechange back and forth, you CANNOT, by RAW, select the same Zodar.

You take the form of a typical Zodar when you change your shape, meaning that you get access to its typical rules, notably, a 1/year Su Wish. Change Shape, Change shape into a typical Zodar, which has a 1/year Su Wish.

Change shape, Change shape again into a typical Zodar, which has a 1/year Su Wish.

Shapechange is broken for reasons other than this, but they do not help its reputation. It is the basis of Tippyverse high-Op proceedures.

[prufock]

You cannot polymorph into a unique being.

If you've used the one Wish that a Zodar gets per year, then you change Shapechange back and forth, you CANNOT, by RAW, select the same Zodar.
I really don't think "has used his yearly wish" makes a Zodar unique, any more than Dave and Bob are unique Zodars because they have different personal names. A unique creature means only one creature with that creature name exists.

I agree with your conclusion, just not this reasoning.

[Chronos]

You can't take the form of a specific being. Thus, if Mialee the Elf changes into a zodar, she becomes Mialee the Zodar. If she changes back to elf and to zodar again, she's still Mialee the Zodar. And if Mialee the Zodar has used her once-a-year Wish, then it's still used.

[TuggyNE]

Shapechange says no such thing. That sounds like a houserule.

It's less of a houserule and more of a fairly reasonable but possibly debatable ruling derived from the text; shapechange doesn't turn you into any specific creature, so there's no real reason to assume you automatically get the version without its SLA/Su use.

In fact, I'd argue that ruling that you definitely have to observe use limits or cooldowns is more of a houserule, albeit an extremely desirable one, and it's recorded in RACSD for that reason.

[prufock]

My reasoning is possibly more simple than discussing what constitutes a "unique being" or whatever.


You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form

Zodars have a 1/year wish, so each time you change form you gain a 1/year wish.

[Kraken]

If you're okay with the lich being at least 21st level, if he grabs the improved spell capacity feat for 10th level slots, he can use the runesmith (Races of Stone) capstone to make wish a SLA. This requires a one time expenditure of GP and EXP, but thereafter it requires no material or EXP components, because SLAs do not require these things unless it is specifically noted that they do, which runesmith does not indicate.


Some abilities are supernatural or spell-like. Using a spell-like ability is essentially like casting a spell (but without components; see Components, page 174), and it provokes attacks of opportunity. Using a supernatural ability is not like casting a spell. (See Chapter 8: Combat, especially Attacks of Opportunity, page 137, and Use Special Ability, page 142.)


Permanent Rune (Ex):A 5th-level runesmith knows the secret of inscribing a permanent rune of a single chosen spell into his flesh. To inscribe a permanent rune, a runesmith must ermanently sacrifi ce an arcane spell slot of one level higher than the spell to be inscribed as a permanent rune, and spend 24 hours inscribing the rune. If the spell has a costly material component, he must expend resources equal to 20 times the gp cost of the material component. If it has a costly focus, he must expend resources equal to the cost of the focus. If the spell has an XP cost, he must spend XP as if he had cast the spell normally.

Once he has inscribed a spell as a permanent rune, a runesmith can activate the chosen spell as a spell-like ability (using his arcane caster level as the caster level) twice per day.

[TuggyNE]

If you're okay with the lich being at least 21st level, if he grabs the improved spell capacity feat for 10th level slots, he can use the runesmith (Races of Stone) capstone to make wish a SLA. This requires a one time expenditure of GP and EXP, but thereafter it requires no material or EXP components, because SLAs do not require these things unless it is specifically noted that they do, which runesmith does not indicate.

The second quote specifically says that they do still need to spend XP. (Last line of first paragraph.)

[Kraken]

Yes, to craft the rune. This is not related to using the rune.

[tyckspoon]

The second quote specifically says that they do still need to spend XP. (Last line of first paragraph.)

It says they need to spend the XP to create the permanent rune. It does not say the resulting SLA requires spending the XP when you then use it. One payment of XP for 2 SLA, cost-free Wishes for the rest of your unlife? Pretty good deal, although it does require some rather weird arrangement of your level-up plan to make your last level of Runesmith fall at a spot where you have a 10th-level slot to give up.

[TuggyNE]

It says they need to spend the XP to create the permanent rune. It does not say the resulting SLA requires spending the XP when you then use it.

Ah, I see what you're saying. Fair enough, that's kind of messed up.

[Clistenes]

I have seen that by choosing the spell like ability high arcana from the arch mage PrC, it is possible to gain Wish as a spell like ability, twise per day, and then by Supernatural Transformation you gain Wish as a supernatural ability.

In this supernatural state does Wish cost exp? or Material components?

And how do I get unlimited uses of this?

I think that, typically, if you get a spell with a xp cost of around 5000 xp, as a spell-like ability, you get to use it 1/month instead of 1/day, and if you get a spell with a xp cost of around 1500 xp as a spell-like ability you get to use it 1/week instead of 1/day (no material of component cost when cast as a spell-like ability in either case).

[Melcar]

Well i still think that the less cheesy way is to get the story in line that as an old lich he had 1000 years to write and perfect the perfect exact wording and ritual for a normal wish to grant him sla wishes.

It totally goes along with the obsesed about researchs and power lore of the lichs.

When you start bringing manipulate form into play it generally means that you already lost the contest.

I like your position on this. True I wanted to get the ability by the rules, but since the rules does not supply the ability, at least not to my, satisfaction, I think I'm going to just give him the ability.

In the beginning it was just cool that he could cast wish a lot of times, then I thought that it was cool that he had basically unlimited level 1-8 spells, and lastly I find it cool for him to be able to wield magic not just in the form of a single spell, but more as a flowing energy that he can shape and make do things that most single cast spells can’t do, or either does for a short amount of time or it will be an effect that would not be worth memorizing the spell for. So beside the point that it is very powerful, it’s also very cool to be able to shape magical energies and make them into a chair or shield or just about do whatever you want it to.

Please keep the comments coming. :smallsmile: