Non-Vancian Magic Systems

[mithrawnudo]

I am on the hunt for the Holy Grail (or the Philosopher's Stone, depending on your religious preferences) of all d20-esque magic systems, the working non-Vancian system.

Now, that being said, you can effectively consider me having resided firmly under a small rock that bounded by official 3.5 and Pathfinder material, with limited GURPS, d20 Modern, and Pendragon experience.

Therefore, should the Holy Grail be known, simply point me the right way to the shrine. If not, let's brainstorm.

[Eldan]

Sooo, why not any of the official ones? Psionics or Binding are both nice and a bit better balanced than core.

[mithrawnudo]

Sooo, why not any of the official ones? Psionics or Binding are both nice and a bit better balanced than core.

Two points.
1. I don't know of any [official] Psions in PF, and my experience with Psions in 3.5 was in such a nauseating time of my life that I don't remember anything about them other than they were different and that was bad. As such, I know nothing about how their magic system works.
2. I don't even know what Binding is.

Seriously though, don't make an assumption that I know too much about anything when it comes to these kind of games.

[Zale]

I believe the Occultist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/radiance-house/occultist)is the PF version of a Binder.

[Glimbur]

Warlocks are not Vancian, but they aren't really a full magic system by themselves either. Dragonfire Adepts are similar, and also neat, but not a complete system.

Incarnum (from Magic of Incarnum) has a variety of self buffs and some unusual effects, but it is difficult to raise the dead, for example.

Binding is in Tome of Magic, and is the most popular section from that book. Shadowcasting is still similar to Vancian casting, and Truenaming is... special. In a bad way.

Psionics works a lot like video games: you get power points and you spend them to do stuff. The more you spend, the bigger stuff you can do. The most important rule is that you cannot spend more points on one power than your Manifester Level (which is a lot like Caster Level), unless you have an ability that says otherwise. Remember that, otherwise you get first level psions dealing 15d6 damage and then sleeping for the day.

What should a magic system be able to do, in your opinion?

[Domriso]

If you're looking for strictly official materials for Pathfinder, you're pretty much out of luck. They have Words of Power, but that really is just a bit of a different Vancian system.

If you're willing to look to 3.5 for inspiration then there are some options, from Psionics to Incarnum to Binding (I'd avoid Shadowcasting and Truenaming).

If you're willing to look into homebrew stuff, there's a whole variety of schtuff you could find. I myself love variant magic systems, so I sort of collect (and make) them.

[mithrawnudo]

What should a magic system be able to do, in your opinion?

The most major concern to me are avoiding the 15-minute workday effect. Also, the simulation of "realistic" (what does that even mean, really?) magic, in that Scorching Ray can be used to start a campfire, and used multiple times per day.

I will say that I have yet to see a good and working Mana Pool system.


If you're willing to look to 3.5 for inspiration then there are some options, from Psionics to Incarnum to Binding (I'd avoid Shadowcasting and Truenaming).

If you're willing to look into homebrew stuff, there's a whole variety of schtuff you could find. I myself love variant magic systems, so I sort of collect (and make) them.

This is a homebrew system for me (all of my games are heavily homebrewed, we ran an actual Adventure Path one time, and within minutes everyone was off the rails and it ended poorly) and as such, I have no issue with homebrew/3.5.

[Anachronity]

Binders are my absolute favorite base class in D&D. You bind a number of beings called vestiges to your soul, beginning at one but increasing with level. Each of these vestiges has granted powers which your character gets, and many of them are useable once per 5 rounds. Most of the activated effects of vestiges are pretty tame compared to real spells, so this might not be a good system for a full-on caster.

Psionics could be easily adapted into a mana pool system simply by replacing psionic power points (PSPs) with mana. The only issue is that you would have to include augmentation rules for every spell, but most of them are straightforward (1d6 more damage per mana point, +1 save DC per 2 mana points, etc.).

I honestly think truenaming has potential. You basically make a skill check in order to use an utterance (in your case it could be a spellcraft check to use a spell) but the check gets more difficult each time the same utterance is used. The main issue with truenaming is that the DC to use an utterance scales with twice the challenge rating of the target, while your truenaming skill only increases by 1 point per level, plus occasional bonuses. This is easy enough to fix simply by giving truenamers a bonus to truenaming equal to their level, or else fixing the DC to scale off of one time the CR. However, truenaming also has a second issue in that skills are too easy to buff to attach something as powerful as spellcasting to one. That's the same reason why epic spellcasting is broken (even above and beyond normal spellcasting).

I don't know much about Pathfinder specifically, but unless you're the DM or else you can convince your DM to use your homebrew conversion of one of the alternate systems I don't think there are alternate magic systems for it.

[Seerow]

The most major concern to me are avoiding the 15-minute workday effect. Also, the simulation of "realistic" (what does that even mean, really?) magic, in that Scorching Ray can be used to start a campfire, and used multiple times per day.

I will say that I have yet to see a good and working Mana Pool system.

You could use something like the psionics system, but modified so characters get fewer power points available at any given time, but can refresh their pool of power points given a few minutes of meditation. I use something along those lines for my Soulknife, and it works out well; avoiding the 15 minute work day (by restricting nova potential and increasing overall endurance) while allowing spammable powers and still having some semblance of characters getting worn down over time.


Edit: For other ideas, it really depends. What do you personally define as vancian? Is it the fire and forget style of casting? Is it spell slots? Is it discrete abilities broken up into 9 tiers? What exactly are you looking for in a non-vancian system? If you get specific enough about what you want, we can probably help come up with something that works for you. But vancian means different things to different people, and apparently you do have problems with several other non-vancian systems that already exist. So more information on exactly what you're looking for would be more helpful than us listing off different things in D&D and seeing if you like it or not.

[mithrawnudo]

I don't know much about Pathfinder specifically, but unless you're the DM or else you can convince your DM to use your homebrew conversion of one of the alternate systems I don't think there are alternate magic systems for it.

I am the [permanent] DM, in a comical turn of events, I got to play 1 session as a player, for the first time in 4 years a few weeks ago.


Edit: For other ideas, it really depends. What do you personally define as vancian? Is it the fire and forget style of casting? Is it spell slots? Is it discrete abilities broken up into 9 tiers? What exactly are you looking for in a non-vancian system? If you get specific enough about what you want, we can probably help come up with something that works for you. But vancian means different things to different people, and apparently you do have problems with several other non-vancian systems that already exist. So more information on exactly what you're looking for would be more helpful than us listing off different things in D&D and seeing if you like it or not.

Vancian to me is really the spell slots that lend themselves so much to a short adventuring period followed up by a "needed rest" for the casters. Now, sure, plenty of classes have features that are used up over the course of the day, like the Barbarian's rage, but many times in my games, even after the Barbarian has used up all his rages, he continues to adventure.
The Wizard/Cleric does not. As soon as they have blasted their spells (this is especially seen in lower levels where a Cleric may have 6-7 spells a day), they want to rest, while the Fighter is basically still ready to go.
The reason that I don't like mana pools is that it doesn't solve the issue of the 15-minute workday. Which is my real beginning, middle, and end complaint about Vancian systems.


You could use something like the psionics system, but modified so characters get fewer power points available at any given time, but can refresh their pool of power points given a few minutes of meditation. I use something along those lines for my Soulknife, and it works out well; avoiding the 15 minute work day (by restricting nova potential and increasing overall endurance) while allowing spammable powers and still having some semblance of characters getting worn down over time.

This seems like it has potential, but I'm worried that it could run right into the other issue that casters have in 3.5/PF, which is to say their sheer power. Does this make the casters even more powerful than they already are?

[FrankLuke]

The Hucksters (http://celticpunkin.blogspot.com/2013/01/deadlands-hucksters-and-hexesoh-my.html) in Deadlands have a system that I have not seen elsewhere.

They have no spell slots. They have few mana points.* Each spell is a gamble, literally. They gamble with spirits. If the huckster wins, the spell is cast. If the spirit wins, the huckster takes backlash. The bigger the spell, the bigger the potential for backlash. The bigger the failure, the bigger the backlash.

*They had none until Reloaded. Now they have a few and can cast some spells without "dealing with the Devil," but once used, they come back slowly. Eventually, the huckster has to make the deal. I like the old way.

Hucksters cast their spells by drawing cards. The better the hand, the more effective the spell. However, a bad hand (like pulling a joker), brings backlash. More powerful hexes require better hands.

You start with so many hexes that you have learned and can learn more as you go by using bounty points. Those who use cards start with 5-card draws. As they progress and gain relics, they can get more cards in a single hand and make the best hand of five out of (say) seven.

A good explanation of the individual hexes is here (http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31346&sid=ca5e1899e47523e6568de2e2bf77d6da).

[Seerow]

Vancian to me is really the spell slots that lend themselves so much to a short adventuring period followed up by a "needed rest" for the casters. Now, sure, plenty of classes have features that are used up over the course of the day, like the Barbarian's rage, but many times in my games, even after the Barbarian has used up all his rages, he continues to adventure.
The Wizard/Cleric does not. As soon as they have blasted their spells (this is especially seen in lower levels where a Cleric may have 6-7 spells a day), they want to rest, while the Fighter is basically still ready to go.
The reason that I don't like mana pools is that it doesn't solve the issue of the 15-minute workday. Which is my real beginning, middle, and end complaint about Vancian systems.

In this case, what you want is a system to discourage casters from novaing, instead either straight up preventing them from doing so (as my suggestion went), or strongly discouraging it (Shadowrun, for example, does this by instead of limiting how many spells you can cast, making casters take damage when they cast powerful spells).

Other possibilities include baking something like reserve feats into the system (so holding onto your spells lets you spam weaker at-will abilities, while blowing the spells leaves you defenseless). Or, since your issue is with casters running out of resources, go in reverse. Where Reserve feats provide a benefit until you cast the spell, you could have it so after you cast a spell, it gets you access to a weaker spammable power. So a Wizard always has the same number of options available, but towards the end of the day those options are weaker than they were at the start.

Alternatively you could go for something like Warlocks or Binders as others recommended above, where you get a bunch of at will capabilities (or abilities on a short cooldown), with no daily abilities. This stops the 15 minute workday dead.

The reason casters want to quit adventuring when they run out of spells is because as soon as they're out of spells, they're dead weight. Nobody likes being useless. And nothing says useless like the 5th level Wizard plinking away with a Crossbow with +3 to hit for 1d8 damage per round.


This seems like it has potential, but I'm worried that it could run right into the other issue that casters have in 3.5/PF, which is to say their sheer power. Does this make the casters even more powerful than they already are?


It depends on where your issue with their power is. If the issue lies in potential to go nova on whatever challenge is in front of them and then rest immediately, it solves that problem entirely.

If your problem is that they utterly outclass mundanes because they have tons of utility, and mundanes aren't allowed to have nice things, then yeah, this makes the problem much worse. Because while it stops the 15 minute work day, it does extend endurance of the caster, which is normally the mundane's strong suit. But you're frankly not going to get a solution that fixes the 15 minute work day without impinging on mundanes without either rewriting all of the mundanes to give them more utility toys, or rewriting all of the spells to take away a bunch of their toys.

As a middle ground though, you could limit the spell selection some.

Taking the same general principle of what you were responding to, imagine if instead of a limited pool of power points, a Wizard got 4-8 spell slots. Half of the slots can be spent on his top two spell levels, the other half can be spent on any others. Spending some time meditating recovers 2 spell slots of each category. You can do the meditation thing say int mod times a day.

Now if the Wizard wants to have a ton of utility, he's sacrificing combat options. If he wants to be casting 1-2 spells in every round of combat, he's sacrificing his utility. But in either case he 1) Has something to be doing at all times 2) Has greatly reduced nova capability 3) Has much increased endurance.

[mithrawnudo]

Or, since your issue is with casters running out of resources, go in reverse. Where Reserve feats provide a benefit until you cast the spell, you could have it so after you cast a spell, it gets you access to a weaker spammable power. So a Wizard always has the same number of options available, but towards the end of the day those options are weaker than they were at the start.

I like that reverse option. That way the caster doesn't feel like he can't blast the spell when he needs to, and it still gives him options. I will expound on exactly what I mean below.


If your problem is that they utterly outclass mundanes because they have tons of utility, and mundanes aren't allowed to have nice things, then yeah, this makes the problem much worse. Because while it stops the 15 minute work day, it does extend endurance of the caster, which is normally the mundane's strong suit. But you're frankly not going to get a solution that fixes the 15 minute work day without impinging on mundanes without either rewriting all of the mundanes to give them more utility toys, or rewriting all of the spells to take away a bunch of their toys.

As a middle ground though, you could limit the spell selection some.

Taking the same general principle of what you were responding to, imagine if instead of a limited pool of power points, a Wizard got 4-8 spell slots.

Yeah, I don't think that there is a way to make the Wizards not do a 15-minute workday without making them slightly more powerful, however, so long as they don't have access to their biggest spells, I think that works.

What I was thinking was design a series of spammables based on the spell level that the Wizard can access. For instance, our 8th level Wizard can cast up to 4th level spells, and he prepares a spammable evocation spell that is 4d4 (4th level spell) either as a standard action all day or 3 + INT modifier (this reflects the domain sort of at wills that many clerics forget about).

Obviously, each school of magic would need a working, but the idea remains that the Wizard would simply prepare that instead of another spell for the day. Possibly we can remove the fact that these spells use a spell slot, and simply do what you suggested above.

I'm not sure that this would completely remove the problem, but it would certainly extend the workday.

[mikalife1]

if you want a look at pathfinder psionics the dreamscarred press psionics stuff is on the official pathfinder srd d20pfsrd.com. they have done the original psionic base classes(and they fixed the soulknife finally) and they did 6 new base classes. also some prc's and they did archetypes for all the psionics base classes and some psionic archetypes for the standard classes.

[Lappy9001]

Spell point systems are generally a good thing. Assuming you've covered the bases of:


A) Spells themselves aren't extremely overpowered
B) You can only spend so many points at a time
C) Spells are all created to be augmented


3.5 psionics generally does a pretty good job of this. I've just seen far too many people forget the psionic golden rule of "You can only spend power points equal to your manifester level" spend all their power points on a single power and declare it unbalanced without ever looking at it again.

Of course, you may need to start from the ground up. 3.5 psionics works within the existing spell framework of 3.5, which is pretty dang unbalanced. If spells routinely render classes useless, no system-swapping will fix this problem. It doesn't help that psioonics has a bit of a 'non-magic' feel to it that may turn some players away.

I agree with the other folks that Binder is a pretty legit (and extremely flavorful) way to go.

Have you considered using spells like 4e powers or Tomb of Battle maneuvers/stances? Both offer a pretty solid take on magical effects.

[Grek]

Psionics in the D&D style encourage Novaing even harder than Vancian style spellcasting. At least with spell slots, you can't blow all your magic in a single ultra-augmented power.

What it sounds like the OP wants is basically a bunch of themed Warlocks, where instead of getting all demon powers, some of them are illusionists, some are necromancers, some are summoners, and so on and so forth. I don't know of anything like that which actually exists as an official publication, but them's the breaks.

A quick and dirty house rule that does roughly what you want is the following:

"Unlike most spells, Evocations are not expended when cast. They remain prepared for a preparation-based spellcaster and do not expend spell slots for a spontaneous spellcaster. An evocation is only expended when a character regains their spell slots."

As long as your Wizard prepares at least 1 Evocation, the party doesn't need to stop for him to prepare more spells. He can just keep trucking with Magic Missile all day long. For bonus points, you can add house rule #2:

"All Cure X Wounds and Inflict spells are evocations."

[Seerow]

Psionics in the D&D style encourage Novaing even harder than Vancian style spellcasting. At least with spell slots, you can't blow all your magic in a single ultra-augmented power.

You can't do that in psionics either fyi.

[SethoMarkus]

A quick and dirty house rule that does roughly what you want is the following:

-- snip --


You essentially just described Reserve Feats from Complete Mage and Complete Champion.

Although already mentioned, I doubly suggest Reserve Feats as a way to keep casters running all day long. Though, personally, in low OP games I find the limited resources of casters to be the balancing factor (of what balance there may be). Sure, the Fighter can take out goblins all day long, but the Wizard can take out just as many with a single wave of his hand... once per day.

[Grek]

At level 1, you can definitely use 100% of your 2 PP on a single power with just Overchannel. This steadily goes down to 24% of your PP in a single round at level 5, but jumps right back up to 60% at level 6 through a combination of Opportunity Power and Quicken Power. That's assuming you're a Psion, of course. Psychic Warriors have fewer points and it takes less effort for them to expend all of them.

[Seerow]

At level 1, you can definitely use 100% of your 2 PP on a single power with just Overchannel.

You mean like the Wizard can spend 100% of his 1 spell slots with a single spell, without wasting a feat on it? (And no cantrips don't count. Seriously nobody cares about 1d3 damage even at level 1).

Of course if the Wizard has bonus spell slots, the Psion has extra points from high attribute. At level 1 a Psion has 1-2 bonus PP from intelligence, and possibly another couple points from race or feat.

At no point does a Psion who actually wants to be a psion (read: Has even semi-decent int at 14) have few enough points to blow everything in one power.


And if you want to talk about high level characters using their capabilities to blow multiple powers per round, first you've already invalidated your "blow all PP on a single big power" claim, and second can be done just as easily by a Wizard who has so many action economy breaking tricks it's not even funny. Difference is when the Wizard does it, he's dropping a multitude more spells, and most of them more effective than the psion's powers.

I'm also curious how your Psion at 6th level has Overchannel, Quicken Power, Opportunity Power, and two psionic focuses (requires two more feats). Not to mention all of the restrictions on when you can use Opportunity power.


Edit: And even with all of that, Overchannel boosts your max pp expenditure by 1 until level 8. Quicken Power and Opportunity Power both increase the cost by 6. So for blowing all of that PP, your net effect is dealing 3d8 damage to yourself, and getting 2 extra 1st level powers. Hardly overpowering in the way you imply.

[WaylanderX]

Is homebrew fair game? If yes, take a look at these classes I made, each of them with a home-made magic system:

Goaler of Frostflame: Chain Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246724) (Semi-vancian, Combo-based)
Delirionist: Insanity Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265575) (Advanced stuff, be warned, Non-vancian)
Spellguide: Beacon Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250627) (Stack-based, secondary stage of magic Semi-vancian)
Disciple of Anima: Soul Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15510910#post15510910) (Individual based amount of spells)

Excuse my shameless self promotion. I hope this helps at least to inspire.

Cheers,

Way

[nonsi]

I am on the hunt for the Holy Grail (or the Philosopher's Stone, depending on your religious preferences) of all d20-esque magic systems, the working non-Vancian system.

Now, that being said, you can effectively consider me having resided firmly under a small rock that bounded by official 3.5 and Pathfinder material, with limited GURPS, d20 Modern, and Pendragon experience.

Therefore, should the Holy Grail be known, simply point me the right way to the shrine. If not, let's brainstorm.

Try this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202011).

[Grek]

You mean like the Wizard can spend 100% of his 1 spell slots with a single spell, without wasting a feat on it? (And no cantrips don't count. Seriously nobody cares about 1d3 damage even at level 1).
It depends on the cantrip, really. Acid Splash is lame like a peg leg, but Daze, Detect Magic and Ghost Sound can make for a meaningful contribution to the adventure.


I'm also curious how your Psion at 6th level has Overchannel, Quicken Power, Opportunity Power, and two psionic focuses (requires two more feats). Not to mention all of the restrictions on when you can use Opportunity power.Human Psion. He takes Overchannel (1st), Talented (Human Bonus), Psicrystal Affinity (1st Psion Bonus), Psicrystal Containment (3rd), Quicken Power (5th Psion Bonus) and Opportunity Power (6th). A Psychic Warrior can do the same and gets an extra bonus feat. I've seen one do it, in fact.

But, really, the point isn't that blowing all of your power points in a single round is somehow a good idea, overpowered, or even something that a reasonably built Psion would be able to do. The point is that people will do it despite all the reasons not to, and when they do they'll whine and moan about how the party should rest so they can regain their power points. Which is what the entire thread is about: Which classes tend to go nova and run out of powers and which ones do not. Psionics-based classes are definitely in the former camp.

[Seerow]

It depends on the cantrip, really. Acid Splash is lame like a peg leg, but Daze, Detect Magic and Ghost Sound can make for a meaningful contribution to the adventure.

Human Psion. He takes Overchannel (1st), Talented (Human Bonus), Psicrystal Affinity (1st Psion Bonus), Psicrystal Containment (3rd), Quicken Power (5th Psion Bonus) and Opportunity Power (6th). A Psychic Warrior can do the same and gets an extra bonus feat. I've seen one do it, in fact.

But, really, the point isn't that blowing all of your power points in a single round is somehow a good idea, overpowered, or even something that a reasonably built Psion would be able to do. The point is that people will do it despite all the reasons not to, and when they do they'll whine and moan about how the party should rest so they can regain their power points. Which is what the entire thread is about: Which classes tend to go nova and run out of powers and which ones do not. Psionics-based classes are definitely in the former camp.

Let's go back and look at your original complaint:

Psionics in the D&D style encourage Novaing even harder than Vancian style spellcasting. At least with spell slots, you can't blow all your magic in a single ultra-augmented power.


Now go look at what you just wrote. There is a huge gulf of disconnect here. Your original post implied that a Psion could dump all of his PP into a SINGLE POWER and the result was novaing HARDER than vancian spellcasting.

This is blatantly false. As is the idea that a vancian caster couldn't blow all of his meaningful spell slots (top 2-3 spell levels) in the first round with similar levels of investment.



If you are changing your argument to a Psion can run out of steam faster than a Wizard while having less net effect and using various effects to activate multiple powers, then I can't argue against that, it is a potential issue. But it is something completely different from the original claim I took issue with. I also posted my suggested fix for PP to make it less prone to novaing early on in the thread.