An unsual question about tiers

[paperarmor]

How do they interact within a character build? would a wizard/fighter still be tier 1 or would they average out to some lower tier?

[eggynack]

It's actually a question that's answered within the tier system itself. To quote said system:


Q: But what about dips? I mean, I rarely see anyone playing single class characters. What would a Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 be, for example?

A: It's pretty simple. This system is paying attention to the fact that people are more likely to take the early levels of a class than the later levels, either because they simply don't get to a level where they'd see the late levels, or because of dipping. Generally speaking, a mix of classes should end up being as high up as the most powerful class in the mix if it's optimized, or somewhere in the middle of the classes used if not very optimized, and below them both if it's really strangely done. A Barbarian 1/Fighter 6 that's optimized would thus be Tier 4 generally, because it took the best qualities of a Barbarian (probably pounce, rage, and so on) and then made it stronger. Generally, you don't multiclass out unless you get something better by doing so, so you're usually going to end up at least as strong as the strongest class. This isn't always true, but it generally is. Meanwhile, if you do something silly like Wizard 4/Sorcerer 4, you might end up much lower. But assuming you're not doing anything rediculous, a combination of Tier 4 and Tier 5 classes will usually be Tier 4, though it might be Tier 5. Similar examples would be that a Scout/Ranger is probably going to be Tier 4 (though because there's a multiclassing feat for that, it could end up Tier 3), a Monk 1/Druid X will be Tier 1, a Fighter 2/Warblade X will be Tier 3, and so on.

[Invader]

There's not an exact science for how they'd measure up but certainly if you mix something higher with something lower its going to lower its overall effectiveness, especially in the case of casters and losing caster levels. That being said I'm sure there are also some dips that will increase the overall effectiveness of a build or class even if that dip is lower on the tier list.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think it was covered in the original thread, but multi-classes are either the tier of the lower tier class if they retain most of it's functionality or they drop down if they don't.

The tier system doesn't as a ruleapply to specific builds, but we can eyeball things as if they were classes.

Alternating Wizard and Fighter every level, would effectively be a medium BAB half caster with bonus feats, which would probably be a high tier 4.

[paperarmor]

ok thanks guys!

[Lans]

A number of mundane classes are front loaded, and a fighter 2/monk 2 swashbuckler 1 would likely be closer to tier 4.

A fighter wizard would likely be able to rock melee pretty hard while having spells like fly, alterself, dimension door and scry and thus be tier 3ish

[NemoX]

So, what would a monk/sorcerer to enlightened fisrt PrC would be considered?

[Novawurmson]

So, what would a monk/sorcerer to enlightened fisrt PrC would be considered?

Probably tier 2ish. You're only using a few caster levels, so you're getting most of the good things of the sorcerer, plus some of the good things of the monk. All the lost caster levels might drop it to 3 (which is still very good, of course).

[NemoX]

Probably tier 2ish. You're only using a few caster levels, so you're getting most of the good things of the sorcerer, plus some of the good things of the monk. All the lost caster levels might drop it to 3 (which is still very good, of course).

Well, my group and I were discussing tiers the other day and one of them has never actually tried a monk so he is neutral on it, while another swears by them, and another says they suck. So it lead to us discussing a campaign where all of us play some type of monk/other class or straight up monk. I figured I'd go sorcerer for the mage armor, fists of stone and enlarge person mostly during the first few levels, and then prestige to enlightened fist. Another player is going the other side of the coin with cleric/monk/sacred fist. Just wanted to know where it stood at the end of the day lol.

Somebody is actually going to do monk/bard. Not sure what he plans to do with it. Not to mention the other cleric/monk with knowledge religion and craft carpenter stuff called jesus....

[Seerow]

Well, my group and I were discussing tiers the other day and one of them has never actually tried a monk so he is neutral on it, while another swears by them, and another says they suck. So it lead to us discussing a campaign where all of us play some type of monk/other class or straight up monk. I figured I'd go sorcerer for the mage armor, fists of stone and enlarge person mostly during the first few levels, and then prestige to enlightened fist. Another player is going the other side of the coin with cleric/monk/sacred fist. Just wanted to know where it stood at the end of the day lol.

It really depends on the rest of the build. Ideally you want to minimize the monk as much as possible, ideally taking only one level in it (okay ideally you want no levels in it, but that goes against the spirit of what you're doing).

Personally, I'd recommend dipping out of Enlightened fist after 5 levels, before losing that second caster level, and hop into Abjurant Champion or some other typical gish PrC instead. If you can manage to go on pumping up your BAB and not losing more than the 2 CLs from Monk and Sacred Fist 1, you should remain a solid tier 2. Drop a bunch of caster levels by spending more time in monk, taking more prestige levels that drop your level, etc, is going to likely knock you down to tier 3 (and possibly make you just unplayable at certain points of the game, despite averaging out to tier 3 overall.)


Somebody is actually going to do monk/bard. Not sure what he plans to do with it

Doesn't one require lawful and one require chaotic?

[Karnith]

Doesn't one require lawful and one require chaotic?
Bard only requires nonlawful, and if the player takes Monk levels first, changes his alignment, and never advances further as a Monk, it will work within the rules.
Also, Chaos Monk.
Granted, I don't see any synergy there, but you can do it if you want.

[NemoX]

Doesn't one require lawful and one require chaotic?

meh, that's his plan anyway. Maybe he intends to do something similar to what the OTHER member of our group is doing: starting out monk for a couple levels, then justifying in-game some sort of mid-life crisis or crisis of faith or something to force an alignment change (since you retain monk abilities anyway) and going barbarian....quite scary to think about if you ask me all things considered

[Kelb_Panthera]

You'll have to guesstimate how close your final build compares to a single-class build of one of the ranked classes. Whichever it's closest to in power and versatility is probably going to be adequate to estimate which tier it belongs in.

A monk/ sorcerer/ enlightened fist will be somewhere between tiers 2 and 6 depending on how much monk there is compared to how much sorcerer there is and how well his spells were chosen and it will likely fluctuate a little from level to level. If it's built well it'll probably hover closer to T2 but if it falls into all of the newb traps and it's more of a monk with some spells than a sorcerer that can fight it'll be closer to T6.

There's a reason that JaronK didn't try to put prestige classes or multiclassing into it except for passing mention; build trumps tier to a significant margin.

[NemoX]

if it falls into all of the newb traps and it's more of a monk with some spells than a sorcerer that can fight it'll be closer to T6.


It was going to be AT MOST 3 levels monk, mostly due to wanting to maximize the skill points needed for the PrC without having to cross-class and waste them. then sorcerer 3 (cause is the minimun requirement for the PrC) and jump into Enlght Fst at 7. Not sure if there's a better way. Was aiming for tier 3 as the lowest :(

[Grod_The_Giant]

You'd probably be best off doing Monk 1/Sorcerer 4-- you can get all the skills through a straight Sorcerer, and 2/3 feats from the one-level Monk dip. Don't forget to grab Ascetic Mage so you can power your Monk abilities off Charisma.

[NemoX]

You'd probably be best off doing Monk 1/Sorcerer 4-- you can get all the skills through a straight Sorcerer, and 2/3 feats from the one-level Monk dip. Don't forget to grab Ascetic Mage so you can power your Monk abilities off Charisma.

Ok, I'll see what I can do. Its a 32 pt buy and I didnt have a lot in INT so am not gaining much skill-wise. mostly dex/WIS/CHA. So that right there is part of my problem lol.

Thanks for the advice

[Rubik]

Instead of monk/sorcerer, what about monk/psion, monk/ardent, or monk/psychic warrior? There's a feat in Secrets of Sarlona (Tashalatora) that allows you to stack monk stuff with a psionic class of your choice. Alternatively, you could go for a PrC and hit War Mind or Psionic Fist instead.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd probably go monk 2/ sorcerer 3 and then go into EF. Evasion and that second bonus feat are probably worth the extra lost caster level. You weren't getting 9ths anyway.

There's still the matter of your chosen spells. While sorcerers are T2 by default they have a -really- low optimization floor; not as low as a wizard but still horribly low. This means that an individual sorcerer can bottom out at T6. Sufficient optimization can push them up to T1 too but it's a -lot- harder than swinging the other way.

[NemoX]

Instead of monk/sorcerer, what about monk/psion, monk/ardent, or monk/psychic warrior? There's a feat in Secrets of Sarlona (Tashalatora) that allows you to stack monk stuff with a psionic class of your choice. Alternatively, you could go for a PrC and hit War Mind or Psionic Fist instead.


Unfortunately my DM / host does not like/understand psionics, meaning they are banned. Even if he is a player and not the DM, he throws a hissy fit whenever things arent to his liking and the group just decided its better to indulge than argue, so I dont think we will ever play using those sources even on the other campaigns we run. Standard, FR and Eberron are pretty much the sources we ever play with. Not even Pathfinder is an option :(

[Novawurmson]

Eberron has psionics baseline, though...

[Kennisiou]

I feel like a lot of you guys are unjustly writing off the monk. Even without full Tippymonk style shenanigans, two levels of monk is pretty awesome. d8 HD, +1 BaB, +3 all saves, 3 bonus feats (imp unarmed strike and the other two choice feats), wis to AC, and evasion. That's before taking any of their awesome ACFs like Invisible Fist, martial monk, and Decisisve Strike. I look at 2 levels monk as a lot better than 2 levels fighter on any martial build that likes wisdom or int (kung fu genius/carmendine monk is a pretty small "feat tax" for int based monk shenanigans). Sure, monk falls off hard afterwards, but having class features frontloaded doesn't make it a bad class. Pretty much any non-initiator martial class has its features frontloaded like that, and few people seem to revile those classes as much as monk.

[NemoX]

Eberron has psionics baseline, though...

Let me re-phrase: he doesn't like/understand psionics. So we can use eberron so long as we dont use the psionics part of it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I feel like a lot of you guys are unjustly writing off the monk. Even without full Tippymonk style shenanigans, two levels of monk is pretty awesome. d8 HD, +1 BaB, +3 all saves, 3 bonus feats (imp unarmed strike and the other two choice feats), wis to AC, and evasion. That's before taking any of their awesome ACFs like Invisible Fist, martial monk, and Decisisve Strike. I look at 2 levels monk as a lot better than 2 levels fighter on any martial build that likes wisdom or int (kung fu genius/carmendine monk is a pretty small "feat tax" for int based monk shenanigans). Sure, monk falls off hard afterwards, but having class features frontloaded doesn't make it a bad class. Pretty much any non-initiator martial class has its features frontloaded like that, and few people seem to revile those classes as much as monk.

Monk 2 is a fine addition to many builds. The problem is that the more monk you get the less you get from it and what you get from it doesn't go well together. That latter portion is why monk is reviled so much more than other front-loaded classes; at least what little those classes get actually goes with the front-loaded primary features.

[12owlbears]

Let me re-phrase: he doesn't like/understand psionics. So we can use eberron so long as we dont use the psionics part of it.

I can understand not liking psionics but not understanding it? it's just magic with points, it's in the SRD, and 3.5 removed the psychic grappling thing from 3.0. sorry personal rant in other news monk/sorcerer sounds like a good build to me.

[NemoX]

I can understand not liking psionics but not understanding it? it's just magic with points, it's in the SRD, and 3.5 removed the psychic grappling thing from 3.0. sorry personal rant in other news monk/sorcerer sounds like a good build to me.

I think it's pretty straightforward. He is just....a little tantrum-ish. Either way, I have been considering trying to find a different group, even if it didnt get together as often, but it's hard where I live. and I am unfamiliar with online gatherings for these purposes. Just to try somebody new you know?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'd probably go monk 2/ sorcerer 3 and then go into EF. Evasion and that second bonus feat are probably worth the extra lost caster level. You weren't getting 9ths anyway.

There's still the matter of your chosen spells. While sorcerers are T2 by default they have a -really- low optimization floor; not as low as a wizard but still horribly low. This means that an individual sorcerer can bottom out at T6. Sufficient optimization can push them up to T1 too but it's a -lot- harder than swinging the other way.

I don't think Wizards have lower optimization floor than sorcerer, if a wizard get's bad spells for the day (or even at level up) it is trivially easy to change to a better load out, while a sorcerer in the same situation is SOL (well they get to change spells every... 4th level I think?, but that is only one).

So yeah, Sorc have lower optimization floors than wizards.

[Rubik]

How about martial chaos monk 2/barbarian 1/ToB class or totemist?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think Wizards have lower optimization floor than sorcerer, if a wizard get's bad spells for the day (or even at level up) it is trivially easy to change to a better load out, while a sorcerer in the same situation is SOL (well they get to change spells every... 4th level I think?, but that is only one).

So yeah, Sorc have lower optimization floors than wizards.

They -both- have to choose what spells they know and while the wizard gets far more opportunities to correct any bad choices it doesn't change the fact that those bad choices hurt him even more since he not only has poorly selected spells but must also contend with the tactical inflexibility of having to prepare those poorly chosen spells.

At their respective floors they're both little better than commoners but at least the sorcerer is proficient in all simple weapons and can use whichever of his known spells is applicable to a given situation, if any, while the wizard has to -hope- that he's got the right one(s) prepared, having prepared spells in all of his slots since leaving some open would raise him -above- his op floor.