Building a Gish 3.5

[Reprimand]

Note that before you say you should go psychic rogue just know that it's banned and were pretty much using PHB+DMG+MM+COMPELTE (not champion though).

My currently build is rog4/wiz1/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5.

I'm really just trying to have no weaknesses rather than going for full out power or anything. I'd be able to have decent skills, 8th level spells, good AC and four attacks per round. I'm also planning on getting into the two weapon fighting tree for more sneak attacks, total of seven attacks per round.

It's 30 Point buy and looks like this: str 12, dex 14, con 12, int 14, wis 12, cha 14.

Any ideas for improving without going outside of the books I listed above would be great.

[CombatOwl]

Note that before you say you should go psychic rogue just know that it's banned and were pretty much using core. (PHB+DMG+MM+COMPELTE[not champion though])

My currently build is rog4/wiz1/Unseen Seer 10/Abjurant Champion 5.

Not a gish by any stretch of the imagination. You lose, what 6 BAB from that? You've got a lower BAB than a cleric, and worse casting. That's a bad way to build a gish. Even the classic fighter/wizard/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight fares better than that. To say nothing of a Sorcadin.


I'm really just trying to have no weaknesses rather than going for full out power or anything. I'd be able to have decent skills, 8th level spells, good AC and four attacks per round.

A proper "gish" hits level 20 with more BAB than a cleric and 9th level arcane spells. A gish is already worse than a primary caster, doing it the way you're proposing just makes it even more pointless.

You can cast spells, fight well, or have good skills. Pick two. Or, I suppose, you can play a (cloistered) cleric and get all three. But clerics are broken.


I'm also planning on getting into the two weapon fighting tree for more sneak attacks, total of seven attacks per round.

In the immortal words of Roy: "Oh good, you can be useless twice in the same round." Except in your case it's seven times in the same round. Sneak attacks with full attacks are very action-consuming to setup in 3.5e. Doable with tricks like invisible blade, or with some means of going invisible with a swift action, but otherwise you're better off just cranking up the static damage and not worrying about trying to flank or deny dex.


It's 30 Point buy and looks like this: str 12, dex 14, con 12, int 14, wis 12, cha 14.

Any ideas for improving without going outside of the books I listed above would be great.

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7

You end up with a better BAB (you only lose 3 BAB), better class features, casting that's every bit as good, and you only need to stack charisma. Hell, you even get +Cha to saves.

Or, again, just play cleric 20 and grab the domains to fill out the spells you feel are missing from the cleric list. Or druid. Either of them do melee + casting better than gishes.

[sideswipe]

what feats do you have?

[Reprimand]

It's fractional BAB

I would have +16 which is better than a cleric.

TWF would be hard to hit on the last 2 attacks but when applying bonuses such as being invisible I would still stand a good chance of hitting.

How would I go about having Having no weaknesses without cross-classing ridiculously? I really also wanted to keep unseen seer.

@above I'm still working on building the character I was hoping to get ideas from other people.

I also didn't want to just Gish I also wanted to be able to rogue it up.

@combatowl I really wanted to play a rogueisque gish not just a combat/spell machine. I wanted to have no weaknesses not be good at just two things.

[thethird]

So... what sources are you using because fractional bab ain't from the listed sources.

Cleric 20 is better in defense than what you have. If you want to make it roguelike kobold and trickery domain would make you a better rogue than the rogue.

[Reprimand]

The DM is pulling that out of his own books for the campaign rules the players aren't allowed to draw classes/feats/etc from non-core. He feels it's more balanced that way.

I'm not just trying to be a tank anyway. I just want to be able to do a lot of things also I'm trying not to focus on divine magic.

[thethird]

so... what do you want and what can you use?

If you can only use core for classes etc, cleric or druid are your only gishes. There is no other way of getting 16 BAB and 9th level spells.

[Reprimand]

I listed this in the first few sentences of the OP. PHB+DMG+MM+COMPLETE(NOT CHAMPION)

He also makes exceptions for spells or items if they won't have a game changing impact on the game. i.e. healing belt spam or badge of valor bards etc.

[GreenETC]

The only thing I think I would consider your biggest weakness is that you don't have 9th level spells. The difference between Rogue 4/Wizard 1 and Rogue 1/Wizard 4 with fractionals is one point of BaB over an entire 1.5 spell levels. It's not worth it to go that high in Rogue. Two Weapon Fighting is rather strange, considering you should probably be focusing on getting something like Acid Splatter or something to sneak attack from range, using Invisibility and Grease to get your damage off.

This handbook should help you find options in your sources. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

[thethird]

and then you mentioned:

Fractional bab: which isn't from any of the sources.

Classes/feats/etc (what is etc): Only from core, when in your proposed entry on the OP you are using classes from outside core.

SO it is not clear (to me) what sources can you use.

Can you use PHB, DMG, MM, Completes (except champion), Unearthed arcana, for races, and only PHB and DMG for classes feats?

[Reprimand]

It's just a character concept not actual optimization. I was just trying to get an ideas to follow the concept not just character optimization ideas.

[Reprimand]

and then you mentioned:

Fractional bab: which isn't from any of the sources.

Classes/feats/etc (what is etc): Only from core, when in your proposed entry on the OP you are using classes from outside core.

SO it is not clear (to me) what sources can you use.

Can you use PHB, DMG, MM, Completes (except champion), Unearthed arcana, for races, and only PHB and DMG for classes feats?

The DM is drawing on additional sources for rules and clarity. We players are not doing so for our builds.

So it turns out I'm stupid and didn't know core wasn't the completes. so we are using the CORE+COMPLETE (excluding complete champion). The DM is using fractional BaB among other rules. Players are not allowed to draw from other books without permission. I have also corrected the OP.

What I looking for are ideas on spending on skills, skill tricks, Ideas for helping get the most out of divination as a non primary caster. Tricks for being a better thief such telling better bluffs, cons to pull, spell combos that help in making money (excluding wish spam via simulacrum)

[CombatOwl]

It's fractional BAB

You're at +15 because of where you split the classes. And that was kind of my point. You don't build a gish with lots of fractional BAB classes, unless you can somehow reliably cast Divine Power (Arcane Disciple (War), etc).


I would have +16 which is better than a cleric.

+15, and you're equal to a cleric, who will almost certainly actually fight with a full BAB because of Divine Power. Which is not the goal of a gish--a gish is supposed to lose as little BAB as possible while keeping spellcasting. If you can't beat a cleric in BAB and casting, play a cleric.


TWF would be hard to hit on the last 2 attacks but when applying bonuses such as being invisible I would still stand a good chance of hitting.

You could be invisible as a cleric with the trickery domain and very likely hit more often because you'd be able to focus your stats better (and would probably have a better feat selection). Which, again, isn't the point of a gish. You're supposed to do that spellcasting and fighting thing better than a cleric, otherwise what's the point?


How would I go about having Having no weaknesses without cross-classing ridiculously? I really also wanted to keep unseen seer.

US isn't a gish PrC. Basically if it's a PrC that isn't full BAB, it doesn't belong in a gish build. If the PrC doesn't at least give you +1 spellcasting on the first level, it also doesn't belong, unless the class features are just beyond amazing.

If you want to play a character that actually has no weaknesses, cleric 20 or druid 20. Druid if you want to melee more, cleric if you want to cast more. You can even be a better rogue than rogues with cleric spells. It's ridiculous. Any build that involves rogue levels has weaknesses.

Hell, you have complete divine open to you. A divine metamagic (persist) or DMM (quicken) cleric will literally do everything your rogue build does better. It would be better at skills (Cloistered Cleric/Knowledge Domain BS + Divine Insight + Luck and Trickery Domain), better at fighting (DMM (Persist) + Divine Power lets even the weakest Cloistered Cleric fight as well as a fighter), and better at casting (cast in armor, good spell list, etc).


I also didn't want to just Gish I also wanted to be able to rogue it up.

@combatowl I really wanted to play a rogueisque gish not just a combat/spell machine. I wanted to have no weaknesses not be good at just two things.

Impossible. Such a build is a weakness in its own right. Practically by definition it has split itself in too many directions to be good at doing anything--which in a game that's as focused on specialization as D&D, that's a massive, huge weakness. Even with a 30 point build, MAD is a profound weakness of such a character. You need a massive int, and a high dex, and a high str, and at least get some kind of bonus on Con. Even two 16s and two 14s means your charisma and wisdom are going to tank.

A character with an attack bonus that is "almost good enough" might as well not bother swinging a sword against level appropriate encounters.

[Dread_Head]

You're at +15 because of where you split the classes. And that was kind of my point. You don't build a gish with lots of fractional BAB classes, unless you can somehow reliably cast Divine Power (Arcane Disciple (War), etc).

That will actually be +16 with fractional BAB (3 from rogue, .5 from wizard, 7.5 from unseen seer and 5 from Abjurant Champion.

US isn't a gish PrC. Basically if it's a PrC that isn't full BAB, it doesn't belong in a gish build. If the PrC doesn't at least give you +1 spellcasting on the first level, it also doesn't belong, unless the class features are just beyond amazing.

There's also nothing inherently wrong with 3/4 bab classes in a Gish build, the standard Sorcadin goes Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist 8 which hits the same BAB this does although it does hit 9th level spells at 20th level, this build will have a lot more skill points though.

If you go Rogue 1 / Wizard 2 / SA Fighter 1 / Spellthief 1 at the start of your build rather than Rogue 4 / Wizard 1 then you'll hit 9th level spells by the end of your build, still have +16 BAB, +1d6 more SA and only lose out on a few skillpoints. You should almost definitely drop TWF though, it's gonna be eating up feats for very little benefit in a build like this.

You won't end up being that MAD as Int governs both casting and extra skill points. You can drop dex lower as you have spells like mage armour, alter self and shield to boost ac up and you can use strength to hit in combat. At range you're going to be using ranged touch spells to SA with so a lower dex won't matter anyway. Stats should probably look like Int>Str>Dex=Con>Wis>Cha in terms of your projected point buy, that Cha and Wis aren't doing anything for you, drop them down to 10 (or lower for cha) and use that to pump up your Int to 16 and Con to 14. Also consider swapping Str and Dex although ymmv.

Otherwise this seems like a decent build if you want some casting, some combat abilities and some skill monkeying.

@CombatOwl
It's quite possible to build a skill gish and this is a decent build for it. Also not everyone wants to play a DMM cleric as a solution to everything and it isn't necessarily the best answer for this build. Also you can't access the goodness of Abjurant Champion with divine magic and you'd end up being more MAD than this build. Need Wis for spells, Str to hit, Con for health, Int for skill points, Cha for turn undead leaving Dex as a dump stat which is one of the worst to dump.

[Kaje]

Don't listen to these guys (EDIT: 'Cept for Dread_Head). There's nothing wrong with a gish who has 15 BAB or less than 9th level spells. You're making a character, not trying to break the game. Duskblade and Psychic Warrior are both perfectly fine gish classes, Swordsage focusing on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind is a spell-less gish, and I've seen a really cool gish build that relies on Warblade initiating and Dragonmark SLAs. Not everything has to be super-optimized.