Rebuild the first! *help me!*

[Metahuman1]

Soooo, I've got a game were our characters have an up coming offer to take a rebuild on the table in the relatively near future. Most of the party is 4th level right now, though we might be about to break 5th in the next session.

One of the players characters, however, died, so he's getting his a bit earlier then the rest of us.

I'll get more info on the RP aspects he's aiming for, but, long story short, he's attempting to play some elf or half elf (not clear on which right at the moment but I'll get that info.), character form the Silmarillion.

He's looking to do a swift hunter archer build. Previously he'd been playing a greatsword fighter and was frustrated with not being able to do much when there was nothing to hit, which was a good bit of the time, though I know next session there's a VERY real risk of hitting a major battle.



So, help me help him not suck with this. I'm sorely tempted to advise him to take a dip into cloistered cleric for travel devotion and Knowledge devotion now, but if we get the fight I'm expecting next session, that would hinder him having Favored Enemy: Undead, and he's gonna need that to do skirmish damage.


I should note that there's another scout archer in the party, and I'm seriously worried by the time the rebuilds done there gonna have a really bad overlap. Before he got frustrated I was trying to just get him to make it to the rebuild and then I was gonna rebuild him as a Warblade, but that's out the window now. Oh, and both of them dislike magic classes.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If he's going to have a Cloistered Cleric dip for Travel Devotion, you may as well give him two Ranger levels early for Rapid Shot.

I'd recommend Wood Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf), which gets Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2, with an elvencraft composite longbow, all three portions masterwork, with three wand chambers, and make the bow portion a +1 weapon. Go Cloistered Cleric 1/ Scout 1/ Ranger 2/ Scout 2 or 3/ Ranger 14 or 13 in that order. Get the Elf domain to have Point Blank Shot, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Precise Shot at 1st, Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for his bow at 3rd, Rapid Shot at 4th, and Swift Hunter at 6th.

Item Familiar allows him to upgrade the bow himself, including putting magic weapon properties on the quarterstaff sections and even making it a magic staff with charges of spells. Being able to get the right magic weapon properties on a bow is extremely important for an archer to be able to deal optimal damage. Keep in mind that an item familiar is an intelligent item which means it's considered a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. He can even additional intelligent item abilities to it via normal item creation methods.

Edit: If flaws are available, give him Hidden Talent for Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) so he can use a Dorje (psionic wand) of that. He can also get a Wand of Camouflage (SC), which is a different bonus type so they'll stack. When he uses both of those he'll get a +20 to Hide checks for ten minutes, which counteracts the -20 penalty to hide for sniping if he wants to go that route, or it just makes him super sneaky. With a second flaw he can get Extra Turning or even Darkstalker (LoM).

[Metahuman1]

Ok, flaws are available, but the DM has opted to Ban Psionics. For right now I'll let that go since he's a newer DM and I don't want to overwhelm him too badly at this point in his career.

[Telonius]

For the background - the elf in question wouldn't happen to be Beleg Strongbow, would it? (I'm guessing it's not going to be a half-elf, since most of the Half-Elves in Silmarillion were famous for things other than archery or hunting).

If it is Beleg, I'd say that Item Familiar would be an excellent idea, but not for his bow. It would do a great job of simulating his sword Anglachel.

[Metahuman1]

I've sent the guy a message on facebook asking him to shoot a link to the characters wiki my way. I remember something about he eventually get's into a ruler ship position and is apparently a good combatant, and ends up committing Suicide and is one of a short list of Tolkien characters to do that.


Once he get's me that I expect to be able to tear more into his build.

In the man time I need to snag one of the other players and go "So, listen, you guys are gonna have a really bad over lap if we do this, can I maybe interest you in a different build? We an keep the theme of keep your distance, just, not through archery. That way you guys don't strictly over lap an inherently overshadow one another. "

[Telonius]

Ah, that's got Turin Turambar written all over it. Turin was actually a human, but if he's just wanting to play a Turin-inspired character, Elf should do fine. Though I am a little puzzled that he'd want to take that and go Archer with it - Turin was more famous for his sword than his bow.

[Metahuman1]

I dunno, I never bothered to read the Christopher Tolkine's stuff myself. J.R.R's is basically mandatory but his son's, not so much.

Before this I was hoping to just get him to muddle along with his fighter till the rest of the group got there rebuild, and then at that time I was gonna make him a Warblade, but now I'm having to work with this instead.

As it was it took a lot to convince him that no, TWF + Archery would not be a good way to do things. The cost alone would make it impossible for him to be good in a fight after a few levels.

[Zweisteine]

If his complaint is that he is useless out of combat, an archer isn't really the best build either, unless you play a rogue (or ranger), with the skills to use at all times.

Rogue or one of the similar classes is probably best (factotum! factotum! factotum!), but not optimal for an archer.

[Metahuman1]

I happen to agree, but he's got his heart set on this swift hunter build and he's convinced he can be useful cause the party's already got a rogue, an urban ranger/fighter and a scout who are useful with there skills.


Yes, I think there's a flaw in his logic, but he's not interested in hearing that. So, I've just gonna due the best I can to help him with the perimeters he's giving me to work with.


Since I know the rest of the party is gonna also get rebuilds in the near future one of the things I'm gonna do is try and persuade the Scout to go to a different theme then archery, possibly with a different class. That way they won't be doing almost exactly the same thing at the same time and almost exactly the same way or with one being strictly better at it then the other.

[Zweisteine]

Have this conversation:
"Remember all those times you were annoyed that you were useless because there was nothing for you to hit?"
"Yeah..."
"What will you do outside of combat as a skill-less archer?"

Or just just follow the guide (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=642.0).
This guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1143551) has a bit more about classes and such, but feels less organized/easy to read.

A few things I picked up on a quick read-over:
Zen Archery is really good if you want to be wisdom-based (which is good because clerics, and because high spot means you can see farther, and thus shoot farther).

When you can afford it (not for a good long while), get the Splitting enchantment on the bow. It's a +3 bonus equivalent, but it makes every attack you make into two (roll twice at sam bonus, deal damage for each hit). That makes Rapid Shot look like a sloth. If you're getting a +10 equivalent weapon, Force is good too. (as well as Seeking and Phasing of course, but those four together are a +8 bonus, and you need a +1 to get any of them, so your actual enhancement bonus will be only +2).

The Footbow is apparently an impressively good weapon, if you can fly. If you can't it's less good, because it takes a feat to learn to use, and you can't add strength to normal shots with it (Raptorans can use it for free, though).


Go read the guide yourself. Don't forget to read the section on special arrows; some of them are quite interesting.

[Metahuman1]

That's just it though, he knows ranger and scout have skill points and big class skill lists and he's been watching the rogue and the Scout and the Ranger in the party make skill checks and be useful when there's nothing to hit.

And in a slightly different party configuration, I'd say he's on to something.

As it stands, yeah, I'm gonna need to work with him and one of the other players. Cause otherwise, I'm afraid there both gonna get frustrated when either one constantly outdoes the other at the things they do, or there both doing it and having to compete with each other to be the useful one.

[Metahuman1]

Update:

Alright, I would have posted this a couple of days ago but I've been laid out with a sever stomach bug and been getting over that.

Anyway, the player finally sent me the dark wiki entry to the character he wants to use a swift hunter build to emulate. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/T%C3%BArin_Turambar


And the other player wouldn't budge off of using a swift hunter herself, but she is agreeing to building with different weapons/fighting style in mind then archery.

So, right now, here's what I'm thinking for both of them.

Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 3/Ranger 1.

Get's them favored enemy undead, knowledge devotion, and a domain for getting a necessary bonus feat, such as the elf domain for example.

For the second player, since the first guy wants to go archer to represent the above character, I'm thinking of building her to use travel devotion to generate her skirmish abilitys, and then set her up with reach and lots of AoO's to make her do a sort of lock down. Thoughts?

[Xerlith]

Okay. I wouldn't really bother with Swift Hunter, since it's got its big downside in being shut down by critters immune to precision damage and you imply there's a big chance they'll be around.

So:

Silverbrow Human (a net gain of TWO feats)

Bard3/Warblade17

Human: Dragonfire Inspiration
1st lvl feat: Draconic Heritage (Emerald Dragon)
3rd: Song of the Heart
6th: Song of the White Raven.

Notable spell: Inspirational Boost gives you a +1 bonus to Inspire Courage, translating to +1d6 sonic (Thanks, Emerald Dragon, for being my imagined predecessor) damage.
It means that beginning at 3rd level, this build deals an additional 3d6 sonic damage per hit. Then you add the Warblade to give you tactical options (pick stances/maneuvers that work without needing melee attacks).
Dipping a level or two in Fighter after the 5th will help in getting all the relevant archery feats.

Items: Badge of Valor. It'll bump the DFI for another +1d6.

If your friend doesn't like Bard in his builds, then

Harmonious Knight Paladin 1/Warblade 1/Paladin +3/Warblade +15 works, too. But it works badly.

Feats: Cross your fingers and pray your DM doesn't notice anything wrong.
Human: Dragonfire Inspiration
1st: Draconic Heritage (Emerald Dragon)
3th: Song of the White Raven
6th: Initiate of Milil
9th: Song of the Heart

So... A late bloomer. And doesn't have Inspiratonal Boost. Don't try it if you can go Bard.