Help me break a paladin..

[DarkKensai]

Hi all,
I am currently DMing my first campaign, and one of my friends is playing very arrogant, "holier than thou" paladin. We got together and decided that it would be fun to have events conspire to "break" him.

I don't just mean tricking him into committing an evil act, but actually break his spirit and faith.(I'm using the idea of what the Joker was doing to batman and Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight)

Does anyone have any good ideas?

This is being done WITH the Paladin players approval. It's not player punishment, it's about breaking a holy warrior, and seeing what comes crawling out of the wreckage.

[Flame of Anor]

I have a good idea!

Let the paladin know that he should be more of a team player, without being a spiteful jerk in the process.

[Manly Man]

I have a good idea!

Let the paladin know that he should be more of a team player, without being a spiteful jerk in the process.

This, pretty much. Going about it in a manner that is in any way, shape, or form similar to what you're asking will only spawn contempt, and more than likely, you'll end up losing a player. DMs who deliberately try to make a Paladin fall usually end up being the ones that everyone remember as "that butt-munch".

[BWR]

Um, guys? The op clearly states the player of the paladin and the DM together want this to happen. It's not punishing a player for playing a paladin, it's trying to build a fun story around the PC's faults.

As for ideas, the best thing would be to have the player write up a list of the most important aspects of the paladin.
I have my players who play divine types write down 3-4 core vows, the unbreakable kind, and about twice that many additions along the lines of "only in the most extreme cases will these go out the window". It helps cement the concept of the PC and whatever god or ethos they belong to.
Then attack these points. E.g. someone who believes in the absolute purity of children. Kids are never born evil, they are merely raised this way. So his job is to fight those who raise kids badly and do whatever he can to be a good influence on kids and make sure they are raised in loving, caring homes and to never harm them no matter the situation (non-lethal damage might be ok if he's a bit practical). Let him come across things like child soldiers. Put him in situations where he has to choose between hurting children or allowing others to be hurt by them. Children possessed by evil spirits that he can't exorcise is also fun (I had a PC in Rokugan who was very fond of children and had to kill a couple dozen kids ages 5-10 because every one of them was Lost - and that has stuck with him forever). Even have a kid who is genuinely evil. One who truly is a pscyhopathic little monster, not because of how it's raised or lack of love, but one who is just by nature evil.

To quote Al Pacino, pride is my favorite sin. Find out why the paladin is arrogant. Is it excessive pride in his status as paladin? A feeling that despite working for the betterment of all, he really is better than just about everyone else? Is it personal insecurity? Act confident and you will soon feel confident? Is it a feeling of 'my god is bigger than your god'?
Find the reason, then use this.

[Brookshw]

Encounter scenarios where groups out side of his belief exist in a "higher" state perhaps? Chaotic good communities with no need for law to make him question why LG is better than CG? LG groups (initially) that become corrupt? Moral challenges? A philosophical challenge by a demon or devil who points to the blood war and good needing to keep it going for the sake of the cosmos as evidence good cannot "win" without evil? Give him a devil assigned corrupter sent to "test" his faith who always offers a darker interpretation of events? (caveat, you need a reason the paladin doesn't kill it straight off, perhaps he's been challenged to redeem it? Or cannot kill it because the "test" is condoned by his church?). Hope some of these suggestions help.

[Killer Angel]

Um, guys? The op clearly states the player of the paladin and the DM together want this to happen.

While probaly true, the OP stated "We got together and decided that it would be fun to have events conspire to "break" him".
"We", could be intended as "the DM and the other players, without informing the pally's player".

Anyway, a psychopath killer, that puts the pally in front of numerous moral choices. Those choices shouldn't make the paladin fall, but should erode his "moral high ground", 'til the point he'll give up.

[JHShadon]

A philosophical challenge by a demon or devil who points to the blood war and good needing to keep it going for the sake of the cosmos as evidence good cannot "win" without evil? Give him a devil assigned corrupter sent to "test" his faith who always offers a darker interpretation of events? (caveat, you need a reason the paladin doesn't kill it straight off, perhaps he's been challenged to redeem it? Or cannot kill it because the "test" is condoned by his church?). Hope some of these suggestions help.

I have an idea for a reason why he couldn't be able to kill it straight away, the devil could be in a cave with plenty of dark places to hide and the ability to teleport, so the Paladin would have to be looking for the devil while listening and arguing back until either he finds the devil and smites it or the devil simply leaves while saying it's going to harm some innocents and that there's nothing the paladin can do about it.

[Fouredged Sword]

I love a good corrupt official he has to obey. Put someone in a position of power who is protected by the letter of the law, but is clearly evil. Put that person in a position that taking him on would WRECK the paladin's order.

Ether the paladin suffers the slow degradation of compromise in the face of a unrelenting reality or suffer the wrath of his own order who has already accepted the compromise with reality.

Villains surrender because they know that the prison is will accept bribes to let them go. Does the paladin kill a surrendered foe or turn them over to justice that won't happen? What is the opinion of the system of justice when he takes it into his own hands. He can't LIE about killing a foe who surrendered.

If he defies the system, does the system consider him a criminal? Does his order disavow him and cast him out to save themselves or do they support him, only to be taken down themselves?

Will his thirst for justice destroy everything he holds dear when confronted with a system of corruption?

[Xuldarinar]

Situations where no answer is satusfactory. Where the paladin must commit lesser evils to thwart greater ones. Working with devils to hold back demons, or worse (elder evils, far-realm entities, ect). Dealing with corrupt clurgy and honorable villians. Temptations, promises of increadible power that may be needed to stop great evils, but at great personal cost (ownership of one's soul). Malign celestials and 'benign' fiends. Individuals they have long believed to be good, even looked up to, falling or have long dealt in dark powers.

Introducing binders and using heterodox rules may prove of interest. A member of their order is seen tormenting and killing apparently innocent individuals, all spells and abilities of the paladin show these people to be good, but these individuals bind and maybe even worship certain vestiges (preferibly ones that were once strongly good aligned). A knight of the sacred seal could be interesting, playing a role or even be a path he may 'fall' to.

[The Glyphstone]

Have a Half-Ogre Fighter/Barbarian grapple and pin him, then slam him down over their knee (mechanical bonus if in PF and using the Neckbreaker feat).:smallbiggrin:

[lytokk]

I don't know how much this could help, but once I played a paladin, and the DM pulled a move to break my pally's spirit, behind the scenes when I took over the game for a few months so he could play. Still some bitterness there about that whole game buut, not the point of this.

Anyway, he accomplished this by putting me as the head of my home country's army, fighting the invading forces of another country's army, and having us lose battle after battle. As he described it, all I was doing was trying to slow the other army down and losing my troops constantly. Just throwing that out there if it helps.

[Maginomicon]

@OP

If by "we" you mean everyone but the paladin's player, stop. Seriously, stop. Tell the paladin's player to stop being an ass in-game. "I'm just playing my character" is not an excuse. Let's put it this way: If in a Vampire game you were to play not just an "aberrant monster" (that game's equivalent of Chaotic Evil), but one whose backstory/feeding-habit is that he's a youth counselor that preys on prepubescent children (yes, this is a thing), you'd probably be kicked out of the game for being an ass without uttering a single syllable in-character. Having a backstory where you're a "lawful good prick" is every bit as despicable.

If by "we" you mean you and the paladin's player, then go for it. I would however strongly suggest you read the Real Alignments Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283341) (particularly, the section on Codes of Conduct).

[Red Fel]

Situations where no answer is satusfactory. Where the paladin must commit lesser evils to thwart greater ones. Working with devils to hold back demons, or worse (elder evils, far-realm entities, ect). Dealing with corrupt clurgy and honorable villians. Temptations, promises of increadible power that may be needed to stop great evils, but at great personal cost (ownership of one's soul). Malign celestials and 'benign' fiends. Individuals they have long believed to be good, even looked up to, falling or have long dealt in dark powers.

This. Few things can break a "[Deity] is on my side" zealot faster than being presented with a lose-lose situation. Think of the tragic history of the punching bag of the Marvel Universe, Spider-Man. Remember that one time that his nemesis-of-the-week decided to toss a school bus and his girlfriend off a bridge, and he had to choose who to save? "No problem," said the Spider, "I'm a superhero! I'll save them both!"

Didn't work out so well, did it? Cue Heroic BSOD (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicBSOD).

Basically, there are two ways to break a character down - suddenly or over time. For the more dramatic, do what I just suggested - confront him with an immediate lose-lose situation, where any action he takes will only make things worse, but inaction won't make things any better. (Disclaimer: Do not do this without the express consent of the player. Guaranteed lose situations are a capital-d Jerk move, and never a good thing unless the player specifically wants that for his character.)

The more insidious, if less dramatic method, is to break them down over time. As Xuldarinar suggested above, put him in positions forcing him to compromise on his principles. Not to break his core tenets, but to bend them. Slide a little, slide a little. Then, in a key confrontation, slam him with the list of his iniquities.

"Is this who they send to defeat me? A tarnished, gray knight? One who abides murderers? Abets theft? Endorses oath-breaking? Consorts with demons? You are the great champion of Good they sent to stop me? Don't make me laugh. With your pedigree, I should be the one trying to stop your evil plans!"

All that said, I will echo what has been said repeatedly: DO NOT DO THIS without the EXPRESS consent of the Paladin's player. I don't care if the entire rest of the table thinks it's a great idea. I don't care if the Paladin's player is a horrible person who arrives late, breaks wind at the table, never pays for pizza, keyed your car and ran over your dog. There are Things One Does Not Do.

Of course, if he agreed to it, lay on, Macduff, and damned be him that first cries, “Hold, enough!”

[Telonius]

A little bit of icing on the cake would be for an organization the Paladin is completely opposed to (say, the local Thieves' Guild) actually being able to take the moral high ground (compared to his own organization's orders) on some issue.

Example: The prince is known to be an associate of the Thieves' Guild. He has been arrested by a neighboring kingdom after accidentally trespassing during a hunting trip. The Paladin is dispatched to negotiate for his release, with strict orders not to directly intervene. His superior within the Paladins considers it just desserts, and will not be too sad if the neighboring kingdom takes care of the problem. The negotiations fall through, and it's clear that the neighboring kingdom is going to torture and kill the prince. The prince begs the Paladin for aid.

That night, the Thieves' Guild mount a daring rescue, successfully breaking the prince out of jail and returning him home safe, without killing anyone. There's a big celebration thanking the unnamed heroes who rescued him. (Apparently they were so modest that they refused public recognition). The word gets around that whoever it was, succeeded where the Paladins failed.

[illyahr]

I successfully did this to a Player I had once. They fought a small demonic cabal and wiped out a handful of low-end demons. One demon decided to surrender. She claimed she didn't care so much for warfare or warping others, she just wanted to have fun and enjoy herself on the material plane (she was a succubus).

She even proposed a blood bargain that she would not use any of her powers unless the Paladin told her to. He agreed, but with the change that she was allowed to prevent fatal harm from befalling herself and could use her power to protect children if necessary.

After a month of travel and several "random" encounters with cultists and such, it had gotten to the point where he was "ok" with assigning her roles in combat that took better use of her abilities.

It didn't take long before he was ordering offensive strikes...with demonic power.

Player wanted to try a Blackguard eventually anyway. :smalltongue:

Not gonna lie, I totally took this idea from the book For Love of Evil by Piers Anthony. :smallbiggrin:

[DarkKensai]

That's a lot of good suggestions guys! Thanks, I'll see what I can do with them.
(And yes, this is completely with the players permission. It's kind of a test, we want to see what his character would do, and what the effects of his fall would be on the rest of the party.)

[The Glyphstone]

That's a lot of good suggestions guys! Thanks, I'll see what I can do with them.
(And yes, this is completely with the players permission. It's kind of a test, we want to see what his character would do, and what the effects of his fall would be on the rest of the party.)

And when the party lies in ashes, will he have your permission to die?

[Fouredged Sword]

He shouldn't fall. He should maintain the blessing of his god so long as he cleaves to the word of the paladin's oath. He should go all the way until his world is in ashes only to look up and wonder if this is what his god wanted all along.

[Red Fel]

He shouldn't fall. He should maintain the blessing of his god so long as he cleaves to the word of the paladin's oath. He should go all the way until his world is in ashes only to look up and wonder if this is what his god wanted all along.

This.

If your goal is to break him emotionally, but not rob him of his powers, attack his faith. Get him to the point where he actually asks, and try for this exact quote, "What kind of just and merciful god would allow this?"

Basically, warp goodness. Have the "bad guys" (a la Thieves' Guild, above) accomplish great things, have the villains succeed. Have the Paladin's own order, his Church, his Clergy, and everyone he looks to as a shining example, be ineffectual at best, or cold and callous at worst. Turn everything he loves upside down. But let him keep his powers. If he loses them, he could rationalize it. "Clearly, my god wasn't as noble as I thought; it's time to find a better definition of Goodness." But if he keeps his powers, that's no escape. Clearly, in failing, he's doing something right. Give him the impression that his patron wants him to fail.

And then, just for kicks, play the scene where he's standing in the rain wailing into the heavens, screaming with impotent frustration and despair. It's one of my favorites.

[Mando Knight]

Another thing to do would be to juxtapose his Miko with a Hinjo or an O-Chul.

[Zweisteine]

Whatever you do, remember this basic fact:

You can only break a PC as much as the player is willing to be broken. If the Paladin's player isn't really deep in the roleplaying (and those who take "stick up the butt" as a class feature rarely do), you will only succeed in annoying the player, or making him mad to you. To break a character's will, the player must be willing.

[DarkKensai]

Whatever you do, remember this basic fact:

You can only break a PC as much as the player is willing to be broken. If the Paladin's player isn't really deep in the roleplaying (and those who take "stick up the butt" as a class feature rarely do), you will only succeed in annoying the player, or making him mad to you. To break a character's will, the player must be willing.

The player is willing to be broken, and he is trying for roleplaying depth, but he is still pretty new. (in fact, my entire group, including myself, is pretty new) Really, he only made his paladin like that for the purpose of getting broken. Before we came up with this idea he had a different, less stereotypical character ready.

[Xuldarinar]

In what way does he wish to break/fall?

In terms of prestige classes: Blackguard, Gray Guard, Corrupt Avenger, or Knight of the Sacred Seal?

[DarkKensai]

In what way does he wish to break/fall?

In terms of prestige classes: Blackguard, Gray Guard, Corrupt Avenger, or Knight of the Sacred Seal?

honestly, I'm not sure. It's kind of a character exploration thing, wanting to find out how the character would act after the fact. I'll be asking him next time I see him though if he has a direction he'd like to move towards.

[Socratov]

Just to be sure, I assume he is in on the plan. If he is not, sit down with him and have a talk. Seriously, if you don't you will probably lose a player and crush his fun.

So, to throw my dime in: have him meet a grey guard. The whole point of being a paladin is faith. Faith in your own abilities, faith in what the gods have planned for you, faith in being there to combat evil and making the world a better better place, answering only to higher authorities. The ultimate faith for a paladin is in being Right[tm]. It is the flip-side of the stick-up-the-arse class feature: yes you are as flexible as an immovable rod, but you know you are Right[tm] in doing so. So, to really break a paladin is to take this bedrock away. Shake his world up and sweep his feet rom under him by showing him that his version of Right[tm] is not the only version out there. This is where the greyguard comes in. the greyguard is a fallen paladin. Not because of committing an evil act, but by losing his faith and more importantly, by losing his specific brand of Right[tm]. The result: a reality check the size of a country with the force of big boy. Because when a Paladin realizes he is not in the Right[tm], then what is he? What is his purpose? He realizes he is nothing more then a self-righteous murderer. Presto! One thoroughly broken paladin/human (or whatever it is) being. This is where you create the Dark Knight: this is where you create Batman as portrayed by Christopher Nolan.

Remember the spying technique Batman uses by tapping all the mobile phones in Gotham? A true Paladin would never do that. A grey guard would, and then atone for his sins. Why? Because he is not the Paladin the world/gods deserve, he is the Paladin the gods/world needs. He does what needs to be done, even if it's morally questionable.

===========

You will notice that the paladin player does not remain broken. He even gets character development out of the deal and a part of the story all to himself. So you actually may promote his behaviour. However, you will teach him that he needs to sacrifice something in order to get it. He will also need to learn to roleplay (as far as he hasn't already) and to think before he acts.

[Captnq]

Bad Idea. Really Bad Idea.

but, if you want to go ahead. It's simple.

Hopelessness.

That's how you break him. You need an NPC who follows him around undoing everything he's done. He helps a village? You murder that village. You Save the princess? The NPC arranges for the princess to be sold into slavery.

The PC helps someone cross the street? You Mind Seed the little old lady into becoming a cannibal. He comes to the Head of his church for help? You Mind Rape the head of the church into becoming a pedophile.

Everything the player does, you poison it. You twist it. You undo every victory. You pervert every outcome. You Mangle everyone he loves, cared about, is related to, walked past on the street. You either kill them if they won't break, or you spare them if they will but curse his name.

Destroy his reputation. Polymorph into him and do unsavory things. Not horrible things. Just unlikable things. Teleport around a whole lot. Never actually confront the PC. Never give him a target. Never let him know who or why. Never give him answers, only pain. Unrelenting pain and loss and the knowledge that the world would be a better place if he just stopped doing anything, because everything he touches will suffer and nothing good will ever come of anything he does.

17th level spellcaster/psionist should do the trick.

[Metahuman1]

Addendum: If you break him, fix him afterwords.

One of the reasons story's like Knightfall and Death of Superman and the Gwen Stacy moment in Spider-mans line are so frigging powerful is that eventually they heal, recover, return to the good fight.

Break him, humble him, make him fall. Make him have epiphanies about himself, up to and including an alignment change. And have him take a rebuild quest, returning to that good fight better then ever as a Crusader.

[Crake]

I bring this up in pretty much every thread about corruption and falling, but in my experience, love is the best form of corruption. Using your imagination, you can have anything from the object of his infatuation being evil, and in the process of him trying to redeem her, she instead corrupts him, or you could have her be pure, but someone murders her, and it drives him over the edge. Those are two classic examples, but with a bit of creativity, I'm sure you can come up with something interesting.

[Metahuman1]

Ya know, there's room for something interesting with that love idea.

He falls in love, she turns out to be a succubus trying to make him fall. She's partially successful, and he does fall. But there still in love, he's still good, and now, so is she.

Rebuild with levels in a class that doesn't require lawful.

[Totema]

Why is everyone obsessed with breaking paladins?

It's much better form to teach him to be more considerate and benevolent. Alternatively you can rule that being sanctimonious is not good behavior and will violate his alignment restriction.

[DarkKensai]

Why is everyone obsessed with breaking paladins?

It's much better form to teach him to be more considerate and benevolent. Alternatively you can rule that being sanctimonious is not good behavior and will violate his alignment restriction.

It's not punishment for the player, it's part of his (agreed with) character progression. Part of the story is about breaking this holy warrior and seeing what crawls out of the wreckage.

[Totema]

It's not punishment for the player, it's part of his (agreed with) character progression. Part of the story is about breaking this holy warrior and seeing what crawls out of the wreckage.

Oh, I interpreted that as the other players asking you to bring him down. :smallredface:

[Dr. Azkur]

I have the answer for you:

Show him the object of his faith is not as strong as he thinks and faith itself is only a construct. This breaks a man.

Obviously you're gonna have to prove it down hard. When my Cleric fell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16753963&postcount=8) it was very evident.

Showing that no matter how hard he fights and believes he is going to lose and evil will prevail is not enough, you have to show him that standing up to that evil is actually going to be worse for everyone.

[Captnq]

Why is everyone obsessed with breaking paladins?

It's much better form to teach him to be more considerate and benevolent. Alternatively you can rule that being sanctimonious is not good behavior and will violate his alignment restriction.

I'm not.

I think it is a VERY BAD IDEA. It is NOT FUN. Extremely. I know it SOUNDS like fun, but it isn't. It's on my list of things not to do as a DM:

1. No Disease Plots. - Any plot that involves contagious transformation/death/damnation/suffering will suck. Why? They always suck. The players might pretend they are having fun, but chances are they are being polite. ESPECIALLY if the players get infected.

2. Don't break the PCs - This is dungeons and dragons, not the world of darkness. Know your genre. Unrelenting nastiness is good for a one shot, but not for a campaign.

3. Don't Have NPC stars - The players didn't come here to to play second fiddle. Any plot that involves bringing back the ultra powerful dude to save the day sucks. The Desert of Desolation series was awesome, right up until you release Martek who flies off to save the day. Way to make the PCs feel worthless.

4. Don't railroad - All the best DMs try to let the players run free.

5. No Destany/Fate - This also includes chosen ones and prophecies. Unless you are REALLY good, it's damn hard to pull this off without railroading the players. Also, you can only have one chosen one. So what are the other players? The side kicks. Not fun.

6. Don't be fair - A good DM isn't fair, he's impartial. Sometimes you just want to punish the PCs for doing "the wrong thing". If the players murder all the children and get away with it, they get away with it. The moment you feel you have to create a "karmic balance" is the moment you stop being a Dm and start being a conductor on your own personal rail service.

[Dr. Azkur]

I'm not.

I think it is a VERY BAD IDEA. It is NOT FUN. Extremely. I know it SOUNDS like fun, but it isn't. It's on my list of things not to do as a DM:

1. No Disease Plots. - Any plot that involves contagious transformation/death/damnation/suffering will suck. Why? They always suck. The players might pretend they are having fun, but chances are they are being polite. ESPECIALLY if the players get infected.

2. Don't break the PCs - This is dungeons and dragons, not the world of darkness. Know your genre. Unrelenting nastiness is good for a one shot, but not for a campaign.

3. Don't Have NPC stars - The players didn't come here to to play second fiddle. Any plot that involves bringing back the ultra powerful dude to save the day sucks. The Desert of Desolation series was awesome, right up until you release Martek who flies off to save the day. Way to make the PCs feel worthless.

4. Don't railroad - All the best DMs try to let the players run free.

5. No Destany/Fate - This also includes chosen ones and prophecies. Unless you are REALLY good, it's damn hard to pull this off without railroading the players. Also, you can only have one chosen one. So what are the other players? The side kicks. Not fun.

6. Don't be fair - A good DM isn't fair, he's impartial. Sometimes you just want to punish the PCs for doing "the wrong thing". If the players murder all the children and get away with it, they get away with it. The moment you feel you have to create a "karmic balance" is the moment you stop being a Dm and start being a conductor on your own personal rail service.

I am going to assume this a heavy case of YMMV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Edit: In fact I will proceed to reply with actual content of why I believe what you said should stay absolutely personal in case it wasn't.

1) 'They suck because they always suck'. That's what you just said. Yeah... No. Ever watched a Zombie Apocalypse movie? I would agree to do the DM's laundry if he promised to run a campaign based on the genre (And I knew he could pull it off), why? Because I enjoy the thrill they propose, and so do a LOT of people.
Also the first chapter in my current campaign was set around a lycanthropy outburst and it was pretty fun.

Sidenote: No longer opinion but advice, don't be polite if you're not enjoying a campaign, instead say so politely. It's a game after all.

2) D&D no longer has any set genre, as you claim. At the time of its birth, obviously! Back in 2e, totally alive! Today? Today we get this (http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying-Supplement/dp/0786926503/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1389751928&sr=1-1&keywords=book+of+vile+darkness) and this (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Supplement/dp/0786936991), just like we get Stormwrack when we feel like being pirates and Eberron when we feel like questioning the meaning of D&D.

3) I agree that your having your ultimate goal be getting someone else to shine is not fun. But actually NPC stars serve their purpose, I have used them a couple of times (specially with new players) because of a single reason: They show the players early on what they can become, and hook them into becoming the heroes they admire.

4) That is a style of DMing. If DM and players are having a problem over style, then they should talk it out.

5) Having a single star is probably uncool, although it's still relative, I would mind the story single out a player because not feeling special is something of an issue to me, but who knows, some people might not care so much, as long as they still get cool things maybe? Also sometimes being the hero is a burden.

But if you have absolute control over the universe... there's something going on if you single out just one of your players. Come on, you can make all of them descendants of the last heroes!

Also anyone who wants to pull off a prophecy can always use the "Oh! Unexpected interpretation!" based on what's going on, after all prophecies are not about making clear how everything is going to end.

6) Just make sure to handle their alignments and consequences correctly.

[Cirrylius]

Pull a Shojo/Palpatine. Have it revealed that the head of his order was working against the system in their own home city. While none of the actions undertaken individually are evil, the overall effect is working against the status quo. The kingdom declares the order defunct, and holds all paladins accountable; IOW, they can't fight a legitimate authority without Falling... and the only way to redeem the order is to survive. Make 'em run, make 'em hide, make every breath they take an affront to lawful society, and then make it clear that the only way they can survive is with the assistance of the dark underbelly of society they've been fighting for so long.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Realistically, you have to tailor these sorts of things like a good suit. You have to take careful measure of the person you're fitting it to and ask a few questions of that person directly to make sure you get the right materials and cut them to the right sizes and shapes.

I'd be happy to give you a rough cut if you can give us as detailed a description of the character as you'd be comfortable typing and a few examples of how he's behaved thus far.

What god does he follow, if any?

What is that god's and/or the paladin's moral and ethical outlook and how do they mix if there is a god?

How does he feel about the various common races?

How does he feel about mercy/ taking prisoners?

Etc.

The more we know the better we can answer your question.

[DarkKensai]

Thanks everyone.

As for what his specifics are in his attitude, I honestly don't know yet. We have only just started.
I know that he is a Paladin of Heironeous. His character is young (17 or 18 I think) He has gotten along well with humans, elves (elfs?) and gnomes so far, but those are the only friendly races he has met.

He has been quick to jump into combat and ask questions later, but thus far his only combat has been against undead, so I'm not sure if that is truly indicative.

[FabulousFizban]

Anyway, a psychopath killer, that puts the pally in front of numerous moral choices. Those choices shouldn't make the paladin fall, but should erode his "moral high ground", 'til the point he'll give up.

my party ended up evolving that way naturally. I finally had to allow the paladin to be LN to avoid party conflict.

[Neknoh]

So he's a young, optimistic, pious character who enjoys helping.

What if the races that he gets along with? What if the humans, the elves and the gnomes begin hating him? What if he comes across a new group that flat out hates paladins? That wants nothing to do with them? Even if he tries to help.

"We don't WANT your help!" a group of vagabonds or refugees who won't take the helping hand because holy men took everything they had? It doesn't have to be him that has done something wrong, it could even be an anti-paladin or similar. Now you have a campaign or at least a few chapters, with warriors burning villages and flaunting the holy symbols of the church. People in the region hate the paladin for everything he's never done, for trying to help, for simply being who he is.

They face off against patrols of enemies, your paladin not taking the "We're totally not evil." at even a sliver of face value when he sees the enemy patrols doing normal "In the medieval field" stuff such as plundering, burning and killing.

Eventually (or as the big reveal if they never think to ask), it turns out that, actually, it was the church, it was the paladin's own church and they were rooting out heretics, a daemonic cult that's seeped through an entire nation.

So we have a 17-yo paladin who believes in all things good and righteous in this world, who helps people, who upholds everyone to his own standard and is pretty much a stick in the mud.

Now he is hated and shunned, people spit on him, some villagers could even rush him going "You ruined everything!" and it takes some work to figure out why, and when he learns of the reason, he goes after the reason, he tries to help, even if people become outright hostile when the suggestion comes up.

"He is NOT touching my child! MURDERER! MURDERER!"
"You took everything from us!"
"Take him with you and never come back!"

Basically face every piece of him trying to do good with nothing but hate.

And after all that, he goes into slaughter-mode, killing people he thinks is working agains the fate, and eventually killing people he thinks have fallen.

Until, when faced with the final enemy commander, when he learns of what has truly transpired.

He finds out the truth.

It is not them that have fallen.

It is him.

[DarkKensai]

So he's a young, optimistic, pious character who enjoys helping.

What if the races that he gets along with? What if the humans, the elves and the gnomes begin hating him? What if he comes across a new group that flat out hates paladins? That wants nothing to do with them? Even if he tries to help.

"We don't WANT your help!" a group of vagabonds or refugees who won't take the helping hand because holy men took everything they had? It doesn't have to be him that has done something wrong, it could even be an anti-paladin or similar. Now you have a campaign or at least a few chapters, with warriors burning villages and flaunting the holy symbols of the church. People in the region hate the paladin for everything he's never done, for trying to help, for simply being who he is.

They face off against patrols of enemies, your paladin not taking the "We're totally not evil." at even a sliver of face value when he sees the enemy patrols doing normal "In the medieval field" stuff such as plundering, burning and killing.

Eventually (or as the big reveal if they never think to ask), it turns out that, actually, it was the church, it was the paladin's own church and they were rooting out heretics, a daemonic cult that's seeped through an entire nation.

So we have a 17-yo paladin who believes in all things good and righteous in this world, who helps people, who upholds everyone to his own standard and is pretty much a stick in the mud.

Now he is hated and shunned, people spit on him, some villagers could even rush him going "You ruined everything!" and it takes some work to figure out why, and when he learns of the reason, he goes after the reason, he tries to help, even if people become outright hostile when the suggestion comes up.

"He is NOT touching my child! MURDERER! MURDERER!"
"You took everything from us!"
"Take him with you and never come back!"

Basically face every piece of him trying to do good with nothing but hate.

And after all that, he goes into slaughter-mode, killing people he thinks is working agains the fate, and eventually killing people he thinks have fallen.

Until, when faced with the final enemy commander, when he learns of what has truly transpired.

He finds out the truth.

It is not them that have fallen.

It is him.

I like that. I'm gonna try to work that in as I can.

[ReaderAt2046]

So he's a young, optimistic, pious character who enjoys helping.

What if the races that he gets along with? What if the humans, the elves and the gnomes begin hating him? What if he comes across a new group that flat out hates paladins? That wants nothing to do with them? Even if he tries to help.

"We don't WANT your help!" a group of vagabonds or refugees who won't take the helping hand because holy men took everything they had? It doesn't have to be him that has done something wrong, it could even be an anti-paladin or similar. Now you have a campaign or at least a few chapters, with warriors burning villages and flaunting the holy symbols of the church. People in the region hate the paladin for everything he's never done, for trying to help, for simply being who he is.

They face off against patrols of enemies, your paladin not taking the "We're totally not evil." at even a sliver of face value when he sees the enemy patrols doing normal "In the medieval field" stuff such as plundering, burning and killing.

Eventually (or as the big reveal if they never think to ask), it turns out that, actually, it was the church, it was the paladin's own church and they were rooting out heretics, a daemonic cult that's seeped through an entire nation.

So we have a 17-yo paladin who believes in all things good and righteous in this world, who helps people, who upholds everyone to his own standard and is pretty much a stick in the mud.

Now he is hated and shunned, people spit on him, some villagers could even rush him going "You ruined everything!" and it takes some work to figure out why, and when he learns of the reason, he goes after the reason, he tries to help, even if people become outright hostile when the suggestion comes up.

"He is NOT touching my child! MURDERER! MURDERER!"
"You took everything from us!"
"Take him with you and never come back!"

Basically face every piece of him trying to do good with nothing but hate.

And after all that, he goes into slaughter-mode, killing people he thinks is working agains the fate, and eventually killing people he thinks have fallen.

Until, when faced with the final enemy commander, when he learns of what has truly transpired.

He finds out the truth.

It is not them that have fallen.

It is him.

What you're talking about sounds like this one episode in Avatar: The Last Airbender. Zuko has been living in this Earth Kingdom village in disguise, and a gang of military bullies start stealing from and generally tormenting the village. Zuko challenges the bullies, but their leader is a fairly skilled Earthbender and Zuko is forced to reveal his own Firebending powers. The instant he does that, everyone turns against him. Despite the fact that he'd just rescued her son, the mother immediately treats him like a child rapist.

Do that to the paladin. Have there be people in trouble, have him rescue them (using his paladin powers in the process), and have them hate him. They mock him and spit at him, despite the fact that he just save their lives.

[pwykersotz]

This is a gentler version, but I am running an NPC who my player (1 player game) is taking along who is a fallen paladin.

Basically, he was in a situation where his order had captured a great evil villain and was going to lock him away. This paladin had spent a long time hunting him though, and while he didn't know how, knew that there was an almost certain chance he would escape.

So he killed him. In cold blood.

Naturally, he fell, but atonement spells wouldn't work, because he is not repentant for what he did. He feels he was justified, knowing that he saved the lives of perhaps hundreds of innocents. He is, in all other ways though, a model paladin and example of good.

He now quests to restore his powers, wanting nothing more than the approval of his god once again. He knows what he did was against the code and was wrong, but he doesn't believe it in his heart. I'm running this one organically though. Maybe he'll discover that he was wrong, maybe he'll fall even further as he has to make even more sacrifices until he doesn't see the difference between good and evil anymore.

It's more a story of redemption than falling, but it seemed slightly relevant.

[Dr. Azkur]

This is a gentler version, but I am running an NPC who my player (1 player game) is taking along who is a fallen paladin.

Basically, he was in a situation where his order had captured a great evil villain and was going to lock him away. This paladin had spent a long time hunting him though, and while he didn't know how, knew that there was an almost certain chance he would escape.

So he killed him. In cold blood.

Naturally, he fell, but atonement spells wouldn't work, because he is not repentant for what he did. He feels he was justified, knowing that he saved the lives of perhaps hundreds of innocents. He is, in all other ways though, a model paladin and example of good.

He now quests to restore his powers, wanting nothing more than the approval of his god once again. He knows what he did was against the code and was wrong, but he doesn't believe it in his heart. I'm running this one organically though. Maybe he'll discover that he was wrong, maybe he'll fall even further as he has to make even more sacrifices until he doesn't see the difference between good and evil anymore.

It's more a story of redemption than falling, but it seemed slightly relevant.

This is why I don't play paladins.
Pretty cool though.