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Tormsskull
2007-01-22, 12:43 PM
So, I got the x-pac for WoW, and all I can say is WOW! I started up a blood elf warlock right off the bat, and I love their starting area. It is pleasing on the eye for most parts, and the Dead Scar was a really cool idea I think. I'm looking forward to questing farther in there, but I am kind of not looking forward to having to leave the area :smallfrown:. Once I get out of the new area it will be back to all of the quests I already know.

I haven't had a chance to get into the Dark Portal (its level 58+ and my highest is 55 right now), but I saw it on my brother's character and it looks pretty cool.

So, anyone else get this? What do you like/dislike about it?

Sul'us
2007-01-22, 12:55 PM
I ended up getting two collector's edition -- one for each account. As I don't have character high enough, I wasn't able to see the Outlands besides glimpses of when my mom or dad played.

Instead, I started a blood elf rogue. Just dinged 17 last night, and am finishing up the Ghostlands. So far, it is the funnest starting zone I have played.

My dad also started a dreanei shaman, and their starting place looks awesome. I only got to play it a bit in the beta, and I liked it.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-22, 01:12 PM
Apart from the lag which a week from the opening seems to be clearing up I love Burning Crusade. Draenei are now my favourite race by far. Outland has been amazing and so far I have only seen the first area. The new items from quests have been great seeing as before then all my gear was level 50ish blues and one level 49 epic.

Joran
2007-01-22, 01:12 PM
We had a Shadowfang Keep run yesterday.

Our group makeup:

4 Blood Elf Paladins
1 Blood Elf Rogue (me)

So far, it's pretty fun, but I'm mostly going through the old content, but with a new race. I will only truly know if it's a success once I step into Outlands. I was frustrated with the end-game, and hopefully the five-mans will be fun.

Then again, I'm a warrior, so perhaps not ;)

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-22, 01:34 PM
Am I the only one who didnt like the Blood Elves? I'm sorry, but I just can't take them seriously, especially the male ones. The starting area chat was like the illigimate child of Barrens and Goldshire, and was overly crouded. (Although, that last point is pretty much void by now.) But maybe I'm just biased against Horde.
Draenei, on the other hand, their starting area was awesome, and didnt feel like "Just Another Starting Area". The Exodar is beautiful (though easy to get lost in...), Gift of the Naaru is helpful, and I like their mindset.

Sul'us
2007-01-22, 01:42 PM
Whats wrong with the male Blood Elves?

I thought they were great; I hate the buffness of all the other male's. Its a nice change to have one lissome, though with slight muscles. Exactly how I like my characters.

The only problem is their faces... Kind of ugly.

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-22, 01:54 PM
Perhaps I'm just tired of jumpy-twirly elves, even if they are magic-addicts. And while the non-buffed males are a refreshing break, it's the way they walk, the way they stand (yes, even that), and they way they twirl when they jump... trivial things, I guess, but its enough to change my personal opinion of them.

Tormsskull
2007-01-22, 01:57 PM
Am I the only one who didnt like the Blood Elves? I'm sorry, but I just can't take them seriously, especially the male ones. The starting area chat was like the illigimate child of Barrens and Goldshire, and was overly crouded. (Although, that last point is pretty much void by now.) But maybe I'm just biased against Horde.
Draenei, on the other hand, their starting area was awesome, and didnt feel like "Just Another Starting Area". The Exodar is beautiful (though easy to get lost in...), Gift of the Naaru is helpful, and I like their mindset.

I actually really like the blood elves. I picked a male because I guessed there would be a huge % of females, and I like to be different :smalltongue:. I was concerned that the Horde would get a bunch of immature kids now that we have a sexified "pretty" race available to be played. So far it hasn't been too bad, so I can't complain yet.

Also, I didn't think Eversong felt like "Just Another Starting Area" at all, in fact I thought it was really well put together. The Draenei also look cool, though I have only met them in BGs so far, and that was composed of me throwing curses and running a la lock battle tactics.

Anyhow, overall I think Blizzard did a nice job on blood elves.

EDIT:
V
Yeah, I agree with that. Reading both of the new races racials I was thinking they were better than the others, but maybe that's just because they are new. I know as a warlock it doesn't help me too much because I try to stay 30 yards away from my enemies :P

Poison_Fish
2007-01-22, 02:39 PM
I will say (And yes, I'm pro-horde) that even I think the blood elf racials are a bit to much. 8 yard radius 2 second silence is a very scary thing. Especially if it's on a rogue/paladin, since their goal is to keep within range of you.

Joran
2007-01-22, 03:36 PM
8 yard radius 2 second silence is a very scary thing.

Not really, as a player of 2 Taurens, I would contend that warstomp is a better PvP racial. Stun > silence.

What is scary is arcane torrent giving back energy to rogues. 30 energy is a big deal and allows combos that normally can't be done. However, that also means I have to spend a minute and a half setting up the combo =P

Reinforcements
2007-01-22, 04:13 PM
I like the blood elves a lot, but I'm playing a female because of the males' BIZZARE posture. It bugs me. I'm also playing a female draenei, just because they look better.

The new blood elf and draenei zones, though. Wow. Amazing cities aside, the new areas are so well-designed and filled with things to do. Seriously, my draenei shaman is level 17 and still has a dozen quests to do on Bloodmyst Isle. I haven't gotten as far with my blood elf mage, but Ghostwood seems cool enough. It's a shame I won't be seeing Outland for awhile, though.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-22, 04:31 PM
I was actually a bit disappointed by Draenei cities. They don't look very impressive to me because they are just a bunch of wreckage. Also Exodar is more deserted than Darnassus. Haven't got far enough to see Blood Elf other than the first two starting towns, which were still very impressive.

Tormsskull
2007-01-22, 04:34 PM
I was actually a bit disappointed by Draenei cities. They don't look very impressive to me because they are just a bunch of wreckage. Also Exodar is more deserted than Darnassus. Haven't got far enough to see Blood Elf other than the first two starting towns, which were still very impressive.

Silvermoon (BE city) has an interesting layout and is pleasing on the eye. Only thing annoying about it (and sometimes you don't even notice) every few seconds you hear what I can only guess is supposed to be a bird of some kind chirping. Its faint, it sounds so much like a squeaky recliner that I constantly check my La-Z-Boy when I hear it. Even though I KNOW it is the game, I forget everytime because it sounds so identical to it.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-22, 04:41 PM
Is it easily accessible? Like how Undercity has the zeppelin to Orgrimmar.

Athenodorus
2007-01-22, 04:45 PM
I gave up WoW to spend time on homework, and am beginning to get the shakes. The bearform buffs make me weak in the knees.

Sul'us
2007-01-22, 04:47 PM
Silvermoon has a "translocator orb" that takes you to the Undercity. Its pretty quick, but I don't think any flightpaths connect with the ones in the Blood Elf starting zone...

I could be wrong, as I haven't explored much outside of it.

Tormsskull
2007-01-22, 04:49 PM
Silvermoon has a "translocator orb" that takes you to the Undercity. Its pretty quick, but I don't think any flightpaths connect with the ones in the Blood Elf starting zone...

I had heard that there was an orb that took you from UC to Silvermoon (not sure if this is going to be the new SM abbreviation, or maybe SN or something...), but I didn't know there was a reverse one. Do the guards instruct you where the orb is?

Sul'us
2007-01-22, 04:54 PM
Not sure about guards, but you will later get two quests that require you to use it. The quest-giver should tell you where it is. If not, it is in the back of the Sunfury Spire. Just go in, and climb the ramp up the tower.

neriana
2007-01-22, 05:05 PM
I like Blood Elves a LOT more than I thought I would. Playing a Blood Elf priest is very fun. I love the beautiful city destroyed thing, and the fact that they really are tough, honorable, and generally fit the Horde. As expected, I don't like Draenei, but the way Draenei NPCs act leads me to believe that they're completely bonkers, so I don't dislike them as much as I thought I would. They're still Alliance, though, so they don't matter much to me.

Poison_Fish
2007-01-22, 05:27 PM
Not really, as a player of 2 Taurens, I would contend that warstomp is a better PvP racial. Stun > silence.

What is scary is arcane torrent giving back energy to rogues. 30 energy is a big deal and allows combos that normally can't be done. However, that also means I have to spend a minute and a half setting up the combo =P

You warstomp a mage, he blinks out of it. You warstomp a priest, he fears you a second later, do it to a warlock, he death coils you, paladin can shield, etc. etc. It also has casting time.

Silence is instant, a larger radius, interrupts a casting time, and besides talents, there are no ways to counteract them if you are a caster. Sure, it doesn't really do anything to rogues and warriors, but for all the other classes out there.. that's serious pain.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-22, 05:30 PM
But Warstomp can still be useful where as silence is pretty much useless against Warriors, Rogues and Hunters. (Unless your desperate to stop them healing their pet.) Casters can be good but the tricks you mentioned can get you out of many situations not just being stunned.

Joran
2007-01-22, 06:06 PM
You warstomp a mage, he blinks out of it. You warstomp a priest, he fears you a second later, do it to a warlock, he death coils you, druid can shield, etc. etc. It also has casting time.

Silence is instant, a larger radius, interrupts a casting time, and besides talents, there are no ways to counteract them if you are a caster.

Warstomp has the same radius and interrupts casting time as well. It also lasts the same 2 seconds as the silence, but can work against melee classes.

I haven't tried this yet, but I assume the silence does not interrupt flag capping in AB or AV (I could be wrong here), but warstomp does. Warstomp also freezes everyone in their tracks, which is absolutely very useful in PvE (when running from mobs or trying to figure out who to tank).

You are correct that warstomp can be counteracted by talents and has a cast time; it also is subject to diminishing returns on stuns (I'm uncertain if silences have diminishing returns). However, given a choice between the two, excluding the energy gain aspect of Arcane Torrent, I'd prefer warstomp, just because it is generally more useful and less situational.

That said, arcane torrent is exceedingly powerful, both because of its silence and its energy gain. As a blood elf rogue, with improved kick, arcane torrent, and the ranks of garrote, I can silence a caster for 7 seconds. That's... overpowered.

Alarra
2007-01-22, 06:13 PM
I quit playing WoW and now have bought BC and come back and love it. The bloodelf racials are fun and I really like both new races. And yeah, bloodelf starting zone is definitely one of the best in the game.

Poison_Fish
2007-01-22, 07:23 PM
Oh, I love the blood elf starting zone.

On the note of racials, over-all, I agree, war stomp has much more utility. Just, as mentioned above with the rogue example, the silence is frightening. And a rogue with decent weapons these days will take down most casting classes in the first place, so, the ability to counter act belf rogues is even harder.

That being said, I only really see the paladin or rogue for blood elf's using the silence a whole lot for what it is, rather then just getting some energy for it.

I believe the silence also doesn't have diminishing returns, but don't quote me on that.

I have yet to try out the Draenei though, they do look very awesome.

Wehrkind
2007-01-23, 03:49 AM
I don't know, I have a tauren warrior at 60, and I very rarely use warstomp in pvp, and then usually only for stopping flag cappers.
The casting time, which is lost with damage, is just too long for most classes I care about stunning, and only affecting 4 targets is very limiting.
I was dissappointed I couldn't roll a BE warrior (I wanted a fury warrior instead of a mortal striker). Being able to charge in and silence just as the caster group realizes you are right there would be brutal. A rogue is almost as good, since 2 seconds is plenty to drop a mage or priest if they are silenced and you get the drop on them.
Saddly I already have an orc lowbie rogue for pvp, so the BE went pally, just like all the rest.

Leon
2007-01-23, 07:57 AM
Im Loving TBC, ive started a Blood Elf Lock and Dranei Shaman but them and the Zones are small fry to what ive been enjoying - Outland, exploring the new and wonderful world, running like mad from high lvl mobs, buying a Mana Wyrm and sending it to my lvl 8 lock.

There are crazy people that are already 70 and on Flying mounts but im in no rush - ive just completed most of the quests that i can do in Hellfire and am moving onto Zangarmarsh.

Initaly i wasnt too imperessed by the look but once i got out of HFP and into other zones it was Amazing - the Mushrooms of Zangarmasrh, the jagged mountians of Blades Edge, Netherstorm and its EcoDomes amid blasted rock, the Savanah of Nagarand.

The gear, oh the gear it is awesome - its very nice to see the "Hardcore" raider types finding that this easy to get "blue" is betther than there Epic that took them many many runs to get or such. My mage has enjoyed a Massive boost to spellpwer from all manner of quest rewards

One thing i see on the Downside is the SHEER amount of Factions introduced
others may point out the lack of things such as class trainers but hey - Its good money selling Portals to Cities

Arlanthe
2007-01-23, 09:24 AM
As an alliance player I am pleased to see all of the teenage fanboys and fangirls making a mass exodus to the Blood Elves. The average MQ (maturity quotient) of the alliance on my server has gone up.

I am disheartened by the fact most new character being created are female toons. Are you really going to flirt with your avatar?

The Outlands are fantastic.

Personally, the three things I would have done different are 1) introduced two new trade skills rather than one so almost every new toon won't have the same skillset (perhaps also woodworking) and 2) simultaneously allowed Dwarves to take the Shaman class and Orcs to take the Paladin class, to even out race re-rolling, and 3) _maybe_ invented a new class available to both races to offset the overwhelming tendency of the new races to take the previously excluded class. If all of these had been done, there wouldn't be a ridiculous influx of Draenei Shaman Jewelcrafters and Blood Elf Paladin Jewelcrafters.

But I'd still trade all of that, and am quite happy with, the average age of my faction on my server increasing two years.

Cubey
2007-01-23, 09:37 AM
Playing a Blood Elf priest is very fun. I love the beautiful city destroyed thing, and the fact that they really are tough, honorable, and generally fit the Horde.
As expected, I don't like Draenei, but the way Draenei NPCs act leads me to believe that they're completely bonkers

What's funny is that my impressions were a complete opposite. Draenei are very honorable and unwavering in their respect to all life, so much as that they do not torture a Blood Elf (their biggest racial enemy!) prisoner to extract information. Blood Elves, on the other side, have no regrets about harming and killing other races to fulfill their goals, satiate their magic addiction, or simply for fun. Also their Paladins/Blood Knights - THESE are completely bonkers.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-23, 09:44 AM
I am disheartened by the fact most new character being created are female toons. Are you really going to flirt with your avatar?


Its more than that. Some people don't like male casters because they look too musculer. I made my Warlock a guy just to stop people from saying I was perverted but really he looks a bit stupid because he looks stronger than a friend of mines Female Night Elf warrior.

And why do you think Orcs should be Paladins? I thought they hated the light.

Arlanthe
2007-01-23, 09:55 AM
Its more than that. Some people don't like male casters because they look too musculer. I made my Warlock a guy just to stop people from saying I was perverted but really he looks a bit stupid because he looks stronger than a friend of mines Female Night Elf warrior.

And why do you think Orcs should be Paladins? I thought they hated the light.

Great point about casters and body tone, well taken. I have a male mage, and he is sort of absurdly built for the theoretical bookwork type. I think that speaks to supporting allowing players to be able to choose their body frame.

Well, Orcs as Paladins make as much sense as the Blood Elves turning to the Horde. Not much. The whole fact the elves joined the Horde is kind of silly, and I know the theoretical history of the move, but it's a round peg in a square hole and a half baked excuse. Neither makes perfect sense- but at least allowing Orc to be Paladins would thin the BE Paladin ranks some.

I also think it's goofy that the savage, torturing, murdering, magic addicted, Blood Elf sabateurs somehow follow the light and draw *holy* power. Go figure.

ObadiahtheSlim
2007-01-23, 09:59 AM
All the new factions don't really mean much. It is easy enough to hit honored with them all through normal questing and 5man runs. As soon as I finish up my questing for CE rep, I'm gonna start hitting other areas to see whats out there.

Tormsskull
2007-01-23, 10:02 AM
I also think it's goofy that the savage, torturing, murdering, magic addicted, Blood Elf sabateurs somehow follow the light and draw *holy* power. Go figure.

Actually, they don't follow the light. They stole the light. I never got into WoW history much, but if you go into Silvermoon city, into the Paladin's place, they have this huge sorta star-shaped thing magically paralyzed. There are like 4 or 5 people drawing power off of it. That's how the blood elves can be paladins.

Honestly though, this was done as a balance issue. Paladins were far better than shamans in end game raiding, and the horde complained non-stop about the imbalance @ end game. The developers tried to fix it by changing the shaman a bit, but they realized that they would have to alter the shaman too much in order for it to work, and they didn't want to do that.

Joran
2007-01-23, 10:43 AM
The whole fact the elves joined the Horde is kind of silly, and I know the theoretical history of the move, but it's a round peg in a square hole and a half baked excuse.

I agree wholeheartedly. I can see a Forsaken/Blood Elf alliance (there was a touching scene with Sylvanas), but the Forsaken and the Blood Elves don't share much in common goal-wise or even territory-wise with the rest of the Horde.

Also, Tormsskull is completely correct, although, I would have preferred the developers try to rework it so that raiding with shamans would have a completely different feel than raiding with paladins, rather than take the easy way out and give everybody paladins and shamans.

Alas, game mechanics > lore.

MaxKaladin
2007-01-23, 01:14 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. I can see a Forsaken/Blood Elf alliance (there was a touching scene with Sylvanas), but the Forsaken and the Blood Elves don't share much in common goal-wise or even territory-wise with the rest of the Horde.I've long thought that there should have been at least four factions:

1. Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes
2. Horde: Orcs, Trolls
3. Forsaken: Forsaken
4. Nature People: Night Elves, Tauren.

I don't know enough about the new races to decide where they should go in this scheme but my guess would be that Blood Elves would go with the Forsaken and Draenei would go with the Nature People.

While that division "feels" better than shoehorning the Night Elves into the Alliance and the Tauren/Forsaken into the Horde, I'm sure it wouldn't work from a balance standpoint. In any case, it would have needed to be done from the start. I can't see them splitting the factions apart at this stage in the game.

On another note, I'm pretty disappointed that we didn't get any more character slots with the expansion. I've got all mine full on my server and I'll have to delete a character if I want to make one of the new races.

Joran
2007-01-23, 06:09 PM
The Horde should include Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, and (maybe) Ogres.

The Tauren weren't particularly shoe-horned in; Thrall and the Orcs saved them from Centaur attacks and the Tauren owe a debt of gratitude to the Orcs.

They also share a shamanistic view of the world and are each trying to establish a home on Kalimdor (Orgrimmar and Thunder Bluff respectively).

neriana
2007-01-23, 06:33 PM
Blood elves are not savage, torturing, murderous, or in any way, shape or form evil. They're determined to survive, to rebuild their homeland, and extremely ticked off at the Alliance for the Alliance's attempt to murder every single last one of them while they were allied with them. (Which, by the way, plenty of draenei STILL WANT TO DO.) As for their magic addiction, they suck magic out of magical animals. If they don't, they go completely and totally insane. Oh noes they kill animals to survive, how evil of them! Wait...

Kish
2007-01-23, 06:49 PM
I also think it's goofy that the savage, torturing, murdering, magic addicted, Blood Elf sabateurs somehow follow the light and draw *holy* power. Go figure.

But the Scarlet Crusade--which actually, unlike the blood elves, deserves all those adjectives--having paladins doesn't bother you?

Really, the idea that paladins in WoW have to be, or are even particularly likely to be, good has always been a joke.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-23, 07:13 PM
Yeah there seem to be more evil Paladins than good these days.

The Glyphstone
2007-01-23, 07:29 PM
I must be the only person here who doesn't like the looks of the Dranaei....maybe it's all the exposure to mind flayers I have as a D&D addict, but the tentacles on the chin just spoil the whole effect. The warrior w/ the crystal hammer in the opening cinematic was bad-*** looking, but the regular draenai....blargh.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-23, 07:31 PM
Just don't put tentacles on then. Draenei with no hair, weird horns, or tentacles look pretty good.

Leon
2007-01-23, 08:54 PM
Yeah there seem to be more evil Paladins than good these days.

Good and Evil has nothing to do with Warcraft Paladins - there is the Light and how it is Swung that matters.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-23, 11:35 PM
About the BE paladin lorewise, we do not yet truly know if the Naaru is imprisoned. One of those buggers can level a city with no effort, so I think some magic restraints ain't gonna do much. I think the Naaru is being a martyr- trying to redeem the blood elves by returning their connection to the light.

Lilivati
2007-01-24, 02:15 AM
I'm adoring it. It's like being new to the game all over again.

Blood elves are probably my favorite new addition, but because all my friends are alliance, I keep getting drawn back over there hehe. I have made a blood elf rogue, a draenei warrior, and a draenei hunter, and my night elf hunter and druid are busy exploring outlands (more the hunter than the druid, since, well, I have this masochistic love of restoration and I am NOT looking forward to another ten levels of that). It's fun to not know everything again.

Personally, I think the naaru just can't fit out through the tunnel leading to its prison, and is too polite to knock a hole in the wall. :smallwink:

Arlanthe
2007-01-24, 06:35 AM
Blood elves are not savage, torturing, murderous, or in any way, shape or form evil. They're determined to survive, to rebuild their homeland, and extremely ticked off at the Alliance for the Alliance's attempt to murder every single last one of them while they were allied with them. (Which, by the way, plenty of draenei STILL WANT TO DO.) As for their magic addiction, they suck magic out of magical animals. If they don't, they go completely and totally insane. Oh noes they kill animals to survive, how evil of them! Wait...

Well, they did try to finish the job of making the Draenei extinct by blowing up their escape vessel and last hope... and they are attacking the alliance, not just "joining the horde" or "seeking their lost brethren", but literally attacking their former comrades for reasons that make no sense, and going out of their way to do it. And being rather savage about it.

They have turned evil, and I argue this because:

1) Consorting with high ranking demons, allying with evil demons for power and magic
2) Enslaving leper gnomes
3) The official TBC BE site lists them as "manipulating and corrupting the Naaru's luminous energies", "bending stolen powers to their will", and geerally being "sinister"
4) They are basically torturing an imprisoned Naaru, and they torture their prisoners (compare that to the BE prisoner in the Draenei area that they do not torture). Whether the Naaru is martyring itself or not is irrelevant, the BEs think they have "imprisoned" and are harvesting the holy power to attack other followers of the light. The intent is also diabolic.

The alliance did not "attempt to murder every single last one of them", by the way. I have no idea where you pulled that one from. And I understand they do much of what they do out of desperation, but slavery and murder is still slavery and murder. Also, I don't think they "take mana" from animals so to speak, I would describe it as they take mana from "living sources of mana" since by and large it is other humanoids they steal it from.

To wit, I agree with Max Kaladin below that the "factions" are very contrived. The technical reason to do this was to create two distinct factions with different races and provide game balance, but the story reasons are implausible and a stretch that quite frankly, I have trouble suspending my disbelief to accept. The Tauren make no sense being with the Horde, I agree, and would be better with the NE in a faction of their own. But I still hold that the Blood Elves as ridiculously contrived in their current form.

I think this guy on WoW wiki has it right: http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Blood_elf/Analysis
And this assessment: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2006/08/blood-elf-paladins-and-faction.html

Joran
2007-01-24, 10:21 AM
The Tauren make no sense being with the Horde, I agree, and would be better with the NE in a faction of their own.

But they do make sense with the Horde. They share a common goal of establishing a new home on Kalimdor and a shamanistic outlook on the world.

As I said above, as well, Thrall and Orcs saved the Taurens from annihilation at the hands of the Centaur. Heck, Tauren were units with the Orcs in Warcraft III.

*sigh* What makes you think they don't belong?

P.S. The factions are contrived, which annoys me, but with a MMORPG, sacrifices must be made in lore and immersion for gameplay purposes.

Mr. Moon
2007-01-24, 12:48 PM
All I can say about Burning Crusade is that "I WANT IT!!!". You should have seen me when I was watching the world premire at the Video Game Awards on Spike. Sitting there in front of the TV, my eyes wide as dinner plates, my chin had fallen so far I was surprised it didn't hit the floor. I just sat there, leaning towards the T.V as if to take it in better, stunned. When it ended and the comercial break started, I was still just sitting there, speachless. As soon as I was able to talk again, the first words out of my mouth were: "Wow. I want that so much."

Unfourtunitly, I won't be getting it any time soon. $15 a month is way to high a price for me.

neriana
2007-01-24, 01:43 PM
Blood Elves were betrayed nearly to their extinction by racist humans -- though at the time, they were calling themselves high elves. As for "torturing their prisoners", I don't know where you're getting that from; perhaps you are confusing them with the Forsaken. Also, Blood Elves /mostly/ get their mana from those mana creatures who hang out around them. They do take mana from sentient creatures, yep, they sure do kill their enemies there. What, you want they should cuddle up to them, only to find knives in their backs again? After all, the Alliance never kills -- oh wait.

Night Elves and Tauren do not belong together. This is because Night Elves are a corrupt, selfish, blind, childish race who are obsessed with regaining their immortality no matter the cost to the world. Whereas Tauren are, ya know, good (most of them). Like Thrall.

As for the descriptions, they're basically bollocks. I think the Tauren have the only racial description that actually plays out in the game.

Arlanthe
2007-01-24, 03:01 PM
This is because Night Elves are a corrupt, selfish, blind, childish race who are obsessed with regaining their immortality no matter the cost to the world. Whereas Tauren are, ya know, good (most of them). Like Thrall.

I won't disagree there. But then we get into the wider issue of inconsistency through both actions and WoW in general. The Taruen are "good", for sure, and yes Thrall, but then again so is Jaina Proudmoore and Magni, etc, and most of the aliance is also "good", fighting off the Scarlet Crusade, demons, and the like. The Tauren are certainly better than the Blood Elves, and the night elves are not all immortality obsessed. But yes, selfish brats indeed.

If the myth of the "goodness" of the leaders or factions extended into the real world, there would be no conflicts in the game because everyone is good, right? I don't see how the Tauren fit with, say, the Forsaken.

Oh- and another big inconsistency... the trolls were almost made extinct... bu Murlocs! hahahahaha! Ah, brings a tear to my eye every time.

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-24, 03:13 PM
Oh- and another big inconsistency... the trolls were almost made extinct... bu Murlocs! hahahahaha! Ah, brings a tear to my eye every time.

GRBLRBLRBLRBLRBL!!!

:smalltongue:

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-24, 03:44 PM
The Blood Elves are not evil. They are locked in a no-win situation- drain mana of sentient things and live, or do not and face a painful death. They even drain mana in moderation- if the didn't they would be Wretched. The act of gaining power from the naaru is considered to be a lesser of two evils- they are using the stolen power to destroy the Scourge. They hate Arthas so strongly that the end justifies the means- a Machiavellian choice, to say the least. They torture prisoners, but that reflects the hardships they have had to endure. Beings from other races hate them and have even attempted genocide. While the blood elves are not as good as the Tauren or the Orcs, they are not truly evil, like the Forsaken.

The Night Elves are a decadent race. They brought about the invasion of the Burning Legion in the first place, but they redeemed themselves. They are still decadent, but there are those who strive for betterment in everything the Night Elves do (Malfurion for one)

Kish
2007-01-24, 05:32 PM
The alliance did not "attempt to murder every single last one of them", by the way. I have no idea where you pulled that one from.

The name Grand Marshal Garithos doesn't mean anything to you, I take it? It's a pity, I'd say knowing about him is fairly central to understanding the blood elves and their hostility to the Alliance in general and humans in particular.

Arlanthe
2007-01-25, 01:54 AM
The name Grand Marshal Garithos doesn't mean anything to you, I take it? It's a pity, I'd say knowing about him is fairly central to understanding the blood elves and their hostility to the Alliance in general and humans in particular.

I've played through all of the RTS Warcrafts. He was one human, not the entire alliance, in a classic hubris-nemesis tale that in the end resulted in his well deserved death. One person is not the alliance. I can pick a character or three from any race and point out their failings.

Blizzard _tries_ to introduce moral ambiguity and both "evil" and "good" people in all races, but somehow with the Horde the races generally tend to follow a "sinister" theme, while with the alliance they just pick a few people to do individual, stupid things i.e. Garithos and Admiral Proudmoore.

I think they did a decent job with the battleground backstory- in Alterac Valley, the Dwarves are the aggressors trying to access some of their heritage that lay buried there, yes, but aggressor all the same. In Warsong Gulch, the Orcs are the aggressors, invading the Night Elf lands and chopping them down for resources. The whole of those two adds up to "they are all evil" (or righteous defenders). This balance by and large lacks over the whole of the Warcraft universe, however.

Kish
2007-01-25, 05:19 PM
I've played through all of the RTS Warcrafts. He was one human, not the entire alliance, in a classic hubris-nemesis tale that in the end resulted in his well deserved death. One person is not the alliance.


Oh, then that wasn't you talking about "the blood elves" doing things earlier? If I truly wanted to mirror the statements "they did try to finish the job of making the Draenei extinct by blowing up their escape vessel and last hope...They have turned evil," a better analogy would be "the humans are terrorists who wear red bandanas and plot to conquer Stormwind with an underground ship." Garithos was a Grand Marshal and the commander of the Alliance forces in Lordaeron. That makes the Alliance as a whole far more reasonably responsible for him than the blood elves as a whole are responsible for the Sunhawks, who are hostile to both the Alliance and the Horde, including all PC blood elves.

Earlier you talked about the blood elves being evil because they (there's that word again) have allied with demons for power and magic. To address that, I need to rather thoroughly spoiler the Burning Crusade, so I would strongly advise anyone who hasn't already closed the book on the blood elves and walked away not to click this spoiler.

Yes, Kael'thas Sunstrider has allied himself with demons. However, the price he paid was higher than he was expecting. As the author my sig is taken from says in another of her books, "The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider was desperate to save his people. Now, self-proclaimed King Kael'thas, warlock and servant of the Burning Legion, has all the power he wanted--but no longer can think of any reason why he'd use it for the benefit of those fools back on Azeroth.

Having allied himself with the Burning Legion makes him anathema to the Horde, including the Horde blood elves. This is why he's a raid boss, and not just for the Alliance. Why the blood elves, as they explore Outland, will gradually discover what their once-great leader has become, and why, to have any hope of a bright future as part of the new Horde, they must destroy him.



This balance by and large lacks over the whole of the Warcraft universe, however.
I actually agree with this statement. It's only that our agreement would break down immediately upon proceeding to the question of which faction is better over the whole of the Warcraft universe. The orcs and the tauren do not follow a sinister theme in any way and--I actually can't think of a single Alliance race that I wouldn't say does, one way or another. The night elves, proud "defenders of the land," are themselves responsible for, even to the point of making their city in, the greatest threat to the land. The gnomes wiped out their own capital city and most of their people with a technological accident--how much bigger could Blizzard make the, "THEIR 'TINKERING' IS HARMLESS LIKE THE OLD NIGHT ELVES' USE OF THE WELL OF ETERNITY WAS HARMLESS" sign?

Balthor
2007-01-30, 12:36 PM
Yeah there seem to be more evil Paladins than good these days.
Shouldn't they be anit-paladin? I mean really....evil pallys...sounds more like a blackguard to me...

Leon
2007-01-31, 04:33 PM
Shouldn't they be anit-paladin? I mean really....evil pallys...sounds more like a blackguard to me...

Once again - equating it to D&D Standards doesnt work

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-31, 04:40 PM
Thank you Leon. Warcraft=/=Dungeons and Dragons, so there are no anti-paladins, blackguards, or monks. Plese stop making that comparison.

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-31, 04:52 PM
Although, I kind of wanted a Monk class with the BC... focuses on using Unarmed attacks or something.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-31, 04:55 PM
Even if it it isn't a monk they should really put more fist weapons in and aclasse that uses them.

Tengu
2007-01-31, 06:03 PM
The Scarlet Crusade has monks, both in the monastery and their bastion in Stratholme - but since they are the usual cannon fodder, everything they do is autoattack and is a kick once in a while. I think that if you want to play a monk, a rogue using fist weapons would be quite good at representing that - TBC added a bit of them, so you're not stuck to using white junk before you somehow get some pieces from ZG or BWL.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-31, 06:13 PM
They are monks as in religous monks not go around punching stuff monks. They only punch and kick because they have no other weapons.

ThorWarriorX
2007-01-31, 07:44 PM
Kish, I agree with everything you said so far. =)

Arlanthe, if the Alliance was good, that emissary (Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne, BE campaign, I think it's the second mission) would not tell the humans to leave Kael, would him?. Those humans, too, would not leave the BE to die in the Scourge's... Claws? And remember what Admiral Proudmoore's humans did to the Thunder Lizard's place.

Then again, not all the orcs would have followed Grom Hellscream in Reign of Chaos if they were THAT honorable, good, or intelligent, when he drunk from that tainted fountain. And, come on, if Cenarius could raise a forest out of it's trunks, why couldn't he give the Orcs some timber? Selfish brats, INDEED.

But do remember, people, each race has it's culture, it's viewpoint, it's concept of "light". The Taurens (my preffered race, be it said-by), for example, have their Ultimate Good Thing as "Mother Earth". The humans, God (Judging by the churches' architeture), or perhaps the Warcraft humans just follow "good". In that case, the evil ones amongst them would be the ones that can't understand the good, or whatever. Do remember who helped that orc (Was it Gul'dan or Ner'zhul??) open the portal from Draenor to the Warcraft world.

The Night Elves are equivalent to the Alliance: Wherein it's formed by humans, gnomes, dwarves and a handful of high elves, the Night "Elves" are formed by the pure ones and the others: Dryads, "keepers of the grove", the druids, who are not pure night elves...

And if I remember correctly, there is a myth that the first race (After the really old and/or not-civilized races) was the Troll, right? In those southern empires? And, to those that don't know/remember, there is a VAST array of trolls, like Dark, Jungle (Ones that joined the Horde), Forest (Who were part of the horde in the old times), Frost, etc. Aye, the Orcs were from other planet, and so were the Eredar and the demons.

Where was I? Ah, yes, Northern Eastern Kingdoms. The Scourge, as every Warcraft fan knows, arose because of the Burning Legion's plans. Under the command of the Lich King, Ner'zhul (a former Orc! Who would say?), they eventually got rid of the shackles. But, in that time that this Lich King leeched Arthas' power to survive, some of the Scourge's undead got rid of Arthas' control (I can't figure out why they weren't bound again after Ner'zhul and Arthas became one, though B) ). Sylvanas was one of them. Oooh, she was a Silvermoon Elf ! Now remember that the Scourge has undead from various places, including Silvermoon, Lordaeron, Dalaran, the Hillsbrad Foothills, and many other small places, meaning the Scourge and, consequently the Forsaken *should* have, undead from many races. So that's great for the ex-elves, because the survivors named themselves BLOOD ELVES and have retaken their ancient homeland from the evil grip of the Scourge ! Now why the Forsaken can't join the Blood Elves?! Granted, they are undead, but they're still their family.

And one thing I think you're all forgetting, save for a few, is that there are many minority groups out of the main unions. Cenarion's Circle, for example, holds Taurens and Night Elves alike. I personally love that. But, as someone mentioned earlier, the two races aren't completely compatible.

For the "big" unions, I'd say:

Alliance: Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes. (Enemy of Horde, UotR)
Horde: Orcs, Jungle Trolls. (Enemy of Alliance, Neutral to UotR)
Union of the Renegade: Forsaken, Blood Elves. (Enemy to Alliance, Neutral to the Horde)

-Neutral- (These presented here would be neutral between themselves)
Taurens. (Enemy of the Alliance, Friendly to the Horde, Enemy of UotR)
Night Elves. (Neutral to the Alliance, Enemy of the Horde, Enemy of UotR)
Draenei. (Neutral to the Alliance, Hostile to the Horde, Enemy of the UotR)

I also dislike the small ammount of classes and the fact that most races can use most classes. I mean, I'm not against game balance (That would be ridiculous), but Draenei have nothing to do with the Elements, the way Orcs and Taurens are. Also, said that the Blood Elves "enslaved" that Naaru, they could get "light" powers, but not as a Paladin. The Taurens should get a Spirit Walker class, too, just as Trolls should get a Witch Doctor or something. Dwarves, besides Hunter, should get something like Marksman, and gnomes should get something like Tinkerer. And Undead using healing spells is just pathetic.

I would suggest Blizzard to add In-class specializations or other classes themselves, so such problems wouldn't exist. But there are three things in the way of this idea: Their wish to get money before entertaining the players, their lack of desire to be one year coding new things, and the "just take it" stance that players have.

These are my fif... Never mind.

(By the way, who would love to see Thrall and Jaina getting married or somethin'? That'd be realy nice !)

ThorWarriorX

The Orange Zergling
2007-01-31, 07:46 PM
Oh yeah, speaking of the Scarlet Monestary/Crusade; where do I go to get quests for SM? I recently dinged 31 for the first time and I hear that's in/near the level range for SM, and I can't find any damn quests for it.

EDIT: I also think that each race should have gotten a class unique to it. Although that would play Hell with balance...

Sage in the Playground
2007-01-31, 08:08 PM
I was surprised that Blood Elves were RECREATIONALLY addicted addicted to magic. "You've been working too hard, calm down, tap some mana crystals"


About the BE paladin lorewise, we do not yet truly know if the Naaru is imprisoned. One of those buggers can level a city with no effort, so I think some magic restraints ain't gonna do much. I think the Naaru is being a martyr- trying to redeem the blood elves by returning their connection to the light.

I SO want that to happen.


And I am mad the Horde is just becoming Evil City.

Talya
2007-02-01, 12:57 AM
I love this game. The expansion makes it better.

Anybody play on The Scryers? (New server, I just transferred there to avoid the queues.)

Reinforcements
2007-02-01, 01:23 AM
I love this game. The expansion makes it better.

Anybody play on The Scryers? (New server, I just transferred there to avoid the queues.)
No, but we should totally form an Order of the Stick forum people guild. I'm just saying.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-01, 11:33 AM
Great idea, indeed, Reinforcements... But I only have WoW up to version 1.8.0... Still, I played since 1.5.0 in dial up, in my Pentium 3 755 mhz with 128 MB computer =P

I believe it'll take some time for me to be able to play again, be it on Bli55ard or "alt." servers.

Also, is it just me, or the world size is just so freaking small for a... Say, world?

WampaX
2007-02-01, 12:20 PM
No, but we should totally form an Order of the Stick forum people guild. I'm just saying.

Tried and failed.
The old threads are floating around here someplace.

And no, I don't currently play, nor have I ever played an MMO.

TheQuestionable
2007-02-01, 08:46 PM
Oh yeah, speaking of the Scarlet Monestary/Crusade; where do I go to get quests for SM? I recently dinged 31 for the first time and I hear that's in/near the level range for SM, and I can't find any damn quests for it.

EDIT: I also think that each race should have gotten a class unique to it. Although that would play Hell with balance...

Go to www.wowhead.com (http://www.wowhead.com), click the following: Browse, Quests, Dungeons, then the desired one. All the quests should be listed with full details *starting location* (there is even an additional helpful tip from other players about that quest). You may also find other interesting information on that site. That's what I use whenever I'm having trouble on quests.

Nice rant Thorwarriorx

I do think the large creature the BE have is indeed captured and prisoned, and not only are the six or so BE in the room drawing powers of the light from it; they're also holding it. That would explain why as a BE when you highlight it it's hostile but when you highlight the D's, when you play one, it's friendly.

My sources come from a video I watched that featured some of the Blizz members discussing the BE's while showing a tour of Silvermoon in actual gameplay (weeks before the release).

On a totally different topic, I think Orges and Nagas should be added to the Horde side and...something added to the Alliance (I'm pro-Horde anyway, what do I care...they can have Dryads *they're immune to disease:smallbiggrin: *). Then again more races isn't really what they need if they want to increase more attention and gain more followers (like Blizzard needs more money!).

I've heard of suggestions of classes like Runemaster or even a Ghost-like class *racial ability to cross into the dead realm (where dead players walk to their bodies...not sure if it has a name) for a short period of time*.

ilovefire
2007-02-01, 09:54 PM
ARGH! Okay, I've had to buy a new RAM stick, that's fine. Now I go to install BC... and it never goes past 91%. Anyone know what to do with this installation problem?

neriana
2007-02-01, 10:40 PM
I was surprised that Blood Elves were RECREATIONALLY addicted addicted to magic. "You've been working too hard, calm down, tap some mana crystals"

It seems you have not played a Blood Elf. It is made very, very clear in the game that, if a Blood Elf ignores his or her magic addiction, he or she becomes Wretched: a completely insane (and hideous) being who is utterly obsessed with draining magic from absolutely anything or anyone. Blood Elves have to indulge their addiction in moderation, or they will utterly destroy themselves. There's nothing "recreational" about it.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-01, 11:34 PM
Thanks, TheQuestionable. The first time a post of mine is... Congratulated, in the internet.

And about...

or even a Ghost-like class *racial ability to cross into the dead realm (where dead players walk to their bodies...not sure if it has a name) for a short period of time*.
I believe a possible Tauren Spiritwalker would fit into that =)

About the ogres, I disagree... They're too strong, stupid, and immense to be a player race, not to mention it would be impossible to play even as a warrior, because in WoW a warrior is disciplinated as a fighter from D&D...

But now that I think about it, the naga would be a great addition to the game! They could have made Suramar their home, after all, ten years have passed since the events of Warcraft III! But, if they would join the Horde (Very unlikely...) who would join the alliance? Gnolls? ó.Ò

The Orange Zergling
2007-02-01, 11:54 PM
Gnolls on the Alliance... who'd be their leader, Hogger?

:smalltongue:

Beleriphon
2007-02-02, 10:01 AM
I also dislike the small ammount of classes and the fact that most races can use most classes. I mean, I'm not against game balance (That would be ridiculous), but Draenei have nothing to do with the Elements, the way Orcs and Taurens are. Also, said that the Blood Elves "enslaved" that Naaru, they could get "light" powers, but not as a Paladin. The Taurens should get a Spirit Walker class, too, just as Trolls should get a Witch Doctor or something. Dwarves, besides Hunter, should get something like Marksman, and gnomes should get something like Tinkerer. And Undead using healing spells is just pathetic.


Actually Draenei being Shamans makes a great deal of sense. If you play a shaman you get a quest to find out why you can be a shaman. A large number of the draenei don't like the shamans, particularly the vindicators (read paladins). The draenei learned shamanism from the Broken Ones, being the odd looking draenei things with three tentacles coming out of their backs.

Also, note that blood elves get the same powers as paladins but their in game dialouge is totally different then the Alliance paladins. Their quests are radically different as well in tone and style. Also the epic mount they get is actually a Blood Knight Charger and is red and creepy looking as opposed to the shiny holy looking one the Alliance paladins get.

As for specific classes maybe, but if you look at what you have then the existing classes cover that all nicely if you use the correct talents. As for the Undead using healing spells why not? Is there anything in Warcraft lore that suggests they can't, or are you basing that on a D&D bias?

Crazy Owl
2007-02-02, 10:14 AM
Mainly because their healing spells are Holy and isn't the light meant to be against undead?

Beleriphon
2007-02-02, 10:29 AM
Mainly because their healing spells are Holy and isn't the light meant to be against undead?

Shadow priest can still heal. The isn't for or against anything, it just is. Sort of like the Force in that respect.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-02, 10:43 AM
Beleriphon, I'm not saying Draenei can't have Shamans, just not the "elemental" kind of Draenei, mainly because of their culture. The Taurens' Spirit Walker is even nearer of what a Draenei Shaman could be than the one we currently have in the game.

BE Paladins get the same powers that the other races' paladins get. It errors out in here. A Paladin is supposed to be given powers from the Light, not to steal powers from it. Therefore, the powers can't be the same.

Also,
As for the Undead using healing spells why not? Is there anything in Warcraft lore that suggests they can't, or are you basing that on a D&D bias?
Check the Warcraft III Human Paladin and the Undead Death Knight. Holy Light and Death Coil do exactly the same thing, but in different "polarities". Also, that Heal spell that those elven priests cast is holy, and no other undead can heal others by magic means, only the Obsidian Statue, which channels negative energy. Besides, playing an unique Undead Necromancer would be just awesome ;)

But seriously, what other race could join the Alliance in my model, counting that the Naga joins the Horde, as TheQuestionable suggested?

arnoldrew
2007-02-02, 11:27 AM
I've always thought it would be cool if they offered goblins and pandaren. They could start out as neutral and then eventually you would have to pick a side.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-02, 03:07 PM
The Goblins were part of the Horde, long ago. They split it from it to get their own destiny. They have those (four?) cities, too, not counting with the possible capital that no one knows much about. Pandarens would be nice! But where is that Pandaria situated? O.o

Even if there were Neutral races, why should they join? It should be just a choice. Neutral races can have their own places, too.

Weebl
2007-02-02, 03:21 PM
I am yet to see it but from what I hear, it's awesome! Buying it on saturday so I'll post when I eventually get off!

TheQuestionable
2007-02-02, 05:46 PM
Thanks, TheQuestionable. The first time a post of mine is... Congratulated, in the internet.

Your welcome

And I don't think they should limit classes to only one race. The game would be more balanced if it was available to the entire faction; and even more if it was available to all races (or just both sides). I don't think things like Tauren Spiritwalker, Troll Witchdocter, Dwarven Brewer, BE Spellbreaker, or even Gnome TinkerMaster would be fair.

I'd love to see Orges, they were playable in Warcraft 2, it would be logical to the lore to invite them to the Horde fraction again (same for goblins...they could turn from neutrality. The lore and present aren't solid; things tend to change *or should). Concerning them being too strong: just balance them out, make them a major melee class. I'm sure they had the same problems with making the Tauren playable.

Gnolls couldn't be a playable race b/c they aren't intellegent enough (compared to humans) to band together and form a type of stable union.
"They have been known to manipulate each other into fights over ridiculous things like "whose shadow is larger." I t has often been stated that the Gnolls would be quite a fearsome race, if they ever stopped tearing each other to pieces long enough to organize themselves into an army." `quote from Bestiary (Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos)


Pandarens would be nice!

Yes, they would but sadly the creator of the Panda race (that was featured in WC3), Samwise Didier, declined the Blizz team's offer about including it as a playable race in WOW after he retired. I'm not sure why but my guess is he didn't want to ruin the realm of warcraft with a race that really wouldn't fit.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-02, 07:11 PM
Really now, just because one race gets a class that other doesn't and vice-versa the game gets unbalanced? It's illogical ! They're just different -- They don't have to be equally powerful in every type of thing. You even suggested they could balance Ogres to make them playable, so why not put new racial classes with completely different abilities?

Well, although ogres are immense, immensely powerful, and immensely stupid, they would indeed make a great playable race. They could join the Horde, yes, but lore-wise, only the Stonemaul clan would join (See Rexxar's campaign in The Frozen Throne)...

But I don't think Goblins should join the Horde. They're best on their own.

Sage in the Playground
2007-02-03, 01:45 PM
It seems you have not played a Blood Elf. It is made very, very clear in the game that, if a Blood Elf ignores his or her magic addiction, he or she becomes Wretched: a completely insane (and hideous) being who is utterly obsessed with draining magic from absolutely anything or anyone. Blood Elves have to indulge their addiction in moderation, or they will utterly destroy themselves. There's nothing "recreational" about it.

I know about the Wretched. The bit in quotations was an real quote. I have a BE pally.

Penguinizer
2007-02-03, 01:48 PM
Shadow priest can still heal. The isn't for or against anything, it just is. Sort of like the Force in that respect.
Use the force you must.

No, I couldnt resist.

Jamin
2007-02-07, 07:16 PM
World of Warcraft looks like a fun game. However I dislike the whole Horde=Evil Alliance=good thing they have going on. In fact ever person I have talked too who has only played WoW thinks that way. Well it is not true IMO the horde is less evil then the lazy humans who sat back and did next to nothing to help their fallow humans in Lordaeron.

rant over

The Orange Zergling
2007-02-07, 08:11 PM
I see the two factions as shades of gray, actually. Neutral vs Neutral, no good/evil thing going on. At least since the Burning Crusade.

neriana
2007-02-08, 08:37 PM
World of Warcraft looks like a fun game. However I dislike the whole Horde=Evil Alliance=good thing they have going on. In fact ever person I have talked too who has only played WoW thinks that way.


Then the people you have talked to who play WoW have no idea what they're talking about.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-08, 08:50 PM
Actually, I see the Horde as much more good than the Alliance. The Horde wants to live it's life, the Alliance wants to destroy that dream because they weren't attentious enough to listen to Medivh's warning, losing one of their kingdoms.

Arlanthe
2007-02-09, 02:55 AM
Actually, I see the Horde as much more good than the Alliance. The Horde wants to live it's life, the Alliance wants to destroy that dream because they weren't attentious enough to listen to Medivh's warning, losing one of their kingdoms.

Some of the people that play WoW like to pretend that there is an equal amount of “good” and “evil” in both factions, so to speak. In reality, I guess those terms are pretty meaningless in WoW since everything is generally about survival. Hordewise the Blood Elves and Forsaken are generally pretty twisted (though if you scroll down, this is a matter of hot debate). The Orcs are decent (some well meaning, others not so much), and the cow people are pretty agreeable by and large, since they are internally focused and passive.

Alliance wise the Night Elves are the kinda twisted race, only it is done pretty subtly (paranoid, xenophobic, trying to regain immortality). They are a good Blood Elf analog. Humans are a good Orc analog because like the Orcs by and large they are decent and some of them are agreeable, and some are not. Draenei and Tauren are analogs in that they are by and large passive, shamanistic minority civilizations (with similar histories, insofar as they were both nearly made extinct while isolated from the rest of the world).

The faction differences come mainly by way of Dwarves and Gnomes versus Forsaken and Trolls. Dwarves and Gnomes are by and large inwardly focused “live and let live” types, interested in learning their history, archaeology, technology, and protecting/recapturing their homes. Forsaken are diabolically sinister, and trolls are antagonistic warmongers.

So if you figure Night Elves equate to Blood Elves, and Orcs equate to Humans, Draenei equate to Tauren- what remains are two by and large “malevolent” leaning races in Horde, and two by and large “good” or at least “passive” races in alliance.

Horde players will try and convince you “teh alliance are Evils more than horedz!!!1!!”, but I think that the average player would say the factions are at least equally good/evil, if not skewed somewhat toward the Horde being more antagonistic and/or sinister.

It would be interesting to throw a vote up on it.

Mr._Wilson
2007-02-09, 06:21 AM
The only faction I would lable as truly evil are the Royal Apothecary section of the Forsaken. I know when I play Undead, I jump over to the other continent as soon as possible (around level 8-10). I'm not cool with poisoning prisoners, even if it's in "self-defense".

That said, the Tauren and now Draenei are the only two races as I would lable as "good". Everything else is gray.

ilovefire
2007-02-09, 07:44 AM
Arlanthe: MOST trolls are violent warmongers, but the tribe of trolls in the Horde are not. They abandoned most of their more violent ways and took up THrall's, and right now, they just want de islands back, mon. So they aren't 'evil' in the classical sense. THe forsaken, as well, are an 'end justifies the means' race, same with the BLood Elves. Their goal is admirable, even though there methods are, to the greater population, deplorable. Otherwise i agree with your statements.

Crazy Owl
2007-02-09, 10:08 AM
The only faction I would lable as truly evil are the Royal Apothecary section of the Forsaken. I know when I play Undead, I jump over to the other continent as soon as possible (around level 8-10). I'm not cool with poisoning prisoners, even if it's in "self-defense".

That said, the Tauren and now Draenei are the only two races as I would lable as "good". Everything else is gray.

What about Night Elves. Not seen them do anything wrong and their recent wars like Warsong Gulch they were attacked first. Other than that they are trying to protect the forests most of the time which sounds good to me.

neriana
2007-02-09, 03:17 PM
What about Night Elves. Not seen them do anything wrong and their recent wars like Warsong Gulch they were attacked first. Other than that they are trying to protect the forests most of the time which sounds good to me.
They poisoned their own forests in a mad quest to regain their immortality. Have you talked to Fandral Staghelm, their archdruid? Whenever a Horde group manages to kill him, even the Alliance cheers because he's such a greedy, selfish jerk.

Night Elves are also historically xenophobic, racist, childish, and selfish, and continually make the worst decisions possible.

Kish
2007-02-09, 06:52 PM
Humans are a good Orc analog because like the Orcs by and large they are decent

*laughs*

...Oh. Wait. You're actually not joking.

Sage in the Playground
2007-02-09, 07:22 PM
Some of the people that play WoW like to pretend that there is an equal amount of “good” and “evil” in both factions, so to speak. In reality, I guess those terms are pretty meaningless in WoW since everything is generally about survival. Hordewise the Blood Elves and Forsaken are generally pretty twisted (though if you scroll down, this is a matter of hot debate). The Orcs are decent (some well meaning, others not so much), and the cow people are pretty agreeable by and large, since they are internally focused and passive.

Alliance wise the Night Elves are the kinda twisted race, only it is done pretty subtly (paranoid, xenophobic, trying to regain immortality). They are a good Blood Elf analog. Humans are a good Orc analog because like the Orcs by and large they are decent and some of them are agreeable, and some are not. Draenei and Tauren are analogs in that they are by and large passive, shamanistic minority civilizations (with similar histories, insofar as they were both nearly made extinct while isolated from the rest of the world).

The faction differences come mainly by way of Dwarves and Gnomes versus Forsaken and Trolls. Dwarves and Gnomes are by and large inwardly focused “live and let live” types, interested in learning their history, archaeology, technology, and protecting/recapturing their homes. Forsaken are diabolically sinister, and trolls are antagonistic warmongers.

So if you figure Night Elves equate to Blood Elves, and Orcs equate to Humans, Draenei equate to Tauren- what remains are two by and large “malevolent” leaning races in Horde, and two by and large “good” or at least “passive” races in alliance.

Horde players will try and convince you “teh alliance are Evils more than horedz!!!1!!”, but I think that the average player would say the factions are at least equally good/evil, if not skewed somewhat toward the Horde being more antagonistic and/or sinister.

It would be interesting to throw a vote up on it.

Quoted for Truth. EDIT: Sorry forgot to add except for the bit about the trolls.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-09, 08:53 PM
The guy that made the last post in the 3rd page has made my reply to Arlanthe's post.

Crazy Owl's made a true point, too. The good ones of the Night Elves are Tyrande and Malfurion, who is stuck in the Emerald Dream (Gotta be talking to Ysera, drinking tea...).

Neriana also made a point.

About the orcs, well, blame Sargeras. He was the one who got corrupted, then corrupted the Eredar, who corrupted the all-peaceful Orcs in Draenor. The Draenei got slaughtered when the corrupted orcs attacked 'em, in the planet from which they did not originate. It's all the Twisting Nether's fault.

Humans, on the other side, barely hang in trying to kill the recently-purified orcs, while they are slaughtered by the Scourge. The Forsaken, yes, they are evil, because they were brutally slain when alive, by the charismatic Prince Arthas, who was easily corrupted. Oh, wait, he was human ! Then again, it was Ner'zhul's fault, a former orcs who was corrupted, too. Again, blame the demons in the Twisting Nether.

The Tauren are good. They were battling the Centaur, who aren't precisely evil. Just like Arlanthe said, it's all about survival. The Draenei aren't notoriously good, though, at least until now. What did they do? They escaped their homeworld (Hmm... Sounds like Protoss), landed on Draenor, got beaten a lot, then crashed their beautiful starship in Azeroth. Joining the Alliance was good? No. It's was about survival. Their survival.

The Night Elves aren't all morons like Staghelm. They're like forest humans, or so. Just remember the "disagreements" of Tyrande with the Warden, Maiev.

And also take it that the Forsaken isn't exactly part of the Horde, the way Orcs, Taurens and Trolls are. They're more like allies, but not part of the same "superpower".

Arlanthe
2007-02-10, 03:41 AM
*laughs*

...Oh. Wait. You're actually not joking.

You can express your valid and welcome opinion, and/or provide evidence for a point of view without being patronizing.

TheChris
2007-02-10, 03:49 AM
The thing about good and evil often miss the point in the grand scheme of things. As you will find out later in the game, especially with the Blood Elves. The true evil is the scourge. Actually there is a very good discussion about this over on Something Awful (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2311836). I'd summarize it but it's long, I'm a bit tired and I'd have to use a lot of spoiler tags. There are spoilers in that thread but they're all in spoiler tags. If you're interested in the dark side of Silvermoon, you should check it out. Towards the bottom of the first page is kind of a =( moment but if you check it out you'll understand.

For those of you who don't know, SA doesn't necessarily have the same rules about profanity and whatnot so if this might offend you....you've been warned.

Tengu
2007-02-10, 09:00 AM
They poisoned their own forests in a mad quest to regain their immortality. Have you talked to Fandral Staghelm, their archdruid? Whenever a Horde group manages to kill him, even the Alliance cheers because he's such a greedy, selfish jerk.
Every time someone considers Staghelm a horrible leader because he's an arrogant, pompous ass, Blizzard laughs in glee at another fool easily manipulated. Check the quests to open the gates of Ahn'Qiraj to see the second side of him.
On the other hand, Tyrande is widely popular, despite being a much worse leader. Probably because most people use another body part than their heads when thinking about her.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-10, 12:30 PM
Tengu, what the cookie are you suggesting?! I am only taking into consideration the game facts here, not the appearance of the characters.

Kish
2007-02-10, 01:01 PM
You can express your valid and welcome opinion, and/or provide evidence for a point of view without being patronizing.I did. You completely ignored that post. You look at the incredibly racist humans in World of Warcraft and see "basically decent", at the gnomes who destroyed their own city and see "harmless and passive," at the dwarves who tear up Mulgore and Alterac Valley and see "inwardly focused live and let live types," well, I tried presenting you with logical counterarguments, and you ignored them and posted your unaltered opinion once again. I can't pretend those descriptions don't make me laugh, because they're hilarious. The game you're playing is manifestly not the game I'm playing. (And no, it's not because we're playing different sides. I play both; I don't know whether you do or not.)

Ahn'Qiraj spoilers.

You're right, Tengu. Staghelm isn't a bad leader because he's an arrogant, pompous ass. He's a bad leader because, as Ahn'Qiraj makes clear, he's an actual villian. Ahn'Qiraj does not make him a good guy. Even the Alliance has to treat him as an enemy to be avoided in the quests there. What Ahn'Qiraj does is explain why he became evil and show you his point of view. Not a Xykonesque cardboard cutout villain=/=not a villian. Yes, what happened to his son was very sad. It explains his actions, it does not justify them. "You're not responsible for the people you've hurt because you were hurt yourself first" isn't valid in the real world and it's sure not valid in WoW.

Tengu
2007-02-10, 01:33 PM
Tengu, what the cookie are you suggesting?! I am only taking into consideration the game facts here, not the appearance of the characters.

My post was unclear. I didn't mean anyone on these forums when I was writing my post. But rhe majority of the WoW players population (those that give a damn about the lore, at least) think along the lines of "I like Tyrande because she is so hawt!!1", without taking many of her mistakes under consideration.



Ahn'Qiraj spoilers.

You're right, Tengu. Staghelm isn't a bad leader because he's an arrogant, pompous ass. He's a bad leader because, as Ahn'Qiraj makes clear, he's an actual villian. Ahn'Qiraj does not make him a good guy. Even the Alliance has to treat him as an enemy to be avoided in the quests there. What Ahn'Qiraj does is explain why he became evil and show you his point of view. Not a Xykonesque cardboard cutout villain=/=not a villian.

What's so villainous about uniting the Kaldorei and gathering a huge army in order to fight a much greater and more dangerous foe?

Kish
2007-02-10, 01:55 PM
What's so villainous about uniting the Kaldorei and gathering a huge army in order to fight a much greater and more dangerous foe?
Oh, I see. You haven't completed the Temple of Ahn'Qiraj and killed C'Thun. That being the case, I'd advise you not to click on this spoiler, as it will actually ruin a major plot twist for you. Just accept that some deluded people on the forum think Staghelm is a villain for some mysterious reason.
Staghelm didn't gather an army to defeat the Qiraji. He gathered an army to tear down the Scarab Wall, because C'Thun whispered to him, promising his son's life back if he'd release the Qiraji from their prison. He saw a weakness in Staghelm so long ago, yes. But not merely that killing his son in front of him would demoralize him in the short-term--that it would grant him a means to turn Staghelm into his pawn whenever he needed to.

Tengu
2007-02-10, 02:06 PM
Interesting. Didn't know that, and haven't read about it anywhere or from anyone before.

Though still,
releasing Illidan practically on a whim
makes me consider Tyrande a worse leader. Even before The Frozen Throne, which shows the broader side-effects of this, I said to myself "That won't possibly end good at all".

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-10, 04:14 PM
O.o really now, I never made it into the depths of Ahn'Qiraj, quest-wise, but that was really interesting to know. Notice that I only said Staghelm was a moron, and that is because he was the one responsible for creating Teldrassil, which will eventually be corrupted. (It was he, wasn't he?)

About Tyrande freeing Illidan, that was a good choice. The Night Elves would be wiped out before the Mount Hyjal battle if not for Illidan. That didn't end totally good, I agree. Hmmm... Remember when Arthas slew Illidan near Icecrown? What if Illidan had won the battle? Would he become the Lich King?

Arlanthe
2007-02-10, 05:23 PM
I did. You completely ignored that post. You look at the incredibly racist humans in World of Warcraft and see "basically decent", at the gnomes who destroyed their own city and see "harmless and passive," at the dwarves who tear up Mulgore and Alterac Valley and see "inwardly focused live and let live types," well, I tried presenting you with logical counterarguments, and you ignored them and posted your unaltered opinion once again. I can't pretend those descriptions don't make me laugh, because they're hilarious. The game you're playing is manifestly not the game I'm playing. (And no, it's not because we're playing different sides. I play both; I don't know whether you do or not.)


I understand your point, and it is certaonly valid. But it goes both ways.

Humans portrayed as racist are the exception, not the rule. You can point out several "kill those filthy orcs" quests, but the "filthy orcs" they refer to are also enemies of Thrall's tribe too. Just like humans are also the enemies of humans. And trolls of trolls. In fact there are many humans that go through pains to make this clear (the last one I came across was that fellow in EPL who outright says no one had ever badmouth a Hordeling simply for their race), another fellow in Cenarion faction also I remember. Sure there are some racist humans- but I don't see how it is institutionalized in any way, and there plenty of racist Horde to keep the balance. Personally, it seems lie there are a lot of palces where the developers make a point of demonstrating there is comeraderie and common goals between the two factions.

The Gnomes are definitely live and let live, and basically ONE rebel Gnome messed up their entire city and civilization. It definitely seems they are passive- look at their quests. Their entire quest portfolio is "dang we need our city back" or "let's build something cool", not at all offensive toward the Horde. They seem to completely ignore the Horde. They aren't all evil because one psychotic Gnome took over their city. That would be like saying all Darkspear are evil because that one Z troll took a bunch of evil Darkspear and turned on Sen Jin's crew, taking that island. Same deal.

Alterac Valley being "tore up" by the Dwarves is no different than Ashenvale being leveled by the Orcs. Same deal. I still hold the Dwarves are inwardly focused- their quests largely focus on retriving artifacts that could explain their past, or fighting non-Horde imminent threats. Like the Dark Iron Dwarves and belligerent trog groups. Dwarves, like gnomes, rarely have quests that involve horde at all.

I've conceded that the Night Elves are pretty sinister, and agree with the xenophobic, arrogant, selfish aspects. I know the story as well.

Sure, we could both sit here all day and pick quests and stories from each faction about how "horde guy X was evil, and alliance guy Y is evil", and pick quests that don't shed a good light on either faction. That's largely balanced- I just don't think it is in WoW story content. More concicely put, I feel that the institutional structure of the game slants toward Horde quests and sub-interests as being somewhat more sinister, but that's just my opinion feuled largely by the Blood Elf and Forsaken factions.

You don't need ad hominems. You obviously know the story and are capable of making strong points, which is what debate is about. I'm sorry if you feel I am ignoring your posts, that is not my intent and I assure you I read and consider them. I still hold my views.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-10, 08:11 PM
Hmm, now I feel ignored.

Kish
2007-02-11, 02:25 AM
(the last one I came across was that fellow in EPL who outright says no one had ever badmouth a Hordeling simply for their race)

Your phrasing makes it a little hard to understand what you mean here. If you mean "had better," as in in front of him, you're quite right. If you mean what you literally wrote--no, I guarantee you Tirion Fordring, the former magistrate of Stratholme who was stripped of his position, exiled from the Alliance, and cast out of the Knights of the Silver Hand for objecting to an orc who had spared his life earlier being imprisoned and whipped senseless (with execution planned later, though Thrall showed up before they got to that point) for being an orc does not say that he's never seen any racist members of the Alliance.


, another fellow in Cenarion faction also I remember.
I don't imagine we'll ever agree on the relative morality of the WoW factions, but might I suggest your case for the virtue of the Alliance would look stronger if you used examples that actually belonged to the Alliance? All the nonracist humans you know are explicitly not members of the Alliance? If I'd realized that, I would certainly have brought it up as a point supporting me.


The Gnomes are definitely live and let live, and basically ONE rebel Gnome messed up their entire city and civilization.
Mekgineer Thermaplugg was the only one who realized what the result of irradiating the city would be and wanted it to happen anyway. He wasn't the only gnome to irradiate the city; High Tinker Mekkatorque himself gave the order. I actually see constructing and using something that destroys your city without knowing what you're doing as worse than deliberately destroying it, in terms of "Which would make a worse neighbor?" Do you truly not see any parallels between gnomish carelessly destructive uses of technology and old elven uses of the Well of Eternity?


Alterac Valley being "tore up" by the Dwarves is no different than Ashenvale being leveled by the Orcs.
Really? No difference between "We must completely eradicate all the orcs in the valley where they've been living peacefully since they first came to Azeroth so we can dig it up" and "we have a right to the only source of lumber on the continent despite the territorial claims of the night elves"? The Alliance states that the Horde means to clear-cut the forest. The Horde states that they need lumber (as every race but the night elves does...) and have no other intentions in the Ashenvale Woods, no desire to clear away the forest or to take more lumber than they need. On the other side, the Alliance states that "taking, culling, and turning" the entire Alterac Valley is a "sovereign and territorial imperative" to Ironforge, while the Horde states that the Stormpike Guard means to kill all of the Frostwolf Clan so they can take their land.

You see these as the same? As comparable at all? I sure don't.


Same deal. I still hold the Dwarves are inwardly focused- their quests largely focus on retriving artifacts that could explain their past, or fighting non-Horde imminent threats. Like the Dark Iron Dwarves and belligerent trog groups. Dwarves, like gnomes, rarely have quests that involve horde at all.
But tauren do have quests that involve dwarves. Not enemies to Ironforge, either. Fine, upstanding, green-to-the-Alliance members of the Explorers' League, who carry letters that speak casually of needing to "drive away" (slaughter en masse) "bull-men" who got in the way of their diggings. If they're inwardly focused, why are there so many of them in Mulgore and the Barrens? (If you want to contend that the dwarves are an analogue to the trolls, perhaps you have examples of groups of organized groups of NPC Darkspear aggressors in Dun Morogh, Elwynn Forest, Westfall? Okay, not Elwynn Forest, no self-respecting Horde member would stay that close to Goldshire.)

And the Horde has quests that are, in so many words, "Go kill the demon-worshiping orcs in Desolace before the Alliance sees them and gets the wrong idea about us." And, "Go rescue the dwarf princess from the Dark Irons as a diplomatic gesture to Ironforge." And even, "Onyxia tried to control Stormwind. The Black Dragonflight is much worse to have in control of Stormwind than the humans. Go kill her." I don't claim to have done every single Alliance quest--maybe you have examples I missed, of Alliance quests which are about either, "Make us look good to the Horde" or outright "Be good neighbors and help the Horde"? Or any Alliance quests in which the quest-giver doesn't assume that the Alliance's claim on the moral high ground over the Horde is total and inherent? If you can name any, you will manage to surprise me a great deal, and I'll admit it.

There's another point that kind of interests me, actually. You say the tauren are the best analogue to the draenei, and the blood elves (not the Forsaken, which would be my pick if I had to make one--they both have poisoned lands, at least) to the night elves. That would mean that before the expansion, the tauren had no Alliance analogue, and the night elves had no Horde analogue. This is fine with me, as I don't really see the races as meant to be analogous to each other, but I'm curious about where it leaves your metaphor. I can't see you saying the tauren, who you agree are neutral at worst, were analogous to the night elves, who you agree are pretty thoroughly bad. Was the Horde the better faction before the expansion came out, as you see it, then?



Sure, we could both sit here all day and pick quests and stories from each faction about how "horde guy X was evil, and alliance guy Y is evil", and pick quests that don't shed a good light on either faction. That's largely balanced- I just don't think it is in WoW story content.
And as I said, neither do I, only in the opposite direction from you. The Horde sometimes seems inconsistently written (why exactly is a warlock from Jaedenar allowed to stay at Sun Rock Retreat?), and sometimes stupidly written (why do the Forsaken announce their plans for a new plague to every tauren druid who wanders by Tarren Mill?) [meaning Blizzard's writers are making no sense, not just that the character in question seems unintelligent]. Sometimes, a Horde member leaves me--as playing Alliance or Horde--with the feeling, "You're an evil bastard who needs killing." Only Alliance members (like the aforementioned tauren-slaughtering Explorers' League member) leave me with the feeling, "Your culture is morally bankrupt."

The Blood Elves have a lot of darkness in them. It makes them very interesting to me as a player. That's not the same as being evil, though. In a way, they're very much like the Forsaken, but while the Forsaken are permanently frozen in a morally and logically insupportable position, attempting (and not succeeding, since the game doesn't end) to eradicate all life on Azeroth, the blood elves are designed to evolve, and to be, when they reach level 70, ultimately against the Burning Legion.

I certainly won't argue that the flavor text paints the draenei as pure good and throws the blood elves in a dark and sinister light. And I probably won't argue over the importance of the flavor text, because it's too subjective a question. I'll always choke on statements like "the humans are overall decent" or "the dwarves are inwardly focused" or "the blood elves serve demons," though.

Arlanthe
2007-02-11, 05:20 AM
I guarantee you Tirion Fordring, the former magistrate of Stratholme who was stripped of his position, exiled from the Alliance, and cast out of the Knights...

Touché.


I actually see constructing and using something that destroys your city without knowing what you're doing as worse than deliberately destroying it

I don't. (That picture is as the human race really, only gnomes didn't use it against other people on purpose). They lived peacefully for aeons before that event, and will when they recapture the city.


The Horde states that they need lumber (as every race but the night elves does...) and have no other intentions in the Ashenvale Woods, no desire to clear away the forest or to take more lumber than they need.

I dunno, from the alliance side of things both the amount of damage they have done, as well as their aggression while doing it seems to belie that. Chicken and egg on the aggression yes, but it is still owned by the Night Elves, and the Orcs are massively intruding and doing more damage than they claim.


On the other side, the Alliance states that "taking, culling, and turning" the entire Alterac Valley is a "sovereign and territorial imperative" to Ironforge, while the Horde states that the Stormpike Guard means to kill all of the Frostwolf Clan so they can take their land.

I've previously admitted the onus of the problem here in on the Dwarves, as the invasion of the forest is the responsibility of the orcs. Note the Defilers in the Horde are responsible for the invasion of Arathi Basin, but are backed by the Horde. Another notch against the Horde


(If you want to contend that the dwarves are an analogue to the trolls, perhaps you have examples of groups of organized groups of NPC Darkspear aggressors in Dun Morogh, Elwynn Forest, Westfall? Okay, not Elwynn Forest, no self-respecting Horde member would stay that close to Goldshire.)

Great point. It does seem there are more active alliance antagonizers than Horde (but there are several Horde quests that are antagonistic as well). But I concede that that part is slanted toward the alliance.


Was the Horde the better faction before the expansion came out, as you see it, then?

Almost. But my main problem with the Hordes morality is the Forsaken. This is still a huge problem for all of the Horde, and that there are "connecting" quests that direct Tauren and Orcs and Trolls to "help" the Forsaken, even in their nefarious plans. In my opinion, Thrall only accepted the Forsaken into the Horde out of safety and for another sword arm. A very morally bankrupt decision, imo. This decision (and the Horde-directed imperitives to help them in their questionable plans) to maintain relations represents a significant moral failing to me. Yes Thrall is reminded of the Orc corruption in the Forsaken, but the Forsaken have not had the revelation the Orcs did.


You're an evil bastard who needs killing." Only Alliance members (like the aforementioned tauren-slaughtering Explorers' League member) leave me with the feeling, "Your culture is morally bankrupt."

See above point. There are many Horde quests that make my stomach turn. You see the Horde as conciliatory- I see them as manipulative (aside from the kill diplomatic type quests). They've already proven they'll take anyone in (and help whatever their goals are) to support their ends, which regardless of their ultimate desire to be left alone, places them in conflict with not only the alliance but their presumed live and let live values. I see this as the case somewhat with the Blood Elves, and definitely the Forsaken.

It's kind of like Americans sending money to Central American drug lords to fight the Communists. The Americans and Communists weren't nice to eachother, but that doesn't justify supporting dictators and heinous policy in Central AMerica to support them.

You make a lot of good points, and I'll admit I have reconsidered some things, including viewing the humans as more vile for their racism. I still can't get over a lot of what the Horde does to manipulate and meet their goals, though. Maybe the ethical differneces are all just value judgements in the end. *shrug* You make your case well.

Thor: Sorry for ingoring you. have no idea if Illidan would have become the Lich King. I think his will has always been much higher than Arthas, so I don't think so.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-11, 02:32 PM
Consider, though, that when WoW was made, the forsaken were thrust in the horde so there would be an equal number of races, as the scourge joining the horde wouldn't make sense. "There were simply no other major race to put on the horde", it's what they thought, I presume.

Excluding the new races, the night elves and the forsaken, which is more "good" in your viewpoint?

Arlanthe
2007-02-12, 12:44 AM
Consider, though, that when WoW was made, the forsaken were thrust in the horde so there would be an equal number of races, as the scourge joining the horde wouldn't make sense. "There were simply no other major race to put on the horde", it's what they thought, I presume.

Excluding the new races, the night elves and the forsaken, which is more "good" in your viewpoint?

Then it starts to lean as Horde being more good, because you take out the angel subduing sinister Blood Elves, the Honorable Draenei- and while I view Night Elves and Forsaken as both evil, the Forsaken are considerably and more directly evil and if you take them out of the picture, the slider goes a lot more toward "good" for the Horde.

But you can't cherry pick races, in WoW a large part of the context of the Horde being sinister is their tolerance and assistance of the Forsaken, as well as their nefarious plans.

You could take out the new races, the Night Elves and the Tauren in another cherry picked arrangement and it gets even worse for the Horde.

Kish
2007-02-12, 06:31 PM
When the Forsaken split from the Scourge, neither the Horde nor the Alliance knew anything about them except that they were renegade undead. The Horde gave them membership, though not complete trust; the Alliance decided that all undead were monsters to be exterminated without mercy.

Do you agree with the Alliance, then? Even about those Forsaken who are manifestly good, like Leonid Bartholomew the Revered? (Note, in order not to appear hypocritical, that I am not claiming a member of the Argent Dawn indicates anything about the Horde. What he proves is that the Forsaken can sometimes be good.)

The Horde's decision was wrong in that most of those they put limited trust in turned out not to deserve any. The Royal Apothecary Society since set out to eradicate all life on Azeroth, though the trolls, orcs, tauren, and now blood elves officially don't know about this (even though the apothecary in Tarren Mill will actually tell anyone he can talk to that Sylvanas wants a New Plague, an example of sloppy writing. A Forsaken apothecary in the Ghostlands, who is meant to be talked to by blood elves and not just by Forsaken, claims to be working on a cure for the Scourge plague--much better writing). The Alliance's decision was wrong in that ordering the extermination of every single member of an intelligent race plumbs the darkest depths of what real-world humans have proven themselves capable of. Not every Forsaken is evil, so their premise was wrong. But even if they had, by sheer luck, been right that those they decided to annihilate were all pure evil, they would still have been horrifically wrong to make that decision based on the little evidence they had.

Blizzard's world doesn't actually change, except for game events that do things like add new dungeons. Anduin Wrynn is forever eight years old. The other half of Silvermoon will never be reclaimed. The Forsaken forever work on a project which will neither succeed nor be publically revealed. However, both the Alliance and the Horde (except, for obvious reasons, Forsaken) have quests where people send them to investigate what the Forsaken are up to, which leads to them discovering evidence of the New Plague. This makes very little playing difference to the Alliance, beyond worsening their relations with the Horde further. However, if Blizzard's world ever unfroze and things started actually changing, there are only two real possibilities for the Horde: Turning against all the Forsaken, or there being a split in the Forsaken themselves, with some remaining with the Horde while Sylvanas and those who were supporters of the New Plague become enemies to the Horde. Either way, because Thrall believes in giving everyone a chance, the Horde would be able to say they turned against the Forsaken for the right reason. Something the Alliance can never say, and will never understand the value of being able to say.



I don't. (That picture is as the human race really, only gnomes didn't use it against other people on purpose). They lived peacefully for aeons before that event, and will when they recapture the city.

What you quoted me saying there really does lose some meaningful content without the rest of the sentence, but I gather that the answer to my question is no, you don't see any parallels between gnomish technology and the Well of Eternity.

Note the Defilers in the Horde are responsible for the invasion of Arathi Basin, but are backed by the Horde. Another notch against the Horde What? No. Arathi Basin was once the cradle of human civilization--before humanity split into the seven kingdoms which were to form the Alliance. The Forsaken have as much claim on it as living humans by any logic except the Alliance's statement that the Forsaken have no rights at all, not even the right to exist, which is not a viewpoint the Forsaken can reasonably be expected to respect. Both the Alliance and the Horde voluntarily cast the conflict in Arathi Basin as purely over resources.


and that there are "connecting" quests that direct Tauren and Orcs and Trolls to "help" the Forsaken, even in their nefarious plans.
Really, where? I've never seen anything like that--and I've played for quite a while now.


See above point. There are many Horde quests that make my stomach turn. You see the Horde as conciliatory- I see them as manipulative (aside from the kill diplomatic type quests).
Really, now. It is a fact that the Horde has quests which amount to "Help the Alliance." It is a fact that the Alliance has nothing mirroring that in any way. "Why" is not a question of fact, but if I had the kind of license to ascribe negative motivations to overtly good actions that you're claiming here, I could paint the Alliance as worse than the Scourge if I wanted.


They've already proven they'll take anyone in (and help whatever their goals are) to support their ends,
Really? That might be of interest to Blacklash and Hematus. Or the forest trolls.

(Blacklash and Hematus are two black dragons. The Horde quest to kill them states that the Horde knows of their presence because the old demon-serving Horde was allied with Deathwing, and now, to reclaim the Horde's honor, "Our depraved former allies must be silenced." The quests to kill forest trolls, on the other hand, state that it was a dark day in Horde history when the old Horde took the vicious forest trolls in, both drawing a clear distinction between the forest trolls and the Darkspears and establishing the forest trolls as too evil to be welcome in the new Horde.)

They've proven that they will not take just anyone in. I tend to agree--well, I shouldn't actually say agree, as this is so far from what you said--that Thrall would give a chance to anyone, undead, forest troll, or black dragon, who could believably claim to have the ability and the desire to be good, and that the leaders of the Alliance would not (indeed, the humans of the Alliance demonstrated many times before the rise of the new Horde that they had no interest in interacting on a nonviolent basis with even the most peaceful orc). This is a necessary condition for a group to be anything but evil, in my eyes. Genocide which ignores the morality of individual members of the group to be slaughtered is evil no matter what pretty or self-righteous terms the Alliance wraps it in.


You make a lot of good points, and I'll admit I have reconsidered some things, including viewing the humans as more vile for their racism.
Debate does a lot to clarify thoughts, I've found. I can honestly say I feel exactly the same way--although somehow I don't imagine you meant for my already-low opinion of the Alliance to drop dramatically the way it did while I was composing this post, and lodge somewhere near the center of the world. :smallwink:

Reinforcements
2007-02-12, 11:55 PM
Kish - Maybe I missed it, but I've never seen this hard line that the Alliance has officially decided that, given the chance, they would kill the entirety of the Forsaken. I really don't see many of the Alliance leaders taking that attitude - especially Bolvar Fordragon, Prophet Velen and High Tinker Mekkatorque (although with him I mostly just think he wouldn't really care).

Spelluck
2007-02-13, 05:07 AM
>>Kish - Maybe I missed it, but I've never seen this hard line that the Alliance has officially decided that, given the chance, they would kill the entirety of the Forsaken. I really don't see many of the Alliance leaders taking that attitude - especially Bolvar Fordragon, Prophet Velen and High Tinker Mekkatorque (although with him I mostly just think he wouldn't really care).

I believe that is the difference between the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade. IIRC, the story somehow goes that the Alliance felt that the Scarlet Crusade was too fanatical about killing anything undead/scourge-like. Argent Dawn on the other hand, seem to take a more informed approach.

Second I would like to point out is the Foresaken laborer's near Dalaran in the Hillsbrad foothills. These NPCs are neutral to alliance, which leads me to ask if the Alliance was under the impression of "UD evi1,mus pwn th3m a||!!!11" why they have forsaken laborer's working for one of the Arch Mages.

Lastly... I'm going to start attempting to create an Order of the Stick guild on the Sprinebreaker server. I'll simply test the knowledge of the charter. Your all welcome to whisper to my main toon Loinne to see about getting in, even if your level 1.

Arlanthe
2007-02-13, 06:44 AM
Kish- if your low opinion of the Alliance dropped any lower, it can only be an emotional reaction, because I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

No, I don't see the Gnomes as a parallel to the well.

1) Where does the Alliance say the Forsaken do not have the right to exist? 2) Where do they say that the Forsaken have no rights at all to it?

I mean, these things could exist, but from the Horde AB quest text, it sounds to me like no one had claim, and the Horde simply is attacking the Alliance because they don't want them nearby... the Alliance wants to want to build their presence there up by gathering resources, (that story wise make no sense, but whatever). The Horde, fearing more Alliance nearby- start a conflict. The Horde quest text- “As you no doubt have heard, the League of Arathor is sending large numbers of troops into Arathi Basin. Eager for food and supplies, these Alliance fools are intent to take and control the rich resources there. We must show them that Arathi will never again be a home for humans!” Seems antagonistic to me when they are only gathering resources

About humans being racist: some yes, but also no. Most of the “racism” humans exhibit is in fact prejudice informed by years of war inflicted on them by the Orcs and Trolls, so it’s hard for them to forgive and forget decades of unprovoked antagonism and slaughter in four years. This “trolls and orcs are peaceful” thing is relatively new, and mistrust runs deep- especially among people whose families and friends were butchered by years of war with them. Also, it was the Humans that formed the Alliance and reached out to other Alliance races. Their racial “Diplomacy” hints that they can and do try to get along with others. Even in the Horde “Alliance Relations” quest line, Thrall credits his learning of “diplomacy” “during my time with the humans”. Also, the “genocide” accusation is pretty thin, since the Orcs and Trolls are still alive, and efforts by rogue humans to maintain war with them were crushed by other Alliance humans. "Genocide" is a false term to apply to a kingdom that instead of slaughtering all of the demon-driven bloodthirsty warmongers, instead mercifully put them in internment camps. That isn't genocide.

One other thing I kind of wanted to discuss is that aside from “events”, there are some Blizzard-installed thematic problems for the Horde as well.

The Darkspear Trolls are explicitly described to “hate all other races” (definitely more racist than humans) in their intro movie, and there are plenty of times this is reinforced in quest text. They have jokes about eating members of the Alliance, etc (pretty twisted). They still have wicked witch doctors and head shrinkers, like that witch doctor Ferelas who killed a Dwarf “wandering in the forest” and shrunk his head- all so he could get some herbs from an Orc in Org. I know there are several more “sinister troll witch doctor” type quests, but it’s hard to plumb the depths of last years quests. Suffice to say that while I agree they are reformed and by and large passive, there is plenty of racism and deviousness among them.

The Orcs have their problems too- the quest to kill Outrunners (scouts- not even antagonists) in Ashenvale is the analog of Dwarves causing problems in Mulgore. And they have their own internal problems with the traitors within the Orc ranks- just as the Humans do with Defias. They both have their deviant and corrupt splinters, as well as antagonists, and you can’t separate them. Thematically I still can't help but see them as similar to humans.

Even the Tauren have Grimtotem (though admittedly the Tauren do not suffer from the “thematic” negative problems the other Horde races do, so moot point for that part of the discussion).

The Blood Elves are pretty twisted. Come on- aside from the whole angel subjugation to steal the light, and unprovoked antagonism toward the Draenei, and obsessed do-anything-for magic addiction, they have a lot of institutional problems- leper gnome tailoring sweatshop in Silvermoon, poisoning animals to kill Lost Ones in the Swamp of Sorrows- they have more than enough messed up quests even later in the game. Defiling Uthers tomb? That doesn’t even serve a tactical purpose, it’s just childish and cruel! (And when you click on them they say “stay the course”. Nuff said.) Those things have nothing to do with “being abandoned by the Alliance”. The entire Blood Elf theme is “the end justifies the means”, which is an open door to villainy.

Same with the Forsaken, but worse. They also “hate all living things” as directly described- they are not only racist, but lifeist as well! And they show it. (The Horde sending orcs and trolls to help the Forsaken quest is the low level “link” quests that send the Horde on the Zeppelin to Silverpine to connect with the undercity to give guards weapons or something. I believe there are two such quests. And minutes later you’re helping them torture and kill alliance prisoners)

Look, all of the races have flaws (except the Tauren, really). I've all along tried to tie analogies of Alliance X is similar to Horde Y- because there are analogies. I've admitted the Night Elves are as twisted as the blood elves (albeit in different ways). There are some things Allaicne races do that Horde do not, and vice versa.

But I can't help but feel you don't wantto like the Alliance. You seem to dislike them not because of their flaws, which sum up to at least similar to the Horde, but- I don't know. You just seem to want to hate them.

One last WoW forum poster with food for thought:
Races are not good or evil. Members of those races choose good or evil.

MaxKaladin
2007-02-13, 11:12 AM
"we have a right to the only source of lumber on the continent despite the territorial claims of the night elves"? Um, I'm pretty sure Ashenvale isn't the only source of timber on the continent. They could also get timber in Stonetalon (just ask the Goblins that are clearcutting there), Ferlas or Azshara. Ashenvale may be the most convenient timber, but it's not the only source.

ThorWarriorX
2007-02-13, 05:32 PM
MaxKaladin, if Stormtalon Mountains' forests were harvested by the Horde, it wouldjust end with the life there. Ever saw what those rogue goblins do there?


Sheesh, I must admit -- if I was to try to enter your (Kish and Arlanthe) conversation, I think I'd need to be invited. Both of you make really good points, but I must say I'm a Horde guy. I hate humans. I hate the Alliance.

That being said, this:
One last WoW forum poster with food for thought:
Races are not good or evil. Members of those races choose good or evil.

is pretty much a basic. The Defias Brotherhood of the humans, the Grimtotem Clan of the Taurens, the Black Iron Dwarves, the Blackrock Orcs, the Searing Blade, the Syndicate, the Scarlet Crusade, the Royal Apothecary Society...

Endless bad groups.

It comes, then, that every race has reasons to do many evil or good things. That's why I despise the Draenei -- They have nothing to do with the conflicts ! Blood elves ARE evil in the game, but look at them in The Frozen Throne: They were trying to survive. It is Illidan's fault that the Blood Elves who went to Outland became so evil. In my opinion, the Blood elves who remained in Azeroth should have been defending and rebuilding Silvermoon, nothing else.

And I see a parallel between the Night Elves' Well of Eternity and the Gnomes' technology: The Night Elves overused it, the Gnomes over used it. Kaboom.

Kish
2007-02-13, 07:38 PM
1) Where does the Alliance say the Forsaken do not have the right to exist? 2) Where do they say that the Forsaken have no rights at all to it?

Never done the Blightcaller quest chain, then? If one grants the Forsaken the right to exist, then killing the Blightcaller is murder, pure and simple. Listen to Bolvar, the human racial leader, rant about the offense to order caused by Nathanos being Forsaken. (Not that he killed the spies Bolvar had sent to find him. That he exists as a Forsaken, and is directing the Horde's campaign against the Scourge--disrupting said campaign being the low point of Bolvar's career, which is quite something when you consider the single other notable act of Bolvar's career.)


the Alliance wants to want to build their presence there up by gathering resources, (that story wise make no sense, but whatever). The Horde, fearing more Alliance nearby- start a conflict. The Horde quest text- “As you no doubt have heard, the League of Arathor is sending large numbers of troops into Arathi Basin. Eager for food and supplies, these Alliance fools are intent to take and control the rich resources there. We must show them that Arathi will never again be a home for humans!” Seems antagonistic to me when they are only gathering resources

Yeah, the Alliance sends troops for peaceful resource gathering, and "control" just means they take those resources the Horde doesn't get to first. And this fits with what the Alliance has to say about their actions in Arathi Basin so well...


The Darkspear Trolls are explicitly described to “hate all other races” (definitely more racist than humans) in their intro movie,

Actually, it says the jungle trolls hate all other races. The WoW website expands:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/shared/wow-com/images/smallcaps/plain/t.gifhe vicious Jungle Trolls, who populate the numerous islands of the South Seas, are renowned for their cruelty and dark mysticism. Barbarous and superstitious, the wily Trolls carry a seething hatred for all other races. One tribe, however, was forced to overcome its prejudices when it encountered the Orc Warchief, Thrall, and his mighty Horde. The Trolls of the Darkspear tribe, long since exiled from their ancestral lands in Stranglethorn Vale, were nearly destroyed by a band of aquatic Murlocs, but Thrall and the Horde managed to save them. In return the grateful Trolls swore an oath of eternal allegiance to the Horde.
Led by the cunning Shadow Hunter, Vol'jin, the Darkspear Trolls now make their home in Durotar along with their Orcish allies. Their village, named after their fallen tribal elder, Sen'jin, lies along the eastern coast of the harsh, rocky land. The Darkspear tribe also occupies tracts within the nearby jungles of the Echo Isles.
As part of the Horde, the Trolls have extended their loyalty to the mighty Tauren, but they have little trust for the manipulative Forsaken, whom they believe will visit only misery and strife upon their allies.



But I can't help but feel you don't wantto like the Alliance.

As I see you talk about mercifully putting people in internment camps, equate the Ashenvale Woods with Mulgore, and make claims which the game doesn't support, I can't help but feel that you really, really don't want to like the Horde. Actually, I tried very hard, for a long time, to see the Alliance and Horde as morally equal. Relatively recently, I came to the conclusion that one is distinctly more evil than the other. I don't like the Alliance, now, for the same reason I don't like Nale.


One last WoW forum poster with food for thought:
Races are not good or evil. Members of those races choose good or evil.
This is still quite a change from the generalizations you started out making about the blood elves, but the fact is, you're still generalizing about them ("The Blood Elves are pretty twisted") in the same post you conclude with this. So do you object to generalizing about races, or to generalizing about the races you like? I concede that the Horde's new race is thematically dark and sinister, albeit complex, nuanced, and ultimately opposed to the Burning Legion, and the Alliance's new race thematically appears to be* officially designated as pure good. From where I'm sitting, that's all to the Horde's advantage in terms of "interesting to play," but if you (the general you, not Arlanthe in particular) want to play a Disney character, more power to you.

*Appears to be, because I still haven't been able to bring myself to play a draenei at all, or even to have my Alliance characters do any of their quests, so I admit up-front I have no firsthand information about them from their perspective. They're about as appealing to me as the idea of eating raw white sugar by the spoonful.

neriana
2007-02-13, 07:40 PM
It comes, then, that every race has reasons to do many evil or good things. That's why I despise the Draenei -- They have nothing to do with the conflicts ! Blood elves ARE evil in the game, but look at them in The Frozen Throne: They were trying to survive. It is Illidan's fault that the Blood Elves who went to Outland became so evil. In my opinion, the Blood elves who remained in Azeroth should have been defending and rebuilding Silvermoon, nothing else.

Draenei are silly. They're smurf space paladins. Their city is also a nightmare; it's overly huge and pinky purple with no detail. However, since I see most of them as basically insane, it's kind of fun to play one. Especially because my particular draenei is a shadow priest who really is an eredar: an evil demon through and through. However, they still have that Alliance feel, and that's not nearly as interesting as the Horde to me.

Blood elves as a whole are not evil. There's an interesting political tension between the farstriders/rangers, who don't like that the priests and paladins are draining power from the naaru, and the priests and paladins, who at this point want to defeat the Scourge, rebuild their home, and basically survive, so badly that they've decided they'll do nearly anything for power. There are also aristocrats trying to cling to their meaningless power while everyone else does the real work. The vast majority of blood elf quests are decidedly not-evil, as are most blood elf quest-givers. (Kill the Scourge, bring back spider legs, deliver this, kill the Scourge some more.)

Further, I don't think anyone knows what naaru are exactly, but I certainly don't see them as "angels". They're beings of pure "light", but to me that just means holy power -- a type of power that can be used to many different ends, as evidenced by the scads of evil paladins and priests of any race that has paladins and priests.

Kish
2007-02-13, 08:11 PM
Um, I'm pretty sure Ashenvale isn't the only source of timber on the continent. They could also get timber in Stonetalon (just ask the Goblins that are clearcutting there), Ferlas or Azshara. Ashenvale may be the most convenient timber, but it's not the only source.
Oh, you're right, I was wrong about that. The Horde could theoretically lumber the Stonetalon Mountains. (Fielding an all level-40+ team of lumberers is a bit much for any race or faction, so it's obvious why they don't lumber Feralas or Azshara.)


I believe that is the difference between the Argent Dawn and the Scarlet Crusade. IIRC, the story somehow goes that the Alliance felt that the Scarlet Crusade was too fanatical about killing anything undead/scourge-like.

The Alliance has a Scarlet Crusade Emissary in the basement of Stormwind. The Alliance as a whole has never declared the Scarlet Crusade as enemies, though the Scarlet Crusade, luckily for most Alliance players, is trigger-happy enough to attack anyone not wearing a Scarlet Crusade uniform who approaches one of their bases.


Second I would like to point out is the Foresaken laborer's near Dalaran in the Hillsbrad foothills. These NPCs are neutral to alliance, which leads me to ask if the Alliance was under the impression of "UD evi1,mus pwn th3m a||!!!11" why they have forsaken laborer's working for one of the Arch Mages.They don't. They do, however, have a few named Forsaken refugees, who exist to be killed in a Horde quest given in Tarren Mill (yes, an evil Horde quest, there are quite a few, particularly given by the Forsaken). The leader of that outpost appears to be someone I would classify as good. It's a pity she's not the Highlord of Stormwind. (Yes, of course there are some good humans. For that matter, the only reason I know the conditions in the orcs' internment camps is because of reading in-game records of humans who argued for trying to make peace with the orcs properly rather than caging them up like beasts, though those humans were few and never listened to by the Alliance's governments.)

Skyserpent
2007-02-14, 12:30 AM
Heh, I for one, love the new expansion, I'm itching to start a Draenei but I just can't figure out a name I really like, I'm kinda anal about this stuff... hm... Pally or Shammy?

Arlanthe
2007-02-14, 05:50 AM
Regarding emissaries: The Soviets had emisarries in the U.S. all during the Cold War, and the White House had a direct phone line to the Kremlin. Idealogical enemies can still communicate.

I do feel the Horde is darker, and based largely on the Forsaken and Blood Elves somewhat more sinister, but we've beaten that to death. That has nothing to do with "interesting". I agree the Horde have the more interesting quests- because they are darker and involve more diverse actions. But they have the most boring lands (imo- everyone has different preferences). The first third of being an Alliance member is being up to your chest in boar guts- which gets old pretty fast. The best early Alliance area is Darkshire- the spooky place.

The Horde quests are generally more entertaining than the Alliance (except for the overlong snorefest that is the Barrens), but who or how you like to play depends from person to person. My brother always plays gnomes- from the D20 Warcraft PnP game to WoW. He really likes to tinker and play the goofy techno-gadgetier. My wife likes Allaince because they have "prettier lands" in her opinion, and she says that if she is going to play a game for many hours she wants some interesting terrain. One friend likes the Forsaken- simply because of their diabolic ways. And our Alliance guildleader's Horde main is a Tauren, because she likes their "theme". It's all a matter of taste really.

Neriana: Storywise, the Draenei are pretty bizarre. Some people like them alot, some not so much. I think they're cool. I haven't levelled BE very far, but I have a 25 Dran Warrior alt I play a bit now. I enjoyed their starting area more than any other so far, and they have some innovative quests. (I'll run BE starting areas when the rush there drops off. (All the Alliance NE fankids went over to Horde to play BEs).

And you got something against Smurfs?

MaxKaladin
2007-02-14, 11:41 AM
I don't really know enough about the backstory to add much to the debate. All I can say is that I mostly play dwarves and what I know about their backstory and quests doesn't make them appear evil to me. What little I know suggests that the dwarves pretty much kept to themselves until the second war when they were invaded without provocation by the Horde. That prompted them to join the alliance and they've been members ever since.

To be honest, the dwarves strike me as junior members of the Alliance. I say that because you don't really see any sort of official dwarven presence outside of Khaz Modan). All the various little alliance outposts on both continents are commanded by humans or elves and guarded by human or elven troops. Pretty much all the alliance outposts I can think of on the western continent are elf-run. The only possible exception I can think of is a bunch of dwarves in southern Barrens that are green to alliance and I think are an alliance outpost (but which has no flight path, no vendors and no quests that I ever found). On the eastern continent, I can't think of any dwarf-run outposts outside of Khaz Modan except for non-alliance dwarves like the Wildhammers. Everything is human-run. There seems to be some indication the dwarves have a lot to do with alliance military activity off-screen, so to speak. There is a "war room" of sorts in Ironforge where dwarven commanders appear to be directing some sort of military campaign and there are references (even in the starting video for dwarf characters) of the dwarven armies being off fighting for the alliance. I don't PvP (which, oddly, seems to shock and offend some people) so I don't know what goes on there. Ironforge is well-known as the primary hangout of alliance characters (at least prior to outlands), but that's mostly a result of it being the only auction house for a long time and the way the travel hubs are laid out.

Anyway, the dwarves "on-screen", so to speak, seem to spend their focusing on immediate threats in their own lands and with archaeology. I didn't even know there are dwarves in Mulgore but, if they're like the dwarven archaeologists elsewhere, they're interested in digging and are aggressive only to the extent that they want to drive away anyone and anything that interferes. There are several quests that basically involve a dig being infested with some monster and the dwarves wanting you to kill them off so they can go back to digging. That's not a good thing, but I don't really see it as being very different from wanting to chop down trees and killing anyone that gets in the way.

Outside of archaeologists, I can't think of very many dwarven questgivers outside of Khaz Modan. You've got a few in Stormwind that mostly either send you to deadmines or back to dwarven lands or are for class/profession quests. There's Hemet Nesingwary and his bunch, of course, but they're really only a threat to the local wildlife. There's probably a few more scattered here and there that I don't remember at the moment.

I don't see dwarves being any worse than any of the other races and I think they're better than several. I suppose there's a certain amount of guilt by association by being in the Alliance but I think the same goes for the horde races.

Poison_Fish
2007-02-14, 02:03 PM
The dwarves actually have a lot to do with what's going on in Blackrock Mountain. But that's a bit higher then STV, so you'll get to see that soon.

neriana
2007-02-14, 02:28 PM
Anyway, the dwarves "on-screen", so to speak, seem to spend their focusing on immediate threats in their own lands and with archaeology. I didn't even know there are dwarves in Mulgore but, if they're like the dwarven archaeologists elsewhere, they're interested in digging and are aggressive only to the extent that they want to drive away anyone and anything that interferes.

Yeah, but unfortunately, they're tearing up Mulgore and intent on exterminating any tauren who want to protect their home. The tauren have explicitly tried diplomatic methods to get them out, as well, but the dwarves refuse to leave or even mitigate their behavior. These are dwarves supported by and allied with the Alliance. Being so obsessed with mining that they don't see anyone else as having the rights to any land they may be interested in ripping apart is rather straightforwardly wrong, even evil.

MaxKaladin
2007-02-14, 03:32 PM
The dwarves actually have a lot to do with what's going on in Blackrock Mountain. But that's a bit higher then STV, so you'll get to see that soon.My highest level dwarf is level 66. I've been through BRD and LBRS before and done some of UBRS (prior to outlands, my guild really liked doing Scholo and Strath for some reason). The whole Blackrock Mountain thing is tied up in the civil war the dwarves had way back before they were ever part of the alliance. Plus, I consider that a pretty local threat since the dark irons are right next door to the dwarves and you see them in Khaz Modan making trouble as early as about 10th level (in some of the dwarven class quests).

Edit: BTW, Hemet Nesingwary isn't in STV anymore. His son took over for him there. Hemet himself is in Outland now.

MaxKaladin
2007-02-14, 03:57 PM
Yeah, but unfortunately, they're tearing up Mulgore and intent on exterminating any tauren who want to protect their home. The tauren have explicitly tried diplomatic methods to get them out, as well, but the dwarves refuse to leave or even mitigate their behavior. These are dwarves supported by and allied with the Alliance. Being so obsessed with mining that they don't see anyone else as having the rights to any land they may be interested in ripping apart is rather straightforwardly wrong, even evil.Like I said, I didn't even know there were any dwarves in Mulgore and I don't know anything about them. I suppose I could ride over there and look but I don't know if they actually have any text for Alliance characters. I suppose I could make a newbie Tauren and go look but it would probably take a while to get the quests required to get any actual information. I can't really comment much without knowing anything about them.

I wonder what sort of "diplomacy" the Tauren tried. Was there any actual chance of the dwarves getting to dig in peace or was it more of the "go away and we won't try to kill you" variety? Are the dwarves actually mining? I don't think I've seen dwarven miners anywhere outside of Khaz Modan. I've seen archaeological digs in various places in the game. With one or two exceptions, the digs I've seen have been pretty small and hardly qualify as tearing up a whole zone. Certainly no more than all the logging in Ashenvale is tearing up that zone. All the digsites that have been threatened have been concerned with securing the site itself, but I can't recall any quests involving killing anyone away from the dig itself.

It is certainly possible that the situation in Mulgore qualifies as "they don't see anyone else as having the rights to any land they may be interested in ripping apart is rather straightforwardly wrong, even evil". Then again, it seems the same statement also seems to apply to logging Ashenvale even if the elves object.

neriana
2007-02-14, 04:17 PM
Like I said, I didn't even know there were any dwarves in Mulgore and I don't know anything about them. I suppose I could ride over there and look but I don't know if they actually have any text for Alliance characters. I suppose I could make a newbie Tauren and go look but it would probably take a while to get the quests required to get any actual information. I can't really comment much without knowing anything about them.

I wonder what sort of "diplomacy" the Tauren tried. Was there any actual chance of the dwarves getting to dig in peace or was it more of the "go away and we won't try to kill you" variety? Are the dwarves actually mining? I don't think I've seen dwarven miners anywhere outside of Khaz Modan. I've seen archaeological digs in various places in the game. With one or two exceptions, the digs I've seen have been pretty small and hardly qualify as tearing up a whole zone. Certainly no more than all the logging in Ashenvale is tearing up that zone. All the digsites that have been threatened have been concerned with securing the site itself, but I can't recall any quests involving killing anyone away from the dig itself.

It is certainly possible that the situation in Mulgore qualifies as "they don't see anyone else as having the rights to any land they may be interested in ripping apart is rather straightforwardly wrong, even evil". Then again, it seems the same statement also seems to apply to logging Ashenvale even if the elves object.

I thought someone would bring this up. What the Horde is doing in Ashenvale is certainly not right -- however, sustainable logging is a different proposition from mining. Logging doesn't destroy the land (unless the logging is being done by the Venture Co., whom the Tauren hate with a passion) and logging done right doesn't even hurt the forest in the long run. Further, the Horde does /need/ lumber. The dwarves just /want/ to mine, because they're obsessed with whatever knowledge they may gain from it. Also, Ashenvale is right on the border with Horde lands. Mulgore is about as far from Dwarven lands as you can actually get. They're on a (typically, for the Alliance) imperialistic mission to take whatever they want from someone else's land.

The Tauren have every right to tell the dwarves "go away and we won't try to kill you." The dwarves have no right to be there. However, Tauren are actually a very diplomatic and peaceful people, and it is quite likely that their leaders tried to come to a better arrangement. Dwarves, and the Alliance generally, are neither diplomatic nor peaceful. In general, they don't see the Horde as having any right to exist, and would certainly never go to the diplomatic lengths Thrall has to try to stand together against the real threats to Azeroth.

The Horde makes plenty of mistakes, mainly out of desperation and occasionally naivete, as when they trust Sylvanus. The Alliance makes mistakes out of ignorance, xenophobia, greed, and racism. The Horde has some inner divisions, but the most powerful group in the Alliance, the humans, is

actually secretly being run by one of the most evil beings on Azeroth, the black dragon Onyxia. There is only one leader in the entire game who is good, powerful, diplomatic, and determined to stand up to the Scourge and Burning Legion, and that is Thrall. He actively wants to join with the Alliance in this battle. Meanwhile, the only Alliance leader with the potential to match him has been sent off to an outpost far away from the center of power -- because she is good, diplomatic, and determined to fight real evil, even if that means allying with former enemies. The Alliance is currently a cesspool of corruption and disorder at the highest levels.

ilovefire
2007-02-14, 07:08 PM
*ahem* This may just be my lack of knowledge of Mulgore (I've never really played a Tauren), but I thought the people trying to strip mine it were from the Venture Co.? Please, correct me if I am wrong...

krossbow
2007-02-14, 07:14 PM
they don't follow the light man; its BECAUSE they torture that they're paladins. They have one of the light creatures that the Draenei are allied with captive, and they extract pure light essence from it to be paladins.
________
Vaporizer reviews (http://vaporizers.net/vaporizers)

neriana
2007-02-14, 10:15 PM
*ahem* This may just be my lack of knowledge of Mulgore (I've never really played a Tauren), but I thought the people trying to strip mine it were from the Venture Co.? Please, correct me if I am wrong...

There are Venture Co. people there too. The dwarves are closer to the Tauren starting area.

Arlanthe
2007-02-15, 10:38 AM
Let's discuss the true evil of Azeroth and Beyond: the Orphans!!!!1!!one!!

MaxKaladin
2007-02-15, 11:04 AM
I went and found these dwarves in Mulgore but they're not set up to talk to Alliance characters so I don't have any story from them. I went out on the net and looked for the quest text dealing with them and found one quest and it didn't mention diplomacy at all. It just said something about them defiling the earth or something and telling the player to go kill them and bring back broken tools. Interestingly, the quest giver does say that there is something there to find, but then he goes on to say some silly nonsense about how digging isn't the way to extract secrets from the earth -- and then tells you to go kill the dwarves. :smallsigh:

I did find that there is a quest in the Barrens at higher levels (low 20s) that mentions diplomacy failing when sending you to kill dwarves. He says you need to bring back the journal of the dwarven leader and that's presumably where this stuff about dwarves wanting to kill all the tauren comes from. I didn't see the text itself posted anywhere though. In any case, it's not in Mulgore but in Barrens.

In both cases, I didn't get the idea that the tauren were inclined to make concessions.

Another thing: The Horde and Alliance are at war. (If they're not, they need to tell their NPC guards to not go attacking people from the other side.) That's going to put a real damper on diplomacy and on efforts to peacefully negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement about archaeology. I suspect the dwarves options were probably limited to "don't dig" or "go dig in the territory claimed by the people we're at war with and fight anybody who tries to interfere" with "negotiate a deal to dig" being completely off the table. Yes, the dwarves are violating the other side's territory (though an archaeological dig seems a pretty small violation), but that's what you do in a war. For all either of us know, the dwarves would negotiate these things if there weren't a war on.

I didn't go look at the lumbering operation in Ashenvale but I've seen it before and my memory of it is that it's non-destructive only in comparison to the Venture Company operations. It's certainly more destructive than the dwarven digs. I also don't consider the pursuit of knowledge any less valid an excuse than the pursuit of timber.

I don't really care what the rest of the alliance has done. I'm not trying to defend the whole alliance, just the dwarves. No, their territorial violations aren't the nicest thing in the world but they seem like a fairly small "evil" in comparison to the things most of the other races have done.

Tormsskull
2007-02-16, 03:52 PM
I personally don't know the WOW lore that well, but from my experience playing a Tauren they seem to be pacifistic & nature-loving. They were nearly destroyed by the centaurs and so they joined the Horde to survive. Of all of the races in the game, if I were to call one of the races "good" I'd say it is probably Taurens. Of course, I haven't played a Draeni before, so maybe they are even more so.

Arlanthe
2007-02-19, 10:04 AM
I completed a basic, uncontrolled poll on the Proudmoore server. There were 58 respondents, all of whom play both Alliance and Horde. (This is a PvE server where the Alliance outnumbers Horde 2:1).

The possible answers ranged from -3 "Horde definitely most evil" to 0 "They are the same" to 3 "Alliance is defintely the more evil". I posted it in my own forum (Proudmoore Guild Alliance- a bunch of guilds that work together). The results:

-3: 10
-2: 10
-1:14
0: 15
1: 2
2: 1
3: 6

1) So the most popular answer (the mode) was "they are the same".

2) The average answer was "The Horde is leaning somewhat more evil" (-.74)

3) 3.8 times as many players think the Horde is evil compared to the Alliance.

4) The distribution was bimodal, with one node in the "Horde leaning evil", and a smalller, sharper mode directly on "The Alliance is definitely the most evil".

5) The most common associated comment was "Blizzard tried to balance them, but the Horde turned out somewhat more evil).

So there are a lot of people that think the factions are the same, but more that think the Horde hosts the greater evil. People are more likely to find the Horde a greater evil than the Alliance.

This was an uncontrolled, unscientific study, but I think it pretty much captures the gist of how WoW players feel.

Crazy Owl
2007-02-19, 10:49 AM
58 people isn't much of a test.

Poison_Fish
2007-02-19, 02:03 PM
Ah, good old convenient samples.

I'll just say for more clarification(Since you already covered it), statistically it is not representative of the population. Though, I'm not going to disagree with the overall assessment.

I imagine what most players think, regardless of actual lore or other arguments, is that the alliance is in a more upstanding moral position. You simply can not remove what people associate when the question of race and fantasy collide with moral alignment. Mostly because of the traditional roles of humans/dwarves/gnomes etc. vs. Orcs/trolls/less human like races.

I also don't think providing a "what players think" side would do much for the argument that's going on here. This is a question of lore and meta game knowledge. Something that I think even statistics could show that when taking the total population, most players have no clue, nor care for the entirety of details. (Great, now I sound like an elitist. Where is my beret and fine coffee grounds?)

Holocron Coder
2007-02-19, 03:42 PM
Ah, good old convenient samples. ... This is a question of lore and meta game knowledge. Something that I think even statistics could show that when taking the total population, most players have no clue, nor care for the entirety of details. (Great, now I sound like an elitist. Where is my beret and fine coffee grounds?)

-hands over the imported coffee and custom-made beret-

Just to throw my two cents at the heads of those debating, there is a quest in the Draenai starting area that explicitly states that the Blood Elves are trying to "kidnap" the Naaru that's inside the wrecked Draenai ship for their own use.

Additionally, this is just my opinion, but the Blood elf beginning quests did come off as rather... evil sounding. Not so much evil as "We hate everyone and we are going to get what we think we deserve, or else D: grrrrr".

Ahem.

Tauren seem to be the most peaceful. I don't quite the "sinister" part of the night elves, but I do somewhat see the xenophobia. The human race was hit pretty dang hard by the Horde back in the old games, so the prejudice they have is there, but I wouldn't consider it evil. Misguided with the new orcs of Thrall, but not evil or overly malign.

The Darkspear trolls weren't as hateful as their brethren, but that doesn't mean they like everyone, either. I'm pretty sure they hate dwarves for some reason... "Ate one dwarf in the morning, ate two more at night..." I believe the quote goes.

I don't think the Gnomes irridating their city would classify as evil, either. more of a giant "oops". Think of pollution in today's times. Are we evil for polluting the world? I wouldn't say evil, more like... stupid.

Dwarves do seem somewhat single-minded, and that can lead to trouble... but they don't seem to be overly antagonistic so much as zealously guarding what they believe is theirs. Not saying it's "right" either, but I doubt you can consider it evil... more xenophobic.

The Forsaken and their "kill everything" idea... Yeah, it's kinda hard to argue that they AREN'T evil on some level.

General summary: Tauren are "good", Blood Elves are "creepy", Forsaken are pretty much "evil", and everyone else falls into a neutral zone to some extent.

Well, that ended up being more like $5 in change than 2 cents... O well, hope you don't get bruises.

Remember, this is all my opinion. I'll debate it, but you can't right-out call me wrong ;)

Crazy Owl
2007-02-19, 06:04 PM
The Darkspear trolls weren't as hateful as their brethren, but that doesn't mean they like everyone, either. I'm pretty sure they hate dwarves for some reason... "Ate one dwarf in the morning, ate two more at night..." I believe the quote goes.

Trolls hate Elves the most which is another of the complaints about Blood Elves joining the Horde but I think they Hate Night Elves more than High/Blood Elves anyway.

Blackdrop
2007-02-19, 10:58 PM
I see no reason for people to assume that Blood Elves are evil. I don't if anyone brought this up but, to me, Blood Elves are addicts, through and through. Would you say that someone who has a bad drug addiction is evil? I don't. I feel sorry for them. I pity them even. They (the Blood Elves) are worse off. They die if they don't feed their addiction correct?

ilovefire
2007-02-19, 11:08 PM
worse. They go MAD

stark raving, hopelessly MAD

with no chance of recovery except death.

They'd be better off dead.

Arlanthe
2007-02-20, 05:33 AM
I see no reason for people to assume that Blood Elves are evil. I don't if anyone brought this up but, to me, Blood Elves are addicts, through and through. Would you say that someone who has a bad drug addiction is evil? I don't. I feel sorry for them. I pity them even. They (the Blood Elves) are worse off. They die if they don't feed their addiction correct?

I don't think anyone is "assuming" the Blood Elves are evil. That implies no evidence. Read the whole thread- plenty of evidence has been given. They are the ultimate "the ends justify the means" race, and while I understand they are addicts, their actions go way beyond survival. Poisoning animals to kill Broken Ones? Subduing/enslaving a Naaru to harvest the light? Torturing prisoners? Working with (yes, actively- as you can see in Outlands) their cousins that sabotaged the Dranei ship... just do their quests.

With regard to my earlier toy poll, I certainly admit the sample size was way too small, and a different result could appear from, say, a Horde-heavy PvP sever poll.

Also, what's with the whole "fallen race" thing, where the story is driven by a race that has been or is fallen (from grace or power), nearly destroyed, and/or trying to redeem itself? I mean, they used it as the WC3 major plot line with the Orcs. Then the Darkspear are trying to "redeem" themselves and join Thrall's ways. And the Forsaken are a fallen race. And ther Blood Elves are a fallen race. And the Night Elves are a fallen race. And the Dranei are a fallen race of sorts, in that like the Darkspear they were nearly all killed (plus there are the Broken Eredar...). The Gnomes also fit the "fallen race" mold with Gnomeregan. So that leaves Tauren, Darves, and Humans. And even THEN, Stormwind is the last standing great kingdom, the others having been destroyed, and wallow in corruption, and are led by an orphaned king and dragon. So tehy marginally fit the mold.

And there is still time for the Dwarves- in their next big plot twist, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dwarves learn from their searchign they are fallen Titans... that being said, the Dwarves still have their own "fallen" offshoot (won't name the spoiler).

And the Tauren while not fallen, were still hunted to the edge of extinction... geez. I'm re-rolling goblin.

MaxKaladin
2007-02-20, 11:52 AM
And there is still time for the Dwarves- in their next big plot twist, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dwarves learn from their searchign they are fallen Titans... that being said, the Dwarves still have their own "fallen" offshoot (won't name the spoiler).Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was comment knowledge that the dwarves believe they are the children of the Titans who slept for a long time and awoke in a new form as dwarves. That's why they're doing archaeology. They found ruins that supported what had simply been a myth before that and now have turned to archaeology to try and build a more complete picture of their origins and lost heritage. I'm pretty sure at least some of that is in the opening movie for dwarven characters.

Sahegian
2007-02-21, 02:42 PM
So not to break up the conversation about good and evil and the races of WoW, but is anyone playing the new high end content? I'm curious as to how everyone else is feeling about it.

I'm loving 70 so far and the new instances are great, but does anyone else feel like they went a little overboard with the reputations? Right now everything I am doing is to gain favor with one faction or another so I can buy some key or item so I can do some other instance. Not to mention trying to get the 5,000 gold I need to buy the training for a fast flying mount.

The instances seem to be very well thought out and they seem to be much faster than the previous instances which is awsome, but I've not been able to do any of the 25 man instances yet so I can't comment on them.

So does anyone else have opinions on the new end game?

Joran
2007-02-21, 02:55 PM
I haven't hit the end-game, but I'm about 200K exp away from 70.

I absolutely love the new format of the instances. All the instances I've been in have been run in about an hour, and it makes it easy to group up with friends and just go on a whim.

However, whoever planned the quests in Nagrand needs to have his game designer license revoked. Killing 30 of three kinds of mobs, 25 of two kinds of mobs, is not fun!

Lapak
2007-02-21, 03:58 PM
My two cents on the 'evil' debate:

For the most part, it seems to me that the plot-relevant actions of the major races fall into two categories, that can be broken down into two sub-categories: Survival-Based or Not, Self-Centered or Not. Survival is pretty central to almost all of the WoW races' overall policies, but their non-survival-driven actions often speak loudly about the tendencies of their leadership. For the sub-categories, how they go about reaching their goals tells us as much as what their motivations are.

To take an example:
Orcs: Survival-based actions include logging Ashenvale (Selfishly executed), allowing both the Blood Elves and the Forsaken to join (neutral to unselfish), and defending Alterac Valley. (Unselfish.)
Non-survival driven actions include seeking out and destroying demon-allied members of Horde races (neutral) and going on missions to placate and/or assist the Alliance. (Neutral to unselfish.)

On balance, they tend to be neutral/ends justify the means when it comes to survival, and benign when they have the opportunity to. Thrall's Orcs are neutral, maybe tending very slightly to good, as a culture.

The Blood Elves, now; most of their actions revolve around survival. They go about it, from my exposure to their quest lines and the draenai quest lines, in an extremely selfish manner. This may be explained by the suffering they've gone through, but it doesn't excuse it. They might, for example, have been able to come to an arrangement with the Naaru to gain energy, as the Naaru in general don't seem to mind sharing their reserves, but they have chosen to imprison and drain one, and they're actively planning to capture the one in the Exodar and do the same to it.

Their overall presentation tends to evil, though it's mitigated by their focus on survival and avoiding mana withdrawal.

The Forsaken, of course, don't need to eliminate all other life to survive. The RAS is pretty inarguably evil, and it guides a good chunk of their policy. They have ample non-survival-based quests that are selfish to boot, and are probably the single most evil race. Not that they're all individually evil, but as a culture.

Taking this kind of breakdown and applying it across the board:
Orcs: Neutral survival, slightly good other.
Trolls: Neutral survival, somewhat evil other.
Taurens: Slightly good survival, slightly good other.
Undead: Neutral to slightly evil survival, evil other.
Blood Elf: Evil survival, other unknown N/A.

Human: Somewhat evil survival, neutral other.
Dwarf: Slightly evil survival, somewhat evil other.
Gnome: Neutral-stupid survival, slightly good other.
Night Elf: Neutral survival, neutral other.
Draenai: Somewhat good survival, no other considerations.

For me, what you choose to do matters more than what you feel you have to do. For that reason, even though the Draenai are represented as 'purely good', I wouldn't call them as good as the Tauren, who generally approach their survival with a mildly unselfish bent and also make efforts to assist other Horde races - even though the Tauren do something act badly in survival situations.

If I had to rank them, from evil to good:
Forsaken, Blood Elves, Dwarves, Trolls, Humans, Night Elves, Gnomes, Orcs, Draenai, Tauren.

And now that I've put it there I can see that the Alliance mostly takes up the whole middle and the Horde has both the top and the bottom rank. That could explain why some people see it each way: those who concentrate on the Forsaken will see the Alliance as more good, those that concentrate on the Orcs and Taurens will see the Horde as more good.

That turned out longer than I intended it to.

Reinforcements
2007-02-21, 04:41 PM
The Blood Elves, now; most of their actions revolve around survival. They go about it, from my exposure to their quest lines and the draenai quest lines, in an extremely selfish manner. This may be explained by the suffering they've gone through, but it doesn't excuse it. They might, for example, have been able to come to an arrangement with the Naaru to gain energy, as the Naaru in general don't seem to mind sharing their reserves, but they have chosen to imprison and drain one, and they're actively planning to capture the one in the Exodar and do the same to it.
Remember that the Sun Hawk blood elves, the ones the draenei fight on Bloodmyst Isle, are not allied with Silvermoon.

Crazy Owl
2007-02-21, 05:19 PM
Why do Blood Elves get evil survival on your list where as the Undead get neutral to evil survival?

Vaynor
2007-02-21, 11:23 PM
Hey WoWers, wanna join the Gitp fun? Add your names to the Gitp WoW Database (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35615) today!

Lapak
2007-02-22, 03:16 PM
Why do Blood Elves get evil survival on your list where as the Undead get neutral to evil survival?Most of the things that the BEs do to promote their own survival directly involve trouble for other beings, and significant portions of their society don't make too much of an effort to minimize that suffering. Their attitude seems to be that the fact that they need the magic justifies almost any excess in obtaining it.

In terms of necessary-for-survival actions, the Forsaken actually haven't gone too far out there: they've allied with the Horde (if anything a step up for them), they would like to wipe out some of the more aggressive factions sitting on their doorstep, and so on. The worst thing I've so far encountered in terms of racial survival that they're doing is trying to wipe out the humans in Hillsbrad, and that's more crimes-of-war than deliberate evil.

The RAS goes beyond and outside of survivial in its plague research, torture experiments, and general kill-all-life activities. These aren't even necessarily for the survival of the Forsaken, so I class it as worse than pretty much anything the BEs do.

Also, Reinforcements, you're right that I had mixed up Sun Hawk motivations/actions with Silvermoon ones. The Silvermoon Blood Knights do go right ahead with the Naaru-draining, though, and feel perfectly self-righteous in doing so.

Vaynor
2007-02-22, 04:03 PM
The Forsaken actually only allied with the Horde to get help to kill the Lich King, they aren't really allied, only technically.

Anyways, I would put the Forsaken above if not the same with the BE's on evil survival. Ever heard of plagues?

Sahegian
2007-02-22, 04:43 PM
Those 30 kill quests are exp gold mines. Easy mob grinding quests are generally the best turn around on exp even if they arn't particularly heavy on story.

Lapak
2007-02-22, 04:52 PM
The Forsaken actually only allied with the Horde to get help to kill the Lich King, they aren't really allied, only technically.This, I consider survival: getting allies against the worst threat to you very soul.
Anyways, I would put the Forsaken above if not the same with the BE's on evil survival. Ever heard of plagues?The plagues aren't survival-based - they are in no way necessary to the continuation of the Forsaken. They're outright malicious, which puts them in the non-survival (evil) category. Keep in mind I do actually consider that WORSE than survival (evil.)

Joran
2007-02-22, 05:53 PM
Those 30 kill quests are exp gold mines. Easy mob grinding quests are generally the best turn around on exp even if they arn't particularly heavy on story.

It's not that it isn't easy. It's that it's mindnumbing. It's basically grinding with bonus exp at the end.

There's a way to make it a little more fun. Kill a creature, run a banner through their cold, dead corpse. Makes it a little more entertaining ;)

ilovefire
2007-02-22, 07:44 PM
Heh, that's actually a quest in the Dranei 10-20 zone. On eo fthe first ones.

And fun as heck, 'cause if you do it just right it looks like you are shoving the flag into the mob's anus.

Vaynor
2007-02-22, 10:59 PM
Heh, that's actually a quest in the Dranei 10-20 zone. On eo fthe first ones.

And fun as heck, 'cause if you do it just right it looks like you are shoving the flag into the mob's anus.

Oh yah you have to kill that naga lord guy in the southern region... that was a fun quest.

Leon
2007-02-23, 06:29 AM
It's not that it isn't easy. It's that it's mindnumbing. It's basically grinding with bonus exp at the end.

There's a way to make it a little more fun. Kill a creature, run a banner through their cold, dead corpse. Makes it a little more entertaining ;)

there are a few of those in nagarand aswell