". . .Past The Dwarven Lands, Even"

[eilandesq]

Unless the Mechane detours around the dwarven lands on the way to the Gate, a certain prophecy regarding Durkon is about to be met--and we've seen the Mechane contribute mildly to the downfall of at least one lawful good civilization without meaning to by taking out that Azure City guard tower just before the invasion by Xykon's army. Suppose the dwarven defenses take shots at the Mechane going by for reasons similar to what Azure City had (or maybe Julio just stole a lot of the dwarves' best beer/ale/booze and they swore blood vengeance on him for it), and the Mechane fires back, punching a hole in their defenses that ends up being exploited by an invading horde of monsters streaming out of Kragor's Gate due to Xykon blasting in and making a hole for them to escape. Sounds like that could be rough on the dwarves. . .and it never could have happened if they hadn't exiled Durkon in the first place.

[BaronOfHell]

Cool idea, but where does Durkon come into it?

[Fish]

Interesting theory. I think we should start a little earlier, though.

1. It seems a common consensus that Kraagor's Gate is in dwarven lands, if only because we have seen the artwork and it seems (superficially) to line up. But does the Order know this?

2. If Roy is trying to steer beyond the dwarven lands, where could he be heading? Is he heading over the polar ice cap?

3. If Roy knew that the Gate was in the dwarven homeland, and believed Durkon was not allowed to return, would that cause a crisis?

My answer:
1. Yes, I think we're right in our guess about the location of Kraagor's Gate. However, the Order does not know this.

2. Roy is heading back to the Oracle to find out where the last Gate is.

3. However,
...as they pass over the Dwarven homelands, Durkon wants to visit home. Roy says no. Durkon sabotages the ship. They crash in the homeland, and discover that's where they need to be.

[Shale]

I'm expecting Kraagor's Gate to be located underground, such that in order to access it the Order has to leave the Mechane behind and make their way through the dwarven tunnels. Whether it's actually in the Dwarven Lands is irrelevant if they only way to it takes them straight through Durkon's old backyard.

[Bulldog Psion]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction. Isn't the most parsimonious explanation that Durk Malackssen simply follows in Malack's footsteps with worship of Nergal, and that his mere presence as an undead worshiper of this divinity is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy once he is in dwarf territory?

[MesiDoomstalker]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction. Isn't the most parsimonious explanation that Durk Malackssen simply follows in Malack's footsteps with worship of Nergal, and that his mere presence as an undead worshiper of this divinity is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy once he is in dwarf territory?

Prophecies like to be annoyingly difficult to predict the exact outcome, as ironic as that is. While that is one possible explanation, its not the only one and others have equal validity. Prophecies don't have to be parsimonious. In fact, ones with complicated fulfillment are far more common than simple ones.

My point is, until the prophecy is fulfilled, saying "This is obviously how its gonna be" is wrong for the simple fact we don't know how its going to be fulfilled yet.

[jere7my]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction. Isn't the most parsimonious explanation that Durk Malackssen simply follows in Malack's footsteps with worship of Nergal, and that his mere presence as an undead worshiper of this divinity is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy once he is in dwarf territory?

Ding ding ding.

[zimmerwald1915]

Interesting theory. I think we should start a little earlier, though.

1. It seems a common consensus that Kraagor's Gate is in dwarven lands, if only because we have seen the artwork and it seems (superficially) to line up. But does the Order know this?
Shojo gave Roy the latitude and longitude coordinates [Soon was given] for Girard's and Kraagor's Gates.

[hamishspence]

3. If Roy knew that the Gate was in the dwarven homeland, and believed Durkon was not allowed to return, would that cause a crisis?

I'd say Roy currently believes Durkon does not yet have permission to return- given that he heard Durkon dictating the letter, and read the letter:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

and that the reply, being brought by Miko, was eaten by The Monster In The Darkness- so none of the OoTS got to see it.

However, I suspect Roy will not care all that much - figuring that "the fate of the world" matters more than dwarven sensibilities.

[Keltest]

I'd say Roy currently believes Durkon does not yet have permission to return- given that he heard Durkon dictating the letter, and read the letter:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

and that the reply, being brought by Miko, was eaten by The Monster In The Darkness- so none of the OoTS got to see it.

However, I suspect Roy will not care all that much - figuring that "the fate of the world" matters more than dwarven sensibilities.

I don't particularly disagree, but I would not be at all surprised if he simple said "Fine. Durkon, Stay on the ship while we resupply." just to avoid trouble with the dwarves.

[cheesecake]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction. Isn't the most parsimonious explanation that Durk Malackssen simply follows in Malack's footsteps with worship of Nergal, and that his mere presence as an undead worshiper of this divinity is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy once he is in dwarf territory?

Way too obvious for this comic!!!

It will be some round about messed up way that you have to draw strange parallels to even come close to making sense.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It seems likely that, some way or another, we will see Durkon's prophecy come to pass (either the Oracle's or the other one). So I believe that we will be seeing the Dwarven homelands at some point, though not necessarily soon.

[Kornaki]

Way too obvious for this comic!!!

It will be some round about messed up way that you have to draw strange parallels to even come close to making sense.

Like when Belkar asked if he would kill the Oracle and later killed the Oracle? Or when Roy asked whether Xykon would arrive at Girard's gate or Kraagor's gate first and Xykon showed up at Girard's gate? Or when Durkon was told he was going to return posthumously to the dwarven homelands and he is now dead?

V's prophecy about arcane power was unclear in its statement, but in its fulfillment was very straightforward. The only one I would consider to involve strange parallels is Haley getting her voice back (by not looking the gift horse in the mouth).

[oonker]

There are two prophecies to come to pass:

- bring death and destruction
- posthumously

I believe the "posthumously" part is already set, but the "death and destruction" thing will be a dubious thing.

[Keltest]

Like when Belkar asked if he would kill the Oracle and later killed the Oracle? Or when Roy asked whether Xykon would arrive at Girard's gate or Kraagor's gate first and Xykon showed up at Girard's gate? Or when Durkon was told he was going to return posthumously to the dwarven homelands and he is now dead?

V's prophecy about arcane power was unclear in its statement, but in its fulfillment was very straightforward. The only one I would consider to involve strange parallels is Haley getting her voice back (by not looking the gift horse in the mouth).

Assuming you know what that saying means, it was pretty straightforward too. Her subconscious was screaming "something is off here!" (almost literally) but she ignored it and took "Elan's" invitation for a date at face value, because she wanted it.

[Living Oxymoron]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction.

The basic domains of a vampire cleric are Death and Destruction too.

[Finagle]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction. Isn't the most parsimonious explanation that Durk Malackssen simply follows in Malack's footsteps with worship of Nergal, and that his mere presence as an undead worshiper of this divinity is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy once he is in dwarf territory?
Nah, Durkon will be the first priest of Hel. Hel has been talked about too much (twice) to be a throwaway character. And if a character is introduced, that means the character has some sort of purpose. Why even bother otherwise?

[Socksy]

It didn't say "Death and destruction" and "Posthumously" had to be at the same time, right? Perhaps it happens after he's left...

[ericgrau]

Posthumously means after he dies, which he has. Death and Destruction are his new cleric domains as a vampire. Heck he could fulfill the prophecy with a casual visit. The thing is, there's no one around to even remember the prophecy so it'd make a rather boring story if it turns out this way. Who will even comment on it in the comic?

Except for one thing. Destruction is vampire domain. Death isn't. So it falls flat for that reason too.

[Werbaer]

I'd say Roy currently believes Durkon does not yet have permission to return- given that he heard Durkon dictating the letter, and read the letter:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html

Roy knows that Durkon has been sent away to study the humans, and that he is not allowed to return *home* until he is called.
There's nothing forbidding him to accompany humans while they have dealings in other parts of the dwarfen lands.

[ClockShock]

Nah, Durkon will be the first priest of Hel. Hel has been talked about too much (twice) to be a throwaway character. And if a character is introduced, that means the character has some sort of purpose. Why even bother otherwise?

Oh yeah, totally, and the Dark One is really Goblin Dan. :smallannoyed:

[Smolder]

The basic domains of a vampire cleric are Death and Destruction too.

I really want one comic, or even a few panels, devoted to Durkon choosing his new deity (probably sparking arguments between Hel and Nergal, possibly even Thor), only to finally give up and officially go non-theistic just to avoid all the cosmic drama.

[Kornaki]

Assuming you know what that saying means, it was pretty straightforward too. Her subconscious was screaming "something is off here!" (almost literally) but she ignored it and took "Elan's" invitation for a date at face value, because she wanted it.

The way that it is not straightforward is that the sequence of events that went from 'go on the date with Nale' to 'get her voice back' is a little convoluted, compared to everyone else (for example V's prophecy where stating those words was literally the triggering event for gaining magical power).

[Kish]

The way that it is not straightforward is that the sequence of events that went from 'go on the date with Nale' to 'get her voice back' is a little convoluted, compared to everyone else (for example V's prophecy where stating those words was literally the triggering event for gaining magical power).
Actually, it wasn't. Saying the words was necessary to psyche herself/himself up to do something that was a Really Bad Idea, but the triggering event was touching the blue sphere.

[Roland Itiative]

It seems a common consensus that Kraagor's Gate is in dwarven lands, if only because we have seen the artwork and it seems (superficially) to line up. But does the Order know this?
Supposedly, yes. They have coordinates to it, they can pinpoint its location with great precision using a map and some simple tools (something Roy has done before). The coordinates could be wrong again, but how likely is it that this will become a plot point twice in a row? Two in a million, I'd say, just low enough for it to be almost impossible, and not guaranteed to happen due to the unlikelihood :smalltongue:

Kragoor's Gate is probably on the northern part of the dawrven territories, so landing north of it would give them an easier distance to travel (since dwarven territories in fantasy are usually quite full of mountains).

[Toper]

Pretty sure actual death and destruction will be involved. The Oracle is free to make prophecies that are quite small and limited in scope, since sometimes people (like Durkon) ask questions like that. But this prophecy seems to have come down unrequested from Odin, which would tend to imply that it has significant consequences for the Dwarven Lands.

[xroads]

3. However,
...as they pass over the Dwarven homelands, Durkon wants to visit home. Roy says no. Durkon sabotages the ship. They crash in the homeland, and discover that's where they need to be.


Not sure why this is a spoiler, but I'll keep that way.

Anyways, I imagine Roy has probably already consulted his long time dwarven ally, about the best ways to approach the gate. So in the scenario you mention above, it would be easier for Durkon just to direct the landing spot to wherever he wants and then safely disembark and go about his business.

[Smolder]

They'll crash-land in Dwarven lands, bringing death and destruction by crashing into a temple of Thor. There are plenty of possible causes for the crash. Random encounter with harpies, Laurinear Guild return, hurricane...

[brionl]

On the other hand, Durkon is prophesied to bring Death and Destruction to the dwarven lands. Nergal is said to be god of Death and Destruction. Isn't the most parsimonious explanation that Durk Malackssen simply follows in Malack's footsteps with worship of Nergal, and that his mere presence as an undead worshiper of this divinity is sufficient to fulfill the prophecy once he is in dwarf territory?

Or, an epic Lich Sorcerer and a high level Goblin Cleric with Destruction as one of his domains show up at the same time as Durkon.

And I don't think Destruction is one of Nergal's domains anyway.

[Shale]

"My master is Nergal, lion-headed god of Death and Destruction." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html)