Hunter's Mercy and Splitting.

[D4rkh0rus]

How does it work?

Does the first shot get a crit, while the second one doesn't? or do both get crits?

[Feilith]

I would treat this exactly a manyshot, with only letting the first arrow crit.

But I'd allow Manyshot and Splitting to split to land 8 arrows (I'm not sure if that's the right number someone might need to check).

[Ketiara]

If splitting was decided on the SAME Roll as the first arrow id let it use hunters mercy.

[TypoNinja]

Splitting splits every arrow fired into two, but requires a second attack roll for the second arrow.

While it never actually says in the enchantment, you don't want to allow one time effects/precision damage to be applied to the extra arrow. It gets out of control fast if you do.

A 11/6/1 attack with Rapidshot goes 11/11/6/1, which with splitting goes 11/11/11/11/6/6/1/1 (ignoring the to hit penalty for the moment). This is superior to TWF which only goes 11/11/6/6/1/1, and didn't cost three feats, or a second enchanted weapon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Splitting splits every arrow fired into two, but requires a second attack roll for the second arrow.

While it never actually says in the enchantment, you don't want to allow one time effects/precision damage to be applied to the extra arrow. It gets out of control fast if you do.

A 11/6/1 attack with Rapidshot goes 11/11/6/1, which with splitting goes 11/11/11/11/6/6/1/1 (ignoring the to hit penalty for the moment). This is superior to TWF which only goes 11/11/6/6/1/1, and didn't cost three feats, or a second enchanted weapon.

Archery needs the help. Machine gunning the target with arrows is the only way arrows are going to reach serious damage figures on anything approaching the order of two handing a melee weapon. Even two weapon fighting rapidly outstrips it if you're willing to make the necessary investments.

That said, the interaction between these is clear. Hunter's mercy affects the caster not his arrow and says that his next attack with a bow is automatically a confirmed critical hit if it strikes the target. Since splitting creates multiple attacks only the first gets to auto-crit.

[Phelix-Mu]

Archery needs the help. Machine gunning the target with arrows is the only way arrows are going to reach serious damage figures on anything approaching the order of two handing a melee weapon. Even two weapon fighting rapidly outstrips it if you're willing to make the necessary investments.

And this reality makes me wonder if, for my Archer class, I shouldn't just give Archer a Projectile Weapon Damage Progression, similar to the monk's unarmed damage progression. That and crit range/multiplier boosting are the two things currently on my radar. And some kind of way to get around the material-based DR thing...sheesh.

It's pretty pathetic that any concept can be more dependent on a magical weapon than even the generic melee concept. Very sad.

[D4rkh0rus]

Archery needs the help. Machine gunning the target with arrows is the only way arrows are going to reach serious damage figures on anything approaching the order of two handing a melee weapon. Even two weapon fighting rapidly outstrips it if you're willing to make the necessary investments.

That said, the interaction between these is clear. Hunter's mercy affects the caster not his arrow and says that his next attack with a bow is automatically a confirmed critical hit if it strikes the target. Since splitting creates multiple attacks only the first gets to auto-crit.


How would I go about convincing a DM that archery is weaker than melee? Like any build that doesnt include crazy maths. just simple I move into enemy tarrasque and whack it into submission x times.

[Emperor Tippy]

And this reality makes me wonder if, for my Archer class, I shouldn't just give Archer a Projectile Weapon Damage Progression, similar to the monk's unarmed damage progression. That and crit range/multiplier boosting are the two things currently on my radar. And some kind of way to get around the material-based DR thing...sheesh.

It's pretty pathetic that any concept can be more dependent on a magical weapon than even the generic melee concept. Very sad.

Factotum 11/ Targetteer Fighter 4/ Martial Monk 2/ Rogue 1/ Swordsage 2

That makes a decent non magical (well mostly, you can ignore the Factotum's spells just fine) Archer. So look at that and mostly just cram it all into one 20 level class.

I went a different rout for my archery class but the above works pretty well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How would I go about convincing a DM that archery is weaker than melee? Like any build that doesnt include crazy maths. just simple I move into enemy tarrasque and whack it into submission x times.

Without math? You can't. Or at least you can't do it from a factual standpoint and have to rely on your own charisma and persuasiveness.

Here's a really simple proof though.

In both instances we'll use a fighter to eliminate class bias. Level 12 because that's supposedly the sweet spot for most groups (a little arbitrary, I know). We'll also use the elite array for abilities to minimize build variance and apply the level bonuses to the primary ability; strength for the melee and dex for the archer. We'll use the MiC's recommendations for basic, level-appropriate equipment; +2 weapon and +2 ability booster for the primary. Finally, the target AC outlined by the MM is equal to 13+CR so our target AC is 25.

Melee:

Str 20.

BAB 12 +5 str +2 weapon = +19 attack bonus. Full attack +19/+14/+9.

greatsword: 2d6=7; 7 + 7str +2 weapon = 16 damage per hit.

Comparing full attack to AC for weighted damage values:

75%/50%/25% = 12/8/4 = 24 damage per round on average, 48 for all hits, 63 max.



Ranged:

Dex 20, Str 14.

Full attack is unchanged.

C. Longbow: 1d8=4.5; 4.5 + 2str +2 weapon = 8.5 damage per hit.

75%/50%/25% = 6.375/4.25/2.125 = 12.75 damage per round on average, 25-26 for all hits, 36 max.


At nearly zero optimization the two hander does nearly twice as much damage on average. Now lets add -one- feat to each side. Power attack for the melee and rapid shot for the archer.

Archer; extra attack, damage unchanged: +17/+17/+12/+7 = 65%/65%/40%/15% = 5.525/5.525/3.4/1.275 = 15.725 damage per round, 34 for all hits, 48 max.

Melee; same full attack at -2, 4 extra damage per hit; +17/+12/+7 = 65%/40%/15% = 13/8/3 = 24 damage per round, 60 for all hits, 75 max.

The melee is still ahead by more than 50% on average.

High op will eliminate the penalty to the melee's attack and allow PA to generate enormous damage even before you start adding in multipliers. There's no equivalent to these options for ranged attackers but there are a number of ways to generate more attacks.

Ultimately for archery to remain competitive it -must- generate extra attacks to keep up with two-handing's big hits.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ultimately for archery to remain competitive it -must- generate extra attacks to keep up with two-handing's big hits.

The aim of my archery class will be more of a "one hit, one kill" concept, since the machine gun thing already is well-covered (and a rather irritating, meme-defying archetype, in my mind). I'll have to add in some kind of precision damage, no doubt, and have it be more broadly applicable than, say, Sneak Attack.

I think I'll mostly achieve this by a combo of increasing crit range and multiplier and granting class abilities that allow it to find weak points even in creatures that don't have weak points. Don't know how I'm going to fluff that, but I'll probably just file it under "it's awesome, therefor it's in." More of a sniper-type thing going on than a roving machine gunner. Not that you couldn't still pump out a good number of attacks, which I'll have to balance against the big damage/shot aspect of the class.

[D4rkh0rus]

The aim of my archery class will be more of a "one hit, one kill" concept, since the machine gun thing already is well-covered (and a rather irritating, meme-defying archetype, in my mind). I'll have to add in some kind of precision damage, no doubt, and have it be more broadly applicable than, say, Sneak Attack.

I think I'll mostly achieve this by a combo of increasing crit range and multiplier and granting class abilities that allow it to find weak points even in creatures that don't have weak points. Don't know how I'm going to fluff that, but I'll probably just file it under "it's awesome, therefor it's in." More of a sniper-type thing going on than a roving machine gunner. Not that you couldn't still pump out a good number of attacks, which I'll have to balance against the big damage/shot aspect of the class.

Id like to see that class phelix. and yes, crit range and multiplier will work just as good as adding precision dmg

On the fluff for a weak point finder you could make it something like the arrows dissapear for a brief instant before hitting the target (some well thought eye trick? idk) When an enemy is flat footed... yada yada yada.


Anyways. thanks for all the comments d: from what I gather, Splitting doesnt mix with hunter's mercy... but it Should.. if only to get into the same leagues as the uberchargers...

And thanks for the mathematical analysis kelb, im gonna save it to show it to my dm hehehe.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anyways. thanks for all the comments d: from what I gather, Splitting doesnt mix with hunter's mercy... but it Should.. if only to get into the same leagues as the uberchargers...

That's not really true. Autoconfirming a large number of crits can cause the opposite problem; the archer's damage quickly outstripping anything less than a pimped out ubercharger.

The one-shot, one-kill thing -can- be done but it's very difficult and the character won't be able to do much else.


And thanks for the mathematical analysis kelb, im gonna save it to show it to my dm hehehe.

NP. Keep in mind, however, that it's a -very- simplified analysis. It barely accounts for any kind of optimization at all and it ignores the influence of critical hits.

[TuggyNE]

The aim of my archery class will be more of a "one hit, one kill" concept, since the machine gun thing already is well-covered (and a rather irritating, meme-defying archetype, in my mind). I'll have to add in some kind of precision damage, no doubt, and have it be more broadly applicable than, say, Sneak Attack.

I think I'll mostly achieve this by a combo of increasing crit range and multiplier and granting class abilities that allow it to find weak points even in creatures that don't have weak points. Don't know how I'm going to fluff that, but I'll probably just file it under "it's awesome, therefor it's in." More of a sniper-type thing going on than a roving machine gunner. Not that you couldn't still pump out a good number of attacks, which I'll have to balance against the big damage/shot aspect of the class.

I'd suggest giving an ability that's usable as a move action and grants +Xd6 precision damage to the next shot against that target (probably a d6 for every class level), maybe only useful outside 30 feet.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd suggest giving an ability that's usable as a move action and grants +Xd6 precision damage to the next shot against that target (probably a d6 for every class level), maybe only useful outside 30 feet.

I rather like this idea. Will credit you if this bit of homebrew ever rises to the top of my To-Do List (and then, by a seemingly impossible coincidence, actually is completed).

[TuggyNE]

I rather like this idea. Will credit you if this bit of homebrew ever rises to the top of my To-Do List (and then, by a seemingly impossible coincidence, actually is completed).

Heh. :smallcool:

Yeah, I have some forever-pending homebrew too, I know those feels.