Wands and metamagic RAW

[sjeshin]

How would the metamagic feat divine metamagic - persist, and wands work? What about other metamagic reducers? Does this let you put persistant divine might on a wand? (It's ok I want it for my rogue not my cleric :smallsmile:)

I know you can apply metamagic feats to items, but can you utilize metamagic reducers during the process? And how is the cost affected?

Edit: Looking stricktly for help finding rules for this. DM opinion won't help me with my DM. Ty for the reply though.

[Stegyre]

(I'm assuming this is an opinion question, not a RAW question.)

How would the metamagic feat divine metamagic - persist, and wands work?
It wouldn't, because I would apply the final spell level without the benefit of any reducers (which I would not allow to stack, in any case), and the final level for persist will always be higher than the 4th spell level limit for a wand.

You could do it in a staff, but you would have to calculate the cost of creating it at the unreduced spell level. Having the availability of DMM or other reducers may allow you to provide the spell casting you are putting into the staff/wand/device/whatever, but I would not allow them to reduce the cost of creating the device.

I do not think the RAW rules for magic items directly address this point. The rules for psionic items are slightly better, requiring one to use a higher power level in the calculation when using a higher than required ML.

[Zweisteine]

It would not work. Divine Metamagic can be applied to castings of spells, which almost certainly does not transfer over to crafting items.

According to a few (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a) articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041214a) over (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041221a) on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041228a) the (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050104a) Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050111a) website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050118a), you don't actually cast the spell. All it says it that you must prepare the spell each day you work on the item, and that the spell is consumed. This means that you can not apply Divine Metamagic to the magic item.

If you could reduce the metamagic adjustment enough (only by 2, if you're going for a 0 level spell, like detect magic), you theoretically could make a wand of a persistent spell (assuming there are rules for making normal metamagic items, like a wand of extended detect magic).

Of course, your DM might rule differently. If so, don't complain, it's too cheesy to bother. (Because the wand of persistent detect magic doesn't have any metamagic reduction, it would be trying to hold a level 6 spell, it would probably just explode when you try to use it, or something.)

So by RAW, Divine Metamagic probably can't be used when crafting items (the actual text of the feat doesn't truly specify that you have to cast the spell at all, but any other interpretation is probably silly).

[Dr. Azkur]

I got a bit confused by the question, so my post might not be helpful but you can apply Enlarge, Widen and Empower to magic items as a Hellfire Warlock for free (times/day = CHA mod).

[Seer_of_Heart]

(I'm assuming this is an opinion question, not a RAW question.)

It wouldn't, because I would apply the final spell level without the benefit of any reducers (which I would not allow to stack, in any case), and the final level for persist will always be higher than the 4th spell level limit for a wand.

You could do it in a staff, but you would have to calculate the cost of creating it at the unreduced spell level. Having the availability of DMM or other reducers may allow you to provide the spell casting you are putting into the staff/wand/device/whatever, but I would not allow them to reduce the cost of creating the device.

I do not think the RAW rules for magic items directly address this point. The rules for psionic items are slightly better, requiring one to use a higher power level in the calculation when using a higher than required ML.

Skimming the srd about metamagic appears to say by RAW only heighten spell actually affects magic items.


With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

However, only heighten spell actually changes the spell level. Other metamagic feats increase the level of the slot needed but not the level of the spell itself.

[Captnq]

I spent a whole mess of time on this one for The Spell Book.

You cannot reduce the metamagic feats because the item isn't alive.

You can make a maximized wand of magic missiles, for example. Or a Fell Drain Sonic Snap. While the LEVEL of the spell remains the same for CASTING purposes, the actual level of the spell in whatever it is plus the full price of metamagic. If it would occupy a 5th level slot, it's not going in a wand.

And as a DM, I do not allow customized staves for just this reason. I ran the figures and it just gets disgusting. Every player would be running around with one spell staffs all the time, because the staffs use YOUR Caster Level. Much cheaper then buying a wand that's a magic missile at CL 9. It's broken. Only use official RAW staves. Trust me on this. The math is horrificly broken.

[sjeshin]

A lot of the replies on this that i'm getting make sense, but at the same time they don't seem to be rooted in rules. Saying divine metamagic can only be applied to spells is silly, all of the metas say that. Acoording to the DMG you can apply metamagic feats into items. Not just heighten spell. I can't find anywhere in the rules that says anything about "living" being required to apply metamagic, but that again is rediculous. Example: lich.

I hate to post a question and just refute answers, but no one is quoting rules in the text so it just seems like speculation and opinion. And, as someone has already said, heighten spell is the ONLY metamagic that actually changes the level of the spell. Spell slot, and spell level are NOT the same, and the DMG only mentions spell levels.

I guess there really is no real text basis for how to rule this. Unless someone can quote text that says otherwise.

[KillianHawkeye]

FYI, Divine Metamagic is not actually a metamagic feat. It is a divine feat which augments the way you can use metamagic. Thus, there is no possible way to build it into a magic item. The entire premise of your question is flawed.

[Urpriest]

Skimming the srd about metamagic appears to say by RAW only heighten spell actually affects magic items.



However, only heighten spell actually changes the spell level. Other metamagic feats increase the level of the slot needed but not the level of the spell itself.

This is essentially the issue. The examples that exist back up that designer intent was that the adjusted spell slot would be the spell level for the purposes of crafting, but the designers, as usual, forgot how metamagic worked, and wrote the rules as dependent on the spell level, not the spell slot. This means that only heighten actually changes matters, and that even without DMM you can make a wand of a persistent spell, for example.

[Zweisteine]

The entire premise of your question is flawed.

It really isn't. There are magic items that require feats (outside of item creation feats) to make. In fact, the first example I can think of uses a divine feat, Extra turning (the item is a Nightstick).

That said, it wouldn't actually be unreasonable to have Divine Metamagic Rods. They'd probably be limited in uses per day, and they would take turn attempts to activate, but not as many as the feat version would. Maybe three uses per day, and takes one less turn attempt than the metamagic feat's spell level adjustment. As an additional bonus, if the holder has the prerequisite feat (ex. a Cleric with Extend spell using a Rod of Divine Extend), it might also grant the full benefit of the divine metamagic feat. That version might not have the normal 3/day effect, and would never exist for more advanced metamagic feats (maybe limited to +3 or lower, or maybe +2 or lower).

[KillianHawkeye]

It really isn't. There are magic items that require feats (outside of item creation feats) to make. In fact, the first example I can think of uses a divine feat, Extra turning (the item is a Nightstick).

No. This is something completely different than what the OP is asking about. You need Extra Turning to make a nightstick because the item grants extra turn attempts. You're essentially putting your feat into an item for somebody else to use.

The OP is asking about crafting a wand with a metamagic'd spell and building in a permanent spell level reduction from DMM into the item as if it was itself a metamagic feat. DMM is NOT a metamagic feat, so it cannot be applied to a wand like that. Thus, his premise is flawed.