The Urge to Theurge (Build Feedback)

[MidgetMarine]

(Sorry for the terrible pun, I'm a sucker for bad jokes, and I just HAD to do it)
Hey, GiTP, I've been working on a character build recently.
I've got a campaign coming up, with a group with whom I've done several campaigns before.
This time, the DM challenged each player to "Break their mold", and change up the archetype of character that we each tend to play.
I'm known as the Party's Bruiser Melee/Melee Gish.
The guy who plays casters is playing a Frenzied Berserker.
The mobility player is being a support Cleric.
The support player is being a Binder/Wizard/Anima Mage.
And I've decided to be about as opposite to Bruiser Melee as I can be.
A Mystic Theurge.
Now, I know that Mystic Theurge isn't that great (Unless we're talking about the Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge Build) So I've been looking at some handbooks and I've come up with the following build. (Note, the DM allows you to enter a prestige class if you'd gain the pre-requisites at that level, if you would be gaining them anyways. So though I don't have 6 points in those skills when I enter, I'd be getting them anyways, no matter what. So I can enter at 3) I'd love some feedback on it.


To explain: I use Precocious Apprentice to be able to cast the second level spell arcane spells early.
And I use Improved Sigil: Krau on 1st level Archivist Spells to get the second level divine spells early.

The Build:
Race: Illumian (Naenkrau)
Ability Scores: Str: 8, Dex: 8, Con:12, Int: 19, Cha: 10, Wis: 10

Level 1: Wizard 1: [Trading Scribe Scroll for a feat] Precocious Apprentice, Improved Sigil: Krau
Level 2: Archivist 1
Level 3: Mystic Theurge 1 Spellcasting Prodigy (Int)
...
Level 12: Mystic Theurge 10
(The DM is letting me continue to take Mystic Theurge as if it had more levels)
Level 20: Mystic Theurge /18/

The final result is a Dual Caster who only depends on one ability (INT), casts spells as if he were a 19th level wizard AND a 19th level Archivist
And has A caster level of 21 for wizard and 21 for Archivist as well.
(The +2 Caster level bonus from the Krau symbol + 19 caster levels from both classes.)

I'm actually really proud of this, as I came up with the concept on my own, though I'm sure somebody else has done it.
But I wanted to make sure it's as powerful as I think it is before I sit down and play it.
Thanks for your time, Midgetmarine.

[sideswipe]

it is in no way an overpowered build. but with your home brew it is very good.

your main problem will be money, wizards and archivists are both expensive. i heavily suggest you take collegiate wizard (same page as precocious apprentice ), you will need to take a flaw to do this so look in unearthed arcana and take a flaw to get the extra 1st level feat as this needs to be taken at 1st level.

it gives you 6+int first level spells instead of 3+int when you are level 1 and you get 4 spells from levelling up instead of two.

this will save you 10's of thousands of gold (if your DM allows you free spells when you level up which he can not allow as its technically a wizard thing) and at the very least give you an extra 3 1st level spells. it also gives you +2 to knowledge arcana checks.

[MidgetMarine]

it is in no way an overpowered build. but with your home brew it is very good.

your main problem will be money, wizards and archivists are both expensive. i heavily suggest you take collegiate wizard (same page as precocious apprentice ), you will need to take a flaw to do this so look in unearthed arcana and take a flaw to get the extra 1st level feat as this needs to be taken at 1st level.

it gives you 6+int first level spells instead of 3+int when you are level 1 and you get 4 spells from levelling up instead of two.

this will save you 10's of thousands of gold (if your DM allows you free spells when you level up which he can not allow as its technically a wizard thing) and at the very least give you an extra 3 1st level spells. it also gives you +2 to knowledge arcana checks.

My DM has a rule where you can trade in a class feature for a feat.
So I could just take that at first level and then trade in my second Scribe Scroll or Dark Knowledge for the Improved Sigil.

[bekeleven]

If you use Improved Sigil (Krau) on a spell that's both a first-level wizard spell and a first-level archivist spell (endure elements or whatever), you can cut precocious apprentice out of your build. Had to use that for a really dumb quad 9s build once.

[sideswipe]

My DM has a rule where you can trade in a class feature for a feat.
So I could just take that at first level and then trade in my second Scribe Scroll or Dark Knowledge for the Improved Sigil.

nice house rule. though that could be horribly abused :)

you want to lower the cost of your wizard half as much as possible. since because you can learn druid, paladin, ranger, shugenja (couple of unique spells) and blackguard spells.
there may be more but thats off my head.
that will cost a lot of gold. especially for high level spells.

[sideswipe]

If you use Improved Sigil (Krau) on a spell that's both a first-level wizard spell and a first-level archivist spell (endure elements or whatever), you can cut precocious apprentice out of your build. Had to use that for a really dumb quad 9s build once.

I have never seen a quad 9's build. i read one where someone got to 9 arc 9 divine 9 psi 8 initiator.

could you possibly link the quad 9's?

[MidgetMarine]

If you use Improved Sigil (Krau) on a spell that's both a first-level wizard spell and a first-level archivist spell (endure elements or whatever), you can cut precocious apprentice out of your build. Had to use that for a really dumb quad 9s build once.

Oh wow, thanks. :D
I never thought of that.
That's a way better idea.

So, I'd be better off taking Improved Sigil: Krau and Collegiate Wizard at level 1.

And yeah, he regretted having that homebrew rule a bit last campaign when the caster did some metamagic-getting-shenanigans.

[bekeleven]

I have never seen a quad 9's build. i read one where someone got to 9 arc 9 divine 9 psi 8 initiator.I think quad 9s are possible - try hatchling Phaerimm, Ur-Priest, theurges, La Buyoff, etc - but this particular build was a foux-quad 9. I was designing summoners, and this one ended up able to summon as all 4 core casters, while actually only having 2 casting progressions. Had Wizard and Druid 9s with access to Nexus Method (gives spontaneous SM for wizard) and the Summoner Domain for the druid to ape Cleric summoning.

And of course, all tier 1s are turing complete (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16779681&postcount=80) so it's not even realistically that useful.

[sideswipe]

Oh wow, thanks. :D
I never thought of that.
That's a way better idea.

So, I'd be better off taking Improved Sigil: Krau and Collegiate Wizard at level 1.

And yeah, he regretted having that homebrew rule a bit last campaign when the caster did some metamagic-getting-shenanigans.

the only thing with that is you will have to have the same spell in both spellbooks. it wastes a bit of money in my opinion.

[bekeleven]

the only thing with that is you will have to have the same spell in both spellbooks. it wastes a bit of money in my opinion.

Clearly, taking a second feat is worth the couple hundred GP this would save.

[sideswipe]

Clearly, taking a second feat is worth the couple hundred GP this would save.

yes but precocious apprentice also gives you an extra 2nd level spell slot permanently. which when you can cast second level spells you can use to prepare any of them. this at low levels is really nice. so if they are starting around levels 3-6 this is very useful.

though i agree the extra feat is better than the extra 1st level spell you would get.

[MidgetMarine]

the only thing with that is you will have to have the same spell in both spellbooks. it wastes a bit of money in my opinion.

"Choose a number of spells with verbal components that you can cast equal to the number of power sigils you have. When you cast one of the chosen spells, the spell's effective level is increased by 1"

I don't think I have to.
I'll have 2 power sigils.
So two spells.
One from Wizard.
One from Archivist.
It doesn't specify that they have to be from the same class.

[bekeleven]

"Choose a number of spells with verbal components that you can cast equal to the number of power sigils you have. When you cast one of the chosen spells, the spell's effective level is increased by 1"

I don't think I have to.
I'll have 2 power sigils.
So two spells.
One from Wizard.
One from Archivist.
It doesn't specify that they have to be from the same class.

You still have to share a spell.

Unless you have a level of wizard and archivist when you take the feat at level 1.

[MidgetMarine]

Oh, I see.
Well, that should be easy enough.