Not so different after all? *#938 spoilers*

[ben-zayb]

While it isn't explicitly said by Elan, did he just compare both Tarquin's and Julio's theatric style causing unnecessary collateral damage? (shattered window glasses, for one)

Julio didn't mention Tarquin's similarity in appearance to Elan, didn't inform Elan of a possible means to communicate with Haley, arrived just in the nick of time to save them, and had his ship travel just around the speed of plot instead of ahead of time.... just because it makes for a better story. Compare that to all the unnecessary moves Tarquin made recently just to make his story better.

EXTRA ADDENDUM: Understandably, this might be the core tenet of the Dashing Swordsman. I wonder if Tarquin also had a grip of this PrC or some similarly Cha-powered PrC (he did deflect Elans attacks with counterpuns after all), probably from a compendium to the tune of Tome of Panache or something.

[Hurkle]

While I agree with all of your points, I do feel the need to point that the ship moves at the speed of plot not because Julio orders it to, it just happens to only ever been able to go as fast as it needs to go. Julio has no control over it. At least that's how I interpreted it.

[Sir_Leorik]

While it isn't explicitly said by Elan, did he just compare both Tarquin's and Julio's theatric style causing unnecessary collateral damage? (shattered window glasses, for one)

Julio didn't mention Tarquin's similarity in appearance to Elan, didn't inform Elan of a possible means to communicate with Haley, arrived just in the nick of time to save them, and had his ship travel just around the speed of plot instead of ahead of time.... just because it makes for a better story. Compare that to all the unnecessary moves Tarquin made recently just to make his story better.

EXTRA ADDENDUM: Understandably, this might be the core tenet of the Dashing Swordsman. I wonder if Tarquin also had a grip of this PrC or some similarly Cha-powered PrC (he did deflect Elans attacks with counterpuns after all), probably from a compendium to the tune of Tome of Panache or something.

I think the difference is that Julio Scoundrel wouldn't deliberately hurt an innocent person, just to make them experience an interesting story. He has caused complications for Elan, by neglecting to mention important details (like the fact that he was a wanted criminal in Azure City) but he would never break someone's arm to get another character to submit.

[ben-zayb]

I think the difference is that Julio Scoundrel wouldn't deliberately hurt an innocent person, just to make them experience an interesting story. He has caused complications for Elan, by neglecting to mention important details (like the fact that he was a wanted criminal in Azure City) but he would never break someone's arm to get another character to submit.Actually, I was talking more about Tarquin's methods as seen by his colleagues. Like how Miron, Malack, and Laurin. They had to put up with unnecessary stuff when they could just do it using their usual Godlike methods (being Sorcerer, Cleric, and Psion, respectively) or just using the most efficient approach to things like Jacinda offing Roy.

However, he did know that Elan needs to save a woman from danger, so the potential threat of at least one person being hurt as they speak is there. I agree that he doesn't deliberately hurt an innocent person, but does he deliberately risk someone being hurt for the time being to make a dramatic entrance?

[Keltest]

Actually, I was talking more about Tarquin's methods as seen by his colleagues. Like how Miron, Malack, and Laurin. They had to put up with unnecessary stuff when they could just do it using their usual Godlike methods (being Sorcerer, Cleric, and Psion, respectively) or just using the most efficient approach to things like Jacinda offing Roy.

However, he did know that Elan needs to save a woman from danger, so the potential threat of at least one person being hurt as they speak is there. I agree that he doesn't deliberately hurt an innocent person, but does he deliberately risk someone being hurt for the time being to make a dramatic entrance?

Just remember: its not a dramatic entrance if hes too late.

[rbetieh]

Actually, I was talking more about Tarquin's methods as seen by his colleagues. Like how Miron, Malack, and Laurin. They had to put up with unnecessary stuff when they could just do it using their usual Godlike methods (being Sorcerer, Cleric, and Psion, respectively) or just using the most efficient approach to things like Jacinda offing Roy.

However, he did know that Elan needs to save a woman from danger, so the potential threat of at least one person being hurt as they speak is there. I agree that he doesn't deliberately hurt an innocent person, but does he deliberately risk someone being hurt for the time being to make a dramatic entrance?

I kind of feel like he was helping Elan to **Be a Hero**. The hero needs to save the damsel, not warn her.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, it kind of looks like we can classify Tarquin, Elan, and Julio as the same kind of scum, just in different degrees. Vermin, the lot of them. Worse than Belkar. And no, I'm not joking, which is why I didn't use blue text.

[Benthesquid]

Yes. (My reading of) Elan's point is that he's coming to realize that the people in 'real' life are more important than the stories , and that he should stop doing "whatever it [takes] to make things as dramatic as possible," and start putting more focus on how his actions affect people.

[NerdyKris]

I think Elan had his realization because he did realize that Julio put Haley in danger for the sake of the story. Just like Tarquin does. There's really no difference between the two. He's realizing that doing so hurts people sometimes, and he is just like Tarquin, even if his collateral damage is far smaller.

Julio risked Haley's life for no good reason other than making a good story. And Elan is realizing that not only is Tarquin wrong, but the he is also wrong the many times he's acted the same way Julio just did.


I kind of feel like he was helping Elan to **Be a Hero**. The hero needs to save the damsel, not warn her.

You mean EXACTLY the way Tarquin wanted to murder his friends to help him "be a hero"?

[Evandar]

Julio was operating on the assumption that everything will be okay as long as Elan sticks to the script.

Neglecting to mention that stuff made perfect sense to him because he knew in his own mind that Elan was going to leap in at the last moment, save the damsel, thwart the villain and be a hero in general.

Whether it makes sense to anyone else (including the readers) is a different matter altogether. It does seem like the laws of drama have some sort of influence on the Stickverse.

[NerdyKris]

Julio was operating on the assumption that everything will be okay as long as Elan sticks to the script.


Assuming you have the right script. Which we just saw a very clear and explosive example of someone who thought the script was something else, resulting in attempts to murder everyone involved. Or earlier, when Miko was so sure she was right that she executed a man for crimes that would involve a jail sentence at most.

Elan's realization was that doing so, even when you have "good intentions" is no different than Tarquin doing it to become a legend.

[SaintRidley]

This is why Julio is neutral and Tarquin is evil. Julio doesn't actively seek to hurt people in furtherance of the story, but if it makes the story better, so be it. Tarquin's constitutionally incapable of furthering a story without killing people, and he actively and happily does it.

As for Law vs. Chaos... Julio's style is freewheeling and what makes a good story depends entirely on the moment. Tarquin, on the other hand, believes there is only one way to make a good story. Period.

[Kish]

Indeed, Julio did actually cause harm, by shooting down some of Azure City's defenses right before the hobgoblins got there.

He's not a monster like Tarquin. But he's not a hero, either, and one of the points of this book has been Elan learning that blithe unconcern for collateral damage is not cool.

[Bulldog Psion]

With this view, however, shouldn't Julio and Elan be reclassified as chaotic evil? I think that a case can be made that they are. Tarquin thought he was improving the story with his murderous stuff. Julio and Elan also thought they were improving the story with stuff like allowing Nale free reign, and so on.

[ben-zayb]

Yeah, although I'm not sure if it's just Julio's tendencies to be Chaotic, or that he simply ascribes to a Blue-Orange morality. (maybe both?)

As everyone else said, Julio wants a story to flow better leaning on a particular direction, which may or may not be the direction that Elan (and the Order in general) prefers.

EDIT: Just a heads-up, guys. I discourage everyone into deeply discussing what is Evil or Chaotic or whatnot. This is just a fun fridge logic thread about similarities of Tarquin, Julio, and Elan, from Elan's point of view.

[Ridureyu]

Yes, it kind of looks like we can classify Tarquin, Elan, and Julio as the same kind of scum, just in different degrees. Vermin, the lot of them. Worse than Belkar. And no, I'm not joking, which is why I didn't use blue text.

And it's all the fault of Roy, who is secretly in league with Xykon.

QUESTION: Is it theoretically possible for a comic to be posted without people over-analyzing it and using it to vociferously condemn somebody? I feel that if there were a wordless strip of everybody eating pudding, someone would post about how V ate the pudding in an evil, callous manner.

[Bulldog Psion]

And it's all the fault of Roy, who is secretly in league with Xykon.

QUESTION: Is it theoretically possible for a comic to be posted without people over-analyzing it and using it to vociferously condemn somebody? I feel that if there were a wordless strip of everybody eating pudding, someone would post about how V ate the pudding in an evil, callous manner.

He probably would eat it in an evil, callous manner. :smallwink:

With that said, one could certainly argue that Elan has realized he was never the good twin. He was actually another evil twin, just with a happy, smiley face pasted over the grinning skull of malice beneath. Now he has the chance for a redemption arc alongside V's redemption arc and Durk Malackssen's fall arc.

[mucat]

And it's all the fault of Roy, who is secretly in league with Xykon.

QUESTION: Is it theoretically possible for a comic to be posted without people over-analyzing it and using it to vociferously condemn somebody? I feel that if there were a wordless strip of everybody eating pudding, someone would post about how V ate the pudding in an evil, callous manner.
I'm pretty sure Bulldog's comments will make more sense if you assume he doesn't believe in blue text. :smallwink:

(And isn't above lying about it, if it will make a better story post.)

[Keltest]

I'm pretty sure Bulldog's comments will make more sense if you assume he doesn't believe in blue text. :smallwink:

(And isn't above lying about it, is it will make a better story post.)

Im not sure if hes really good or really bad at sarcasm.

[ORione]

With this view, however, shouldn't Julio and Elan be reclassified as chaotic evil? I think that a case can be made that they are. Tarquin thought he was improving the story with his murderous stuff. Julio and Elan also thought they were improving the story with stuff like allowing Nale free reign, and so on.

Yeah, but Elan's realizing that people are more important than stories. I think that indicates an alignment shift. He's probably Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies now.

[NerdyKris]

I really can't tell who's joking and who's not in this thread anymore.

[rbetieh]

Well Julio is a privateer. That really isn't the business of good guys. Of course, there is also his tendancy to use the "my boy" phrase, as Tarquin does....

[Tiiba]

Why do we need to discuss this, anyway? We knew that Julio is not good. Says right there: Scoundrel. Capital S. Diacritics won't save you from critics.

[Saturosian]

OP: I had similar thoughts. I think Elan got just a little disillusioned by his second father figure just now. Of course, I'm sure it seems more extreme to him than it actually is, since he's probably already emotionally drained from the character growth he just went through--he accepted it as necessary, but it couldn't have been easy for Elan to let his dad fall like that. And then moments later, his second father figure is spouting things that sound, well, just like his old dad.

It's probably not Julio's fault that he does some of the things he does (specifically with the Mechane, that's out of his hands), and anyway, isn't it Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15667889#post15667889) that Julio is neutral, anyway? He isn't constrained to be a hero for the sake of being good, after all.
SSDTs shows:
Julio had no intention of giving back the diamond, as I recall, until he found out that people's lives were literally at stake. If it had just been an expensive jewel, you bet he would have been out of there with it. That sounds fairly neutral to me.

My point being: Elan is certainly going to disagree with Julio: Elan is exceedingly good, while Julio is at best on the good end of neutral.

Guys, I've figured it out:
Julio is behind Team Tarquin's plan--he's waiting until they consolidate the whole continent, building up his fan club all the time, so when he sweeps in to "liberate" the continent later, it's that much easier for him to assume the rule in Team Tarquin's place! :smalleek:

[Amphiox]

The way I interpet it, the difference between Elan, Julio, and Tarquin is this:

Elan loves stories and understands them, and can instinctively see where and how he can (or should not) act to make a story more compelling. But, if a situation arises where he has to choose between the story and people (assuming he recognizes that the choice is there, as sometimes he doesn't notice), he will choose the people. Elan is good.

Julio loves stories and understands them, and can instinctively see where and how he can act to make a story more compelling. If a situation arises where he can choose between the story and people, within certain limits of inconvenience to the people, he will choose the story. Julio is neutral.

Tarquin loves stories and understands them, and can instinctively see where and how he can act to make a story more compelling. But rather that wait for opportunities where he can act to make the story more interesting to arise naturally with the narrative, he will actively try to force the story to go where he wants it to, and doesn't care how many lives he has to ruin along the way to make it so. Tarquin is evil.

[Ridureyu]

He probably would eat it in an evil, callous manner. :smallwink:

With that said, one could certainly argue that Elan has realized he was never the good twin. He was actually another evil twin, just with a happy, smiley face pasted over the grinning skull of malice beneath. Now he has the chance for a redemption arc alongside V's redemption arc and Durk Malackssen's fall arc.



The only good character is Miko!

[Jay R]

I kind of feel like he was helping Elan to **Be a Hero**.

So he was doing what Tarquin wanted to do. Got it.


QUESTION: Is it theoretically possible for a comic to be posted without people over-analyzing it and using it to vociferously condemn somebody?

Well, I wasn't here when it showed up, so I have to ask. Did people try to over-analyze and vociferously condemn Fruit-Pie the Sorcerer?

If they did, I have to go find that thread. That would be freakin' hilarious.

[Yendor]

Well, I wasn't here when it showed up, so I have to ask. Did people try to over-analyze and vociferously condemn Fruit-Pie the Sorcerer?
If he'd appeared more recently, they probably would have. Fancy exploiting an innocent goblin's food allergies like that.

[Scow2]

So he was doing what Tarquin wanted to do. Got it.
Which isn't an inherently bad thing. Outcomes and methods matter.

[rbetieh]

So he was doing what Tarquin wanted to do. Got it.



Well, the Hero gets the girl...exactly what does the stool pigeon get? Not that I have ever disputed that there is much of a difference between *I dont care what you do, as long as you go about it the right way* and *Its not whether you win or lose, it's whether you look good doing it*...but it just might have been in Elans best romantic interest to save a damsel, right?

[David Argall]

Well Julio is a privateer. That really isn't the business of good guys. Of course, there is also his tendancy to use the "my boy" phrase, as Tarquin does....
Scoundrel is a pirate, not a privateer [as far as we know, tho it was common enough to be both]. A privateer is an informal part of a country's navy, authorized to attack certain shipping and not others. Of course, he often acted like a pirate, attacking anything he thought he could profit from, but in theory he is not a pirate [unless he got caught by the wrong side, who would usually hang him as a pirate.]
It's not unlikely Scoundrel was a privateer at times. Any time there was a war he could hire himself out to one side [or both] and gain the benefits of being deemed an honest citizen despite his robberies. But we are not told of any such case.

[Joe the Rat]

This is why Julio is neutral and Tarquin is evil. Julio doesn't actively seek to hurt people in furtherance of the story, but if it makes the story better, so be it. Tarquin's constitutionally incapable of furthering a story without killing people, and he actively and happily does it.

As for Law vs. Chaos... Julio's style is freewheeling and what makes a good story depends entirely on the moment. Tarquin, on the other hand, believes there is only one way to make a good story. Period.

Leaving the morality (Good/Evil) for the moment, let's look at the ethics (Law/Chaos. Yes, that's how they call 'em in the rules). Julio's maniplulations for plot are very much a "what feels right" approach. He's looking at what will make a good story click with his current options, based on the situation at hand. Kid who looks like one of my recurring antagonists shows up blathering about saving the girl he loves from his evil twin? Yeah, he needs a lift. Turns out he's a bard, is crap in a fight, and has no plan for the rescue? Sounds like time for a training montage... and as a bard, he's keyed in to the sense of the dramatic by training. It'll mesh well. Yes, he's taking a gamble on Haley's (and everyone else's, for that matter) life, but it's a gamble, a risk. He comes manipulating narrative quite chaotically, based on the opportunities presented. Reactive.

Tarquin is far more proactive. He's trying to create the story he wants - setting himself up as evil shadow chancelor, so he'll live it up and afterword be remembered in a sweet, sweet epic tale about how awesome a villain he was before he got killed - and he will be remembered, by Nergal! He tries to manipulate events for the story he wants, and rails against things when they fail to follow his desires. The only time we see him really change things up is when he can't manipulate Nale (it's okay, he has a spare son, and can trade off Legacy Villain for Really Awesome Star Wars Parallel), or when he is completely out of options. He believes the story is X, and will make it like X, even if he has to burn down the continent (and cash in a couple of favors) to make it happen.

This actually reminds me of another character with some set assumptions about the story, or if you prefer, destiny. If you remember, Sweet Ever-Lovin' Jelly Bean was quite certain the Twelve Gods had a plan for her, and that she was the only one who could see the truth and stop the Evil, even if it means killing her sworn liege (Shojo) without the benefit of a trial. She was not trying to manipulate the story, she was simply assuming the story was what it was.

Lawful seems more inclined to play the story as they think it should be, Chaos tends to try and "improve" the story as it is.


Indeed, Julio did actually cause harm, by shooting down some of Azure City's defenses right before the hobgoblins got there.

He's not a monster like Tarquin. But he's not a hero, either, and one of the points of this book has been Elan learning that blithe unconcern for collateral damage is not cool.

Indeed. "Actions have Consequences" is a recurring lesson this book. Elan and Vaarsuvius have both learned how the manipulation of reality (magical or narrative) can create significant collateral damage.


QUESTION: Is it theoretically possible for a comic to be posted without people over-analyzing it and using it to vociferously condemn somebody? I feel that if there were a wordless strip of everybody eating pudding, someone would post about how V ate the pudding in an evil, callous manner.
Never!


Well, I wasn't here when it showed up, so I have to ask. Did people try to over-analyze and vociferously condemn Fruit-Pie the Sorcerer?

If they did, I have to go find that thread. That would be freakin' hilarious.Link it if you do. Or just start one, at which point someone else will link to it for you.

[Seward]

Well also, Julian has no stake in the rescue of his antagonist-young-double's sweetie.

Any help he gives improves Haley's odds. He also doesn't know if she CAN be rescued with a warning, where he has a long history of rescuing unwilling brides, etc with skills similar to those he's helping Elan develop.

His plan also has the virtue that he gets to observe the obvious offspring of his B-list villain for future reference, something a Sending doesn't accomplish.

So leaving story behind, any help Julian gives Elan is a favor and all outcomes involving helping Elan are better than inaction. That's behaving pretty freaking nice for a typical "selfish neutral" but given that Julian expects adventure hooks to appear all the time, his instinct would be to go with it and see how it develops and he clearly had a few days to spare with nothing else important happening to divert the Mechane, etc.

Since this minor side-story in his epic seems to be a mentoring role, you get the comment at the end about how he hopes to never meet Elan again....

[Kish]

While I wouldn't go as far as "being dangerously stupid makes you evil," and correspondingly Roy leaving Elan to the bandits was certainly not justified, I do think it makes the story significantly poorer than the story actually presented to say, "Elan's stupidity was never actually harmful, Roy's wanting to leave him to the bandits was indicative of nothing more than Roy having a completely random psychotic break, and Sir Francois had no legitimate grievance against Elan."

And in response to the post that appeared right before this one while I was posting, I will say only that the concept of a "typical selfish neutral" as I see it described on these boards is indistinguishable from my concept of an "amoral non-mustache-twirling evil." No part of the "neutral" alignment is "don't lift a finger for anyone else unless you profit from it."

[NerdyKris]

Well, the Hero gets the girl...exactly what does the stool pigeon get? Not that I have ever disputed that there is much of a difference between *I dont care what you do, as long as you go about it the right way* and *Its not whether you win or lose, it's whether you look good doing it*...but it just might have been in Elans best romantic interest to save a damsel, right?

But again, that's NOT in Haley's best interests. She was at risk of being killed.

Putting someone else at risk so you can look cool is not a nice thing to do. Not saying evil, but it's not nice at all.

[Kish]

...Stool pigeon? You know, words mean things.

[Xelbiuj]

But again, that's NOT in Haley's best interests. She was at risk of being killed.

Putting someone else at risk so you can look cool is not a nice thing to do. Not saying evil, but it's not nice at all.

He went out of his way to teach Elan, give him a free ride to a destination out of his way , and risked his crew by flying over Azure City's defenses . . . why is not letting him use EVERY resource available to him "not a nice thing"?
If that's our standard for good, no one in this comic fits the bill.

[Kish]

He went out of his way to teach Elan, give him a free ride to a destination out of his way , and risked his crew by flying over Azure City's defenses . . . why is not letting him use EVERY resource available to him "not a nice thing"?
If that's our standard for good, no one in this comic fits the bill.
Really? Which resources do you think Roy would not let someone trying to save an innocent life use? Or (pre-vampire) Durkon? Or Haley? Or...

...I could go on, but if I did it would just be a list of all the officially-good characters in the comic, so take it as read.

[Xelbiuj]

Really? Which resources do you think Roy would not let someone trying to save an innocent life use? Or (pre-vampire) Durkon? Or Haley? Or...

...I could go on, but if I did it would just be a list of all the officially-good characters in the comic, so take it as read.

Haley? Her huge stack of gold. Unless it was to save someone she knew, Julio didn't know Haley. In fact, she (rightfully) chose murder over peace with the Thieves Guild. Hell, she chose homicide over simply buying the Bone Golem off Grubbwhatshisface.

Roy? Tough one, he lacks resources to sacrifice. :\
Not like this comic is going to introduce side quests that the heroes aren't going to take.

Not saying they're not good, they are. I'm just saying Julio's failure to mention the wand isn't a jerk move.

[Kish]

Haley? Her huge stack of gold.

The huge stack she got recently from robbing Crystal after she gave up all her money to help the Resistance? Try again.

And yes, I'm aware of what you said, but what you said is wrong: Any good character in the comic* would let someone use a Wand of Sending to warn an innocent who was at risk of being murdered.

*As in, not the officially-Chaotic-Neutral character under discussion: he was more concerned with what would make a good story.

[Copperdragon]

Julio being a jerkass is nothing new. He's a thief and pirate after all who impregnates all kinds of women without any remorse and I guess there's a lot more you can blame him for.

But his liking for stories is all he has in common with Tarquin. As Tarquin is a horribly evil person and no matter what slighly evil and jerkassy traits Juilo might have and whatever they share in regard to "drama etc" does not matter that much.

If you abstract enough, everthing becomes comparable. But let's not forget their dominating characteristics over details or style.

[Vinyadan]

While it isn't explicitly said by Elan, did he just compare both Tarquin's and Julio's theatric style causing unnecessary collateral damage? (shattered window glasses, for one)

Julio didn't mention Tarquin's similarity in appearance to Elan, didn't inform Elan of a possible means to communicate with Haley, arrived just in the nick of time to save them, and had his ship travel just around the speed of plot instead of ahead of time.... just because it makes for a better story. Compare that to all the unnecessary moves Tarquin made recently just to make his story better.

EXTRA ADDENDUM: Understandably, this might be the core tenet of the Dashing Swordsman. I wonder if Tarquin also had a grip of this PrC or some similarly Cha-powered PrC (he did deflect Elans attacks with counterpuns after all), probably from a compendium to the tune of Tome of Panache or something.

Well, my opinion is that Elan was a character speaking, while Julio in panel 6 was the author speaking. Why didn't you allow the situation to be easily solved? It made for a better story. It's something which I believe the Giant has said many times on the forums and the site, it isn't strange he also says it once into the comic itself. The comic seems to be taking a gigantic turn, becoming a meta-reasoning on storytelling more than on D&D; I wonder if this is true only for this last arch, or if it will keep going in this direction.

Besides, once someone in the forums pointed out how Elan had probably murdered or at least greatly endangered the goblin children by exploding the dungeon, so yeah. He could be thinking about that, too.

[Keltest]

The huge stack she got recently from robbing Crystal after she gave up all her money to help the Resistance? Try again.

And yes, I'm aware of what you said, but what you said is wrong: Any good character in the comic* would let someone use a Wand of Sending to warn an innocent who was at risk of being murdered.

*As in, not the officially-Chaotic-Neutral character under discussion: he was more concerned with what would make a good story.

Given that Scoundrel's resources are apparently limited by storytelling conventions against all logic as well as Scoundrel's desires (and he is aware of this) it suddenly becomes alarmingly plausible that he simply knew that the universe would conspire to make the wand not work because it would ruin the story.

[Fish]

I think the larger point is being missed. This isn't about Tarquin and Julio and Elan.

Every character makes decisions that may cause harm to others, because it makes the story better. Only these three know enough about narrative to notice, thus only these three can lampshade Rich's general narrative attitude toward optimal decisions.

Roy did not make the optimal decision to rescue Elan, or in his tactics against Xykon, or in his method of asking the Oracle where Xykon would be. Had Roy asked, "Which Gate will Xykon be nearest to next?" or some similar wording, thousands of deaths could have been prevented. Defenses could have been improved, divine guidance sought, seers consulted, civilians evacuated, and precautions taken.

You could analyze almost all characters by a similar metric. These three are not the only ones for whom it is true, just the only ones who may have the self-awareness not to.

[Kish]

Thing is, all those decisions are based on qualities of the characters. Why did Roy ask the wrong question? Because one of Roy's character traits is "has a big ego about his intelligence." I'd consider a thread along the lines of "is Roy going to stop letting his ego influence him in dangerous ways?" valid, if he said something that suggested he might, as Elan just suggested he might try thinking more about the long-term consequences of his attitude toward the narrative.

Given that Scoundrel's resources are apparently limited by storytelling conventions against all logic as well as Scoundrel's desires (and he is aware of this) it suddenly becomes alarmingly plausible that he simply knew that the universe would conspire to make the wand not work because it would ruin the story.
I think he would have said that if it was the case, don't you?

Again, the author's said he's Chaotic Neutral. Why is any explanation needed for him not behaving like a good character beyond "he's not a good character"? Elan puts morality above his narrative fixation, both here and when he told Haley all about Therkla right away even though his narrative sense screamed at him not to. Julio puts little or nothing above his narrative fixation but prefers stories in which he plays a heroic role. And Tarquin forces everyone into the roles he thinks they should be in. One good, one neutral, one evil.

[rbetieh]

Perhaps Scoundrel knew that Haley could not be harmed. Let me explain:

1) Elan explicitly says he needs to get on this ship because a womans life depends on it

2) The ship is know to always arrive at the nick of time

3) Scoundrel has trained Elan to "Be a Hero" in this case

If the ships unique property is true, then Scoundrel could have assumed that Elan could in fact rescue her. Further, it could be argued that the wand of sending would not work because the ship arrives at the nick of time regardless. If Nale was stopped, Elan would still arrive in time to save Haley from "something".....

So really, only the rest of the team that Elan neglected to mention was in any real danger (he wasnt trying to save them, just Haley). And if this is true, then Ian Starshine will be in dire straits when the heroes pick him up.

[Carl]

To add to rbetieh's point. Julio himself notes that he's always just barely in time for anything, thus if they'd sent a warning to Haley it would have been just barely in time as well, (presumably Nale would have overheard her part of the conversation or something), so it was more a question of:

1. What made a good story.

2. What gave the best odd's.

With some degree of what's best for Elan thrown in as well.

Tarquin tries to force stories without regard for anything but the story. Julio goes with whatever's cool that happen's. He just has the advantage of a really long life of adventure that's taught him to expect certain thing's to happen no matter what he does, so he works around them in ways that work out as a cool plot device.

[Taelas]

But again, that's NOT in Haley's best interests. She was at risk of being killed.

Putting someone else at risk so you can look cool is not a nice thing to do. Not saying evil, but it's not nice at all.

This is nonsense. Julio DID help rescue Haley: he gave Elan a ride to Azure City. He even trained Elan as a Dashing Swordsman. "Teach a man to fish..." and all that.

He could have done more, yes, but arguing that not doing everything in his disposal to help a complete stranger is "not nice" is ridiculous.

Hell, he even gave him a powerful magic item!

[NerdyKris]

This is nonsense. Julio DID help rescue Haley: he gave Elan a ride to Azure City. He even trained Elan as a Dashing Swordsman. "Teach a man to fish..." and all that.

He could have done more, yes, but arguing that not doing everything in his disposal to help a complete stranger is "not nice" is ridiculous.

Hell, he even gave him a powerful magic item!

Except that his reason was to make a better story. Notice that he gave the wand straight away to Haley. So it's not like he is averse to handing it out to people. It's his motives that are the problem. Specifically, the same thing that motivates Tarquin, making a good story even if it puts people at risk. Which is the entire point of Elan's epiphany.

Had it just been "I don't like to loan it out and I might have needed it", that's an entirely different thing. But literally this ENTIRE book has been about people putting other people at risk for the sake of making the story "better".

[Taelas]

It still doesn't make sense as an argument. Helping someone is a good thing, even if you could easily be of greater help than you are willing to give. Doing as much as possible is more good, but not doing everything you can does not invalidate the help you are giving.

It's not like he said that he didn't care if Elan rescued Haley. He gave him enough help to get the job done, even going out of his way to do so. He didn't withhold vital assistance - at best, it would have made the fight more convenient.

Elan realized that Julio could have done more, and that if he had, they might not have had as much trouble. This does lead to what seems like an epiphany, but here's the reason: Elan is most likely the single most Good character in the story. He would do whatever it takes to help someone, even at significant cost. But Elan's willingness to do that doesn't mean that Julio is "not nice".

[Jay R]

Julio trusted his dramatic instincts, and felt the scene calling out to him, telling him that his role was to teach Elan to be a Dashing Swordsman and then deliver him for a great window-breaking entrance, which would have been impossible if Haley had known he was coming.

Besides, assume that he sends the message to Haley. What would she do?
:haley:: Flh, gnkx kxy'g Dpzy. Nd'x fdzpph Yzpd! Dpzy kx tzei ky Epkvvolfg!

[Kish]

Besides, assume that he sends the message to Haley. What would she do?
My first thought was, "Not put on a dress with clear access to her sternum and let Nale hug her without checking for daggers first."

But really, there's no reason to be that conservative; the answer to "What would she do" is "Kill Nale." He's a badly-designed faux-bard who wouldn't expect her to attack him; the only enemy even near his level he's ever been a threat to in a straight-up fight* is Elan. He wouldn't live through the surprise round.

*Malack's death, while it would be unfair to not give him credit for it, was definitely not a straight-up fight; it showcased Nale's one true strength, as a party leader. If Haley got the drop on him while he was alone he'd be dead meat.

[Amphiox]

QUESTION: Is it theoretically possible for a comic to be posted without people over-analyzing it and using it to vociferously condemn somebody? I feel that if there were a wordless strip of everybody eating pudding, someone would post about how V ate the pudding in an evil, callous manner.

The key is to look at their eyes. If the corner of the eyes crinkle when they smile while eating the delicious pudding, then they are genuinely happy and just having a nice snack with friends. But if they smile WITHOUT the crinkle, that is a fake smile, and obviously they must therefore be a deceptive lying bastard who's probably poisoned everyone else's pudding in order to rob their corpses in the next panel....


Besides, assume that he sends the message to Haley. What would she do?
:haley:: Flh, gnkx kxy'g Dpzy. Nd'x fdzpph Yzpd! Dpzy kx tzei ky Epkvvolfg!

The first question to ask is, would she even believe a Sending from Elan, or would she think he was Nale, trying to deceive her. And with Nale actually present and able to manipulate her afterwards without counterpoint from Elan, would that be in fact more likely than her believing the Sending?

I've always kind of felt that Elan's physical presence was actually critical to the resolution of that deception, because he got to demonstrate in the manner of his actions the clear difference between himself and Nale. But with a Sending he won't get that opportunity, and in fact, using a Sending in that fashion is much more typical of Nale's modus operandi, and Haley would almost certainly notice that.

And with a Sending, he can't control the circumstance that Haley is in when she receives the message. What if the Sending just happens to arrive when she is WITH Nale? (I can't remember if the Sending is actually a private communication, but even if it wasn't, if Haley received such a message without expecting it in the presence of Nale, it is very likely that she would betray some reaction which would in turn tip off Nale's suspicions). That could precipitate a conflict in an uncontrolled and unexpected time, when Haley is not prepared, and runs the risk of putting her in MORE danger.

[Sir_Leorik]

This is why Julio is neutral and Tarquin is evil. Julio doesn't actively seek to hurt people in furtherance of the story, but if it makes the story better, so be it. Tarquin's constitutionally incapable of furthering a story without killing people, and he actively and happily does it.

As for Law vs. Chaos... Julio's style is freewheeling and what makes a good story depends entirely on the moment. Tarquin, on the other hand, believes there is only one way to make a good story. Period.

I absolutely agree. Plus Julio is willing to help those in need, but there's a limit to how much he's willing to help. Maybe he was willing to fly Elan to Azure City, train him in the ways of the Dashing Swordsman and give him a magic rapier he hadn't used in years, but he didn't want to burn a charge from his Wand of Sending (even though it would have made the rescue easier) because it would have cost him something. He didn't need the +3 Keen Rapier anymore, because he has a better one. Flying Elan to the Southern Continent? Maybe he could pick up some quick work on the way back to Cliffport. And if he's already flying there, why not teach Elan to be a better Hero? It doesn't cost him anything, in keeping with his Chaotic Neutral Alignment. He's willing to help, but Wands of Sending don't grow on trees!

The most altruistic act we've ever seen Julio Scoundrel perform was in Snips, Snails & Dragon Tales, where he recovers the sapphire from the Mummy Queen for Virginia. And even there, we're seeing a potentially biased account written by Julio in order to sell comic books about his exploits.


Indeed, Julio did actually cause harm, by shooting down some of Azure City's defenses right before the hobgoblins got there.

He's not a monster like Tarquin. But he's not a hero, either, and one of the points of this book has been Elan learning that blithe unconcern for collateral damage is not cool.

From his point of view, the Azurites were overreacting to a few petty thefts he'd committed while wooing debutantes. (And he was wooing, not coercing them, like a certain someone.)


With this view, however, shouldn't Julio and Elan be reclassified as chaotic evil?

No. No they should not.


The way I interpet it, the difference between Elan, Julio, and Tarquin is this:

<SNIP>

Another great analysis!


So he was doing what Tarquin wanted to do. Got it.

No, he wasn't. Tarquin wanted to mold Elan into a character in Tarquin's story. Julio Scoundrel examined Elan's story, and forced Elan to recognize that Elan wasn't capable of performing the deeds he wanted to perform. Then he convinced Elan, of his own free will, to take a level in a Prestige Class, and gave him a free magic weapon. No amputated hands, no innocent lives set on fire, no gladiator fights, no Allosauruses eating people; just genuine help. Julio withheld some help from Elan, namely using the Wand of Sending, which shows him to be a Chaotic Neutral jerk, but he's never hidden that fact.


Well, I wasn't here when it showed up, so I have to ask. Did people try to over-analyze and vociferously condemn Fruit-Pie the Sorcerer?

I wasn't here either. We're just lucky Fruit-Pie the Sorcerer didn't bring along some of his more annoying friends, like those Dirt Farmers who invaded Ysgard using Spelljammer Ships, only to be calmed when Sif offered them Delicious Sorcerer's Fruit PiesTM! Those Dirt Farmers were really annoying! :smallbiggrin:


If he'd appeared more recently, they probably would have. Fancy exploiting an innocent goblin's food allergies like that.

Could be worse. Thog could have shown up, wrapped the Goblins in concrete, crushing them to death, while Thog jabbered about how much he loves Delicious Sorcerer's Fruit PiesTM!

:thog: "thog love flaky crust and delicious filling of fruit pie friends! they make thog stop wanting to go and slaughter the innocent!

(I just had a stroke of genius! We need a bonus comic in BRitF where Thog is in one of those Hostess Fruit Pie comic ads! Please Rich!)


Well also, Julian has no stake in the rescue of his antagonist-young-double's sweetie.

Who is Julian? :smallconfused:


And in response to the post that appeared right before this one while I was posting, I will say only that the concept of a "typical selfish neutral" as I see it described on these boards is indistinguishable from my concept of an "amoral non-mustache-twirling evil." No part of the "neutral" alignment is "don't lift a finger for anyone else unless you profit from it."

Kish, how would you characterize Julio Scoundrel in "Julio Scoundrel and the Curse of the Mummy Queen"? He initially intended to take the sapphire for himself, but ended up returning it to Virginia when she told him how badly it was needed. That's very much an action a Chaotic Neutral character with a conscience might take, as opposed to a "moustache twirling villain", don't you agree?

[ORione]

Who is Julian? :smallconfused:


Royanna Greenhilt's little brother in an AU where everyone's gender is swapped.

[Copperdragon]

I also think what this entire discussion misses so far is that what happens here has another, complex layer in it.

All this talking about Story Convention, what makes a good story is also a Out-Of-Character joke that is slightly playing with the fourth wall. Whatever happens within the comic is what happens and is done by the characters is actually happening and no one winks or blinks to make us aware of it.
But on a meta-layer Rich plays it that this is a story (even if it is not from the character's point of view).

So yes, all the characters in the story do what they do and are what they are and they are not really living a story - but in the case of Elan, Julio and Tarquin it works because it is story a story. Not from a in-universe standpoint but from an OOC-one. It's a complex play with the fourth wall here and I think this is a case where you just need to take the characters at face value, because if you try to look behind it, Elan's and Tarquin's and Julio's love for story-conventions and having ships that arrive at the nick of time etc etc etc simply makes no sense at all from an In Character point of view.
It's a joke for us outside and it's a play with the fact that this is a story.

What complicates this is that the characters in OotS do break the fourth wall in a lot of cases very bluntly and seem to be aware they are only in a story (while they actually from their point of view are not, yet we know they are in one and Rich is aware of what's he doing to make the story work).

Got what I wanted to say? I'm not sure I managed to say what I set out to do... :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Kish, how would you characterize Julio Scoundrel in "Julio Scoundrel and the Curse of the Mummy Queen"? He initially intended to take the sapphire for himself, but ended up returning it to Virginia when she told him how badly it was needed. That's very much an action a Chaotic Neutral character with a conscience might take, as opposed to a "moustache twirling villain", don't you agree?
Yes. In that case I'd say the distinction between Neutral and Good is quite a bit less clear than in the case of the Wand of Sending; Haley could easily have done exactly the same thing, though most other good characters in the comic--Roy, Elan, pre-vampire Durkon--would have set out to retrieve the sapphire with no thoughts of keeping it.

[Greatmoustache]

Just remember: its not a dramatic entrance if hes too late.

it depends actually. what if the story needs a "noooooo!!" moment? the hero swears revenge etc...

[Sir_Leorik]

Yes. In that case I'd say the distinction between Neutral and Good is quite a bit less clear than in the case of the Wand of Sending; Haley could easily have done exactly the same thing, though most other good characters in the comic--Roy, Elan, pre-vampire Durkon--would have set out to retrieve the sapphire with no thoughts of keeping it.[/spoiler]

I think we also need to remember that when Julio was originally introduced to Elan (and the readers) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html), Elan was trying a harebrained scheme torescue Haley. Julio overheard Elan asking to borrow a screwdriver, which Elan presented as a life or death matter involving a fair maiden. After hearing Elan's entire story, Julio had three options: 1) do nothing, finish his beer, and head back to the Mechane; 2) offer to fly Elan to Azure City; 3) lend Elan, a man who admitted he wasn't even able to pay for a diet cola, a Wand of Sending. If we acknowledge that Julio wants to help people he likes, but that he's leery of risking the lives of his crew, the safety of the Mechane itself (which he refers to as his "baby" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html)) or magical items he wants to hold on to, option 2 is the only option that Julio would be willing to take. He wouldn't let Elan's sweetheart get murdered, but he's not lending his Wand unless it's absolutely necessary. And from his point of view, it wasn't absolutely necessary.

[Keltest]

it depends actually. what if the story needs a "noooooo!!" moment? the hero swears revenge etc...

Then its an "oh Crap" moment, not a dramatic entrance.

[Kornaki]

Leorik, if he thinks Elan is such a malcontent that he doesn't trust his wand to Elan, why would he trust Elan and Elan's admittedly evil companion spending two days on his ship? I think you have flipped which is a more extreme action.

[Boring McReader]

Julio was operating on the assumption that everything will be okay as long as Elan sticks to the script.

Neglecting to mention that stuff made perfect sense to him because he knew in his own mind that Elan was going to leap in at the last moment, save the damsel, thwart the villain and be a hero in general.

Whether it makes sense to anyone else (including the readers) is a different matter altogether. It does seem like the laws of drama have some sort of influence on the Stickverse.


Assuming you have the right script. Which we just saw a very clear and explosive example of someone who thought the script was something else, resulting in attempts to murder everyone involved. Or earlier, when Miko was so sure she was right that she executed a man for crimes that would involve a jail sentence at most.

Elan's realization was that doing so, even when you have "good intentions" is no different than Tarquin doing it to become a legend.

I think of Elan as a whitewater rafter traveling down the story river. He takes some risks to keep things exciting, but he tries to go with the flow and use his knowledge of drama to avoid disaster. Tarquin travels the same river, but he tries to smash rocks that get in front of him and tries to tell the river where to go. Julio is riding a surfboard. He takes crazy chances, but he knows the river so well that he always makes it through.

[Sir_Leorik]

Leorik, if he thinks Elan is such a malcontent that he doesn't trust his wand to Elan, why would he trust Elan and Elan's admittedly evil companion spending two days on his ship? I think you have flipped which is a more extreme action.

Because Elan reminds Julio Scoundrel of himself when he was younger. And the younger Julio would have absconded with that Wand much faster than a diet cola. :smallbiggrin:

[Seward]

How are you paying for that drink?

30' movement speed.

Yeah. Think you nailed it.

[Amphiox]

The huge stack she got recently from robbing Crystal after she gave up all her money to help the Resistance? Try again.

Note that, before she used it all up to help the Resistance, she had many opportunities to use it to help various people in need, such as the Dirt Farmers. Or even her own allies in the Order, to purchase better equipment for their quest against Xykon. She did not.


Except that his reason was to make a better story. Notice that he gave the wand straight away to Haley.

His reason was BOTH. There are many, many ways he could have made a better story out of his situation with Elan, and not all of them involved helping Elan. He chose to do it that way because it accomplishes both ends. You can say he is Neutral because he gives equal weight to story and helping people, whereas Elan if push comes to shove will give greater weight to helping people, but you cannot deny that he was not motivated at least in part by the desire to help another person. Because he had other options, equally good from a story-perspective, which he chose to forgo. I mean, he could have flat-out murdered Elan, and turned the story into a tragicomic farce....

Whereas giving the wand to Haley ALSO does both. Since the Ian Starshine subplot is potentially interfering with the progress of the main plot, and devoting story time to showing the Mechane looking for Ian will sap the dramatic potential of the narrative, giving the wand allows a faster resolution of the subplot and thus keeps the narrative moving in the right direction. It also defuses a potential conflict between Roy and Haley over saving Ian, which would have produced another distracting side-plot that would have sapped story momentum.

So we have opposite actions here by Julio - giving the wand, and withholding the wand, but his motivations for both are actually the same. It is simply the narrative circumstance that has differed.

[Sir_Leorik]

So we have opposite actions here by Julio - giving the wand, and withholding the wand, but his motivations for both are actually the same. It is simply the narrative circumstance that has differed.

I agree. And it's not like Julio decided not to help Elan at all; he simply decided that the best way to help Elan was to give the lad a ride to Azure City and train him in the ways of The Force the Dashing Swordsman. The fact that he also gave Elan a magic weapon with which to fight Nale should reinforce the fact that Julio Scoundrel is not Evil, simply capricious. He saw a way to help that would be totally cool, especially since he was merely helping Elan on Elan's Hero's Journey. Despite the help Julio was giving, he expected Elan to do the heavy lifting himself. And that training has definitely paid for itself, with Elan becoming a better and bolder Hero, as well as going on to grow as a character later on.

Compare that to Tarquin, who doesn't care what other people want or need. Tarquin only cares about himself and his Team; that's it.

[ORione]

I think of Elan as a whitewater rafter traveling down the story river. He takes some risks to keep things exciting, but he tries to go with the flow and use his knowledge of drama to avoid disaster. Tarquin travels the same river, but he tries to smash rocks that get in front of him and tries to tell the river where to go. Julio is riding a surfboard. He takes crazy chances, but he knows the river so well that he always makes it through.

And Tarquin's in a beached canoe, insisting that he's on the river.

[mightycleric]

Note that, before she used it all up to help the Resistance, she had many opportunities to use it to help various people in need, such as the Dirt Farmers. Or even her own allies in the Order, to purchase better equipment for their quest against Xykon. She did not.

Was she always Chaotic Good, though, or has she progressed from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Good based on the influence of Elan, Roy, Durkon, and Belkar (the last one because she absolutely does not want to turn into him, of course)? I view her as somebody who was more Neutral early, but who has become Good over the course of time, and more willing to risk herself and her resources for those around her. She is no longer the wary, distrusting thief that her father raised her to be. She is a hero (who still occasionally likes to take things).

[orrion]

Note that, before she used it all up to help the Resistance, she had many opportunities to use it to help various people in need, such as the Dirt Farmers. Or even her own allies in the Order, to purchase better equipment for their quest against Xykon. She did not.

I don't think not using her wealth on every person along the way instead of saving it to help her own family affects her status as "good." She helped the farmers anyway with their main problem. Honestly their money plight was rather ridiculous and not the main focus anyway.

Exactly when did she have opportunity to purchase better equipment for their quest against Xykon? We aren't aware how much wealth she had going into the Xykon quest at Dorukan's dungeon. She then lost a crazy amount of gold when the inn blew up, so she had no opportunity to spend that on anything and as Xykon was presumed dead at the time she had no reason to spend it anyway. She was still afflicted by the aphasia and subsequently going slowly insane after they found out Xykon was still alive and kicking. The fight where she recovered her speech ended on strip 399 and she found out Xykon was invading in less than a day in strip 412.

And after the war she blows it all helping the Resistance.

[Ridureyu]

Note that, before she used it all up to help the Resistance, she had many opportunities to use it to help various people in need, such as the Dirt Farmers. Or even her own allies in the Order, to purchase better equipment for their quest against Xykon. She did not.




Miko? Is that you?

[Amphiox]

I don't think not using her wealth on every person along the way instead of saving it to help her own family affects her status as "good." She helped the farmers anyway with their main problem. Honestly their money plight was rather ridiculous and not the main focus anyway.

Well, that was my point. Just as Haley not using ALL the resources at her disposal there, while choosing to help in a different way is not wrong, neither was Julio not using the wand of Sending and instead helping Élan another way not wrong either.

[Amphiox]

Miko? Is that you?

Well, that is the last time I will be attempting a reduction ad absurdum argument in THIS forum...

[Kish]

Well, that is the last time I will be attempting a reduction ad absurdum argument in THIS forum...
You realize that reductio ad absurdum is the name of a logical fallacy, right?

[Composer99]

You realize that reductio ad absurdum is the name of a logical fallacy, right?

Point of fact: That is false (http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/).

(Wikipedia notes that reductio ad absurdum is related to the straw man fallacy - you might say that the straw man is a distortion of the reductio ad absurdum.)

[Keltest]

Point of fact: That is false (http://www.iep.utm.edu/reductio/).

(Wikipedia notes that reductio ad absurdum is related to the straw man fallacy - you might say that the straw man is a distortion of the reductio ad absurdum.)

Most people consider it to be a separate thing because in application it comes off noticeably different than other strawmen.

[Amphiox]

Most people consider it to be a separate thing because in application it comes off noticeably different than other strawmen.

The difference is that the aim is to illustrate through ironic juxtaposition how ridiculously wrong the strawman is. So, similar in structure but opposite in aim. But it depends on the audience recognizing the ironic intent, and Poe's Law and it's various offshoots takes that presumption and stuffs it into a fridge.

[Sir_Leorik]

The difference is that the aim is to illustrate through ironic juxtaposition how ridiculously wrong the strawman is. So, similar in structure but opposite in aim. But it depends on the audience recognizing the ironic intent, and Poe's Law and it's various offshoots takes that presumption and stuffs it into a fridge.

But if we decide to abandon the use of satire because of Poe's Law, then the Terrorists* will have won!

*By Terrorists, I'm of course referring to CobraTM, a Ruthless Terrorist Organization Determined to Rule the World!

[Joe the Rat]

...and that is how you disrupt a language-driven fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html).



Reviewing, yes, the three have much in common... but it's the differences that really matter.