[PF] Making a list of spells/feats to nerf or ban

[Jokunen]

So, just thought about listing the problematic spells and feats that could use a nerf (or even ban) to level the gap between mundanes and casters. Please mention it if you notice that something broken is missing, or if you think that I have listed something that doesn't belong here, or if you have ideas how to fix something.

Also, I'm not very familiar with Cleric or Druid spells, but feel free to suggest them, too.



Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money): tamest use of this is to cast something like Stoneskin every fight. Other uses include making diamonds with Fabricate or casting Wish for free (with enough STR buff).




Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge), for example, take Spell Perfection with it to whatever spell you want to cast right now. Or if you don't have some spell prepared, pick Preferred Spell. Also, Sorcerers using Expanded Arcana is extremely abusive.



Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere), no need to give casters another way to mess with melee dudes. A wizard could buff himself while inside, then Dimension Door himself out (or use Conjurer's class ability) and wreak havoc on his opponents. Also, it blocks most spell effects.




Teleport (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport) It depends on the campaign if this is too good. If you want the party to travel traditionally, this could be an offender. In that case you could replace the 'Very familiar' category with the Wizard actually setting up a teleport beacon to the spot, and bump rest of the categories down one step. This would make Teleport less reliable.


Icy Prison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/icy-prison), target is entangled or helpless depending on if he made the save. Breaking out is a DC 15 + caster level strength check, which is quite hard, and unless his buddies help to crack the ice, he's going to stay there for a while. He even takes damage while doing so!


Fickle Winds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds), too effective in shutting down archers.



Planar Binding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-binding), obvious potential for brokenness, such as binding something with SLAs such as Wish. Not sure how this should be fixed..





Simulacrum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum), obviously broken. You could make Simulacrum(s) of a caster, and go to town, for example. Maybe remove spellcasting ability and SLAs from the Simulacrum?




Gate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate), like Planar Binding, but worse.







Leadership (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leadership---final), with this you could make some guy who has all the crafting feats to make items for you, and as a bonus got a caster to buff you in battle. Almost strictly better than any craft feat.

Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic), not really broken, as it's +3 level. Still, Dazing Fireballs or Geysers, especially from a metamagic rod are really really good, maybe even too good? Dazing Ball Lightning is brutal, too. Would adding a will save in addition to normal spell save to resist the dazing be an ok fix? Ie. Dazing Fireball would first have the ref save, if it succeeds, damage is halved and daze resisted. If the save fails, full damage is taken and there would be a will save to determine if daze is resisted.

Persistent spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic), this turns simple spells such as Glitterdust into quite nasty, and even a lesser Rod of persisting could be nasty, and you should be able to afford one at level 8-9. Also, Suffocation is 5th level, and Persistent Suffocation is 7th level, same as Finger of Death, and quite murderous to anybody who doesn't have a good fort save.


Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection), it's 15th level and requires 3 metamagic feats (but you would probably want the metamagic anyways), and is single spell, but it does make stacking tons of metamagic easier, which often leads to brokenness. Even something like Fireball can become quite lethal with this. Bit is it too good, what do you think?




Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flesh-to-stone), maybe a bit too good, as it's still a save or die, which Pathfinder tried to nerf? For example, you could give two saves with it, failing first save would make the target to start harden, he would be affected as with Slow. Next save would actually petrify the target. On the other hand, if you are OK with save or dies, there's no problem with the spell.

Create Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit), just too good for the level as a lot of things can't fly or teleport yet. Even at higher level it turns golems into jokes. Reducing climb DC could be a decent nerf.

[grarrrg]

Not sure how Paragon Surge escaped your notice.
That one should at least be on the Nerf list. Not necessarily banned though, cause 1 small tweak and it goes from "OMGWTHBBQ" to "meh".

Leadership is fine, but I'm not sure the others are all that much of a problem.

Dazing Spell has a nice effect, but the target gets to make a Save attempt to Negate, and it's a +3 metamagic.

Persistent is likewise not all that amazing. Yeah, they basically have to "roll twice, keep worst", but +2 is still notable.

Spell Perfection is balanced by the fact that you can't get it until level 15 at the earliest, and it does require 3 other feats.
It also works on exactly _1_ spell of your choosing. If it was quicker/easier to get, or worked on more than _1_ spell ever (or you could take it multiple times), then yes, it would be a problem, but as-is? Meh.

[Raimun]

You'd have to either ban the casters itself or limit them to 1 spell known per spell level or something like that to achieve balance.

[Reinkai]

I don't really see the problem with leadership. You can't take it until 7th level, and the cohort starts at level 1. So it's getting 1/7th of your exp. It's also increasing the party size, (potentially) decreasing the amount of exp you get per encounter.

It doesn't get it's own WBL, so it comes out of your share of the loot.

I'm using it in Kingmaker, and keeping my level 1 cohort alive while taking on trolls was... interesting. :smallwink:

It doesn't really afford you anything you couldn't get by either working with another party member or just introducing a new player to the campaign.

[Karoht]

So, just thought about listing the problematic spells and feats that could use a nerf (or even ban) to level the gap between mundanes and casters. Please mention it if you notice that something broken is missing, or if you think that I have listed something that doesn't belong here, or if you have ideas how to fix something.

Also, I'm not very familiar with Cleric or Druid spells, but feel free to suggest them, too.A lot of the things you list from here on either have no reasoning, or the reasoning is 'too good' with no qualifier.


Blood Money (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money), obviously broken and banworthyReally? Why? How obvious is it?
I'm being slightly sarcastic here, but not all of your readers are as savvy as you.



Create Pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit), just too good for the level, other spells of this series might be offenders too.All of which are negated by anything with a burrow speed, a climb speed, or flight capabilities. Or teleportation.
Explain how it is 'too good for the level' exactly, in your own words please.


Slow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/slow), too good?How is it too good? You have no reasoning to follow it up with.
SR and Saves apply, it's easily negated with haste, how is this too good?


Sleet Storm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleet-storm), maybe too good?Again, how is it too good? Also, there are ways to see through it.



Emergency Force Sphere (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/emergency-force-sphere), no need to give casters another way to mess with melee dudes.Okay, at least here you have a reasoning. Though, what exactly can a Wizard do once in a Force Sphere to these poor poor melee dudes?


Icy Prison (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/icy-prison), maybe too good? Dunno.Again, no qualifier or reasoning.


Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/flesh-to-stone), maybe a bit too good, as it's still a save or die?...so all save or die spells need nerfing/banning?


Planar Binding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-binding), obvious potential for brokenness. Not sure how this should be fixed..Obvious to you and me, not necessarily all of your readers. Explain what is broken and why it is a problem.


Simulacrum (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/simulacrum), obviously broken. Needs ban or heavy nerf.This spell is pretty famous for it's abuse. What kind of changes does it need? Is it too inexpensive? Too fast? Too capable?


Gate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gate), obvious potential for brokenness.See previous comments.



Leadership (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leadership---final), yeah, right..Again, if following the rules, and if DM's make people work for it properly, Leadership can be perfectly fine. The problem is that it often sidetracks games into army building rather than playing a solo character.


Dazing Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/dazing-spell-metamagic)It's a 3+ adjustment for a reason.


Persistent spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic)Having to save twice is now gamebreaking? Hooboy, I hope no one points you at Bouncing Spell to combo with this. Seriously, how is this broken?


Spell Perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection): these probably shouldn't have been published.
Great, shouldn't have been published. That's not exactly very descriptive of what is wrong with them. Care to elaborate?
Spell Perfection kicks in at level 15 at the earliest. Which my group affectionately calls 'Early Epic' as that is when the really gamebreaking stuff tends to start occuring as regular components of a caster's day, never mind combats. Now sure, Spell Perfection is what enables Swift Action Paragon Surges to clever spontaneous casters (depends on if your reading of the feat allows a spells time to be altered, including converting a spell from a standard action casting to a swift with Quicken Spell), but consider the prereqs. 3 metamagic feats, and it applies to one spell and one spell only. Unless you're clever and use Paragon Surge to apply Spell Perfection to whatever spell you want. Still, it isn't a cheap investment, it's 3 4 feats, quite a large chunk of one's build. What do you find gamebreaking about it?


As for my suggestion for spells? Paragon Surge.

[8472ofborg]

Vow of poverty could use a good nerf

[Yomega]

No amount of nerf/ban will work here there is too much different as a base concept if you want a truly lvl playing feild ban everything teir 3 or higher

[Karoht]

Vow of poverty could use a good nerf...In Pathfinder? Where all it gives you is extra Ki points? Bwah?
Seriously? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-vows/vow-of-poverty)

[TuggyNE]

...In Pathfinder? Where all it gives you is extra Ki points? Bwah?
Seriously? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-vows/vow-of-poverty)

There is no conceivable game content, no matter how weak, that can entirely avoid being considered overpowered by at least one person. :smallsigh:

[grarrrg]

I don't really see the problem with leadership. You can't take it until 7th level, and the cohort starts at level 1. So it's getting 1/7th of your exp. It's also increasing the party size, (potentially) decreasing the amount of exp you get per encounter.

It doesn't get it's own WBL, so it comes out of your share of the loot.

I'm using it in Kingmaker, and keeping my level 1 cohort alive while taking on trolls was... interesting. :smallwink:
:smallconfused:

Have you actually read Leadership (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_leadership)??
"Cohort Level: You can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of your Leadership score, you can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than yourself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level (see Creating NPCs)."

So at level 7 I can get a 5th level cohort. I do NOT need to level him up from level 1.
Also, he comes with level equivalent stuff. Yes, as we level I will have to have to share my WBL with him, but out of the box he has his own gear.

"A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total."

What's this about 'taking your XP away from you again? Cohorts level based on the XP you get, but they explicitly do NOT steal from the 'group XP'.

Either there are Kingmaker specific guidelines to using Leadership, or your DM has already nerfed it.
Or, no one in your group understands how it's actually supposed to work.

When used (as written) Leadership can be quite horribroken. Just grab a Tier 1 caster as your cohort and go to town.



Vow of poverty could use a good nerf

...In Pathfinder? Where all it gives you is extra Ki points? Bwah?
Seriously? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-vows/vow-of-poverty)

At best, I hope he's being sarcastic...
2nd best, he's thinking 3.5.

[JHShadon]

There is no conceivable game content, no matter how weak, that can entirely avoid being considered overpowered by at least one person. :smallsigh:

Even Skill Focus?

[grarrrg]

Even Skill Focus?

UMD and Crafting.
Next!

[Raven777]

Even Skill Focus?

The first step to the Eldritch Heritage Oracle. Clearly, the root of ALL EVIL!

[Jokunen]

Not sure how Paragon Surge escaped your notice.
That one should at least be on the Nerf list. Not necessarily banned though, cause 1 small tweak and it goes from "OMGWTHBBQ" to "meh".

Forgot that one..




A lot of the things you list from here on either have no reasoning, or the reasoning is 'too good' with no qualifier.


I added some reasoning to them (I really should have done that when I posted this).. And I admit that I might be wrong about some of them.

[andreww]

Dazing Spell has a nice effect, but the target gets to make a Save attempt to Negate, and it's a +3 metamagic.
Dazing is crazily good for a number of reasons:

1. Yes they get a save but you can attach it to a damaging spell which targets any of the three saves. This makes it extremely versatile control.

2. Nothing in the game is immune to Dazing.

3. Persistent effects can create unbreakable Dazing locks. Dazing Ball Lightning can force creates to many saves to avoid being dazed. It can be managed at level 11 with Magical Lineage.


Persistent is likewise not all that amazing. Yeah, they basically have to "roll twice, keep worst", but +2 is still notable.

Persistent is the best metamagic feat available in PF. PF includes few means to increase spell DC. Targeting creatures weaker save and forcing them to take two rolls increases the chance of getting your spells to land significantly.


Spell Perfection is balanced by the fact that you can't get it until level 15 at the earliest, and it does require 3 other feats.
It also works on exactly _1_ spell of your choosing. If it was quicker/easier to get, or worked on more than _1_ spell ever (or you could take it multiple times), then yes, it would be a problem, but as-is? Meh.
Being available at high level isn't a reason for something to be unbalanced. Compare it to other feats available at that level. It is wildly out of whack and can easily turn that one spell into something which routinely ends encounters even against a creatures good saves.

Also if you don't actually take the feat then you can get it from Spell Perfection and apply it to any spell.

[andreww]

Okay, at least here you have a reasoning. Though, what exactly can a Wizard do once in a Force Sphere to these poor poor melee dudes?EFS gives you time to buff if you need to or to summon although the space to fit them in is limited.

Teleportation School Wizards and Arcanists with Dimensional Steps simply move to range with a swift/move action after saving themselves and do whatever they would have done before.

EFS also does more than just neuter melee. It does the same to archers and also, as an immediate action, means you can avoid all sorts of other magical attacks as it breaks line of effect.

[Sayt]

Unless I'm wrong, EFS also breaks line of effect from spells? It's basically a Great Big No Button.

[andreww]

Unless I'm wrong, EFS also breaks line of effect from spells? It's basically a Great Big No Button.
Yep and in both directions obviously. The only thing that will go through it are teleportation effects and gaze attacks.

[grarrrg]

Being available at high level isn't a reason for something to be unbalanced. Compare it to other feats available at that level. It is wildly out of whack...

That's not a fair comparison, most everything else that becomes available at that level is "Fighter-only" type crap.
We already know Caster > Mundane.


Also if you don't actually take the feat then you can get it from Spell Perfection and apply it to any spell.

I assume you meant "from Paragon Surge".
You'll notice that Paragon Surge rightfully belongs on this list. So while your point is valid, it doesn't carry full weight.




Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge), for example, take Spell Perfection with it to whatever spell you want to cast right now. Or if you don't have some spell prepared, pick Preferred Spell

Paragon Surge is a 3rd level spell.
Also, the main abuse deals with Sorcerers using Expaded Arcana to get _ANY_ spell they need on the fly (boosting them to Tier 1),
OR Oracles using Eldritch Heritage to get access to _ANY_ spell on the Cleric OR Wizard list on the fly (boosting them to Tier '0').

[Ravens_cry]

I hate Freedom of Movement. I wouldn't mind it so much if it was like PF mind blank and gave a strong, but not impossible, bonus, but the fact it completely negates (grapplers) a style of play is just wrong in my opinion. Keeping the fact it allows you to move freely in water and such is fine, but an absolute 'No' is bad game design, and this is someone who rarely cares about balance.

[Jokunen]

Paragon Surge is a 3rd level spell.
Also, the main abuse deals with Sorcerers using Expaded Arcana to get _ANY_ spell they need on the fly (boosting them to Tier 1),
OR Oracles using Eldritch Heritage to get access to _ANY_ spell on the Cleric OR Wizard list on the fly (boosting them to Tier '0').

Crap, my mistake. And yes, that's way more abusive, but the spell is inherently totally broken.

[Turion]

Fickle Winds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds) should probably be on the list, too. Without a significant nerf or ban, the spell basically informs archers that they should not bother leveling past 9 or thereabouts.

Seriously. A minute/level whole-party buff that completely shuts down entire classes (Ranger, Marksman, Zen Archer)? Even for 5th level, that's bad.

[Jokunen]

How about adding a will save to Dazing Spell? Ie. the target would first have to take the normal spell save (if any), and if it's failed, take a will save to resist being dazed? If the first save is succesful, no second save is required.


Fickle Winds (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds) should probably be on the list, too. Without a significant nerf or ban, the spell basically informs archers that they should not bother leveling past 9 or thereabouts.

Seriously. A minute/level whole-party buff that completely shuts down entire classes (Ranger, Marksman, Zen Archer)? Even for 5th level, that's bad.

That does sound like it's too good.

[Jokunen]

I hate Freedom of Movement. I wouldn't mind it so much if it was like PF mind blank and gave a strong, but not impossible, bonus, but the fact it completely negates (grapplers) a style of play is just wrong in my opinion. Keeping the fact it allows you to move freely in water and such is fine, but an absolute 'No' is bad game design, and this is someone who rarely cares about balance.

I don't think that's really a problem.. nobody plays characters who are just grapplers. :smallannoyed:

[grarrrg]

Crap, my mistake. And yes, that's way more abusive, but the spell is inherently totally broken.

Well, if you remove "caster abuse" it's actually pretty tame, probably on the weak side.
I'm certain the _intent_ was that you'd grab things like "Skill Focus: Diplomacy" just before a vital interaction, or "Fleet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fleet---final)" for if you need to run a race or something.
Once you start getting into Caster-abuse it's all downhill.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think that's really a problem.. nobody plays characters who are just grapplers. :smallannoyed:
Is it? Sure, they do some damage too, but if your primary trick is negated absolutely negated by a common high end item and mid-level spell, then, damn.
Like the one-way wind wall above, it negates an entire style of play with no downsides.

[grarrrg]

Is it? Sure, they do some damage too, but if your primary trick is negated absolutely negated by a common high end item and mid-level spell, then, damn.
Like the one-way wind wall above, it negates an entire style of play with no downsides.

Tetori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) the only way Grappling might possibly be a good idea, since 2011.

[avr]

Create Pit, at character level ~6 or less, is very very good. Most things don't have teleportation, climb or burrow speeds (I'm not certain you can burrow out of an extradimensional space anyway) and Fly checks DC 20 (>45 degree ascent) are quite difficult at that level. Later yes most dangerous enemies can fly out or similar. The other versions improve slowly enough with spell level to not be a big deal; at high levels your party can just fly above any golems, right?

Dazing spell is OK at +3 levels but should be disallowed from metamagic reducers - traits and rods.

Slow is just fine; your enemies still get to cast spells or use single attacks i.e. they do not really suck enough! It has uses but isn't overpowered IMO.

[Ravens_cry]

Tetori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) the only way Grappling might possibly be a good idea, since 2011.
Oh, I am aware. However, it's a band-aid to the problem. It doesn't really solve the problem itself in my opinion. I've also had some squabbles with the DM over what some of the Tetori abilities actually do.

[Jokunen]

Well, if you remove "caster abuse" it's actually pretty tame, probably on the weak side.
I'm certain the _intent_ was that you'd grab things like "Skill Focus: Diplomacy" just before a vital interaction, or "Fleet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fleet---final)" for if you need to run a race or something.
Once you start getting into Caster-abuse it's all downhill.

Yeah, but how would you word it to remove caster abuse? Apart from saying "no caster abuse with that, please" at the table, of course.


Create Pit, at character level ~6 or less, is very very good. Most things don't have teleportation, climb or burrow speeds (I'm not certain you can burrow out of an extradimensional space anyway) and Fly checks DC 20 (>45 degree ascent) are quite difficult at that level. Later yes most dangerous enemies can fly out or similar. The other versions improve slowly enough with spell level to not be a big deal; at high levels your party can just fly above any golems, right?

You are probably right that the later spells in the series aren't so bad. What would you suggest as nerf for Create Pit itself?


Dazing spell is OK at +3 levels but should be disallowed from metamagic reducers - traits and rods.

You could still do something like use Ball Lightning with it at level 13. Of course, that's not as bad as doing it earlier, but it still can generate nasty lockdowns. I'd prefer to nerf or ban it to be safe.


Slow is just fine; your enemies still get to cast spells or use single attacks i.e. they do not really suck enough! It has uses but isn't overpowered IMO.

I guess you are right, slow probably doesn't belong to the list.

[Karoht]

Yeah, but how would you word it to remove caster abuse? Apart from saying "no caster abuse with that, please" at the table, of course.Define what constitutes caster abuse. Then define what is abusive about it. You really can't do much about the abuse until you define what is occuring, and how it is abusive/disruptive.


You could still do something like use Ball Lightning with it at level 13. Of course, that's not as bad as doing it earlier, but it still can generate nasty lockdowns. I'd prefer to nerf or ban it to be safe.Contrasted to the number of things one can do at level 13 which will quickly outstrip a spell 3 levels lower with Dazing on it? Not really seeing your argument. Remember, that's the consideration for virtually all metamagic at all levels of play. At level X are there equal or greater options available than y spell with a +Z mod on it?

Moreover, I can do as good or better lockdown with Magic Missile + Toppling Spell VS up to 5 targets (assuming they don't fly). As a level 2 spell slot.
Or how about Spiritual Weapon + Toppling Spell? Are you immune to trip? No? Great, have fun spending the whole fight as a weapon of force pummels you into the ground, literally. After the initial casting, it doesn't even take an action on the part of the caster to keep it doing what it does, it only takes a move action to change targets.