What can make a "tier" 3 Fighter? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-14, 11:23 PM

I was thinking about this a couple of days back but I didn't dive into it. Some ideas revolved around adding to the Fighter structure, instead of replacing, as I've seen in lots of homebrews.

I believe their biggest fault are their dead levels, so I'd focus on fixing that.

Maybe you get to pick a Variant (http://www.thirteen10.com/the6elements/setting/additional/Variant%20Fighters.pdf) and you get their special abilities for free, one by one at every odd-numbered level starting on level 3. It wouldn't be as good for variants that don't get as many abilities, but it's a good start.

The other thing I could think of was the Combat Focus feats. When you do something with your life over and over, you usually get better at that. And that doesn't mean you're magically getting things done, it means you eventually gain enough experience to let your body and part of your mind do its thing while you concentrate on tactics, improvisation and the solving of problems. Any musician or sportsman knows this (I've learned this because of playing tennis, fencing and playing the piano). At first you have to focus your entire mind on getting little details right. After a while those little details require less attention, there is a point at which you can even let your mind wander while still doing those basic things that you need to do. And you use that 'freed conscience' to do that thing you do... but better. After learning the chords you can learn songs, and after learning songs you can make improvisations. While learning to fight after you are making the correct movements of the wrist automatically you can learn new basic techniques, when those techniques are automatic you can use your mind to analyze your opponent, when you get to the point in which you are analyzing any opponent automatically you can improvise in the battlefield in amazing ways, and your senses will be as honed as possible.

This isn't expressed well with something as simple as BAB... I'd give any experienced fighter, the people whose lives are dedicated to battle, the Combat Form feats in a specific order at their odd levels. Perhaps beginning at level 7 or 9, I don't know.

I'm not a homebrewer, certainly not a game designer, I'm just throwing it out there.

ngilop

2014-01-14, 11:28 PM

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-14, 11:33 PM

Oh I accidentally clicked the fluff thinking it was the whole thing and didn't see the mechanics so I didn't bother. I'll go read it right now.

And I did give actual advice >;(

ngilop

2014-01-14, 11:53 PM

I was typing this up before you posted Dr. Azkur.

Thanks for linking that list of variants there are actually a couple of those im going to steal for my Knight's discipline.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-15, 12:00 AM

Oh alright, sorry for being grumbly. You're welcome on the variants. Dragon is FULL of great stuff.

You may call me doc

AmberVael

2014-01-15, 12:11 AM

DR27

2014-01-15, 12:14 AM

I hate when peopel on this board answer a legimate question with an answer liek " play a warblade'Funny enough, your creation has a bunch of ToB-esqe abilities, so complaining about people telling you to look at the Warblade is slightly ironic. Almost all your class disciplines would fit better as martial disciplines than hardline tracks to follow within the class.

If anything, it seems pretty underpowered if you want to get to T3. Part of this is that your discipline lists top out in power around the level of 4th or 5th level ToB maneuvers. And your times per day/crappy minutes duration recharge is wonky/early 3rd edition clunky. Just use the ToB recharge mechanic, it totally does the job better.

Call your creation something new. It's different enough, and divergent enough to not be a "fix."

I liked most of Tippy's suggestions, but that's just grabbing pre-existing features from other classes. There is also the concept of "adaptable feats" that can be changed with some amount of downtime (practice/train for a few minutes between battles, get a new feat!)

Seriously though, grow a thicker skin about people telling you to look at Tome of Battle - it does a lot of what you are trying to do.

Grod_The_Giant

2014-01-15, 12:17 AM

You need combat options and out-of-combat options.

Something like the Warblade does a great job of showing off combat options. Maneuvers offer a host of interesting and effective strategies, without locking you into any really set build.

Something like the Factotum is a good example of out-of-combat options. Sure, it's the spells that really kick it up a notch, but between buckloads of skill points, Brains Over Brawn and Cunning Insight, you can manage a quite respectable modifier on any skill you might want to make.

I'd say that dropping the Factotum's magic, gestalting him with Warblade, and requiring you to spend inspiration points to use maneuvers ought to get you a pretty incredibly badass T3 fighter.

You can do original stuff, but you need features that address both aspects. The key feature of my most recent fighter fixes has been a "talent pool," which works kind of like inspiration points to provide a bonus to both in- and out-of-combat roles.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-15, 12:24 AM

Funny enough, your creation has a bunch of ToB-esqe abilities, so complaining about people telling you to look at the Warblade is slightly ironic.[...]

OP has obviously looked at ToB. He is not mad at Warblades. He is mad at people wasting his time telling him to play a Warblade. He is trying to create a class, not a character, hot damn.

Kennisiou

2014-01-15, 12:32 AM

For your abilities... I am really not a fan of momentum. It feels like it punishes players for wanting to take all of their iterative attacks, since once you have 3 or 4 attacks the 3rd or 4th are often going to miss against evenly-matched foes. It feels like an ability that fixes this would be better than an ability that further points this out by tying bonus damage and AC to your ability to hit many attacks.

Also, the capstone ability only interacting with people who play with critical failure rules (many don't, and critical failure on saves isn't RAW at all, but a variant that I don't think I've seen any group ever play) seems a bit niche and kind of underwhelming.

Your half reflex save progression is super odd. I feel like it plays poorly with fractional saves (a variant rule, sure, but one that I've seen a whole heck of a lot more than critical failures on saving throws :P) and doesn't really add much to a fighter. Beyond that, it doesn't seem to play nice with the broad amount of archetypes fighter in general (and your fix as well) tries to encompass. Consider instead giving bonus reflex, fortitutde, will, or AC progression tied in to whatever discipline path your fighter chooses instead? This means heavy armor tank fighters aren't dodging better than the (lighter armored, even!) Swashbucklers and Duskblades and fallen Paladins (because regular paladins dodge super well with their divine grace).

The only thing your fix appears to do to help with out of combat viability is add spot, listen, balance, tumble, and survival to the class skills list and give 2 more skill points a level, which is nice but far from enough. Also, balance and tumble seem like odd men out on the heavily armored fighter. Consider again making them things that unlock with discipline (maybe even having each discipline come with two skills that become class skills upon choosing it and have some interactions with those skills to improve out-of-combat viability, like knights receiving better handle animal and ride benefits or snipers gaining hide, move silently, spot, and listen benefits?). Fighters could definitely use more of that, because that's the area they fall off hardest.

Another good thing to take away from ToB: every martial class should ideally key off of four stats: the three physical stat and one mental stat. I feel like it's a good rule of thumb for seeing how good a job your martial class does at not being too MAD, but also clearly incentivizing going for more than just physical stats since it's the mental stats that most impact non-combat viability. Your fighter appears to key its abilities off of disparate stats, which would be less concerning if it was done entirely in disciplines so you could choose your stats based on the discipline you wanted to go into. Instead a lot of these features are ones that show up regardless of discipline, and I think making fighter that MAD kind of undoes the one thing it has going for it.

ngilop

2014-01-15, 12:37 AM

OP has obviously looked at ToB. He is not mad at Warblades. He is mad at people wasting his time telling him to play a Warblade. He is trying to create a class, not a character, hot damn.

EXACTLY!

how does 'play a warblade' even come close to giving me 5 or so suggestions on abilities to add to a fighter to make him "tier" 3?

answer: not at fregging all.

Grek

2014-01-15, 01:14 AM

1. You need actual defenses (Hit points don't count; AC stops mattering around level 5). I recommend Spell and Energy Resistance equal to your AC, with the element of the Energy resistance being alterable by changing into your Desert Turban/Winter Ushanka/Lightning-Proof Helmet. This is pretty much a prerequisite for "not dying" when you fight fire breathing dragons and enemy wizards with magic lightning. You may also want to give 2 good saves instead of 1.

2. At higher levels, the battlefields are more and more exotic and more and more difficult to get to. A short list of places the fighter needs to eventually be able to A] visit under their own power and B] not die to the terrain when they get there includes: Underwater, a flying castle, the Elemental Plane of Fire, Baator, Elysium, the Negative Energy Plane and a Volcano.

3. In a similar vein to #1, in order to survive at higher levels, fighters need to either be protected against all the nasty magic flying around the battlefield, or able to cure themselves of it. Ability drain, poison, disease, curses, mind control, energy drain and [Death] effects are all things the Fighter needs a way to deal with.

4. On top of all of that, you need to be able to contribute to the plot. The Duskblade can turn invisible, the Dread Necromancer can curse people and the Beguiler can charm monsters. The Fighter needs to be able to do something at least as impressive by calling in favours from the Army, the Navy and the Air Force of his nation of origin.

5. Whatever you did for #4, do it again. Twice. Because the Bard can do all of the things I listed and then some. You actually need like 10 or 20 options for favours for the Fighter to call in, even if a single fighter only gets 5 abilities this way over the course of 20 levels. This makes for a variety of choices and means every fighter doesn't end up being the same.

ngilop

2014-01-15, 01:47 AM

in regards to

#1 i have fighters already getting elemental resistances, spell resistance is a bit much but they do get a dispel magic of sorts

#2 I am toying with the ideas of giving them GATE ( the travel version onyl) as a 17th level ability, after all Heracles sundered a mountain to get to the underworld.. why cna't a high level fighter do the same?

#3 I got most of them.. thugh Death effects totally slipped my mind THANKS MAN!!

#4 Yep, my fighter can do some (imposing force, Commanding voice, stalking mastery) of that i'll expand upon those as well.

EDIT:::: side note.. IS my fluff for a fighter good? i never got an opinion one way or another inmy actual thread for my fighter.

DMVerdandi

2014-01-15, 01:54 AM

The problem with the fighter as simply a fighting class is the weakness of bonus fighter feats. They suck. What you COULD do is give the fighter better feats that scale with level, as well as skill tricks that only the fighter has.

I would take two weapon fighting for example, and have it gradually evolve into perfect two weapon fighting, based solely on level, and drop the pre-requisites for it.

Style feats. I find it RETARDED that a fighter has 11 weak potential attacks, while casters have on average about 36 that have the potential to be extremely strong.

In fact, tying them in with feats is silly. I would remove the bonus feats altogether from the fighter class, and instead give them techniques. perhaps make 20 different ones based on already existing fighter feats, and at levels 5/10/15/20 have them upgrade in potency and ability.

Give each fighter the ability to chose an extra style at levels 4/8/12/16
So each fighter at level 20 has 5 out of 20 styles that he can use, with each of them having 4 progressions.

THEN, give them skills like movement/damage reduction/spell resistance/ for skill point based increases for things they need.

Ziegander

2014-01-15, 02:28 AM

To reach Tier 3, a Fighter needs a modest boost in combat capability, a drastic boost in in-game, in-combat versatility, and a drastic boost in both out-of-combat capability and versatility.

If by "abilities" you mean class features, then the 5 class features you're looking for are going to have to be open-ended and powerful as ****. You'll need five abilities that are on the level of Master Craftsman below, which you probably won't like for being magic. Regardless, that's the power level and versatility you need to shoot for if you really want just 5 features to push the class into Tier 3.

Master Craftsman (Ex): Whenever a Fighter crafts an item he may use magical tools and/or materials in order to create a magic item. When he does, he has an effective caster level equal to his Fighter level and may ignore any prerequisite spells needed to create the item so long as he possesses the appropriate item creation feat and the spell is of a level no higher than 1/2 his Fighter levels rounded up.

When creating magic items other than potions and scrolls the Fighter crafts a masterwork item using magical tools and/or materials, making the appropriate Craft skill checks against the item's market value as a mundane item not a magic item. This costs the Fighter 1/2 the finished item's market value in GP for the materials and 1/25 the finished item's market value in XP.

For example, if the Fighter wanted to create a Boat of Folding (CL 6), he would need to be 6th level or higher, build a masterwork boat with Craft (Woodworking) skill checks, and possess the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

This ability allows the Fighter to craft alchemical items as though he were a spellcaster, and when using the Brew Potion feat he must make Craft (Alchemy) checks against the item's value.

questionmark693

2014-01-15, 02:29 AM

I just want to throw this out. If you're trying to implement a homebrew fix, go to the homebrew forums. That's why they exist. If you're going to start a discussion about making fighters tier 3 in this [art of the forums, you're going to get redirected to the class that very nearly got labelled as such by the wotc-namely, the warblade.

TheOOB

2014-01-15, 03:14 AM

I hate when peopel on this board answer a legimate question with an answer liek " play a warblade' or "play a wizard'

I didn't ask if I can play a wizard or a warblade. I aksed what could bump MY fighter (which nobody has looked at) up to "tier' 3 since I am still feeling he is not quite there.

It is a legitimate answer to your question though. The fighter isn't a tier 5 class because it needs one or two more abilities, it's tier 5 because of a fundamental problem in it's design, or rather many fundamental problems in it's design. As D&D 3.5 is built, just hitting things is not a good way of removing threats from a combat at mid to late levels, and combat tricks are not a good method of control. Further, the fighters primary ability of getting access to someone every can access, but just more, means that the entire class has some deep seeded problems.

Thus the fighter needs to be rebuilt from the ground up to be effective, and experience has shown us that classes with an exclusive list of scaling abilities they can learn and use helps to make the class interesting, flexible, the viable for longer than a class that just gets better numbers, and that is exactly what the warblade is. While I understand not everyone likes that implementation(though people who don't like the "flavor" of the warblade baffle me, it can have whatever "flavor" you roleplay it as having), but if you're looking for a better fighter it is a perfectly valid option.

When designing your class, you have to ask yourself, what does you class do that the warblade does not do, and why does the game need both your class and the warblade(or even why is the warblade not sufficient for your purposes).

As far as the class, let's take a look.

First I notice the class has a non standard reflex save bonus. You should can that. D&D has good saves(1/2 level + 2) and bad saves(1/3 level). Pick one or the other, having more than one increases the game complexity for no benefit.

The majority of your characters abilities are still bonus feats, everyone has feats. Either you're adding that many abilities in because that's what the fighter has, or because you think the class isn't powerful enough without them, either reason is a bad reason to have half of your class be a generic ability.

You gave the class 4xlevel skill points, without giving them a good skill list to use. Part of being Tier 3 is not being useless out of your element. Add things like diplomacy, bluff, sense motive, hide, move silently, some more useful knowledge skills, appraise. If a merc captain can do it, your fighter should be able to.

Martial apitude is more feats, the fighter has more feats than they'll ever need and they are tier 5. Adding more will not help.

Imposing force is odd, not the least of which because the fighter doesn't have sense motive as a skill. The level 16 boost is pretty good, but too little too late, and they lack the ability to use their intimidate for good measure. Let them use it on several foes at once, or as a move action, or something.

The Shield Ally abilities doesn't quite work as written, there are way too many ways this ability could be interpreted to work. An immediate action that forces a foe to target them with a melee attack instead of an adjacent ally would be much better and cleaner.

Mobile combatant needs to be at level 6. Having them have to wait 1 level to use the most core signature ability of the class is strange.

Instinctive Reflexes is an odd choice. Lets randomly half way through your career make you want a wisdom bonus?

Battle Perception doesn't work. You can't maintain susupention of disbelief with true seeing as an Ex ability. Try a short range blindesense or blindsight instead.

Momentum doesn't work. "Encounter" isn't a valid unit of measurement. It also encourages them to punch their party members a few times to get infinite AC.

Why at level 19 does the fighter suddenly become a team player like that. It makes no sense.

As for the disciplines, they are decent, but they lack proper scaling. You don't unlock more powerful abilities as you level up, you just get more.

In short, your Fighter fails to address the problems that make the fighter bad. To be a Tier 3 class, you must be either a)really good at one thing but still useful outside of that one thing, or b)useful at many things but not great at any of them. Your class still only it good at hitting things with sharp and or blunt objects, and useless aside from that, and they don't fix the problem that at high levels, you need to be really REALLY insanely good at that to make up for not being able to cast a save or die spell.

Your class is basically a worse warblade, it does most of the same things, and has the same problems, but doesn't have the manuvers to make them powerful and flexible. Further, you made the class exponentially more complicated than the base fighter, meaning casual players won't want to play it.

T.G. Oskar

2014-01-15, 03:38 AM

Cunning Surge from Factotum, Insightful Strike from Swashbuckler, Decisive Strike from Monk, Brains Over Brawn from Factotum, Fast Movement from Monk, Pounce from Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian

Throw all of that onto the RAW Fighter chassis and it's a solid tier 3.

Putting an Int focus makes up for the abysmal skill points. Insightful Strike pumps damage by a decent amount. Brains Over Brawn again mitigates the abysmal skill points and pumps Initiative. Decisive Strike punts damage through the roof. Cunning Surge lets you play the action economy game with the best of them.

The fast movement has a ton of tactical potential and lets you move around the battle field to usually be able to get into a good position to attack.

Fighters already get a Decisive Strike-esque ability with Overpowering Attack, one of their ACFs. You sacrifice the 16th level bonus feat for it, but you still get it. That said, it's gained way too late for them, while Monks get it way too early.

I'd say a scaling bonus to Strength checks (note, Strength checks, not Strength score) could do well, since it'd benefit both combat maneuvers (bull rush, disarm, grapple and trip) and practical uses outside of combat (breaking locks and doors). Dungeon Crasher is great precisely because of this, so this'd be a natural addendum. It doesn't apply to damage, and while hard to justify, it'd imply a more efficient use of physical strength rather than a direct addition to Strength (which would require boosting attack and damage rolls). Adding that to lifting and carrying capacity could be decent as well.

Another thing would be considering something akin to Rogue special abilities, but perhaps emulating some racial features. Powerful Build is a must for melee characters, so a 11+ level Fighter could eventually duplicate the benefit through training. Likewise for improved Aid Another (grant a higher bonus or make it reflexive; it grants a bonus on skill checks and ability checks, so it has out of combat uses), and perhaps even Slight Build (but only if it can't be chosen alongside Powerful Build).

ToB has a good measure on what could make a better Fighter: the Warblade has lots of cool maneuvers that can be used when focused, while the Fighter knows only a smattering of moves that can be used at any moment. All of these (including Tippy's suggestions, though I'd still boost skill points AND grant some extra skills; does it really kill to add Listen and Spot to their class skill list? Bluff, maybe, if they're meant to be good at feinting? Perhaps even Knowledge [architecture and engineering] while at it?) have a lasting effect, which helps them distinguish from the Warblade, who has to rely on maneuvers for its bulk load.

...Then again, it's really, really hard for the Fighter to compare to the Warblade in terms of fighting skill. They've got the fastest recovery maneuver around, after all, so they've got access to a decent variety of maneuvers that can be used out of combat pretty much at all times. Plus they've got a pretty hefty Int focus (with Battle Ardor and so forth). Combat Focus makes Fighters get some use out of Wisdom, though.

Still: what could make a tier 3 Fighter, without much changes? Don't change the class (that much, that is), but change how the Fighter works with its feats. It's not the same to give the Fighter an improvement to Power Attack than to improve Power Attack directly, but make the Fighter get the most benefit out of it. That way, you improve every melee-focused character directly, but the Fighter would edge ahead from the rest, and the large amount of feats it possesses makes for a surprisingly good class.

...And to take a cue from the War-Marked and the Chameleon PrC: floating feats. You know they could make good use out of them, particularly if feats were to scale.

prufock

2014-01-15, 08:25 AM

Maybe this (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Fighter), or some variation of the "change feats every day" idea. I haven't playtested it yet, though.

Person_Man

2014-01-15, 09:42 AM

I have my own homebrew Fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16056437) you could look at for ideas (though if you steal anything, please attribute credit back to me).

In my opinion, the most important building block to making a well written Tier 3 class is having a healthy number of well scaled abilities, which allow the class to fill multiple Niches (see ranking system in my signature for explanation), that the player can choose from, that can be changed out in some fashion at least once per day.

The Fighter lacks access to "well scaled abilities" (ie, a suite spells, powers, vestiges, soulmelds, maneuvers, Wildshape forms, etc), in that the huge majority of Fighter Bonus Feats are designed for ECL 6 or lower, and those that aren't are pretty weak. The Fighter can't change them out at least once per day. And he has a hard time filling any non-combat Niche. It also doesn't help that he has many dead levels, so he just numerically has fewer resources then most other classes.

Feedback on your specific homebrew:

As far as I know, Knowledge (Tactics) is a isn't a Skill. By creating a new Skill (instead of making it a part of some other Knowledge Skill), you're actually diluting the effectiveness of other Skills by making them more granular. More importantly, linking class abilities to the result of a Skill check is a very dicey proposition - just look at the Truenamer. The ability to optimize a Skill check is very variable - it's very hard for you as a writer to know what the result will be at a given ECL. A player might go all in with spells and a race and multiclassing/PrC etc and get a massive Knowledge (Tactics) result. Or they might be new to the game and only have 1d20 + Skill ranks + Int. Therefore, getting certain Knowledge (Tactics) results might be laughably easy or terribly difficult for a player to achieve. So I would suggest dropping Knowledge (Tactics) and de-coupling it from your class abilities.

The division and selection of archetypes and disciplines is confusing to me. I've read it three times, and I still don't understand it. Also, I'm not a huge fan of creating a bunch of cool class abilities for a class, and then preventing a class from accessing it unless they jump through certain hoops. (See the Shadowcaster for why this is a bad idea).

Big Fau

2014-01-15, 10:04 AM

EXACTLY!

how does 'play a warblade' even come close to giving me 5 or so suggestions on abilities to add to a fighter to make him "tier" 3?

answer: not at fregging all.

True, but "Look at what the Warblade can do and use it as a starting point" is an excellent answer to your question.

As it stands, the 3.5 Fighter is capable of emulating any concept that consists solely of "I hurt things". The Warblade does that and a healthy amount more, enabling far more complex concepts with both mechanical efficiency and trivial amounts of refluffing. Using the Warblade as a base point for a Fighter fix isn't a great start.

Larkas

2014-01-15, 10:36 AM

thompur

2014-01-15, 12:53 PM

Way back in olden times, before ToB was published, I was working on a fighter fix. My first go at it was to fill in all the dead levels. I forget what I did at 5th, but at 7th, I gave fighters the ability to make a full attack as a standard action. Then I wanted to create alternate options that one could "spend" iteritives on, like overcoming DR, boosting movement, or debuffing opponents. At 11th level, I reduced penalties to Iteritives by 5. Also, I did what everybody and their mother did when fixing the fighter: more skills and skill points, and scaling feats. The most important thing in my mind at the time, though, was class features unique to the class. Not saying any of these ideas are good, but...:smallbiggrin:

Fouredged Sword

2014-01-15, 03:30 PM

TheOOB

2014-01-15, 03:42 PM

I like the idea of splitting the class into many classes. The fighter concept deserves at least 1 class per major style of fighting. Here is a rough idea.

Warder - The shield fighter. - Gets great defenses, high saves, evasion (when holding a shield)

The ability to take a penalty to reflex saves to use his save for multiple characters. To take an AC penalty and apply a miss chance to others or otherwise for an attack to redirect towards himself.

Gets some form of bonus damage. Counter attack damage maybe, where he can sneak attack someone who attacked him last round.

Reduced penalties for wearing armor.

Skills, do these classes need skill. There is no reason for them not to have all the social skills and all the perception skills. 4+int skill points.

1d12 HD, gaining the improved toughness feat every 5 levels.

Unless you have an entirely new concept, making a new base class is unnecessary, it's better to make a varient or specialization, or make a prestige class.

Giving extra improved toughness is kind of meh. HP really is not super important at high levels, or at least no where near as important as AC/Saves.

The real problem with the fighter remains that none of their abilities scale properly with level, and they have no ability to alter or change their abilities. The wizard, arguably the most powerful class get a whole new set of abilities every two levels(along with their old abilities getting more powerful), and every day they become a new class essentially by choosing new spells. A sorc, right under a wizard, has all of the wizards power(and then some), but lacks the flexibility, though they still have more options than a fighter, can change their abilities at level up, and can use wands/staves/scrolls to use other abilities.

Fighter abilities all provide the same small bonuses they provide everyone, and their choices are locked in, and not even that flexible to start with.

Fouredged Sword

2014-01-15, 03:46 PM

The idea was more HP alongside AC and saves, and the ability to use that AC and those saves to protect your allies. A character as a physical shield in combat, who stands between those he protects and his foes, blocking all attack and holding the line.

It's a character who forces you to deal with him or suffer a greatly hampered ability to deal with everyone else.

I think the idea of extra damage (after consideration) should be applied to people who hit your allies. Vengeful strike or something like that.

Tvtyrant

2014-01-15, 05:28 PM

List of things you need to be tier 3 (IMO):
Flight
Short ranged teleportation
Relevant swift action abilities
A way to do ability damage
A way to inflict stun, daze, nauseated, blinded, and slowed effects
At least 1 effective AoE ability
Swappable list of powers/abilities that grant out of combat benefits
Limited ability to take extra actions

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-15, 05:39 PM

Icewraith

2014-01-15, 05:47 PM

Just have the fighter gain every fighter bonus feat and alternate class feature ever published (he can refuse to gain feats if he so chooses) at the level he meets the prerequisites. Also up the skill points and grant spot/listen/sense motive, and maybe grant one more good save.

As long as feats don't have mass, the fighter should have plenty of varied things to do in combat and more things to do out of combat. If feats have mass the Fighter collapses under his own mass and forms a black hole, killing all life. Which still only makes him T4, unfortunately, since he only has one good trick.

HMS Invincible

2014-01-15, 05:55 PM

What's wrong with giving limited fligh to a tier 3? If it's too magical for you, just give them Hercules level jumping strength. Then he can keep up with the flying magical girls.I mean wizards.

Knaight

2014-01-15, 06:10 PM

I'd actually recommend looking at some of the talents in SAGA, for both combat and noncombat purposes. They're made for a somewhat different setting, but they should port over easily enough, though you might need to fiddle with the numbers.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-15, 06:36 PM

What's wrong with giving limited fligh to a tier 3? If it's too magical for you, just give them Hercules level jumping strength. Then he can keep up with the flying magical girls.I mean wizards.

I didn't say it's wrong, I said I'd drop it from the list any T3 Class should get.
It's an essential capability (No PC of mine ever lacks flight when reaching mid levels) but that doesn't mean it has to be provided by your class. Specially if it would make no sense (And in the case of the fighter it doesn't, you're training to fight, how did that suddenly provide you with flight? But that's beside my point). Look at the other T3 classes, none of the ToB classes provides you with flight (not true flight at least, the Swordsage only gives you some cool sliding effect), I'm not so sure about the binder cause I have only read the ToM vestiges, but in there none gives you flight. Does the Dread Necromancer provide you with flight?

TL;DR
Flight is an essential form of movement. But you should not use it to measure if a class is T3 or not.

Edit: You get bonus points in my book for using that term to refer to wizards.

Ziegander

2014-01-16, 12:42 AM

I think the better question to ask here is, "Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 01:00 AM

I think the better question to ask here is, "Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"

Agreed. I like this.

fluke1993

2014-01-16, 01:24 AM

Something something: technically spell-casting is an extraordinary ability, something something

While casting a spell is not extraordinary, that is an action, not an ability. Spell-casting is the ability that allows you to take actions to cast spells and since the books don't specify what kind of ability it is, it defaults to Ex.

Grod_The_Giant

2014-01-16, 01:31 AM

I think the better question to ask here is, "Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"
Hmmm...plundering my old brew....

Expert on Everything: Some people train to be the best in a certain field. Others are dabblers, toying with this and with that. But not the Batman. The Batman simply masters everything. A Batman may act as though he had ranks in all skills equal to either his Batman level or his actual skill ranks, whichever is greater. He may not use this ability to qualify for feats or prestige classes, but it does allow him to act as though he were trained in those skills.

Lifetime of Training: If you can imagine it, a Batman has practiced it. A Batman begins play with the knowledge of five feats, which he adds to his Repertoire. He may not use any of these three feats to meet the prerequisites for one another. At every level after 1st, the Batman adds five new feats to his Repertoire.

At the start of every combat encounter, a Batman forms a Strategy from among the feats in his Repertoire, choosing a number of such feats equal to one-half his level, rounded up. This costs the Batman no actions and is done even before his first turn. The Batman gains the full benefits of the bonus feats in his Strategy, but no benefits from bonus feats which are in his Repertoire but not currently part of his Strategy.

At the start of each of his turns, before he takes any other actions, a Batman may spend a swift action to form a new Strategy.

Always Prepared: Whatever the situation, you're ready. The Batman thinks of everything. At any point, a Batman may spend any amount of gold, adding it to a sort of trust fund. As a move action, he may spend up to 500 gold per Batman level to purchase a single item, such as a scroll or vial of acid, at its full market price. Items produced in this fashion may be deposited back into the fund— they are lost, but one-half of their market price is returned to the fund. If consumable items are produced and used, they cannot be returned to the fund, although charged items whose charges/day have been exhausted can.

This ability only functions if the Batman has access to his own storage space— pockets, backpacks, saddlebags, and so on. Items produced in this fashion must fit into the storage they're produced from. The DM may veto rare or otherwise unavailable items, in which case this ability is not considered used, and the gold is not spent.

At nth level, you regain 2/3 of the item's market value when returning it to the fund, and at zth level you regain the item's full market value.

Right NOW!: The Batman knows that in a fight, time is the most precious commodity. As a free action which may be taken at any point, even when it's not his turn, he may take a swift action. He may use this ability a number of times per encounter equal to one-fourth his Batman level.

At 5th level, his extra action improves to a move action. At 10th, it improves to a standard action. At 15th, to a full-round action, and at 20th, to an entire extra round.

...and I'm stumped for a fifth. Something leadership-y doesn't seem very party friendly. Mobility and sense upgrades would probably wind up being a bit bigger than really fits the challenge (in the sense that while they might have one name, they'd be granting four or five different abilities over the class' lifespan). Still, I think you'd do pretty damn well with what I've got here...

fluke1993

2014-01-16, 01:36 AM

Master of Movement: as a swift action, a batman may move up 1/2 his batman level x 5 (this movement does not provoke AoO) OR add 5 x his batman level to all move speeds he possess. Flavor appropriately.

Gemini476

2014-01-16, 02:46 AM

I think the better question to ask here is, "Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"

Tier 3? I dunno. Tier 1 or 2? Definitely.

Yours Is The Sword That Will Split The Heavens (Ex): Your martial skills have progressed to the level that you can cut through the very planes themselves. By striking at a planar boundary (AC25), you can cast any Conjuration(Calling or Teleportation) spell with a level no more than half your Überfighter Caster Level (round up). To successfully cast the spell, you must do 15+(2*Spell Level) damage with a single strike.

Pankratossword (Ex): You can cut the uncuttable, the atomos. Cutting an atom is AC X, you need to do Y damage, complete and utter annihilation within Z miles, Mutually Assured Destruction, yada yada yada. Include some implications regarding Atlantis if you want to, I just stole this one from the Elder Scrolls.

And that's just two (Ex) abilities!
Both of those are just giving mundanes spells, though. And some people don't think that martials can have nice things, although these two are intentionally over-the top. They're both from fiction, though.

ngilop

2014-01-16, 05:46 AM

Garktz

2014-01-16, 07:28 AM

I think there has been a veryVERY greatly wrong mis reading of my post.

I am not asking " what can make the PhB fighter 'tier' 3 with just 5 abilities

nor am i asking " what a 'tier' 3 combat central class

, else I would not get answers like " play a warblade' Or 'Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"

I am asking for a list of abilities ( i chose 5 to keep it simple) that you think would bump MY FIGHTER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268) with accompanying fluff/flavor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16568597&postcount=11)

I was expect most people to do what Tippy, Doc, and TvTyrant did, give me a list, albeit a short list of things they feel are suitable to put MY FIGHTER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268) with accompanying fluff/flavor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16568597&postcount=11) into "tier' 3 region

the warblade being 'tier' 3 and my fighter not is something that makes littel sense to me, as for everything that somebody cna point out and say "this is what makes the warblade 'tier' 3" im looking at my fighter and saying 'well he gets it too'

I do appreciate what everboyd is saying, but I am just asking to help me is all. I realzie that sometimes I am not the most clear of people when im typing something up ( as evident by hardly noboidy actually posting anything related to my original post, and by Person mans confsion on my disciplines and archetypes. ( be nice if he cna tellme what i could do to make it non-confusing)

Look at "Faiths & Pantheons" from forgotten realms campaing setting, prestige class doomguide of kelemvor (http://dndtools.eu/classes/doomguide/) for ideas.

I mean "Bond of Fatal Touch" is related to kelemvor, but as a warrior, it could give abilities related to combat styles so you can further improve the quality of your weapon even if its a "simple" weapon

Also "Kelemvor's Grace" could be somthing like "Battle´s Grace"

Then you add "Frightful Presence" from samurai (Ex): A 20th-level samurai's bravery, honor, and fighting prowess have become legendary. When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 20 + samurai's Cha modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have 4 or fewer Hit Dice) or shaken for 4d6 rounds (if they have from 5 to 19 Hit Dice). Creatures with 20 or more Hit Dice are not affected. Any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same samurai's frightful presence for 24 hours. but instead of (dc 20 + cha modif) i would make it (dc 15 + bab bonus) or something like that

And some kind of capstone like "deflect magic" (i just came up with it) and that would be something like the spell turning spell fluffed as "you have battled so many times against magic that now you are able to see it comming and able to deflect it and sometimes redirect it to the attacker"

on a second read at the doomguide, the "Ethereal Purge" could be refluffed to "Show yourself you coward" and it could make enemies to drop their invis, ethereal state or something like that...

(did anyone notice how much i love that class?)

anyway, look at every class out there and take this and that from them and glue those things on your warrior... that would be my advise.

(and also, sry for my english if its not right)

OldTrees1

2014-01-16, 08:27 AM

I think there has been a veryVERY greatly wrong mis reading of my post.

-snip-

the warblade being 'tier' 3 and my fighter not is something that makes little sense to me, as for everything that somebody can point out and say "this is what makes the warblade 'tier' 3" i'm looking at my fighter and saying 'well he gets it too'

I agree that there has been much misreading.

People cite Warblade not because of the mechanics behind manuevers but rather for the list of things that manuevers can do.

Looking just through Warblade maneuvers I found these effects that your Fighter does not have (level is the lowest level that Warblade gets access, higher level versions often exist):
1st level: Make an opponent Flat-footed (although your Fighter can keep them Flat-footed)
Attack multiple opponents as a standard action
Damage Reduction
Scent
Move as a Swift action
3rd: Hit as a touch attack
Bypass Damage Reduction/Hardness
5th: Grant ally actions (White Raven Tactics grants 1 full round to ally as a swift action)
7th: Ability Damage (Mental or Physical)
Reduce actions of opponent per turn
9th: Blindsense
15th: Area of Effect attack
17th: Death Attack

Calmness of Thought was a good inclusion.

Dienekes

2014-01-16, 08:48 AM

I think there has been a veryVERY greatly wrong mis reading of my post.

I am not asking " what can make the PhB fighter 'tier' 3 with just 5 abilities

nor am i asking " what a 'tier' 3 combat central class

, else I would not get answers like " play a warblade' Or 'Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"

I am asking for a list of abilities ( i chose 5 to keep it simple) that you think would bump MY FIGHTER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268) with accompanying fluff/flavor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16568597&postcount=11)

I was expect most people to do what Tippy, Doc, and TvTyrant did, give me a list, albeit a short list of things they feel are suitable to put MY FIGHTER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268) with accompanying fluff/flavor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16568597&postcount=11) into "tier' 3 region

the warblade being 'tier' 3 and my fighter not is something that makes littel sense to me, as for everything that somebody cna point out and say "this is what makes the warblade 'tier' 3" im looking at my fighter and saying 'well he gets it too'

I do appreciate what everboyd is saying, but I am just asking to help me is all. I realzie that sometimes I am not the most clear of people when im typing something up ( as evident by hardly noboidy actually posting anything related to my original post, and by Person mans confsion on my disciplines and archetypes. ( be nice if he cna tellme what i could do to make it non-confusing)

Well, first I think it's odd that you make a second thread to talk about your homebrew that is already it's own thing. But whatever, I'll bite.

If your class can do everything a Warblade can do, but more, then it probably is tier 3 already. Unless the abilities are in some way restricted so you actually don't have the flexibility of builds that the Warblade has.

If you still don't think it works, I find it best in my homebrew to make a list of situations that the fighter should be able to handle, and then figure out how the fighter would tackle that situation.

What options are available for your fighter against a flying enemy? An enemy with a faster movement speed? Traps? In a social situations, what can he do besides intimidate, or diplomatize others? How does he handle common and obvious spells that normally screw up fighters; walls of force, save or dies, various status effects? You get the idea, once you find ways to deal with all those, give them a bunch of awesome things to do as well (including some action economy shenanigans), and more you will probably have a fairly effective tier 3.

Larkas

2014-01-16, 09:21 AM

An enemy with a faster movement speed?

THIS one could be handled by some cloning of the Tarrasque's Rush ability. Something along these lines:

Rush: X times per day the fighter can move at 5 times his normal speed for one round/minute/whatever.

Or something like that. A medium character in heavy armor could move 100 ft. normally, or 300 ft. running.

Ziegander

2014-01-16, 12:01 PM

I am not asking " what can make the PhB fighter 'tier' 3 with just 5 abilities

nor am i asking " what a 'tier' 3 combat central class

, else I would not get answers like " play a warblade' Or 'Can anyone design a Tier 3 class using only five Extraordinary abilities?"

I am asking for a list of abilities ( i chose 5 to keep it simple) that you think would bump MY FIGHTER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268) with accompanying fluff/flavor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16568597&postcount=11)

My point was that there are no five extraordinary abilities that aren't absurdly overpowered that will make any class, let alone your Fighter, Tier 3. Between Tier 4 and Tier 3 there is a staggering gulf that no amount of power will allow you to cross. What you need is versatility. Five abilities, unless markedly over-the-top in their scope, will not give you versatility. If you're looking for abilities that are more "average" in usefulness and scope, then you're going to need at least a dozen, I'd say, likely more.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 12:01 PM

THIS one could be handled by some cloning of the Tarrasque's Rush ability. Something along these lines:

Rush: X times per day the fighter can move at 5 times his normal speed for one round/minute/whatever.

Or something like that. A medium character in heavy armor could move 100 ft. normally, or 300 ft. running.

Holy molly, imagine someone in full plate running at you at that speed. That has GOT to give some charging bonus.

strider24seven

2014-01-16, 12:04 PM

Shapechange (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4210.msg83125#msg83125)

Grod_The_Giant

2014-01-16, 12:11 PM

Ziegander

2014-01-16, 12:19 PM

To be fair, he was looking for more abilities to add to his fix, not 5 abilities period.

I know, but I guess I'm saying that if the class is not yet Tier 3, then five more abilities, if you're not looking for crazy powerful/versatile ones, aren't going to get it there.

Drachasor

2014-01-16, 12:22 PM

My point was that there are no five extraordinary abilities that aren't absurdly overpowered that will make any class, let alone your Fighter, Tier 3. Between Tier 4 and Tier 3 there is a staggering gulf that no amount of power will allow you to cross. What you need is versatility. Five abilities, unless markedly over-the-top in their scope, will not give you versatility. If you're looking for abilities that are more "average" in usefulness and scope, then you're going to need at least a dozen, I'd say, likely more.

I think you can get plenty of versatility with 5 extraordinary abilities for Tier 3. It's not like you need all that much. You just need to make the Fighter good in a few more areas and he's Tier 3.

Skills: Let him pick 4 skills to have as class skills and give him 6 skill points per level. (he can choose "knowledge" and get all knowledge skills as class skills).

Floating Feats: At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 11th, etc), he gets a floating feat. It takes one minute to change these feats to any others he meets the qualifications for. At 5th level he can change them as a free action once per day, and an additional time per day every 4 levels (9th, 13th, etc). (These are any feats, not just fighter feats).

Focused Strikes: As a swift action he can ignore all concealment, damage reduction, hardness, illusion, and magical defenses that increase AC, provide a miss chance, or otherwise make attacks less likely to hit. This lasts for one round. He can do this once per encounter.

Mobility: Bonus on all physical based checks equal to half class level and the ability to take 10 on any he is trained in. Increased movement speed (as a monk). Can optionally Double jump height on jump checks.

Attacks: At some level, can make a full attack as a standard action.

And then something else.

strider24seven

2014-01-16, 12:26 PM

My point was that there are no five extraordinary abilities that aren't absurdly overpowered that will make any class, let alone your Fighter, Tier 3.

Spellcasting is Ex. Pick any other four.

Ziegander

2014-01-16, 12:40 PM

I think you can get plenty of versatility with 5 extraordinary abilities for Tier 3. It's not like you need all that much.

You actually do tend to need a lot more than people think.

You just need to make the Fighter good in a few more areas and he's Tier 3.

He's passably good at fighting. I suppose if you did nothing to make him even better at fighting, and brought up his social and exploration assets to be roughly equal to his fighting prowess he might qualify as Tier 3, but he'd be a weak one I imagine.

Skills: Let him pick 4 skills to have as class skills and give him 6 skill points per level. (he can choose "knowledge" and get all knowledge skills as class skills).

And so he's got somewhere between 5 and 8 skills at max ranks if he's lucky. But what's he actually doing with those skills that's useful? Diplomancy and UMD could definitely make him an out-of-combat powerhouse, but somewhat cheesy. Other than that?

Floating Feats: At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 11th, etc), he gets a floating feat. It takes one minute to change these feats to any others he meets the qualifications for. At 5th level he can change them as a free action once per day, and an additional time per day every 4 levels (9th, 13th, etc). (These are any feats, not just fighter feats).

Versatile, yes, and powerful because they are any feat; however I'm not sure how any feat makes sense for a Fighter. To each his own, though.

Focused Strikes: As a swift action he can ignore all concealment, damage reduction, hardness, illusion, and magical defenses that increase AC, provide a miss chance, or otherwise make attacks less likely to hit. This lasts for one round. He can do this once per encounter.

This is really not any help. There are feats that allow him to bypass most of that for all attacks all the time; much more useful than this capability at one round per encounter.

Mobility: Bonus on all physical based checks equal to half class level and the ability to take 10 on any he is trained in. Increased movement speed (as a monk). Can optionally Double jump height on jump checks.

This sounds like more than one ability. It sounds like three or four. And it's mobility. It's not really versatility. Though it does make him a bit more useful in combat.

Attacks: At some level, can make a full attack as a standard action.

I would go so far as to allow the Fighter to make a full attack as a standard action, at the end of a charge, and/or in place of an attack of opportunity.

And then something else.[/QUOTE]

I would say it's highly debatable whether or not this series of abilities would make the Fighter tier 3. Really, the only one for me that might do it is the floating feats being able to be non-Fighter feats, and I'm not so sure. Skills, barring massive, massive bonuses or other abilities to make them important, just don't really perform useful tasks beyond a certain level (aside from a scant few corner cases).

Gemini476

2014-01-16, 12:42 PM

Spellcasting is Ex. Pick any other four.

I think that counts as "absurdly overpowered".

Pick up some form of Initiating for another one, I suppose. What are there for more subsystems that are (Ex)?

Ziegander

2014-01-16, 12:44 PM

Spellcasting is Ex. Pick any other four.

Let's keep mentioning it. Maybe after it's been suggested 99 times, it will suddenly become an appropriate, not absurdly overpowered, not markedly over-the-top in scope, Fighter class feature.

Also, while "Spellcasting," the feature that says, "you can cast XX spells, using Y ability score(s), you know Z many, you get bonus spells per day, bla, bla, the save DCs are ABC, etc..." is, arguably but not definitively, an extraordinary ability, it still does not grant spell slots to cast spells from, neither does it change the fact that any actual spells that you cast are definitely not extraordinary.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 12:53 PM

My fondness of you rises by the post, Ziegander.

Icewraith

2014-01-16, 01:34 PM

Let's keep mentioning it. Maybe after it's been suggested 99 times, it will suddenly become an appropriate, not absurdly overpowered, not markedly over-the-top in scope, Fighter class feature.

Also, while "Spellcasting," the feature that says, "you can cast XX spells, using Y ability score(s), you know Z many, you get bonus spells per day, bla, bla, the save DCs are ABC, etc..." is, arguably but not definitively, an extraordinary ability, it still does not grant spell slots to cast spells from, neither does it change the fact that any actual spells that you cast are definitely not extraordinary.

So what you're saying is we actually need this...

Ability 1: Spellcasting

Ability 2: Look at me. Now look back at your spells. YOUR SPELLS ARE NOW EXTRAORDINARY! (EX)

Still need three more abilities.

:smalltongue:

Larkas

2014-01-16, 02:43 PM

Holy molly, imagine someone in full plate running at you at that speed. That has GOT to give some charging bonus.

I know, right? :smallbiggrin:

Dienekes

2014-01-16, 02:48 PM

Gemini476

2014-01-16, 02:51 PM

Actually, I was looking through spells and honestly, a lot of them really could be fluffed as extraordinary abilities in some way.

Mind you, most the ones I noticed would fit a lot easier with rogue types than fighters. But I'm sure you can find a couple.

Have you looked through the material components for spells? A lot of them are jokes, like Lightning Bolt needing things that create static charge.

Dienekes

2014-01-16, 02:56 PM

Have you looked through the material components for spells? A lot of them are jokes, like Lightning Bolt needing things that create static charge.

Oh I know. I was more pointing out that, while Icewrath was probably being a bit facetious, his point is not wholly wrong. You may have to make some adjustments, turn material components into skill checks and whatnot. But looking at spells, some of the pretty powerful spells, for ideas of what an extraordinary ability could be isn't wrong.

Gemini476

2014-01-16, 03:02 PM

Oh I know. I was more pointing out that, while Icewrath was probably being a bit facetious, his point is not wholly wrong. You may have to make some adjustments, turn material components into skill checks and whatnot. But looking at spells, some of the pretty powerful spells, for ideas of what an extraordinary ability could be isn't wrong.

...Do you have any specific examples of what you're thinking of? I get that some Divination spells can be refluffed like intuition, and Time Stop is a classic "Time Stands Still" thing, but I'm kind of drawing a blank here.

Augmental

2014-01-16, 03:05 PM

So what you're saying is we actually need this...

Ability 1: Spellcasting

Ability 2: Look at me. Now look back at your spells. YOUR SPELLS ARE NOW EXTRAORDINARY! (EX)

Still need three more abilities.

:smalltongue:

My point was that there are no five extraordinary abilities that aren't absurdly overpowered that will make any class, let alone your Fighter, Tier 3.

(Ex) spellcasting looks like an absurdly overpowered ability to me.

ngilop

2014-01-16, 03:15 PM

When I first started on my fighter I came in with certain areas I wanted to fix.

The fighter had crap mobility, so I said let him take a move instead of a 5 foot step, let him give himself a short speed boost, give him movement as a swift/free action. and best of all full attacks as a standard action :smallbiggrin:

Ugh well vs anything with a save the fighter is basically shafted if its not fort, so I remedied that, giving him a slightly better reflex save, ways to ignore, lessen, and overcome negative effects ( i have 6 or 7 that I know of off the top of my head)

Able to affect more than just the AC of his oppoenets and do more than deal damage to HP. SO now my fighter can affect a reflex save, fortitdue save, Will save as well. Can casues several different condtions like staggard, fear, dazed, immobilized and others

better skills and more skill points.. The poor fighter got crap completed shafted in this department, I gave him spot, listen, sense motive so that he might better fit the Guard role better.. I guess I could still toss in a couple more knowledges into his list, maybe Know: Local?

better action economy in addition to getting much better mobility. now the fight has uses for swift action, which can boost himself or allies effectiveness, heal himsel or allies for all intents cast a better time stop.

I also tried to tie in some skill related abilities such as Imposing force. i don't really see the fighter as a diplomat but with the boost to Intimidate and what amounts to Imperious command on crack he cna do social things allright. I need to slap in one that gives him bonuses to physical skill checks as well.

I know i cna just slap on spells and say " done' but thats lazy. If what I have with my fighter now is on the cusp of 'Tier' 3 I just needed soem help

My understand of the 'tiers' are not even close to being right I guess becuase I just fail to see how the warblade is 'tier' 3 as I do not think the small amount of non i hit things and sometimes hit then harder abilities push him into it. Unless iron Heart surge and White Raven tactics are just that powerful?

I think refluffing spells as ex abilities si what they did for most of the ToB stuff actually, Dienkenes.

My goal was to make the fighter a dominate combatant not on wildshaped druid levels, but better than others. and to give him some useful and helpful out of combat abilities. i think im falling behind on the latter.

Drachasor

2014-01-16, 03:26 PM

I would say it's highly debatable whether or not this series of abilities would make the Fighter tier 3. Really, the only one for me that might do it is the floating feats being able to be non-Fighter feats, and I'm not so sure. Skills, barring massive, massive bonuses or other abilities to make them important, just don't really perform useful tasks beyond a certain level (aside from a scant few corner cases).

If they don't make the Fighter T3, then I don't think the Warblade is T3. Because with better skills and floating non-fighter feats, this Fighter can do a ton more outside of combat and can adapt quite well within combat (and the mobility helps both outside and inside combat).

Regarding ignoring defenses, being able to do that even for just one round is very powerful as part of a full attack. A well built fighter should be able to kill or severely damage just about anything with that. Anything he can hit, anyhow.

This is, however, a pretty complicated solution that requires a lot of rules mastery because of the floating feats.

Hmm, I suppose bumping up all saves to Good is probably a good idea.

OldTrees1

2014-01-16, 03:30 PM

When I first started on my fighter I came in with certain areas I wanted to fix.

-snip-

My understand of the 'tiers' are not even close to being right I guess becuase I just fail to see how the warblade is 'tier' 3 as I do not think the small amount of non i hit things and sometimes hit then harder abilities push him into it. Unless iron Heart surge and White Raven tactics are just that powerful?

Warblade is Tier 3 because various maneuvers accomplish each of those important design goals you listed (mobility, attack non AC defenses, deal non damage threats, better skills and better action economy) and a few more (out of combat utilities*) However it is these design goals that are important, not Warblade in particular.

*Scent, Blindsense, Bypass Hardness are the ones Warblades get but this is a broad category.

The design goals you listed are exactly what you should be considering when designing a Tier 3 Fighter. I would increase the design goals to include "mobility: able to interact with more than normal terrain/walking foes" and "out of combat utility abilities". However your design goals describe a Tier 3 character if each is developed successfully.

Rogue Shadows

2014-01-16, 03:32 PM

better action economy in addition to getting much better mobility. now the fight has uses for swift action, which can boost himself or allies effectiveness, heal himsel or allies for all intents cast a better time stop.

A thought on this from my own attempts at fighter fixes (and I'm right with you RE: Warblade, incidentally)

Awesome Actions (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the fighter becomes adept at making the most of actions and opportunities in combat. Instead of receiving a standard action, move action, and swift action each turn, the fighter receives two standard actions and a swift action. This allows the fighter to move his full base speed twice at no penalty, make two attacks at his highest base attack bonus, and so on. A fighter taking a full-round action still receives only that action and free actions in a turn.

Swift Actions (Ex): A 15th-level fighter is supremely gifted at combat. A number of times per day equal to one-quarter his fighter level, the fighter may take any action normally requiring a standard action or a move action as a swift action instead, including moving, attacking, casting a spell, and so on.

By burying these abilities at Fgt11 and Fgt15, it limits the ability of other classes to gain access to it - 11 levels in fighter isn't a "dip," by that point you're dedicated to being a Fighting Man. This goes extra for Fgt15. Not that interesting builds aren't possible - a Fgt11/Wiz9 would be able to cast three spells per turn (2 regular and 1 quickened), but none of those spells would be higher than 5th level and he'd be casting them as a 9th level wizard, so it balances.

Both abilities give the Fighter better action economy, and more specifically allow it to do something that other classes can't.

This basically shores up offense (especially if you combine this with an ability that lets him full attack as a standard action; might want to add in "no more than 1/round" if you do, though). Now, as for defense...

Grit (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great fortitude. If he makes a successful Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of grit.

Tough Defense (Ex): Beginning at 7th level, the fighter is able to use sheer physical toughness and pigheadedness to overcome many challenges. Once per day, the fighter can choose to make a Fortitude save in the place of a Reflex save. The fighter gains additional uses of tough defense at 10th level and every three levels thereafter.

Beginning at 12th level, the fighter gains the additional ability to make Fortitude saves in the place of Will saves. Either usage of Tough Defense is still drawn from the same limit of uses per day.

The usage of Tough Defense works in conjunction with the fighter abilities Grit, Greater Grit, and True Grit, as applicable.

Greater Grit (Ex): At 13th level, the fighter gains Greater Grit. This functions like Grit, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half the effect of the attack or spells (such as half damage)

True Grit (Ex): At 18th level, the fighter gains True Grit. He no longer takes damage from any effect requiring a Fortitude save. Additionally, he is immune to death effects, energy drain, poison, disease, and ability drain.

You can easily cut True Grit if you feel its overpowered (by 18th level, I don't think it is, but that's me).

Giving the Fighter "Fortitude Evasion" allows it to protect itself from save-or-suck/save-or-die effects. But the true key is Tough Defense: it allows the Fighter to protect itself on the Reflex and Will fronts as well. Since Tough Defense combos with True Grit, it lets the fighter Just Say "No" to things like dominate or the odd entangle or what have you.

Drachasor

2014-01-16, 03:35 PM

Probably the easiest fix is using the gestalt rules from an approved list of other Tier 4 or below classes.

I think the biggest problem with the Fighter is the fact it is a very general concept. Hard to make it T3 without stepping on a lot of toes since they made a bunch of specialized classes. Ideally the "Fighter" would encompass the Barbarian, spell-less Ranger, spell-less Paladin, and so forth. But it doesn't, not by a long shot.

Compare it to a lot of other classes that do encompass a whole bunch of concepts much more readily than the fighter does.

Granted the power of spells is a major problem too, but I think the concept hindrance that the Fighter has is one of its weaknesses.

strider24seven

2014-01-16, 03:36 PM

Also, while "Spellcasting," the feature that says, "you can cast XX spells, using Y ability score(s), you know Z many, you get bonus spells per day, bla, bla, the save DCs are ABC, etc..." is, arguably but not definitively, an extraordinary ability, it still does not grant spell slots to cast spells from, neither does it change the fact that any actual spells that you cast are definitely not extraordinary.

It's not arguable unless you are not playing with the Monster Manual V. MMV specifically defines spellcasting as Ex.

Rogue Shadows

2014-01-16, 03:45 PM

It's not arguable unless you are not playing with the Monster Manual V. MMV specifically defines spellcasting as Ex.

The point is that, even if the ability to cast spells is Extraordinary, any actual spells being cast are going to be, well, spells, and therefore not in the spirit of the discussion.

You could come up with some abilities that are extraordinary abilities rather than spells, but then a) they're not spells and b) we're just making a Warblade, which is, equally, not in the spirit of the discussion at hand.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 03:47 PM

People, let's remember to justify every superpower you decide to give to this guy, for it's not an actual guy, it's an archetype of rigorous training.

Anyone who trains the required amount of time and effort would be able to do what you're describing.

This is my opinion, but how I see it the Fighter should be the most realistic class in terms of capabilities. That doesn't mean he can't learn to ride a dragon since dragons don't exist, it means that he should simply get a dragon out of sheer training. Again, to me what the Fighter gets shouldn't be decided by what would be most convenient and useful, but by what would be manageable through the exercise of fighting.

Also, the Spellcasting thing is starting to get tiresome.

Seerow

2014-01-16, 03:51 PM

People, let's remember to justify every superpower you decide to give to this guy, for it's not an actual guy, it's an archetype of rigorous training.

The Wizard is ALSO an archtype of rigorous training.

In a world where rigorous training of the mind can get you literal superpowers, it is a ridiculous double standard that rigorous training of the body cannot accomplish similarly extreme effects. The effects may be different, but they should be on the same tier of power, not just "This guy wins because Magic".

This is the mental hurdle that people need to overcome if they want to fix the Fighter. The problem is not necessarily with the concept, it's with people having double standards wide enough to fit small universes into.

Rogue Shadows

2014-01-16, 03:54 PM

This is my opinion, but how I see it the Fighter should be the most realistic class in terms of capabilities. That doesn't mean he can't learn to ride a dragon since dragons don't exist, it means that he should simply get a dragon out of sheer training. Again, to me what the Fighter gets shouldn't be decided by what would be most convenient and useful, but by what would be manageable through the exercise of fighting.

The problem is that realistic ability is left behind by every other class by, at latest, level 5. Fighter 10, 15, and 20 don't exist in fantasy literature, at least, not if you're trying to make one that can keep up with Wizard 10, 15, and 20 or even Bard 10, 15, and 20.

A Fighter 20 shouldn't be anything remotely resembling realistic. He should be able to do things like...like be faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

In fact, yeah. Superman is a good design goal for Fgt20.

He should be able to do things like swing his sword and sunder castles, nevermind other weapons. He should be able to wrestle the Tarrasque and stand a 50-50 shot of winning. He should be able to challenge Kord or Erythnul to a sword fight, and be the guy who draws first blood.

Icewraith

2014-01-16, 04:14 PM

...Do you have any specific examples of what you're thinking of? I get that some Divination spells can be refluffed like intuition, and Time Stop is a classic "Time Stands Still" thing, but I'm kind of drawing a blank here.

Lightning leap for starters. You could combine it with something like one of the throws from setting sun, so it works off of attack rolls still instead of forcing a reflex save.

Make an attack roll, pick a square out to a certain distance, and deal (quantity) damage to anything with an AC lower than your roll in the line connecting where you started and where you ended, and perhaps anything adjacent to where you start or end as well. You get the classic "swordsman charges through a line of baddies in a blink of an eye and they all die" feel, plus you get short-range tactical teleportation-that's-not-actually-teleportation checked off your list and even if it's a standard action you still get damage off of it.

Hitting the universe so hard you open up a planar rift to where you want to go- same as the non-monster calling part of Gate, maybe with a slight accuracy nerf.

Miming so well you convince the universe there really is a wall of force in front of you or a forcecage surrounding an opponent. They may get a reflex save to get out of the way if they realize what you're doing, since there would be no expensive component cost.

Moving so fast an illusion of you appears somewhere else.

Desert Wind already throws fire around, it's trivial to re-flavor that for other elements and numerous people have done so. Cold and acid are kind of hard to imagine, lightning and sonic easy.

Smack the ground and a wall of stone pops up somewhere else in response. Or a geyser. Or a lava plume. Or there's an earthquake (this is already a maneuver sort of). Or you cause a tunnel swallow effect in front of you. Or spikes shoot out of the ground in a 30 foot-cone from your location.

Spend a full-round action and whip up a 80 foot-long wind wall that advances 10 feet per round away from the caster and lasts for 5 or so rounds.

Most of the Telekinesis spell is just doing melee stuff at range.

Buffs - rage or divine power? Or haste?

Shapechanging/wild shaping- the wildshape ranger already does it. Also, "You've forced me to use my final form!"

There's also just being that damn tough (stoneskin), that damn quick/strong (bull's strength/cat's grace)...

You can refluff ANYTHING but other people may not appreciate the way you're playing with the fluff. There are classes that tried to do this before ToB, but a lot of the time they give a specific set of abilities 1 or 3/day and it doesn't scale well with level or works off a tertiary stat for the character or they get it ten levels after the spellcasters have it.

Ziegander

2014-01-16, 04:17 PM

So what you're saying is we actually need this...

Ability 1: Spellcasting

Ability 2: Look at me. Now look back at your spells. YOUR SPELLS ARE NOW EXTRAORDINARY! (EX)

Still need three more abilities.

:smalltongue:

Indubitablue.

The Fighter

Alignment: Any
HD: d10

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.

http://images.mmorpg.com/features/6940/images/guardian_warrior_screen2_t.jpg

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Combat Superiority, Weapon Aptitude|5|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus Feat|6|3|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Channel Spell|6|4|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Bonus Feat|6|5|3|—|—|—|—

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1||6|6|4|—|—|—|—

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|6|6|5|—|—|—|—

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2||6|6|6|3|—|—|—

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|4|—|—|—

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3||6|6|6|5|—|—|—

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|3|—|—

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3||6|6|6|6|4|—|—

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|5|—|—

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4||6|6|6|6|6|3|—

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|6|4|—

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5||6|6|6|6|6|5|—

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|6|6|3

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||6|6|6|6|6|6|4

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|6|6|5

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||6|6|6|6|6|6|6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Bonus Feat|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Spells
A fighter casts divine spells, which are drawn from the fighter spell list. A fighter must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a fighter must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a fighter’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the fighter’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a fighter can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given in the above table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Fighters practice martial exercises for their spells. Each fighter must spend 1 hour each day in practice to regain his daily allotment of spells. A fighter that has not gotten 8 hours of rest previously may not regain spells in this manner, though he need not take his hour of practice directly after resting. A fighter cannot regain his spell slots more than once per day, regardless of how often he spends 1 hour in practice. A fighter may prepare and cast any spell he has learned, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

A 1st level fighter begins play having learned three 0-level spells and learns an additional spell every level thereafter. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, a fighter may choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the fighter "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level can be of any level the fighter is currently able to cast. A fighter may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

When a fighter casts a spell he knows, all of that spell's components are replaced by a focus component. This component is satisfied by any weapon he wields (including the fighter's own body).

Fighter Spell List

0-LEVEL - Amanuensis, Dawn, Deathwatch, Detect Poison, Guidance, Know Direction, Launch Item, Light, Read Magic, Resistance, Touch of Fatigue, Virtue.

1ST LEVEL - (Core) Alarm, Bless Weapon, Bless Weapon (Swift), Calm Animals, Cause Fear, Command, Comprehend Languages, Conviction, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Snares and Pits, Divine Favor, Endure Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Expeditious Retreat (Swift), Feather Fall, Jump, Magic Weapon, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, and True Strike.

(Supplements) Accelerated Movement, Appraising Touch, Armor Lock, Arrow Mind, Blessed Aim, Bloodletting, Burning Blade, Catsfeet, Clear Mind, Climb Walls, Combat Readiness, Combined Talent, Corrupt Weapon, Crabwalk, Create Trap, Critical Strike, Cursed Blade, Cutting Hand, Deafening Clang, Detect Weaponry, Discern Bloodline, Distract Assailant, Foundation of Stone, Friendly Face, Golden Barding, Guided Shot, Herald's Call, Hunter's Mercy, Identify, Impede, Improvisation, Incite, Ironthunder Horn, Know Greatest Enemy, Lightfoot, Low-light Vision, Master's Touch, Moment of Clarity, Nerveskitter, Omen of Peril, One Mind (Lesser), Ram's Might, Rhino's Rush, Rooftop Strider, Second Wind, Secret Weapon, Shock and Awe, Silvered Weapon, Snake's Swiftness, Surefoot, Surefooted Stride, Traveler's Mount, and Vigilant Slumber

2ND LEVEL - (Core) Aid, Align Weapon, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Death Knell, Detect Thoughts, Find Traps, Heroism, Keen Edge, Scare, See Invisibility, Spider Climb, Status, Tongues, and Zone of Truth.

(Supplements) Animalistic Power, Balancing Lorecall, Battle Hymn, Beckoning Call, Bladeweave, Celerity (Lesser), Confound, Crisis of Confidence, Curse of Arrow Attraction, Curse of Impending Blades, Daggerspell Stance, Divine Insight, Glorious Raiment, Heart of Air, Heroics, Insight of Good Fortune, Know Opponent, Listening Lorecall, Meteoric Strike, Mindless Rage, One Mind (Greater), Quick March, Ray of the Python, Shield of Warding, Snake's Swiftness (Mass), Swim, Tactical Precision, Tremorsense, War Cry, Whirling Blade, and Zeal.

3RD LEVEL - (Core) Command (Greater), Detect Scrying, Fear, Flame Arrow, Haste, Magic Vestment, Magic Weapon (Greater), Shout, Slow, Spell Resistance, and Speak with Dead.

(Supplements) Aid (Legion), Align Weapon (Mass), Alter Fortune, Animate Weapon, Anticipate Teleportation, Antidragon Aura, Arrow Storm, Blade Storm, Bleed, Checkmate's Light, Conviction (Mass), Earth Hammer, Fell the Greatest Foe, Find the Gap, Ghost Touch Weapon, Heart of Water, Heart's Ease, Inevitable Defeat, Mystic Aegis, Snake's Swiftness (Legion), Steeldance, Strength of Stone, Thunderous Roar, Unluck, Vital Strike, Warcry, and Weapon of the Deity.

4TH LEVEL - (Core) Break Enchantment, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Legend Lore, Minor Creation, Righteous Might, Stone Tell, and Stoneskin.

(Supplements) Attune Form, Bane Bow, Battlefield Fortification, Boiling Oil, Celerity, Evil Glare, Favor of the Martyr, Heart of Earth, Implacable Pursuer, Metal Skin, Phantom Charge, Pronouncement of Fate, and Toxic Weapon.

5TH LEVEL - (Core) Antimagic Field, Commune, Dimension Door, Forbiddance, Heroism (Greater), Mind Blank, Permanency, Sending, Shout (Greater), Slay Living, True Seeing, and Waves of Fatigue.

(Supplements) Bolts of Bedevilment, Divine Agility, Field of Resistance, Graymantle, Heart of Fire, Indomitability, Lightning Leap, Mana Flux, Planar Tolerance, Refusal, Revivify, Slashing Dispel, Stalwart Pact, Surge of Fortune, Vanishing Weapon, and Zone of Revelation.

6TH LEVEL - (Core) Bear's Endurance (Mass), Blade Barrier, Bull's Strength (Mass), Cat's Grace (Mass), Contingency, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic (Greater), Eyebite, Finger of Death, Guards and Wards, Heroes' Feast, Major Creation, Move Earth, and Plane Shift.

(Supplements) Anticipate Teleportation (Greater), Aura of Terror, Brilliant Aura, Chasing Perfection, Energy Immunity, Eyes of the Oracle, Ruby Ray of Reversal, Starmantle, Stone Body, and Zealot Pact.

Combat Superiority (Ex): A Fighter may use the full attack action as a standard action, at the end of a charge, and/or in place of an attack of opportunity. When making a full attack, a Fighter may accept a -2 penalty to the attack roll of all attacks made during that action to make an additional attack at his highest attack bonus. This penalty drops to -1 at 3rd level and disappears entirely at 6th level.

Weapon Aptitude (Ex): A Fighter applies the benefits of any feats he has, aside from any Weapon Proficiency feats he has, that normally apply only to specific weapons to any weapon he wields. For example, he may add the +1 bonus to attack rolls from his Weapon Focus (Greataxe) feat to any weapon he wields, or he could benefit from his Lightning Maces feat while wielding any two weapons.

Bonus Feats
At 2nd level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Whenever a fighter practices to regain his spell slots he may also choose any number of new combat feats in place of those he has already gained from this ability.

Channel Spell (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, as a standard action, a fighter may make a single weapon attack and cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less at the same time.

The fighter may elect to channel his spell's energy into the target of his weapon attack in the case of touch spells or other similar spells that require an attack roll. In this case, if his weapon attack hits, the spell automatically effects the target of his attack. If the attack misses, the spell automatically fails.

Larkas

2014-01-16, 04:20 PM

The Wizard is ALSO an archtype of rigorous training.

In a world where rigorous training of the mind can get you literal superpowers, it is a ridiculous double standard that rigorous training of the body cannot accomplish similarly extreme effects. The effects may be different, but they should be on the same tier of power, not just "This guy wins because Magic".

This is the mental hurdle that people need to overcome if they want to fix the Fighter. The problem is not necessarily with the concept, it's with people having double standards wide enough to fit small universes into.

So much this. Quoted for absolute truth.

The problem is that realistic ability is left behind by every other class by, at latest, level 5. Fighter 10, 15, and 20 don't exist in fantasy literature, at least, not if you're trying to make one that can keep up with Wizard 10, 15, and 20 or even Bard 10, 15, and 20.

A Fighter 20 shouldn't be anything remotely resembling realistic. He should be able to do things like...like be faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

In fact, yeah. Superman is a good design goal for Fgt20.

He should be able to do things like swing his sword and sunder castles, nevermind other weapons. He should be able to wrestle the Tarrasque and stand a 50-50 shot of winning. He should be able to challenge Kord or Erythnul to a sword fight, and be the guy who draws first blood.

Exactly. It might seem ridiculous thinking of the Fighter as a guy who can move mountains, but it might pay to remember that the Wizard can pop the mountain out of existance. A Fighter 20 can be as (Ex)traordinary as you want, with just a sprinkle of (Su)pernatural, but the stuff he should be able to do should be just as absurd as, I don't know, opening a gate to another dimension. I'm not saying he should be able to cast Gate (though sundering the fabric of reality using a sword is a frigging nice imagery), I'm just saying that stuff he's able to do should be on the same scale of power as that.

EDIT: Icewraith, that was awesome.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 04:40 PM

Haldir

2014-01-16, 04:59 PM

Deophaun

2014-01-16, 05:10 PM

INT- based casting, dumbed down from the wizard and more alchemical. Spend an hour preparing artillery, grenades, defenses. Runes, oils, scrolls can all turn gold into magic.
The problem is now you're turning the fighter into a completely different concept. Someone wants to play Conan, and you're handing him MacGuyver.

Haldir

2014-01-16, 05:11 PM

You can't play Conan at T3.

If you want to keep them mundane give them party face and scouting skills, but that's still going to keep them around T4.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 05:14 PM

I think that we need to fluff the Fighter as the Soldier, not necessarily a person meant only to bash, but a person trained to excel on the battlefield. If magic is a common, you cannot win on the battlefield without some sort of magical proficiency. I think "mundane" classes would have been abandoned by militaries long ago.

INT- based casting, dumbed down from the wizard and more alchemical. Spend an hour preparing artillery, grenades, defenses. Runes, oils, scrolls can all turn gold into magic. Perhaps a class that only knows the "shortcuts" for creating spell effects from things the Fighter purchases (like how a wizard purchases spell components and spellbooks) and reduces item creation costs. Hell, item creation cost reduction makes the Artificer super-broken, even a battlefield-specialized list of things that can be created at reduced cost will bump your fighter up a tier in versatility.

I like this. I think it'd work best an as archetype, but I totally agree that a soldier has to be cunning and they could learn, to create their own weapons. Every soldier today knows a lot of theory about their weapons and how they work.

In a world where many kinds of enemies exist one has to know their weaknesses to defeat them. Know what would make a really fine addition to this fighter's repertoire? Some sort of Knowledge Devotion that scales with level in the class.

EDIT:

The problem is now you're turning the fighter into a completely different concept. Someone wants to play Conan, and you're handing him MacGuyver.

That's why the spellcasting would work best as an archetype/variant, but either way, as a rule of thumb, fighters should gain a benefit for having high INT. "Smart and Cunning" should be a thing to the fighter, think of Roy or any fighter character in fiction, they accomplish due to their mental prowess, yet that is not reflected in the 3.5 Fighter.

Although if people want to play a savage brute, or a heavy thug, they should be able to do it too through the Fighter too, not just the Barbarian (Which is what Conan is).

Deophaun

2014-01-16, 05:17 PM

You can't play Conan at T3.
Then you can't play a fighter at Tier 3, and therefore we have the answer to the OP's question.

Fortunately though, it's bunk. If the Warblade or the Crusader are Tier 3, then you can have Conan at Tier 3.

OldTrees1

2014-01-16, 05:20 PM

Deophaun

2014-01-16, 05:25 PM

It is extremely aggravating that so many posters still don't recognize:
This thread is NOT about the Fighter from the Players Handbook

When an OP asks a question, do them the courtesy of reading their question.
I'm curious as to who hasn't recognized this. Is it the same person that told the OP to "play a warblade?" As I also can't find that one, either.

Haldir

2014-01-16, 05:25 PM

OldTrees1

2014-01-16, 05:29 PM

I'm curious as to who hasn't recognized this. Is it the same person that told the OP to "play a warblade?" As I also can't find that one, either.

Everyone that has made 0 references to the specific class/abilities of the specific class the OP is asking about.

Perhaps "hasn't recognized" is too harsh. Maybe "willfully ignoring" is more accurate?

Deophaun

2014-01-16, 05:30 PM

Warblade and Crusader are capable of maneuvers that clearly defy physics and therefore clearly supersede everything Conan can do.
You are mistaking levels for tiers. Conan is level 4, not tier 4. And even then, Conan has Iron Heart Surge, which he must have used some cheese to grab that quickly.

Deophaun

2014-01-16, 05:34 PM

Everyone that has made 0 references to the specific class/abilities of the specific class the OP is asking about.

Perhaps "hasn't recognized" is too harsh. Maybe "willfully ignoring" is more accurate?
This may surprise you, but you don't have to reference specific classes or abilities to talk about them. For instance, Haldir and I are talking about what qualifies as a fighter, which you need a firm grasp on if you are trying to develop ideas for fighter abilities. Yet, this discussion does not require that we talk about the OP's disciplines.

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-16, 05:34 PM

Warblade and Crusader are capable of maneuvers that clearly defy physics and therefore clearly supersede everything Conan can do. I have tried to present a "mundane" method of achieving parity with the arcane within the tier system (increasing character versatility). Regardless of how you intend to make Conan T3 you're going to come up with a bunch of junk that essentially turns Conan magical and flavor it as non-magical, because there's no other way to give him things to contribute out-of-combat and other way to help him engage with magical combatants.

That unburies a question I constantly ask myself, which is "Why is the Warblade T3?" I don't dispute it, I just have the doubt. With some very situational exceptions, I don't see the classes from Tome of Battle solve anything outside of Battle. Maybe being party faces.

Can somebody answer that laconically?

OldTrees1

2014-01-16, 05:39 PM

This may surprise you, but you don't have to reference specific classes or abilities to talk about them. For instance, Haldir and I are talking about what qualifies as a fighter, which you need a firm grasp on if you are trying to develop ideas for fighter abilities. Yet, this discussion does not require that we talk about the OP's disciplines.

Then perhaps my frustration was misplaced. However since the OP has long ago expressed their own frustration, perhaps that is a sign that their question was not being answered?

Haldir

2014-01-16, 05:45 PM

Oldtrees- I did suggest a Fighter fix for a t3 character, and now I am discussing it with another poster.

Dr. Azkur- So the thread on class tiers suggests that a T3 is really good at one thing and still somewhat useful when doing other things. Unlike the Barbarian, the ToB maneuvers that the Warblade give him the flexibility he needs to sometime deal with other challenges.

Deophaun- Conan is definitely tier 4, and likely has access to some Barbarian or Fighter abilities that allow him to defy effects, or he homebrewed one up. Cherry picking a single maneuver out of Crusader's huge list and saying he must be T3 because he can do a single thing a T3 can do is silly.

Kennisiou

2014-01-16, 05:52 PM

That unburies a question I constantly ask myself, which is "Why is the Warblade T3?" I don't dispute it, I just have the doubt. With some very situational exceptions, I don't see the classes from Tome of Battle solve anything outside of Battle. Maybe being party faces.

Can somebody answer that laconically?

Warblade and Swordsage maneuvers can both give more than just combat options, a number of them giving mobility enhancements and stealth that come in handy in non-combat situations. Additionally, Warblades have a stance that gives scent. Both classes also have a good skill list and a fair number of skill points. Crusader's out of combat options are basically just cha dependancy and their skill list allowing them to become very effective party faces, but they also kind of maybe have infinite out of combat healing? No, I'm serious. At level one even. You can just unarmed attack a person with crusader's strike and since healing recovers equal amounts of lethal and nonlethal damage you heal off the punch's nonlethal damage and the lethal damage you want to heal. And you can keep doing it every few "turns" out of combat by the crusader's recovery mechanics.

Deophaun

2014-01-16, 05:54 PM

Deophaun- Conan is definitely tier 4, and likely has access to some Barbarian or Fighter abilities that allow him to defy effects, or he homebrewed one up. Cherry picking a single maneuver out of Crusader's huge list and saying he must be T3 because he can do a single thing a T3 can do is silly.
You are completely and totally missing the point. Let me try to make it clearer:

Fighters and their levels:

Conan: Fighter level 4
John Carter: Fighter level 8
Thor: Fighter level 12
Superman: Fighter level 20

If Conan would go up in level, he would start matching the power of these other characters, but he would still play as Conan. When he reached level 8, he wouldn't suddenly have to stop being Conan and become an alchemist or a wizard. He would instead stop being mundane Conan and become preternatural Conan and eventually supernatural Conan.

You're stuck because Conan never exhibits anything beyond human ability, but level 4 Warblades and Crusaders are often in the exact same boat.

Icewraith

2014-01-16, 05:54 PM

There was a rather extensive thread that bounced around on this for a while.

The overall impression was that Warblade is low T3, but a person's perception of where the warblade fell depended on how that person sorted capabilities in the tier system.

People who were for a t3 warblade claimed the warblade has a whole bunch of things he can do in combat, including buffing and action economy manipulation. T4 has its one good trick and that's about it, but the Warblade has a large number of different good tricks for different situations, some of which are also useful out of combat, and excellent in-combat mobility. While it can't use all of them at once, it can have access to enough of those tricks for the proponents to consider it versatile. The warblade also has decent skill points, a fairly large set of skills it can choose from, interactive skills, and INT as a beneficial stat.

The people who insisted the Warblade was T4 took the viewpoint that being really good in combat was still just being really good at combat, or focused on the class' lack of access to "plot-forwarding" capabilities such as divinations, or noted the class' lack of flight capability, noted that several of the Warblade's strongest options for combat versatility were its most questionably written/abusable (White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge), or pointed out the Warblade's lack of ranged capability, or questioned whether the Warblade had access to enough maneuvers to be "versatile", or were Pickford and did all of the above and threw in a heavy dose of rules (mis)interpretation, thread derailment, and goalpost-moving.

If there are any pro-t4 people reading this, please don't be upset about your inclusion with P.- the rest of you had some good points, and if the Warblade is t3 it is low t3 and if it is t4 it is at the very high end of t4.

There. That was the whole thread. You don't have to go back and read however many godawful pages it got up to, and I'm going to go sit in the corner and have traumatic flashbacks.

*shudder*

ngilop

2014-01-16, 05:55 PM

I grew up reading mythological tales. SO my Fighter in the end is going to be doing what Heracles, Ajax, Beowulf, Indrajit, and other such heros of yore were capable of doing.

I never understood why so many people are capabpel of letting the wizard do everything and anythnig 'cuz its magic' in D&D but regulating the poor mundane classes as only to what we humans can do here in our real world.

SO while I would not let teh fighter for example bring the dead back to life or conjure a being out of a pure element I see nothing wrong with like others were saying making fighter 20 superman giving him the good old totally logical and amazingly genius retcon idea of reality punching.

I was thinking of something like Slice through reality or something cool like that where it soley functions as the planar travel version of gate. my reference of course being where Heracles sundered the mountian to gain access to the underworld.

I cannot justify flight as extaordinry without wings or being an elemental (Air) creature so that would be out, as will teleportation, im just not seeing a person going from place A to place B in a fraction of a second and it not be magic related ( in D&D at least.. with enough study and research we can prob get teleportation down in the real world but i think some Event Horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_Horizon_(film)) stuff would happen first)

I know FIghter is, in and of itself a very generic concept thats whay I went with Archetypes. One for each of the 'classic' ( in my mind) examples of warriors you see throughout history and works of fiction and mythology. Robin Hood and Legolas represent Archers; Conan, Ajax, and Lu Bu for Slayer; Odysseus and Alexander the great as Commander; Roland as cavalier; Inigo Montoya as a fencer; Achilles and Indrajit as Knights; and lasty Dervish for those who want to duel wield alas.. my brain is not coming up with any examples except for drizzt

Those are the examples that stood out in my head when I am thinking of the specific Archetype of Fighter. You can mix and match so, you want to be a mongol warrior POW you take cavalier and Archer disciplines and you got yourself a horse archer.

SO i guess after all the ranting ive done in this post is. I have no qualms about giving the fighter superhuman abilities. after all post lvl 7 the fighter SHOULD be doing super human things. I know that when I posted a 'what is neded to fix a fighter' or what ever the title was when I stated the fighters should not be cast to operate under our own real world laws of physics and human capability especially when so many are readily accepting of caserts being able to do it cuz MAGIC ~spirit fingers~. Of course my postion was not at all supported or liked. But I still stand extremely firm behind that.

Coidzor

2014-01-16, 07:06 PM

Combine the Rogue's skillpoints and class features, the Fighter's chassis and bonus feats, and the Adept's spellcasting. Bam, T3.

Hell, just combine the Rogue and the Fighter. You've got the chassis and feats for actually being in combat, you've got the skill points and skill list for out of combat(and in combat, too). Seems like T3 to me at any rate, though probably low T3.

Granted, how many abilities that actually would amount to depends upon who's counting and how they're counting. Are the rogue's skill list and base skill points the same ability? Are they two separate abilities? Is each extra skill point and extra skill above and beyond the fighter's base skill list a separate ability? Is sneak attack one ability throughout its scaling or is each extra d6 of damage its own separate ability? What about the Special Ability special ability? Is that one special ability or does each chance to choose one count as its own separate special ability?

I hate when peopel on this board answer a legimate question with an answer liek " play a warblade' or "play a wizard'

And in this case, it's not that, it's that warblades are a legitimate answer as far as a fighter fix or bringing fighters up to tier 3. :smalltongue:

It's kind of the ultimate of quick and dirty when they've already done it for you.

Rogue Shadows

2014-01-17, 10:30 AM

And in this case, it's not that, it's that warblades are a legitimate answer as far as a fighter fix or bringing fighters up to tier 3. :smalltongue:

They really aren't. If they were, they wouldn't have been called Warblades, they'd have been called Fighters. Warblades instead are a distinct class (even in-game; witness: Warblade Lore) that no small number of people think doesn't really match up with the feel of a Fighter.

T4 has its one good trick and that's about it,

Actually, Tier-4 is defined as either one good trick, possibly being able to do it better than a Tier-3, but that's about it; or a number of different tricks without truly excelling in any one of them (that is, no matter what trick you're doing, there's a Tier-3 can that do it as good or better while still being Tier-3).

Hence why the Rogue is Tier-4; the Rogue has the skill points and special abilities to do a lot of things, but none of those things are going to be fantastic compared to the kinds of things that Tier-3s can do in the same situations.

Keeping that it mind, Warblade definitely feels like Tier-4. It's good at combat, but it's not the end-all-be-all of combat, and as for everything else it can do...there's someone who can do it better.

Conan: Fighter level 4
John Carter: Fighter level 8
Thor: Fighter level 12
Superman: Fighter level 20

Well...really, I'd say that Conan is a Barbarian 3/Rogue 1, personally, who either picks up a second level of Rogue for tasty skill points when he becomes King of Aquilonia, or multiclasses into Marshal, or something. And he's also someone who has completely unbalanced stats: Str 19, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 17.

But that's me, and I think the point is basically a solid one otherwise.

So...what does a class that does all this look like?

Grod_The_Giant

2014-01-17, 11:09 AM

I never understood why so many people are capabpel of letting the wizard do everything and anythnig 'cuz its magic' in D&D but regulating the poor mundane classes as only to what we humans can do here in our real world.
Probably because of how silly "mundanes" start to look if they're built to approach caster power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307285).

Seerow

2014-01-17, 12:05 PM

Probably because of how silly "mundanes" start to look if they're built to approach caster power (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307285).

So does that make it a bad thing that I looked at it (somehow missed it when you first posted) and felt like it didn't go far enough with respect to the power of the deeds?

Perseus

2014-01-17, 12:05 PM

Simple. Add the following to the Martial Study feat:

Special: If you select Martial Study as a Fighter bonus feat, it doesn't count against the limit of Martial Study feats you can take. Furthermore, if you ever select Martial Study as a Fighter bonus feat, treat all your Fighter levels as full Initiator Levels for the purpose of maneuvers selected with Martial Study and stances selected with Martial Stance.

A pal of mine is using a rule like this plus the ability to poach class features of other classes (no su, SP, or spells).

Level 1 - 3: Fighter bonus feats (1/level) + the normal advancement past level 4.

At level 4, 6, 8 etc (or whatever) the fighter may count his level -4 and copy an ability that isn't (SP, Su, or a spellcasting) on the Fighter's class list. For abilities that scale, the fighter must take the same ability to be treated as a member of the other class at (Fighter level -4).

So a level 4 Fighter could gain sneak attack, rage, or even bardic knowledge (and trade it for bardic knack).

I haven't seen the final form of it but from what I've been told the guys he plays with like the rule change on the Martial Study feat.

Ziegander

2014-01-17, 12:39 PM

A pal of mine is using a rule like this plus the ability to poach class features of other classes (no su, SP, or spells).

Level 1 - 3: Fighter bonus feats (1/level) + the normal advancement past level 4.

At level 4, 6, 8 etc (or whatever) the fighter may count his level -4 and copy an ability that isn't (SP, Su, or a spellcasting) on the Fighter's class list. For abilities that scale, the fighter must take the same ability to be treated as a member of the other class at (Fighter level -4).

So a level 4 Fighter could gain sneak attack, rage, or even bardic knowledge (and trade it for bardic knack).

I haven't seen the final form of it but from what I've been told the guys he plays with like the rule change on the Martial Study feat.

Why wouldn't you start gaining the poached class features at 5th and not 4th? You can't gain a level-0 class feature anyway...

If it's just because you can't think of anything to give them at 3rd level, why not start the class features then, at fighter level - 2? I do like the rule change on Martial Study as well.

I just had an idea. Most of you will have heard/thought of it before, so bear with me. How about a class that can learn any (Ex) ability in the game? Even all of them? Like a Wizard learns arcane spells, this class learns (Ex) abilities (which can include fighter feats, and other feats besides). It couldn't really be called a fighter anymore, but what do you think? d8 HD, 8+Int skill points per level? Would it "prepare" (Ex) abilities like a Wizard? Would it cost the class any time, gp, or XP to learn a new (Ex) ability?

Perseus

2014-01-17, 01:01 PM

Why wouldn't you start gaining the poached class features at 5th and not 4th? You can't gain a level-0 class feature anyway...

If it's just because you can't think of anything to give them at 3rd level, why not start the class features then, at fighter level - 2? I do like the rule change on Martial Study as well.

I just had an idea. Most of you will have heard/thought of it before, so bear with me. How about a class that can learn any (Ex) ability in the game? Even all of them? Like a Wizard learns arcane spells, this class learns (Ex) abilities (which can include fighter feats, and other feats besides). It couldn't really be called a fighter anymore, but what do you think? d8 HD, 8+Int skill points per level? Would it "prepare" (Ex) abilities like a Wizard? Would it cost the class any time, gp, or XP to learn a new (Ex) ability?

I'm going off memory of his fighter, so things may not be 100% haha.

Also I think that Adventurer, should be "knows every Ex", but can only train a certain amount. Something akin to the MoI where they know everything on their list but can only prepare X. This way you can have a large list of items that can be added or subtracted from.

Primary Attribute: Str or Dex (adventurers choice)
Secondary Attribute: Con (how many the Adventurer can train on per day after resting)
Tertiary Attribute: Int, Wis, or Cha (adventurers choice)

If he doesnt want to change what he trained in then he can keep the previous days Ex abilities.

Of course there are some broken Ex abilities, hell even spell casting is extraordinary so watch out. Isn't the mind flayers brain eating thing Ex? That would be interesting.

Grod_The_Giant

2014-01-17, 01:22 PM

So does that make it a bad thing that I looked at it (somehow missed it when you first posted) and felt like it didn't go far enough with respect to the power of the deeds?
Probably, yeah. Not sure whose fault it is, though. (My money's on WotC)

Alent

2014-01-17, 02:55 PM

I don't like the idea of "knows every/learns any (Ex)" without some serious limits on it. That's Tier 1 or 2 material right there. Aside from the fact that it was already pointed out farther up in the thread that MM5 specified that Spellcasting is an (Ex), there's also some really wierd monster based (Ex) skills even in core that probably shouldn't be player reachable. (Earth Elementals have Earthglide (Ex), just off the top of my head.)

I think a Fighter should be made of pure (Ex) skills, have some options for using a shield beneficially without it being just a flat AC stat, be somewhat MAD, have leadership features since 2e fluff said he had them, and have out of combat uses, but that's just me. (I don't believe in SAD characters- too shallow and little to no imagination required.)

As to the OP... your fighter really needs to be simplified in a way that isn't about needing to add 5 more abilities. It's really hard to critique it or suggest things for it because it has to be read line-by-line like a bad cable company contract. It's just too information dense, the disciplines all have unequal durations and cooldowns which must be tracked individually and most of them can be summarized by saying "the fighter steals class features and adds numbers to his weapon".

If you want to give him class features, put them on the class table. If you want to give him damage, give him simple damage mechanics. If you want to give him out of combat stuff, give him out of combat stuff. Don't give him a massive laundry list of optional abilities you can't test.

The devil's in the details here - when you balance your fighter and balance other classes against your fighter, you have to balance against every possible discipline loadout. You don't want to make a massive, impossibly big list, because then you're looking at scientific notation to see how many possible combinations there are. A combination calculator I sometimes use is saying that your choice of 34 out of 83 skills is 2.19702608e+23 possible combinations at level 20.

That cannot be human-tested.

This is why when you have large numbers of options you apply simple frameworks to them so that the possible variations are logical combinations of testable values. Consider: Fireball and lightning bolt are effectively the same spell. They deal 10d6 damage in an area. When playtesting, you can test for the "10d6 damage" framework and the damage types and different area shapes are variations on that single testable framework. This is why despite how many options Tome of Battle has, there's a great deal of redundancy as most of the skills boil down to known "hit it with dice" frameworks proven by years of Wizard playtesting.

Haldir

2014-01-17, 03:03 PM

I just had an idea. Most of you will have heard/thought of it before, so bear with me. How about a class that can learn any (Ex) ability in the game? Even all of them? Like a Wizard learns arcane spells, this class learns (Ex) abilities (which can include fighter feats, and other feats besides). It couldn't really be called a fighter anymore, but what do you think? d8 HD, 8+Int skill points per level? Would it "prepare" (Ex) abilities like a Wizard? Would it cost the class any time, gp, or XP to learn a new (Ex) ability?

I have actually been pondering something like this as well. I did a rough work-up of a wondrous item that allows you to "poach" enemy abilities. (Final Fantasy VI anyone? Don't make me Aqua Rake you...) The basic idea was a necromantic seed that allowed any character to grow a daily allotment of plant-creatures that duplicate a variety of abilities that you've stolen from fallen creatures by feeding them to the seed. Think Little Shop of Horrors + Pokemon + Necromancy. I imagined that using it would be like giving up a part of yourself to power the seedlings, so you become more plant like when using the item- lose mental stats, HD and the like.

Coidzor

2014-01-17, 03:19 PM

They really aren't. If they were, they wouldn't have been called Warblades, they'd have been called Fighters.

Warblades instead are a distinct class (even in-game; witness: Warblade Lore) that no small number of people think doesn't really match up with the feel of a Fighter.

This is a silly argument that entirely disregards the nature of the publication cycle and history of 3.5 and is overly bound up in semantics. They *couldn't* go back and deal with the burden of work that would be created by such an action, but that doesn't negate the point of the statement.

People being wrong isn't exactly a new phenomenon. :smalltongue:

TexAvery

2014-01-17, 03:46 PM

The problem is now you're turning the fighter into a completely different concept. Someone wants to play Conan, and you're handing him MacGuyver.

That's nice. You can't play Conan at high levels. He's not even really effective at mid levels. The difference between a low level fighter and a high level fighter isn't the difference between a modern army soldier and a really skilled soldier; it's the difference between an infantry soldier and an F-22 pilot. With ground control and satellite backup baked into his awesomeness. Who dispatches the greatest of infantry soldiers from 50,000 feet in the air using a GPS-guided bomb and at zero threat to his own safety. Who is also able to move from continent to continent more-or-less at will and is only threatened by similar opponents.

Even that probably isn't going far enough, but it illustrates the fundamental problem. Conan isn't valid at high levels unless he opens a book and studies magic. Or flight. Or gets to be so awesome some angels start doing his bidding. Otherwise he gets to sit at home in the castle, guarding it from marauding orcs while the effective classes teleport to other parts of the multiverse and do cool things.

Dienekes

2014-01-17, 04:09 PM

That unburies a question I constantly ask myself, which is "Why is the Warblade T3?" I don't dispute it, I just have the doubt. With some very situational exceptions, I don't see the classes from Tome of Battle solve anything outside of Battle. Maybe being party faces.

Can somebody answer that laconically?

The main argument I've seen is that you can't just say Warblade is good at combat any more than you can say that Wizards are good at magic or the rogue is good at out of combat (though it may be argued on that last one). It's true, but kind of misses the options within them.

For instance the Barbarian class is good at combat. But what does that really mean for it? Damage, mostly. It can't defend others, it can't draw attention to itself, it's movement benefit is just +10, not bad, but not particularly great. If you build it a certain way it can Intimidate debuff, but that's useless against anything immune or resistant to fear, which is a whole lot of opponents.

The Warblade is good at combat, but what that means for it is that it is good for damage, decent at tanking, can handle most spells thrown at it, can debuff even against creatures resistant to fear, can buff allies, and so forth. Plus, his skill list is just better than the Barbarians and he gets additional reasons to put emphasis on Intelligence. And even outside of that, a lot of the maneuvers themselves have a range of effects that can be helpful to do some of the myriad of things out of combat. Maybe not as good as others, but there is rarely a situation where a theoretical Warblade just has to sit on his hands going, "Shucks, you guys cover this one, ok?"

Dr. Azkur

2014-01-17, 05:08 PM

The main argument I've seen is that you can't just say Warblade is good at combat any more than you can say that Wizards are good at magic or the rogue is good at out of combat (though it may be argued on that last one). It's true, but kind of misses the options within them.

For instance the Barbarian class is good at combat. But what does that really mean for it? Damage, mostly. It can't defend others, it can't draw attention to itself, it's movement benefit is just +10, not bad, but not particularly great. If you build it a certain way it can Intimidate debuff, but that's useless against anything immune or resistant to fear, which is a whole lot of opponents.

The Warblade is good at combat, but what that means for it is that it is good for damage, decent at tanking, can handle most spells thrown at it, can debuff even against creatures resistant to fear, can buff allies, and so forth. Plus, his skill list is just better than the Barbarians and he gets additional reasons to put emphasis on Intelligence. And even outside of that, a lot of the maneuvers themselves have a range of effects that can be helpful to do some of the myriad of things out of combat. Maybe not as good as others, but there is rarely a situation where a theoretical Warblade just has to sit on his hands going, "Shucks, you guys cover this one, ok?"

Alright, that makes much more sense than most of the answers I've been getting. Saying someone is good/bad at a THING, or several THINGS isn't really good for describing what Tiers mean. Nobody can even be entirely sure what Tiers mean. I like Person Man's niche rating much better.

I probably will never see the Warblade as T3 because my campaigns are 40% combat. But now it makes much sense to me that they are officially placed there.
Thanks.

Perseus

2014-01-17, 08:30 PM

I don't like the idea of "knows every/learns any (Ex)" without some serious limits on it. .

The DM can slim down the list, make that part of the ruling straight up... Just like a DM actually has control over what spells are available in their games.

Make a list of Ex abilities that have a little box next to them, whichever ones the DM checks the player can pick up. However the DM MUST choose X number of them. So lets say that you get 2 + (Con mod min 1) Ex abilities at first level +1 at level 2 and every two levels after that. So you would be able to natural get ... at least 11 Ex abilities. The DM must choose 20 Ex abilities to allow.

Or whatever...

Although a Tier 1-2 Mundane Adventurer wouldn't be a bad idea in a high tier game... I mean, why not? Tier 1 classes tend to be the best to play, not only because you are super strong but because you can dial back your play style to lower tiers as needed.

Rogue Shadows

2014-01-17, 08:37 PM

This is a silly argument that entirely disregards the nature of the publication cycle and history of 3.5 and is overly bound up in semantics. They *couldn't* go back and deal with the burden of work that would be created by such an action, but that doesn't negate the point of the statement.

Sure they could have. Just add the following as a sidebar under the Warblade's entry.

Warblades and Fighters
the Warblade is the Fighter, updated using the material in this book. If you decide to use this variant, you probably shouldn't use the version of the Fighter found in the Player's Handbook alongside it. It was made in recognition of the fact that we really kinda' screwed the Fighter over by not giving it class features. We're sorry. Here, have some Nice Things.

Ta-da~! It's just a small-scale version of what they did when updating from 3.0 to 3.5.

But they didn't do that, for some reason - my money is on the idea that they weren't sure if people would like it, so they didn't want to call the Warblade and out-and-out Fighter "fix" so as to avoid risking angering the fanbase.

Doesn't matter. The point stands: the Fighter and the Warblade are distinct classes, and no small number of D&D players are unsatisfied with the Warblade as a "fix" for the Fighter.

Emperor Tippy

2014-01-17, 08:45 PM

Sure they could have. Just add the following as a sidebar under the Warblade's entry.

Warblades and Fighters
the Warblade is the Fighter, updated using the material in this book. If you decide to use this variant, you probably shouldn't use the version of the Fighter found in the Player's Handbook alongside it. It was made in recognition of the fact that we really kinda' screwed the Fighter over by not giving it class features. We're sorry. Here, have some Nice Things.

Ta-da~! It's just a small-scale version of what they did when updating from 3.0 to 3.5.

But they didn't do that, for some reason - my money is on the idea that they weren't sure if people would like it, so they didn't want to call the Warblade and out-and-out Fighter "fix" so as to avoid risking angering the fanbase.

Doesn't matter. The point stands: the Fighter and the Warblade are distinct classes, and no small number of D&D players are unsatisfied with the Warblade as a "fix" for the Fighter.

RAW that wouldn't change anything. Thank you screwy rules that prevent anything from overriding the PHB except for official PHB errata.

Perseus

2014-01-17, 09:20 PM

RAW that wouldn't change anything. Thank you screwy rules that prevent anything from overriding the PHB except for official PHB errata.

We could all start a petition and grab our pitchforks and torches and try to make WoTC release a updated PHB with ToB classes taking over for the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin?

Add those of us that loves Magic of Incarnum could get that in there too! Mwuahaha

olentu

2014-01-17, 09:41 PM

We could all start a petition and grab our pitchforks and torches and try to make WoTC release a updated PHB with ToB classes taking over for the Fighter, Monk, and Paladin?

It seems more sensible to get them to work on the ToB errata. It would merely require a few changes to the ToB errata file to officially replace the fighter, monk, and paladin, plus maybe they can remove all that complete mage stuff and replace it with more useful stuff while they are at it.

Ziegander

2014-01-17, 09:54 PM

Alent

2014-01-17, 10:26 PM

Why shouldn't a player be able to access things like Earthglide? Spells do the same or more? I say why not? Anyway, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326029) the class I made, which has built in restrictions on how you learn the (Ex) abilities and what that means for the character. Let me know what you think.

To clarify, I don't mind players with Earthglide (Su), I just don't like the idea of players with Earthglide (Ex). I want my players to shunt if they poke into an anti/dead-magic zone while earthgliding, or otherwise encounter a defensive terrain structure.

The Questellan looks nifty, although I don't know about all average saves. The form restrictions are sensible and should keep it reasonably in line. I would ask if the Questellan can learn Flurry of Blows, Sneak attack, Skirmish, and Combat Maneuvers, and if learned how you determine the Sneak/skirmish dice and initiator level of the combat maneuvers. (I probably should have asked that question as three sentences and used an actual question mark...)

Ziegander

2014-01-17, 10:45 PM

To clarify, I don't mind players with Earthglide (Su), I just don't like the idea of players with Earthglide (Ex). I want my players to shunt if they poke into an anti/dead-magic zone while earthgliding, or otherwise encounter a defensive terrain structure.

The Questellan looks nifty, although I don't know about all average saves. The form restrictions are sensible and should keep it reasonably in line. I would ask if the Questellan can learn Flurry of Blows, Sneak attack, Skirmish, and Combat Maneuvers, and if learned how you determine the Sneak/skirmish dice and initiator level of the combat maneuvers. (I probably should have asked that question as three sentences and used an actual question mark...)

lol

I handled how gaining things like Flurry or Sneak Attack works... "Combat Maneuvers" isn't an ability anyone has, though I understand what you mean, and I don't know how to handle it. I'll look into that, because I think, as written, the Questellan would simply gain the entire maneuvers/stances progression, with recovery mechanic, as whichever of the three initiators she chose as an initiator of that class at a level equal to her Questellan level minus 4. And that's unacceptably good as a single learned (Ex) ability among many.

EDIT: For now, I simply forbid the Questellan from learning "systems" which is a term I loosely defined in the ability description.

Alent

2014-01-17, 11:50 PM

lol

LoL @ shunting, or LoL @ learning maneuvers as an ex skill? :smallamused:

I handled how gaining things like Flurry or Sneak Attack works... "Combat Maneuvers" isn't an ability anyone has, though I understand what you mean, and I don't know how to handle it. I'll look into that, because I think, as written, the Questellan would simply gain the entire maneuvers/stances progression, with recovery mechanic, as whichever of the three initiators she chose as an initiator of that class at a level equal to her Questellan level minus 4. And that's unacceptably good as a single learned (Ex) ability among many.

That's why I was curious. Going through the possible list of (Ex) class features was actually reminding me of that "what would happen if you Gestalted all the T5 classes together..." thread that happened a few weeks back.

Thinking about it some more, this class would gish with wildshapers or certain kinds of alter-self abusers oh so very well. Start applying Ex skills from random creatures to bodies that weren't meant to have them, like improved grab (bite) on a six headed cryohydra (edit: three? I forgot how many HD Cryohydras have.) w/ power attack, shock trooper, pounce, flurry of blows, all three kinds of precision damage, constrict, and that mimic ability to Slam attack something you have grappled.

And then it could get Bardic Knowledge/Cloistered Cleric's Lore on top of that to guarantee familiarity with Ex skills or shapechanges you haven't encountered.

This could be really fun to play over the board until the DM throws a PHB at you.

EDIT: For now, I simply forbid the Questellan from learning "systems" which is a term I loosely defined in the ability description.

Does "systems" include the Martial Study feat? Quite a few of the systems have bonus feat backdoor entry mechanisms. It might make sense to have rules for "stealing from but not mastering" systems. (Grab a few maneuvers, but not autolearn the entire skill family.)

Ziegander

2014-01-18, 12:01 AM

LoL @ shunting, or LoL @ learning maneuvers as an ex skill? :smallamused:

Actually, lol @ the part you had in parentheses.

That's why I was curious. Going through the possible list of (Ex) class features was actually reminding me of that "what would happen if you Gestalted all the T5 classes together..." thread that happened a few weeks back.

Thinking about it some more, this class would gish with wildshapers or certain kinds of alter-self abusers oh so very well. Start applying Ex skills from random creatures to bodies that weren't meant to have them, like improved grab (bite) on a six headed cryohydra (edit: three? I forgot how many HD Cryohydras have.) w/ power attack, shock trooper, pounce, flurry of blows, all three kinds of precision damage, constrict, and that mimic ability to Slam attack something you have grappled.

And then it could get Bardic Knowledge/Cloistered Cleric's Lore on top of that to guarantee familiarity with Ex skills or shapechanges you haven't encountered.

This could be really fun to play over the board until the DM throws a PHB at you.

Does "systems" include the Martial Study feat? Quite a few of the systems have bonus feat backdoor entry mechanisms. It might make sense to have rules for "stealing from but not mastering" systems. (Grab a few maneuvers, but not autolearn the entire skill family.)

Well, it specifically can learn feats, so in theory it could learn ALL of the maneuvers through learning the feat 100 times, with the ability to use a number up to her Questellan level each once per encounter. But it cannot learn "Maneuvers," "Maneuvers Readied," or "Stances Known." Though that is still potentially troublingly powerful, so is nigh-unlimited feat access. At least the clause limiting her to only class level abilities at a time helps curb the power/versatility.

EDIT: Anyway, we're hijacking the thread at this point, so let's take this discussion over to the class thread.

Scow2

2014-01-18, 09:28 AM

Keeping that it mind, Warblade definitely feels like Tier-4. It's good at combat, but it's not the end-all-be-all of combat, and as for everything else it can do...there's someone who can do it better."Combat" is not a thing a class can be good at. "Combat" is a BUNCH of things a class can be good at.

A class can be good at Dealing Damage.
A class can be good at Not Dying
A class can be good at Keeping Others from Dying
A class can be good at Controlling Enemies
A class can be good at Supporting Allies
A class can be good at Getting to places his enemies don't want him
A class can be good at Getting Out of Places enemies want him
A class can be good at Getting to places Allies want him.
etc.

If a class is good at "Combat", then it's automatically Tier 3 because there's So Much to combat.

Rogue Shadows

2014-01-18, 11:44 AM

If a class is good at "Combat", then it's automatically Tier 3 because there's So Much to combat.

Which is nevertheless only a small part of the game, however significant it might be.

What does a Warblade do when he needs to...

1. Talk to a noble about his reward
2. Hunt for clues in a busy city
3. Negotiate a hostage situation
4. Escape an enemy too strong to kill
5. Get past an environmental obstacle
6. Reach a destination faster than an opponent (overland movement, not tactical)
7. Find a hidden enemy base
8. Kill a horde of enemies
9. Disable someone without killing him
10. Take out a monster with one specific weakness, say, fire, silver, magical weapons, sunlight
11. Earn a lot of money, quickly.
12. Steal an item, undetected.

The vast majority of Tier-3s will have some form of response to each of these in any given build and be able to perform in a level-appropriate way, and will also have one or two areas where they really shine. A Tier-4 will have answers for a few, and maybe even the best answer for one or two, but be left floundering for the rest; or, alternatively, they'll be able to act in each one, but in a notably worse way than a Tier-3 class.

T.G. Oskar

2014-01-18, 03:51 PM

Which is nevertheless only a small part of the game, however significant it might be.

What does a Warblade do when he needs to...

1. Talk to a noble about his reward
2. Hunt for clues in a busy city
3. Negotiate a hostage situation
4. Escape an enemy too strong to kill
5. Get past an environmental obstacle
6. Reach a destination faster than an opponent (overland movement, not tactical)
7. Find a hidden enemy base
8. Kill a horde of enemies
9. Disable someone without killing him
10. Take out a monster with one specific weakness, say, fire, silver, magical weapons, sunlight
11. Earn a lot of money, quickly.
12. Steal an item, undetected.

Intimidate. "So, about that reward...you wouldn't like to see another monster incursion like this go unrepelled, now do you?"
Intimidate. "You value those sturdy legs? Tell me about where the drug-smuggling syndicate is or I'll break 'em like I broke that wall."
Intimidate. "Here's the two ways to do it: the clean, 'no-kills' approach, or the 'I swear I'll go down to the Nine Hells and make your life even MORE of a nightmare once you're dead by my hands' approach. Choose wisely."
Intimidate. "You're a waste of time. Yeah, you're leagues taller, and wield a sword thrice as big as me, but if I wanted to, you could already be dead. So do us a favor and get the hell outta my sight!"
Iron Heart Surge. "Say, this river is slowing my path! BY CROM, I WILL stop this river with mine own hands!"
Intimidate (a Time Lord). "You have how many 'Regenerations', you say? Get that 'tardy's' movin' or we'll see how many you really got..." (Note: doesn't work on the Doctor)
Hearing the Air. Plus Intimidate. "Tell me where the base is, NOW. I can hear your bones clink from fear..."
Liberal use of Adamantine Hurricane and Mithral Tornado, alternated, with some rest swings.
Intimidate. "Feign you're wounded. That'll let you live. Because this sword is thirsty for blood, and yours is its favorite!"
Mountain Hammer.
Intimidate. Protection racket, anyone?
Intimidate. "You didn't see me, pal. Now, if you do so, I *might* tell my friend over here to return your limbs."

So, is the Warblade still Tier 3?The fun part is figuring which of these are actually doable for the Warblade!

Augmental

2014-01-18, 04:09 PM

Intimidate. "So, about that reward...you wouldn't like to see another monster incursion like this go unrepelled, now do you?"

Or you could use diplomacy. :smalltongue:

Gemini476

2014-01-19, 08:33 AM

1. Talk to a noble about his reward
2. Hunt for clues in a busy city
3. Negotiate a hostage situation
4. Escape an enemy too strong to kill
5. Get past an environmental obstacle
6. Reach a destination faster than an opponent (overland movement, not tactical)
7. Find a hidden enemy base
8. Kill a horde of enemies
9. Disable someone without killing him
10. Take out a monster with one specific weakness, say, fire, silver, magical weapons, sunlight
11. Earn a lot of money, quickly.
12. Steal an item, undetected.

Some things that Stances available to a Warblade can give you:
Tiger Claw 1 - Hunter's Sense - Gain Scent
Iron Heart 3 - Absolute Steel Stance - +10ft movement speed (+12 miles/day walking)
Tiger Claw 3 - Leaping Dragon Stance - +10 to Jump checks, always considered running for jumps
Diamond Mind 5 - Hearing the Air - Gain blindsense 30ft, +5 to listen

I'm sure there are some more good ones, but those four are pretty great for utility.

Also taking someone down non-lethally is just a -4 to hit away.

Ziegander

2014-01-19, 08:42 AM

Some things that Stances available to a Warblade can give you:
Tiger Claw 1 - Hunter's Sense - Gain Scent
Iron Heart 3 - Absolute Steel Stance - +10ft movement speed (+12 miles/day walking)
Tiger Claw 3 - Leaping Dragon Stance - +10 to Jump checks, always considered running for jumps
Diamond Mind 5 - Hearing the Air - Gain blindsense 30ft, +5 to listen

I'm sure there are some more good ones, but those four are pretty great for utility.

Okay, and what do any of these do to help the Warblade out in the 12 situations Rogue Shadows posted?

Gemini476

2014-01-19, 11:13 AM

Okay, and what do any of these do to help the Warblade out in the 12 situations Rogue Shadows posted?
In combination with 4+Int skill points, Int as a somewhat useful stat, and Diplomacy, Knowledge(Local), Knowledge(History), and Intimidate?

1. Talk to a noble about his reward
Diplomacy.

2. Hunt for clues in a busy city
Knowledge(Local) 5 gives +2 to Gather Information, and Scent can let you track down (or Track down, if you have the feat) some more odorous clues. It really depends on what you are looking for, though.

3. Negotiate a hostage situation
Diplomacy. This is literally in the skill description.

4. Escape an enemy too strong to kill
How fast is it? You can get +10 to speed at the very least, which can let you get ahead of slower opponents. If they're the same speed as you after you have the stance up, it won't be able to catch you any way.
If it can teleport, then I should note that a good deal of Tier 3 classes are equally screwed in this situation.

5. Get past an environmental obstacle
What kind? Can you jump over it? +10 Jump means +10ft forward, and you can do that from a standing position. Jump is also a strength-based skill, so yeah.
If it's something like a wide, raging river? That's a DC 20 Swim check. Swim is a Strength-based class skill.
A cliff and/or chasm? Climb is a class skill, and you could maybe just tank the falling damage if you jumped across the chasm to grab the other side and then climb up it.
A river of lava? Put on your wading boots.

6. Reach a destination faster than an opponent (overland movement, not tactical)
+10 movement speed means that you move faster- not as fast as someone on a horse, granted, so maybe you should just buy one of those. If the opponent is (greater) teleporting, you sulk in the bar together with a bunch of the other Tier 3's who can't do that.
You might also lose to someone who can fly, seeing as they can take shortcuts. But, again, that's something a lot of classes will lose to.

7. Find a hidden enemy base
Some combination of Scent, Diplomacy, Intimidate, a +2 synergy bonus to Gather Information, and Blindsense. It really depends on how it is hidden, its location in relation to yourself, and whether or not it is actually findable. You're helpless against a guy in a demiplane, but you might be able to sniff out the hidden entrance to a base in a mountain if given enough time to comb the area.

8. Kill a horde of enemies
We're talking about a Warblade here, right? What kind of enemy is this? A horde of Tarrasques will just eat the Warblade alive, but something like a horde of mooks could probably be killed. Immunity from critical hits is in-class from Strength of Stone (Stone Dragon 8), for instance.
It also depends on if the rules from Heroes of Battle are used or not. Morale checks could clear out the battlefield somewhat quickly.
The Crusader is more suited to this kind of thing, though. Especially with Immortal Fortitude.

9. Disable someone without killing him
Non-lethal damage is a -4 to hit. Intimidate is a class skill. There are some Strikes that disarm the target.

10. Take out a monster with one specific weakness, say, fire, silver, magical weapons, sunlight
While everyone remembers Mountain Hammer, Stone Dragon also has two greater versions of it (Elder and Ancient Mountain Hammer) that deal +6d6 and +12d6 damage, respectively.
It doesn't help much against Regeneration, but for Regeneration you just need to pummel them into unconsciousness before you figure out how to solve the problem. Maybe grab some Trollbane, but the Tier System does not really rely on items IIRC.

11. Earn a lot of money, quickly.
Adventuring is the most profitable of professions. No, really. "Kill things and steal their stuff" gives you a bunch of money. It's not any more money than any other class could get, but the Duskblade is in the same boat.

12. Steal an item, undetected.
Alright, this one is trickier. I'm not entirely sure if it could be done easily, but a combination of using Blindsense to know if people are close, moving very slowly without armor, and keeping out of line-of-sight to avoid having to roll for Hide checks might work. Maybe use Climb to get up high or something.
If you want to pick a pocket rather than pretend to be in Mission Impossible, however, then I'm pretty sure that you're out of luck.

I'm not entirely sure that all of these tests are necessary for Tier 3, to be honest. Is the Duskblade Tier 3? How is the Dread Necromancer bypassing terrain, does he dam up the river with corpses? How does the Wildshape Ranger make money quickly? How on earth does a Factotum kill a horde of enemies? How does a Swordsage (the ToB class most agree to be T3) manage to be faster than a Paladin riding his horse?

Scow2

2014-01-19, 12:46 PM

Which is nevertheless only a small part of the game, however significant it might be.

What does a Warblade do when he needs to...

1. Talk to a noble about his reward
2. Hunt for clues in a busy city
3. Negotiate a hostage situation
4. Escape an enemy too strong to kill
5. Get past an environmental obstacle
6. Reach a destination faster than an opponent (overland movement, not tactical)
7. Find a hidden enemy base
8. Kill a horde of enemies
9. Disable someone without killing him
10. Take out a monster with one specific weakness, say, fire, silver, magical weapons, sunlight
11. Earn a lot of money, quickly.
12. Steal an item, undetected.

The vast majority of Tier-3s will have some form of response to each of these in any given build and be able to perform in a level-appropriate way, and will also have one or two areas where they really shine. A Tier-4 will have answers for a few, and maybe even the best answer for one or two, but be left floundering for the rest; or, alternatively, they'll be able to act in each one, but in a notably worse way than a Tier-3 class.
1. Intimidate or Diplomacy (Both Class skills, both worth investing in for a Warblade)
2. "Hunter's Stance" can help, as can tiger claw mobility to get to difficult-to-reach places clues may be hidden.
3. Use Tiger Claw mobility and White Raven or Iron Heart defenses (Or Martial Studied Dev. Spirit) to get into position to protect the Hostage, then massacre the hostage-takers.
4. Enemy to strong to kill? Surely you jest! ... but in that unlikely circumstance, Tiger Claw mobility and light armor gets him the hell out of there well enough.
5. Any "Ignore DR and Hardness" strike will work, or jump over it with Tiger Claw (Or climb, if he invests in that skill)
6. Get on a horse with a military saddle
7. Find an enemy that knows, and Intimidate. Or slaughter a line back to it.
8. Iron Heart is all about this!
9. Disarming Strike followed by a -4 to attacks for a few blows instead of PAing, then put on the hurt.
10. DR-ignoring strikes
11. Any way they damn well feel like.
12. Jumping all around! And intimidating/murdering any witnesses.

Zale

2014-01-19, 12:59 PM

You live in a supernatural world and fight supernatural foes with supernatural weapons.

You can fight giant magical lizards and punch literal incarnations of evil in the face. It's impossible to swing a stick without hitting a Paragon Half-Dragon house cat.

With all this magic floating around, it strains belief that some kind of fighting style to take advantage of it wouldn't pop up.

Why not allow a fighter to have supernatural fighting styles to fight supernatural foes? What's the issue? Knowing some magic tricks isn't going to make them a wizard anymore than knowing how to sneak around makes them a rogue.

Draz74

2014-01-19, 03:16 PM

I'm not entirely sure that all of these tests are necessary for Tier 3, to be honest. Is the Duskblade Tier 3? How is the Dread Necromancer bypassing terrain, does he dam up the river with corpses? How does the Wildshape Ranger make money quickly? How on earth does a Factotum kill a horde of enemies? How does a Swordsage (the ToB class most agree to be T3) manage to be faster than a Paladin riding his horse?

You've touched here on my opinion: the boundary between Tier 3 and Tier 4 is exceedingly vague. Really, they're more like one Tier that is just so big and so widely varying in power that it's more convenient to divide it in two ... wherever you feel like it?

I think I could make arguments for most accepted Tier 3 classes to be demoted to Tier 4. Bard and Beguiler, the most powerful T3 classes, are pretty safe, and Psychic Warrior would be hard to argue too (thanks to the Expanded Knowledge feat). But anything else seems like it would struggle with some of the challenges that are put forth as test rubrics in challenges like this.

Seerow

2014-01-19, 03:36 PM

You've touched here on my opinion: the boundary between Tier 3 and Tier 4 is exceedingly vague. Really, they're more like one Tier that is just so big and so widely varying in power that it's more convenient to divide it in two ... wherever you feel like it?

I think I could make arguments for most accepted Tier 3 classes to be demoted to Tier 4. Bard and Beguiler, the most powerful T3 classes, are pretty safe, and Psychic Warrior would be hard to argue too (thanks to the Expanded Knowledge feat). But anything else seems like it would struggle with some of the challenges that are put forth as test rubrics in challenges like this.

Dread Necro I'm pretty sure is still safe (especially if you're accounting for Expanded Knowledge for the Psywar). And I've seen strong arguments for the Totemist and Incarnate despite being iffy on them. Factotum is probably also still firmly Tier 3, between Inspiration and the smattering of spellcasting ability it gets, though that one is iffier than the others.

Duskblade, ToB classes, Binder, and Wildshape Ranger are all in that shady in-between zone between 3 and 4.

Emperor Tippy

2014-01-19, 04:52 PM

Dread Necro I'm pretty sure is still safe (especially if you're accounting for Expanded Knowledge for the Psywar). And I've seen strong arguments for the Totemist and Incarnate despite being iffy on them. Factotum is probably also still firmly Tier 3, between Inspiration and the smattering of spellcasting ability it gets, though that one is iffier than the others.

Duskblade, ToB classes, Binder, and Wildshape Ranger are all in that shady in-between zone between 3 and 4.

...Factotum is pretty much the quintessential tier 3.

It can throw down in melee or ranged combat with a Fighter, Scout, Barbarian, Rogue, or other Tier 4 combat focused character. It can out skillmonkey pretty much everything short of a Changeling Rogue build. It can cast up to 7th level spells and has native access to little things like Planar Binding (although, admittedly, at a later level than most). It can break the action economy better than pretty much anything short of a Psion, Wizard, or Sorcerer focused on doing just that (good luck beating Synchronicity Linked Synchronicity, Twinned Repeating Greater Celerity + Quickened Twinned Repeating Greater Celerity, or similar things). It can turn undead (and thus qualify for a number of nifty feats) and has some native magical healing ability (which is great at lower level because it can quickly eliminate the non lethal damage from a forced march and thus remove the fatigue).

It gets a great AC bonus, it can grab other classes class features, it can say "no" to lethal damage once per day, it can ignore DR and SR, it can gain Int to saving throws, and more.

This is just straight Factotum without any feats, any racial optimization, or any items.

Honestly, you can actually make a fairly credible argument that the Factotum breaks into Tier 2 thanks to the Planar Binding line and a few other spells that it can access natively.

ngilop

2014-01-23, 06:43 AM

Ok I am bakc again. This thread went almost as I expected it to; hijacked. derailed, off topic etc (well minus the plethora of insults i norally get, which im VERY happy about)

TO get back on topic I will do an example and I will probaly have more than 5 things I think make a good 'tier' 3 rating

1) a very solid 'niche' for a fighter it dealing and taking damage. Things like Martial aptitude, deadly, trueshot, cavlaier's charge and Mighty strike fulfuill the former while Indomnitibility, master parry, confidence, ebb and flow, and fortitude fulfill the latter

2) a way to influence social interaction. Intimidate, sense motive, imposing Force, commanding force, quality, and voice of authority meet the criteria here

3) Ability to affect more than just 1 mode of Defense, So a fighter can just straight up attack or use any damage adding Discipline( yet to be added untill I finish the Archetypes) One shot one kill targets fortitude, Volley targets reflex, Taunt targets will. Not too shabby.

4) mobility, albe to move around the battle field or just move.. period the Figher has speed of the wind, leap back, blurring speed, foot work, and lastly mobile combatant do this nicely

5) team assistance giving allies nice buffs extra goodies or enemy debuffs
Warlord, cover fire, Rally, inspiration, demoralizing blow and again more of the disicplines to e added round this out

6) action economy capitalization, abvle to do more than just move+standard/ or full round. Call to battle, adrenaline rush, sudden action, and once more some unlisted dsiciplines do this

7) Utility and miscalany wanna sneak well the fighter can't do it as good as the rogue but stalking mastery helps. wanna break that lock, door, wall, force effect allright well here is deep strength, brute force, and physical prowess

disple some magic.. Rupture magic has that for you random stuff liek creating an awesome army.. Make a warrior out of you is right up that alley. wanna clean the stables of Augeas well Legendary ability is there for you.

SO off the top of my head, those are the 5 ( well 7) things I feel make a good 'tier' 3