Custom staff questions

[Dalebert]

My first post got zero responses. I think it was too much like asking for help with my math homework, so I'll try to simplify.

First, are staves rechargeable? I could swear I heard or read they were somewhere but it doesn't say in the DMG that I can find. My understanding is you can add charges by casting spells into it that match what it can cast and they replace the number of charges that spell takes to cast from the staff.

I would call my custom staff a Staff of Life Energy, CL 9th.

Darts of Life (lvl 5 spell), 5 charges
Restoration (lvl 4 spell), 5 charges
Death Ward (lvl 4 spell), 2 charges
Vigor, Lesser (lvl 1 spell), 1 charge
Cure Light Wounds (lvl 1), 1 charge

Seem reasonable? Would you allow it as a DM? What would you change and why? A concern is that the staff comes out rather inexpensive as staves go (about 13k) which makes me wonder what's up. The math is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16779107#post16779107) if you care.

[Deophaun]

Staves were rechargeable in earlier editions. It is an alternate rule in 3.5 (hidden somewhere, I completely forget), and it basically follows the same cost for item creation, so you can't charge up your staff for free during downtime.

[ellindsey]

First, are staves rechargeable? I could swear I heard or read they were somewhere but it doesn't say in the DMG that I can find. My understanding is you can add charges by casting spells into it that match what it can cast and they replace the number of charges that spell takes to cast from the staff.

This is a rule in Pathfinder. It's not standard for staves in 3.5.

[CIDE]

There's always the wand surge feat. Use action points in place of charges on spell trigger items. Plenty of cheese on that with Artificer builds and methods of getting free action points. I don't know of any way to actually recharge the staff though.

[Dalebert]

What the heck is an action point?

[chainer1216]

its an eberron(and a few other nonDnD systems) thing, basically its a pool that you get only a few of over the course of leveling up, and normally you spend one and it does a thing, normally giving you a few d6 to add to any d20 roll.

[TuggyNE]

its an eberron(and a few other nonDnD systems) thing, basically its a pool that you get only a few of over the course of leveling up, and normally you spend one and it does a thing, normally giving you a few d6 to add to any d20 roll.

There's also a version from UA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm).

[CIDE]

What the heck is an action point?

Awesomesauce is what if the DM uses them.

[Dalebert]

He's new to DMing and to D&D. I'm fairly confident he doesn't want to complicate the game further.

[unseenmage]

Recharging Staffs is online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041130a) and in Dragon 338 pg 60.

The first is an optional rule the second is an alternantive class feature and a feat.

[ericgrau]

You need to multiply the most expensive ability by 100%, second most expensive ability by 75% and rest by 50%. So it's 14k, but otherwise the math is right. And that's the cost to create. The market price is 28k which is pretty normal.

There aren't any recharge rules but I've never had a staff run out and you can always make another one when it finally does. In the end it tends to be cheaper than permanent items because D&D encounters are so incredibly brief. PF has some recharge rules but you get less charges to make up for it.

As a DM I'd allow it. 5 charges is a bit uncommon for a staff ability but overall the staff isn't that crazy. If I players were abusing staffs left and right I might impose a 4 charge limit, but 5 charges on an unoptimized staff isn't even worth a second look. I'd let it right through. I mean why don't you use a wand of lesser vigor instead and leave both it and cure light wounds off of the staff? It's not like you don't have time to switch implements nor is 50 uses too many for that particular spell.

[Dalebert]

You need to multiply the most expensive ability by 100%, second most expensive ability by 75% and rest by 50%. So it's 14k, but otherwise the math is right.

The DMG says to start with the highest level spell; not the most expensive.

[ericgrau]

It says "highest level spell" then "next most costly ability" so it's a bit of a self contradiction (or a rules loophole, depending on how abusive you are). Either way isn't that different though. And technically the creation rules only refer to 1 or 2 charge spells even though many example staffs have spells that cost more charges.

[Dalebert]

I mean why don't you use a wand of lesser vigor instead and leave both it and cure light wounds off of the staff? It's not like you don't have time to switch implements nor is 50 uses too many for that particular spell.

Given that it's not rechargeable, that's exactly what I would do. I would just make a wand of the 1st level effects. There's no benefit to including them. In fact, I'm not finding this item very appealing anymore and I'm not likely to take the feat to make staves. The main thing is just not wanting to have to always waste a spell slot on restoration in order to be prepared for the many undead who level drain. They're just common enough for it to seem important to have available if needed but not common enough to feel a permanent loss of a 4th level slot is justified. I'll probably just keep a couple scrolls of it handy, mainly for if my cleric gets drained and is no longer able to prepare and cast it himself. Otherwise my party will just generally have to wait until dusk when I prepare spells to get restored.

[ericgrau]

The other spells are worth it and like I said you're unlikely to ever run out of charges. At least not before you're way richer. Overall you save money vs. permanent items given how few times you use them in D&D. More spells are always nice on a caster. But whatever you want to do. And if you only expect something to happen a couple times then ya scrolls are better. If you expect it to happen 5-10 times or more then a staff may be better.

Removing the two unnecessary spells takes 3375 gp off the cost to create btw, and then you buy a 750 gp wand. Plus you get to devote all 50 charges on the wand to healing not merely part of 50 charges.

[Dalebert]

If you expect it to happen 5-10 times or more then a staff may be better.

If I make it, I would probably just make a staff of restoration. That probably makes more sense. I don't really see much sense in combining multiple effects in one staff based on the cost structure without a less expensive recharge option. It seems to make more sense to have multiple staves.

I guess the point of making a staff is it's cheaper per pop than a scroll (340gp vs. 450gp). Of course, just preparing and casting it is only 100gp so that's always preferable. A wand is cheaper still, per charge, but a staff requires less up-front investment. At 5 charges a pop, you only have to spend 3400 on it. A wand will cost about 15k to make and I'd probably never use all the charges. I guess another thing to consider is I'd actually have a potential chance of failure with a scroll if I had to use it on myself because my own level had dropped.

Meanwhile, the darts of life spell is versatile enough to be worth it to go ahead and prepare much of the time.

Given that, I think it might be worthwhile to take the feat and maybe retrain it in a level or two.

[ericgrau]

For between combat stuff with unlimited charge cost it makes sense to have multiple staves. For in combat stuff or if there is a limit on the charge cost of a spell you want multiple spells on one staff. The reason for combining multiple combat spells onto one staff is because you don't want to waste time switching staffs. The reason for wanting a higher charge cost is that having too many unused charges leftover is a bigger issue than running out of charges. Having multiple spells on one staff also has a similar effect to a high charge cost: it's easier to use up your charges and not have too many wasted charges leftover.

Darts of life and death ward could go well together on the same staff. You could also prepare 1 copy of darts of life on top of that, but this way you don't have to prepare multiple copies when you might not always need multiple. Death ward you would not prepare, because often you don't need any copies, but it's nice to have ready. Restoration goes better on scrolls for a small number of uses, but if you expect a large number of uses you could throw it on the staff too. For a very large number of uses or if your DM doesn't limit the charge cost of restoration (for example if you could make it cost 10 charges per use), then you could put restoration in its own staff apart from the other staff. A wand is probably way too much for restoration.

[Dalebert]

Having multiple spells on one staff also has a similar effect to a high charge cost: it's easier to use up your charges and not have too many wasted charges leftover.

But that's easily addressed by just having numbers that divide evenly into 50. If you do put a low level spell at a cost of one charge, it makes sense to pick something that scales well with level. That's a key benefit of staves since they're arbitrarily high CL and let you use your own if it's higher. Otherwise it's hard to justify the cost.


Darts of life and death ward could go well together on the same staff.

It seems hard to justify the cost of a couple of high level effects on the same staff when you get so many more uses of them by putting them on separate staves. It seems to make more sense to combine one high level effect with one or two low level effects that scale well with CL.


Restoration goes better on scrolls for a small number of uses, but if you expect a large number of uses you could throw it on the staff too.

I see no logic in adding that to another staff. It just makes the uses more expensive than being in its own staff and it will never be an in-combat spell.


(for example if you could make it cost 10 charges per use)

They don't say it but the highest charge cost on any of the staves was 5 so I assumed that was the limit. It seems reasonable. The description only refers to making something with 2 charges but that's obviously not the only case based on the examples. 10 seems to be pushing it to me. Hell, why not make an effect take 50 charges and then it will cost less than a scroll to make a single use item that's also easier to use? :)

[ericgrau]

The reason for not having multiple staffs is that it takes 2 move actions to switch staffs which means you lose a combat round which you cannot afford. For between combat stuff then ya you may as well have 1 spell on a staff, unless 10 uses (50/5) are too many.

Come to think of it 10d8 for 1-2 actions isn't that great of a combat spell for a 5th level slot. Unless you cast it before combat, but that requires a few minutes notice of the fight. So then it may go well on a staff by itself and not prepared, to use only when you are not being ambushed. Perhaps even metamagic it into silent darts of life if you can find another cleric with silent spell to assist you in the crafting.

[Dalebert]

Come to think of it 10d8 for 1-2 actions isn't that great of a combat spell for a 5th level slot.

What other ranged heals do you know of? It seems handy when you need to do combat heals and it's not practical to get into place for a touch. It has a decent duration so you can pop heals as needed throughout the combat and then top people off afterward with what's left. Seems like a situation that I find myself in often enough.

[ericgrau]

Rather than blow two actions on 10d8 I'd prefer to not heal at all and do something else, or risk an attack of opportunity to touch, or pick up reach spell. I was thinking of casting darts of life ahead of time then using the free action option during combat and actual combat actions on something more efficient. I mean past 10th level how do you expect 22 points of healing per round to accomplish much of anything?

Anyway I did find Insignia of Healing from Races of Destiny and Close Wounds from spell compendium. Insignia of healing is 1/3 as much healing as darts of life but it hits all of your allies, only takes one action rather than two and it's only 3rd level. Like other mass heals it combines well with 24 hours of shield other so at minimum you have two targets for double the benifit. Close wounds is 1d4+5, i.e. 1/6th as much healing. But it's only 2nd level and you can pop one as an immediate action every round to get almost as much healing without ever blowing a single standard action. So, heck, get both and use them at the same time. Next you pick up imbue with spell ability (4th level, PHB), and give all your allies the ability to use close wounds. With your 3-4 castings plus one from each ally suddenly you're getting more healing than darts of life without losing a single standard action. While you're at it imbue the same allies with divine favor in case they get a buff round (otherwise they shouldn't bother).

If you aren't allowed either of those (they are a bit strong) then a mass cure light wounds is still usually better than darts of life. About the same as insignia of healing but in a 5th level slot rather than 3rd.