Best 'Magic' system in an MMO?

[mistformsquirrl]

So, lately I've been playing RIFT again, it's a pretty good game, and a good way to kill some time while I wait for Wildstar and Elder Scrolls Online to come out...

That said, I'm finding playing a wizard* in RIFT a bit... hrm... dry. The magic doesn't feel that magical I guess... it's a rote pattern of re-re-re-re-casting the same few spells over and over again while my pet holds down the mob in place.

I grant that's par for the course for MMOs, and not just with magic either - so I'm not really upset with RIFT for doing it that way - heck I'm 99.9% sure both the games I'm waiting on will do likewise too - it's easier to balance magic when it's just a specific set of abilities that are primarily various blasts.

Rather, what I'm interested in is what you think is an MMO that actually did magic a little more interestingly perhaps?

For me the only game with interesting magic that I can think of would probably have to be Wizard101. It relies on a fundamentally different battle system than your standard MMO though, and plays very uniquely due to that. Unfortunately for me... it really is aimed at young kids, and while the battle system is interesting, it's a little oversimplified for me; likewise the storyline isn't of any particular interest, at least as far as I've ever made it.**

Other than that... I can't think of any that have been particularly interesting; but that said, there are a LOT of MMOs out there and I've only played so many, so I figured I'd just see if anyone else has run into a game or two with more interesting magic systems.

Ideas?

(By "Magic" I'm referring to using something other than a weapon generally speaking - so in a sci-fi game "nanite" powers and "science!" abilities that don't actually make much sense also qualify.)


*Well a mage, specifically an Elementalist/Chloromancer/Dominator - only the first two have any points in them mind, the latter is purely for the crowd control spell Transmogrify.

**Sidenote - if someone used Pirate101 or Wizard101 as the basis for a more standard MMO, I think I'd be all over that game in a heartbeat. Turn based card duel battles or turn based team-based strategy as a method of handling MMO combat? Sign me up!

[Tebryn]

Asheron's Call probably had the best before a bunch of people ruined it. You had to research spells and the fewer people who knew a spell made it more powerful. You had to put runes together to make each spell after your starting ones, so you could discover ancient and powerful magics that way. A bunch of people went through the date and found the recipes and posted them for everyone to use so the people who made the game just gave every spell flat damage.

[Ogremindes]

Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine Online was interesting in that working with elemental affinities mattered hugely. You could take out enemies that vastly out powered you with the right spell. (melee and gun had ways of eliciting similar results). Past tense because I haven't looked at the game for ages.

[Calen]

**Sidenote - if someone used Pirate101 or Wizard101 as the basis for a more standard MMO, I think I'd be all over that game in a heartbeat. Turn based card duel battles or turn based team-based strategy as a method of handling MMO combat? Sign me up!

I haven't played Pirate or Wizard but have you looked at Wakfu? It has a turned based-combat system and spell-leveling mechanics.

[tensai_oni]

Asheron's Call probably had the best before a bunch of people ruined it. You had to research spells and the fewer people who knew a spell made it more powerful. You had to put runes together to make each spell after your starting ones, so you could discover ancient and powerful magics that way. A bunch of people went through the date and found the recipes and posted them for everyone to use so the people who made the game just gave every spell flat damage.

Honestly, expecting this not to happen in an MMO is like expecting for strategy guides not to pop up for a strategy game.

We live in an era of information. Trying to keep knowledge away from the playerbase is a futile task. If one person gets to know something, soon enough everyone will know it except those who ignore online guides on purpose.


Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine Online was interesting in that working with elemental affinities mattered hugely. You could take out enemies that vastly out powered you with the right spell. (melee and gun had ways of eliciting similar results). Past tense because I haven't looked at the game for ages.

Elemental affinities matter, but spellcasting in that game is still a rote-like "use correct spell against correct monster".

OP, I'm afraid that a system you are looking for doesn't exist. Every MMO has set spell lists and set effects, and spellcasting is rote-like because well, that's just how gaming works.

To let your players create their own spells and effects is to officially give up on game balance since day one. I'm talking "if there is a way to hideously break the game, players will find it" levels of unbalance. And then everyone will end up using the same broken spells anyway.

[Slylizard]

Magicka.

You have 8 different elements (water, fire, lightning, earth, cold, shield, arcane, life), and 4 different casting styles (beam/force, self, enchant, area).

You can combine up to 5 elements, then choose a casting style to create a spell.

So for example a fireball is a combination of earth and fire, and the beam/force casting style. Do the same spell but use a self casting style and you'll drop it on your head.

You can make some fun combinations... even more fun when you add in multiplayer :P

[Hiro Protagonest]

Trials of Ascension is going to have the requirement that you have to attain spells through research, which includes killing magical creatures. I'd really like more people to pay attention to Trials of Ascension. :smalltongue: It's going to be a hardcore, always-on PvP, player-controlled settlements game, so basically the evolution of Ultima Online. You can't see people's stats though, so high-level players can troll gankers.

So yeah, not actually available yet (they've got a proof of concept that they showed investors, but that's about it. They're going to put up a kickstarter), and although casuals might be able to get by with friends, not exactly casual-friendly magic.

[mistformsquirrl]

I haven't played Pirate or Wizard but have you looked at Wakfu? It has a turned based-combat system and spell-leveling mechanics.

Never heard of Wakfu <o.O> But I may have to look into it.

@tensai_oni - You're probably right of course. I just know I'm really enjoying playing magic users in D&D at present, and I really wish there was a way to replicate that awesome feeling of "I have the tools to deal with virtually any problem, as long as I give it some thought."

@Slylizard - Magicka is fun, I have it, but it's no MMO I'm afraid hehe;

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Come to think of it, another good candidate for good magic, even if it is fairly standard in a lot of ways - Everquest around Ruins of Kunark expansion. It's not that the combat magic was particularly interesting, but rather that spellcasters had access to a fair number of non-combat utility spells. Things like Invisibility*, or Levitate, a spell that let you hover over the terrain by about 6ft (very useful for crossing water safely), and so on and so forth. A lot of those spells even required material components found on lower level monsters. Levitate for instance required Bat Wings.

Course EQ had a lot of other problems that turned me away from it, but I do remember the magic feeling a twinge more... well... magical, than in most modern MMOs.

@Jade_Dragon - The magic sounds interesting, sadly I am not much for PVP other than dabbling in battleground type stuff once in a blue moon, so a game like that is probably one that I'd avoid. I don't want my carebear stuffing spilled all over the map <,<

*May not sound especially useful in an MMO, but EQ, at least back then (dunno about now) - was very solo unfriendly, and also required a lot of travel by foot over sometimes enormous distances. Invisibility made things much safer during some of the more difficult areas where mob density was high.

[Tebryn]

Honestly, expecting this not to happen in an MMO is like expecting for strategy guides not to pop up for a strategy game.

We live in an era of information. Trying to keep knowledge away from the playerbase is a futile task. If one person gets to know something, soon enough everyone will know it except those who ignore online guides on purpose.

Well, that's true today. Asheron's Call came out in 1999 before data mining MMO's was really that big a thing. It took off after for sure however.

[Hiro Protagonest]

@Jade_Dragon - The magic sounds interesting, sadly I am not much for PVP other than dabbling in battleground type stuff once in a blue moon, so a game like that is probably one that I'd avoid. I don't want my carebear stuffing spilled all over the map <,<

*May not sound especially useful in an MMO, but EQ, at least back then (dunno about now) - was very solo unfriendly, and also required a lot of travel by foot over sometimes enormous distances. Invisibility made things much safer during some of the more difficult areas where mob density was high.

There'll be plenty of PvE. But yeah, always-on PvP, ability to play as the main monster race, other monstrous races potentially (one of the stretch goals for their first attempt at Kickstarter was a dragon race. Like, actual dragons), PvP is going to be a big part.

[Psyren]

If by "interesting magic" you mean something other than damage, healing, cc and limited teleportation then you're in for disappointment.

Magicka is probably going to be your best bet for interesting spellcasting in a CRPG but as you noted, it's definitely not an MMO.

[Kaww]

If by "interesting magic" you mean something other than damage, healing, cc and limited teleportation then you're in for disappointment.

Magicka is probably going to be your best bet for interesting spellcasting in a CRPG but as you noted, it's definitely not an MMO.

You forgot buffs and debuffs. But, yes, it's hard to make a balanced spell system if you don't have rather strict rules about it. We first thought of implementing spells that aren't as standard, but after about two hours of brainstorming we found no way to balance it. As such any game would fail miserably.

I suggested to my team that we should have friendly fire, like in any proper FRP. I was vetoed so fast by so many people that you wouldn't believe. I'm fond of the idea that magic should be powerful, if used correctly. Their reply was that mediocre players should have fun playing casters too.

Don't get me wrong we're planing more than 500 spells. It's just that in the end it all comes down to damage/shape, healing, buffs, cc, debuffs and blinking around. Well we do have two more types of spells, but I'm under NDA for some aspects of the game.

[Winters Heart]

Trials of Ascension has me interested as well - magic is actually supposed to be a rarity there, and hard to get. Though we don't really know much more at the moment. But at that rate you'd hope to expect more than just flat damage spells, as wizards would be few and far between, plus I believe all characters are created on a more or less even footing, and only developed as you play rather than being a defined role.

I'd backed the kickstarter that fluffed it a while ago, they jsut didn't manage to come close to getting the amount they needed, which is a shame, as it seems a pretty unique experience to say the least. And while pvp will be constantly on, it seems that would just leave all the more incentive to work together with people playing.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Not an MMO, but Neverwinter Nights (from 2002) had a very good form of real-time D&D (the only reason I'm even familiar with D&D). While it still had the basic buffs/debuffs/damage/cc, it's the complexity, number of effects, mechanics and general backstory behind each spell that made it very interesting. Plus if you were a Cleric, Druid or Wizard, you could easily use like a hundred spells for each class.

Seriously, take a spell like "Grease." Might seem like a normal low-level CC spell, but it's got extra character that it can make mobs fall down if they fail a reflex check.

Most of this is D&D mechanics though.

Also, KOTOR, which is the exact same system, by the same company, but STAR WARS.

That said, I always imagined the best part about magic would be its utility (think Harry Potter, where literally everything can be done with magic). This is really hard to implement as anything other than a gimmick.

[Psyren]

I think the best way to have fun magic in an MMO is for everyone to have it, which probably means a sci-fi setting with psi powers and gadgets for the non-psychic. That way you have, for instance, ways for every character in the world to fly or fight at ranged or heal wounds etc. But the challenge then would be differentiating someone with powers from someone whose abilities come from machines. Alternatively, it could be set in a world whose physics are just generally different, like the Matrix Online tried to do.


You forgot buffs and debuffs.

Those tend to just be roundabout ways of doing more damage so I lumped them under that heading. Though I will add mitigation as a 5th category since that isn't really cc, and can be magical for classes like Paladins and Death Knights.

[mistformsquirrl]

I'm starting to wonder if my problem in RIFT isn't so much that I don't like their magic, bland as it is (as that does seem to be the norm) - but rather that maybe I picked the wrong class combination. It's very very safe, but quite slow and boring. Hrm, I will have to think on this some.