E6 Monk

[RegalKain]

Ok so, we're playing an Epic 6 campaign, starting off at level 1, it's a medium-magic setting, and my DM and I are the only two people who power-game or optimize at all, so I was poking around looking for ways to not be broken, I realize what I'm going to say next is like kicking everyone in the gonads and saying don't hit me, but please don't hit me.

I wanted to try a Vow of Poverty Monk, I have a decent reason for this and I'll post that now.

Currently the party consists of a Fighter who is a ranged combatant, he's pretty run of the mill Chaotic Good, not a big deal and is generally usefull in combat (As ranged people tend to be at level 1)

We have a Chaotic Neutral Rogue (Played by a friend who often roleplays as a crazy person) he's not that effective in combat right now, but we've mostly been hit with Undead so he hasn't had a chance to shine yet.

Then we have a Chaotic Evil Bard, who is also Undead. She plays her character really quite evil, but she's been forced to play a little more carefully, as I am currently a Lawful Good (Not Lawful Stupid mind you) Paladin. So far there have been more rolls in party with Bluff and Sense Motive then there has been against NPCs by at least four times over. It's made the campaign hilarious up to this point.

The reason I'm rolling a backup character, is in our very first dungeon, our Rogue crit failed a search check and we didn't see a pitfall trap. We almost party wiped in said pitfall trap, as I went forward, fell, failed my reflex save, the Bard pushed the fighter into the hole, then forgot to tie off the rope I had thrown up, grabbed the rope and jumped into the hole after us, even though I said no don't. Again hilarity ensued. So I don't expect my Paladin to live very long, as he's either going to meet an untimely end thanks to party antics, or an undead is gonna walk by and crush him since my team isn't that effect at battling undead.

That said, he will be Lawful Neutral, the party works for a guild in a town, we do missions and quests etc, we get free food, room and board, the guild takes a cut of what we make and the rest is up to us, we're offered discounted services on many things, identifying items, potions etc.

HP is auto-maxed at each level, so if you have a D12 hit dice, you'll get 12 HP every level, not counting your con. There are my stats,
Race:Human
Str-10
Dex-16 (+2 Feats)=18
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 15
As our DM is running E6 we are allowed to take a feat to improve an ability score by 1, we may take a feat multiple times and it will stack.

Traits: Brawler +1 Unarmed attack rolls, and grapple checks, -1 on all other attack rolls.
Flaws- -2 On all ranged attack rolls.
Frail- -1HP Per level (Giving me 9 HP a level.)

Feat Breakdown:
Human: Sacred Vow
Shaky: Vow of Poverty
Frail:+1 Dex
1st Level: +1Dex
Monk 1st: Improved Grapple
Exalted: Nimbus of Light

Saves: F-4 R-6 W-5
AC: 21 Touch:17 Flat-footed:17

Thoughts and opinions on where to take the character from here? I thought VoP might work in an E6 campaign, because the magic items never get TO out of hand and most Caster craziness doesn't work as well.

I want to take Intuitive attack next level, I also plan to get Combat Reflexes, and Holy Radiance (Undead heavy campaign and it adds a bit of damage.) A houserule to be aware of, is that You can get Uncanny Dodge through a feat Chain, either Combat Expertise, or Combat Reflexes, you can also take it if you have a +5Bab, I plan to get Uncanny Dodge at some point as well, and if I have the feat left over, grab Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Edit: In hindsight, I'm really thinking about making my Wis 18 instead of my Dex, seeing as I'll be getting Intuitive Attack, maybe that's a better way to go?

[Ruethgar]

I would suggest a Chaos Martial Monk instead of a regular monk, take a one level dip with a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem City Brawler Dashing Step Barbarian and a one level dip of Shapeshift Druid. Ascetic Mage and optimize for Cha instead of Wis and go with one level of Battle Dancer and the rest monk. Superior Unarmed Attack is your friend as it would make up for lost monk progression.

Of course Incarnum would let you fill item slots without breaking the Vow if you wanted, but that is less monk-like even though the totemist is all about natural attacks.

But those are just my thoughts.

[RegalKain]

I would suggest a Chaos Martial Monk instead of a regular monk, take a one level dip with a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem City Brawler Dashing Step Barbarian and a one level dip of Shapeshift Druid. Ascetic Mage and optimize for Cha instead of Wis and go with one level of Battle Dancer and the rest monk. Superior Unarmed Attack is your friend as it would make up for lost monk progression.

Of course Incarnum would let you fill item slots without breaking the Vow if you wanted, but that is less monk-like even though the totemist is all about natural attacks.

But those are just my thoughts.

Hmm, I know of the Chaos Monk, I had a friend who played one, sadly I don't know the source of it anymore. As for the very-longnamed Barbarian, what exactly is that from? Forgive me I've been a member of GITP for some time, but I mostly lurk, so I'm not nearly as adapt at knowing sources off the top of my head.

Edit: I found Chaos Monk is from Dragon Mag 335, I believe my DM has access to it so I'll grab him when he wakes up and snag it, as for the other though, I'm still a bit lost, I've heard of Totem barbarian being tossed around before, but I'm not sure if the rest of that are class variants are what, forgive my ignorance.

[Gemini476]

I'd recommend that you don't take Vow of Poverty in an E6 game. After 6th level the only things that advance the power of your characters are feats and items, and while you still get feats Vow of Poverty stops advancing. And given that VoP didn't manage to scale properly against WBL while it actually scaled, that's not a good thing.

I guess you could use it to anti-optimize and keep your monk in line with the rest of the party, but really? You'll probably be better off skipping it so that you can at least carry some of the loot.

(For reference, the only thing you'll get from VoP is +7 AC, three feats, +1 hits that count as magic, Endure Elements, and Sustenance. That isn't worth it.)

[Lord Vukodlak]

I agree with above dump vow of poverty and put that 15 into strength.

[HMS Invincible]

I don't suppose we can convince you to go unarmed swordsage and call your self a spirital melee warrior, errr, monk.

[Nightraiderx]

bah, if you want to do it then incarnum is the way to do it stylistically, you can get pounce through it and then build interesting soulmelds to make yourself look like a spirit warrior, I would also suggest an Azurin Base for the extra point in the soulmeld. Just grab melds that have a good starting bonus and don't need alot although you are still limited by your con score. VOP would hinder even incarnum because there are nice items that boost what essentia you have.

Another idea is to gish unarmed swordsage with ardent. with an Ardent 2/Unarmed Swordsage 4 you can grab third level manuevers and 3rd lvl powers.

Also powerpoints create a faster recovery and you can always build on your psionic feats after 6th.

[RegalKain]

My big problem with going something other then Monk, is I don't want to over-optimize to much, last time I did that in a low-level D&D campaign it broke the campaign and the DM and I decided it'd be best if I re-rolled and retired that character, I'd like to avoid doing that, I understand Vow of Poverty is pretty weak, I'm taking with my DM now to allow feats to proceed it's chain up further then 6th level.

After looking at Chaos Monk I mostly see why I was asked to take it, it allows me to be non-lawful, again from a power-gaming standpoint I can understand that, sadly I'd like to stay Lawful as that gives the party something vaguely resembling a moral compass. Though Unarmed Swordsage is tempting, I'll have to look into it, see if I like it more then Monk, and if I can still do it with VOP.

[HMS Invincible]

My big problem with going something other then Monk, is I don't want to over-optimize to much, last time I did that in a low-level D&D campaign it broke the campaign and the DM and I decided it'd be best if I re-rolled and retired that character, I'd like to avoid doing that, I understand Vow of Poverty is pretty weak, I'm taking with my DM now to allow feats to proceed it's chain up further then 6th level.

After looking at Chaos Monk I mostly see why I was asked to take it, it allows me to be non-lawful, again from a power-gaming standpoint I can understand that, sadly I'd like to stay Lawful as that gives the party something vaguely resembling a moral compass. Though Unarmed Swordsage is tempting, I'll have to look into it, see if I like it more then Monk, and if I can still do it with VOP.
You're comparing a Tome of Battle class to a mundane tier 4. The answer should be obvious, but then again, I'm biased against monks.

[RegalKain]

I think I'm gonna stick with Monk/VOP for this particular character (We're still level 1) and if/when he dies, I'll probably look into a Swordsage, or the Swordsage/Ardent that sounds pretty fun. I'll probably roll and stat him up soon-ish as another backup. Never hurts to be safe, especially with this party and our luck.

[Ruethgar]

Not Totem, Spirit Totem, big difference. City Brawler and Dashing Step are from Dragon 349. Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed only, and no AC penalty on a charge respectively at the cost of armor and martial weapon proficiencies for city brawler and trap sense for dashing step.

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian I think is Complete Champion, take out fast movement, get pounce. Whirling Frenzy is a rage variant for even more attacks in your flurry of misses. Shapeshift druid is Player's Handbook II and just gives you free speed, strength and natural armor to make up for the -6 you are taking on a full attack.

And unless you are going swordsage with shadow hand focus, I would suggest a little more focus on strength over dexterity.

[Sayt]

I'd drop Still Mind for the Prayerful meditation ACF from Complete Champion if you stick with Monk. Swap out a bonus against mind effecting for a bonus against spells and spelllikes from sources which are chaotic, and/or opposed to you on the Good/Evil spectrum.

[RegalKain]

Looking through Swordsage a lot more, I'm really tempted to go Shadow Hand discipline, trying to figure out a way to make it work backstory and RP wise, especially if I take VOP. I could pump dex and Wis, and leave Str as a dumpstat and not have to worry to much about it, outside of carrying capacity, which I won't be worrying about all that much if I'm VOP anyway. Hmmmm I saved the Monk/VOP he's set off to the side and ready to play, I'm working on this guy on another sheet to see how he can turn out, and if I like him, the guy currently playing the Fighter (Ranged) is making a backup character as well and he's interested in Swordsage, so we're thinking up ways to Synchronize our Swordsages to better work with one another, and enter as brothers or something, or maybe rivals, go opposite ends of one Spectrum alignment wise.

[DarkSonic1337]

Speaking of Swordsage how do people feel about changing the "You can take this feat up to three times" line from Martial Study to "You can take this feat up to multiple times" for an E6 game.

After all extra spell, extra slot, ect have no such limitation.

I'd take the limit off of extra readied maneuver too (though...not extra granted maneuver because of idiot crusader shenanigans.)

[RegalKain]

Speaking of Swordsage how do people feel about changing the "You can take this feat up to three times" line from Martial Study to "You can take this feat up to multiple times" for an E6 game.

After all extra spell, extra slot, ect have no such limitation.

I'd take the limit off of extra readied maneuver too (though...not extra granted maneuver because of idiot crusader shenanigans.)

I could totally see that as being ok. I don't think it'd lead to, to much brokenness, but the other GITP'ers would know better if it could indeed break something, sorry I'm not nearly as good at optimizing as many here are.

I was browsing races with my buddy, I was looking pretty carefully at Kenku, Strongheart Halfling and Hadozee, the first two make me Small which is problematic (I plan on going Shadowhand so I can dump Str and Cha if need be.) for unarmed damage progression, however I'm thinking the boost to AC, and the increased Dex would make up for the size change? With Shadowhand I'd be dealing +5 on every hit with Dex to damage, (assuming Shadow Blade) The feat tax is making me lean towards Strongheart Halfling (Bonus feat yaaaay) the Kenku interest me because if my friend and I both play Shadowhand SwordSages (Which is how it's looking.) Island of Blades would let us flank more easily, and as Kenku we'd get a +4 to hit instead of a +2, again they are small, so not sure if worth.

The Hadozee are good because well Medium, +2Dex -2Str is nice. We're trying to avoid playing humans, cause to be honest it's rather stuffy and boring for us. Thoughts? :o Wish I could change the title to E6 character, instead of monk, alas.

[strider24seven]

Martial Monk; take Weapon Supremacy and Shock Trooper at first and second level.

That said, how are you taking Exalted feats as a Lawful Neutral character?

[RegalKain]

Martial Monk; take Weapon Supremacy and Shock Trooper at first and second level.

That said, how are you taking Exalted feats as a Lawful Neutral character?

Umm, unless I'm seriously missing something, Sacred Vow and VOP don't require a Good alignment? As there are feats that specifically state you have to be of good alignment? Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, if I am I'll talk to my DM and see what he's willing to allow or disallow, may have to scrap the VOP Monk, but I don't see that as the case. Also Martial Monk? Where is that from if I may be so pestersome as to ask.

Awww, it's an ACF that basically allows Fighter feats instead of Monk feats, I was really hoping it was a ToB style Monk. QQ

[Gemini476]

Umm, unless I'm seriously missing something, Sacred Vow and VOP don't require a Good alignment? As there are feats that specifically state you have to be of good alignment? Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, if I am I'll talk to my DM and see what he's willing to allow or disallow, may have to scrap the VOP Monk, but I don't see that as the case. Also Martial Monk? Where is that from if I may be so pestersome as to ask.

[Exalted] feats require you to be Good. Like, ridiculously Good. Sacred Vows kind of add onto that to make you like a less effective Paladin with all the restrictions you get.

Similarly, [Vile] feats require you to be Evil, [Abyssal Heritor] make you Chaotic if you have two of them, and I think there's another one for the Nine Hells and being Lawful?

You also have stuff like [Epic] requiring you to be level 21+ or an Old Dragon, and some other types of feats with prerequisites that I can't remember.

[RegalKain]

[Exalted] feats require you to be Good. Like, ridiculously Good. Sacred Vows kind of add onto that to make you like a less effective Paladin with all the restrictions you get.

Similarly, [Vile] feats require you to be Evil, [Abyssal Heritor] make you Chaotic if you have two of them, and I think there's another one for the Nine Hells and being Lawful?

You also have stuff like [Epic] requiring you to be level 21+ or an Old Dragon, and some other types of feats with prerequisites that I can't remember.

Ahhh, hmmm you're right it says in the Chapter Description they have to be good...that's so odd though, - Nevermind, I was looking at General Feats and was like "Why do these specifically say you have to be good, what the deuce." Thanks for the clarification! I'll speak with my DM and probably just scrap the VOP Monk then. Makes me kinda sad.

Edit: This is why I love GITP, you guys catch friggin everything man, stuff I'd miss cause I don't generally look at footnotes and stuff pre-chapter. e_e I should read better.

Edit2: I've come to the realization that in E6, unless I'm TWF I won't ever get a second attack. This makes me a bit sad, any decent ways around this to add more damage to the build? Without dipping caster?

[strider24seven]

Natural attacks are probably the way to go (even if you cannot Flurry with them). Incarnum is very good about getting natural attacks. Perhaps a Totemist dip?

[DarkSonic1337]

Natural Attacks (I'd suggest a Totemist dip),the Steel Wind Maneuver (strike two opponents within reach), the Wolf Fang Strike Maneuver (make one attack with each weapon), Snap Kick feat (make one unarmed strike when you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons), Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (make one extra attack on a full attack during rage), Karmic Strike (someone hits you, you get an attack of opportunity on them). Actually, just check this thread. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595

Have you considered the Whisper Gnome race? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3

They make EXCELLENT choices for a sneaky character with their huge bonuses to stealth skills and even SILENCE as a spell like ability (and the silencing strike feat for you sneak attackers)

[RegalKain]

Natural Attacks (I'd suggest a Totemist dip),the Steel Wind Maneuver (strike two opponents within reach), the Wolf Fang Strike Maneuver (make one attack with each weapon), Snap Kick feat (make one unarmed strike when you make a melee attack with one or more melee weapons), Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (make one extra attack on a full attack during rage), Karmic Strike (someone hits you, you get an attack of opportunity on them).

Thank you for the suggestions! However I can't take some of those. Snap Kick (If I am Swordsage) because I never obtain a BAB of 6 (I stop at 4, remember it's an Epic 6 campaign.) Steel Wind I could do if I went Warblade, but then I can't be the unarmed variant for Swordsage. As it's looking I'm gonna wind up playing a Barbarian, someone earlier on suggest it and it's looking like the smart option so far. Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian seems pretty efficient at punching people to death. Not sure if I'm going to stay Barbarian the whole 6 levels, or not right now, I was thinking of Barbarian 2/Fighter2/ Then poking at some prestige classes, Fighter gives me a ton of Feats to work with, if I need them for Prestige classes, we'll see.

[JusticeZero]

My usual question here is, as always, "Why Monk?" There is nothing that the crunch brings to the table that can't be done in other ways. What do you see the character doing?

[DarkSonic1337]

You can pick up steel wind through Martial Study. It's a 1st level maneuver so you only need a Warblade IL of 1 (which you get from 2 levels in any other class).

Remember that this is an e6 campaign. Feats are much less valuable than actual class features! Honestly I think you should look at Warblade 4 instead of unarmed swordsage. You should look at Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian 1/ Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 (grabs improved trip without prereqs)/Warblade 4 as an option.

Full Bab (which opens up +6 Bab feats like improved two weapon fighting and snap kick), 3rd level maneuvers from the best disciplines, and 2 stances. Grab superior unarmed strike, snap kick, two weapon fighting, and buy a pair of gloves of the balanced hand. Enjoy your 6 attack full attack routine, complete with trips (and free attacks on said trips) and bonus damage (from punishing stance).

[RegalKain]

You can pick up steel wind through Martial Study. It's a 1st level maneuver so you only need a Warblade IL of 1 (which you get from 2 levels in any other class).

Remember that this is an e6 campaign. Feats are much less valuable than actual class features! Honestly I think you should look at Warblade 4 instead of unarmed swordsage. You should look at Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian 1/ Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 (grabs improved trip without prereqs)/Warblade 4 as an option.

Full Bab (which opens up +6 Bab feats like improved two weapon fighting and snap kick), 3rd level maneuvers from the best disciplines, and 2 stances. Grab superior unarmed strike, snap kick, two weapon fighting, and buy a pair of gloves of the balanced hand. Enjoy your 6 attack full attack routine, complete with trips (and free attacks on said trips) and bonus damage (from punishing stance).

Actually City Brawler gets Two Weapon Fighting for free as long as he's unarmed, I think that's why I went the Barbarian line, these are really good suggestions though, I was thinking of throwing in Fighter 2 levels of it for Feats, though Throwing in levels of Warblade might be a good/better idea. Not sure how I'd run that in character though, as I'm a proto-creature. We'll see what I can finangle, I'm still only level 1, so Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem City Brawler Barbarian is definitely my first level. As always, I definitely appreciate all the help.

@JusticeZero- It wasn't originally about Crunch to be honest, it was more character flavor, then one of the other Playgrounders pointed out I'd have to be Good, and playing a standard monk I'd have to be Lawful, and a Lawful Good character does not work well in this party so, I scrappedusing a VOP Monk completely, turned to Swordsage, found it didn't do quite what I was hoping, then I said screw it and went Barbarian. Right now after racial mods etc I'm sitting at a 22Str and a 20 Con, so I think Barbarian will work just fine.

Is losing Uncanny Dodge worth Improved Trip? O_o I'm already looking at a low-ish AC.

[DarkSonic1337]

Warblade will pick you up uncanny dodge again...so yes!

Wall of Blades maneuver let's you make an attack miss by...making an opposed attack roll against it as an immediate action! AFTER you know the result of their attack! Saved my life countless times.

I cannot stress enough how important Warblade 4 is. That is the minimum number of levels you can take to be able to grab 3rd level maneuvers. There are quite a few juicy third level maneuvers.